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Gemprint?

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ungefar

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 16, 2003
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7
Recently, I was talking to a local jeweler about a stone that I was very interested in. I wanted to to know if the diamond was GIA certified. His answer was no, BUT that it had been gemprinted. Is this an alternative to GIA certification? Can I buy with confidence with the just a Gemprint? Thanks for your time.
 

Rank Amateur

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
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1,553
Gemprint is the equivalent of a diamond's fingerprint. If it's stolen (and recovered) you can prove that it really is your stone. It tells you almost nothing about the "quality" (i.e. 4 Cs) of the stone.

A gem lab (like GIA or AGS) will issue a certificate that gives you confidence that the color and clarity or the stone in question is being represented fairly by the vendor.
 

Rank Amateur

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 26, 2003
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1,553
BTW

The last stone I bought I had gemprinted, but I think it was a waste of money. A very small amount of money, but a waste just the same.

R/A
 

ungefar

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 16, 2003
Messages
7
I would feel better about having the stone GIA certified too. But when I asked the jeweler about getting the diamond certified, he told me I would be taking a chance. Because he would charge me MORE if the lab results said that the diamond was better than the grades of G and VS2 that it has now. Is this a sketchy pressure tactic or what?
 

Colored Gemstone Nut

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Nov 21, 2002
Messages
2,325

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On 2/28/2003 4:47:18 PM ungefar wrote:

Recently, I was talking to a local jeweler about a stone that I was very interested in. I wanted to to know if the diamond was GIA certified. His answer was no, BUT that it had been gemprinted. Is this an alternative to GIA certification? Can I buy with confidence with the just a Gemprint? Thanks for your time.

----------------
ungefar-Hey here is some info off their site:

Every diamond has its own visual signature. It's like a fingerprint - no two are alike
Gemprint uses a non-invasive low-powered laser to capture the unique sparkle pattern of each diamond and registers this image in its database.

This is by no means an alternative to getting your diamond certificated. GemPrint is ideal in the event that there is suspicion of a diamond being switched. It can then be scanned and the image that was originally taken can be compared to see if the stone has been switched. I believe it is important to have your stone certificated by a reputable lab GIA,EGL,AGS to name a few. If your jeweler expresses the stone is gemprinted, but doesn't have a certificate stating color/clarity/carat weight etc... I would be a little leary. Thats just me though. Why would someone go through the trouble of getting a diamond gemprinted but not graded through a reputable lab. It is also important to get or ask for sarin results on this stone and compare to other competitive market prices..Hope this helps a little...
Josh Rioux
Sitka, Alaska
 

Colored Gemstone Nut

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Nov 21, 2002
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2,325
I just posted and then read your reply. Definitely sketchy and something sounds very fishy my friend. Proceed with caution..
-Josh
 

Richard Sherwood

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 25, 2002
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4,924
-----------
But when I asked the jeweler about getting the
diamond certified, he told me I would be taking a
chance. Because he would charge me MORE if the lab
results said that the diamond was better than the
grades of G and VS2 that it has now.
-----------

Hahahahaha!!!

The chances are much more likely that the results would come in lower...

Ask him if he will charge you less in that case.
 

Colored Gemstone Nut

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Nov 21, 2002
Messages
2,325

----------------
On 2/28/2003 5
3:36 PM ungefar wrote:

Thanks for the advice, but what is a sarin test?

----------------
Sarin Results include measurements, table diameter, crown height % and angle, pavilion depth % and angle, girdle and culet. Stones are measured and then fall into certain cut grade categories by the dimensions of the measurements. Do a search on pricescope with the key words "sarin" or "megascope" and you will probably find all the info you would like to know dealing with your question.

josh rioux
Sitka, Alaska
 

niceice

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
1,792

----------------

Recently, I was talking to a local jeweler about a stone that I was very interested in. I wanted to to know if the diamond was GIA certified. His answer was no, BUT that it had been gemprinted. Is this an alternative to GIA certification? Can I buy with confidence with the just a Gemprint? Thanks for your time.

----------------

Boy, I bet that Gemprint would like to know who that jeweler is so that they can explain to him "again" what their machine actually does... The Gemprint machine has one purpose and only one purpose and that is to capture an image of the pattern of reflective points (slang term: "hot spots") which result from a single, low level, non-invasive, red laser beam being shined into the center of the stone through the table facet while the diamond is held in place by a diamond holder within a completely dark chamber.

We Gemprint every diamond that we bring in for evaluation and the Gemprint machine has proved to be invaluable in terms of assisting us with verifying the identity of diamonds in our inventory, especially when the characteristics of the diamonds are "very close"... We also use the machine to demonstrate to clients that they are receiving their diamond back at the time of pick-up by verifying the pattern of light return for them... We messed with the machine a lot when we first got it a few years ago to try and "trick it" but it really is quite accurate - unless of course the diamond has been re-cut or repolished in which case all bets are off...

The cost of having a diamond registered in the Gemprint International Database is quite reasonable and many of our clients elect to register their diamond with GP. However, we don't sell the service from a perspective of recovering their diamond in the event of loss because the reality is that in most cases it will be their insurance company that recovers the diamond in the event that it is recovered by a law enforcement agency because they will have paid out on the claim and thus are the new legal owners of the item... We sell GP on the premise that many of the major insurance companies offer their clients an annual 10% discount on the insurance premium for diamond (and gem) jewelry that has been registered with Gemprint... More often than not, the cost of the GP registration pays for itself within the first year in terms of savings...

Now that is what the GP does... Here is what it does not do... It does not "certify" anything... It does not measure the diamond... It does not grade the diamond for clarity... It does not grade the diamond for color... It can not determine fluoresence... It can not grade polish or symmetry... It simply captures a "constellation" like image of the pattern of light return for the diamond, th-th-th-that's all folks!
 

niceice

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
1,792

----------------
Thanks for the advice, but what is a sarin test?

----------------
A Sarin machine measures the diamond... So does an OGI MegaScope (our preferance)... Most lab reports will provide you with the "measurements" of the diamond - the minimum and maximum outside diameter and depth of the stone in millimeters, think of it as a measurement across the top of the stone from the North to South and East to West and then from the top of the table facet (top flat facet) straight down through the diamond to the bottom point (culet). And they will provide you with the table diameter and total depth measurements in percent and the girdle thickness (the edge of the diamond that separates the top and lower halves). What they usually do not provide are the crown angle and pavilion angle measurements and this is where the OGI or the Sarin become important for consumers because it enables them to know more about the diamond they are buying and what they can expect from it. The reports from these machines come in two formats, one is a simple avery type label which states the sum of the averages for each category which results from the measurements obtained from the five sections of the diamond - eight measurements per section... And a full report which discloses the high and low point of the measurements that the averages are based upon - the "real" full version of this report shows the information on a plot of the diamond facet-by-facet... Most of the internet dealers can provide you with this information if you ask for it, but a lot of retail jewelers will respond by rolling their eyes and beginning to foam at the mouth while jabbering uncontrollably "why do you need that? who told you about THAT? you've been educating yourself on the internet, haven't you?"

So why is all this really important? Well you can have an 0.84 carat diamond that measures 6.12 - 6.15 x 3.72 mm that can have a pattern of light return that looks like this:



Which is pretty good because as you can see there is very little light "leaking" out of the bottom or sides of the stone... Or you can have a diamond "just like it" that "really isn't" but just appears to be because the measurements for the total depth and table are the same, but the crown angle and pavilion angles are different and it might look like this:



Where approximately 12% of the light is leaking out through the bottom of the stone because the crown angle is too steep... Or like this:



Which has a very desireable crown angle of 34.5 degrees but a pavilion depth which is simply too deep and a girdle that is too thick... By the way, these images were created using DiamCalc 2.0 from Octonus and are mathimatical estimations of the potential pattern of light return that might result from these proportions... It's an excellent program, but everything is based on numbers and the results are only as accurate as the information provided... So if you're looking at a lab report for a diamond and it indicates that the total depth is 60.3% and the Sarin or OGI results indicate that the total depth is 60.4% you're probably okay (assuming that all of the other measurements are also within a reasonable range of being comparable) but if the Sarin / OGI results indicate that the total depth is 60.9% or something just as off, ask for the diamond to be measured again because the diamond or the platform probably was dirty at the time the diamond was first measured...

And do yourself one more favor ungefar, buy yourself a diamond that has been graded by either the GIA, AGS, or HRD laboratories... Everything else isn't accurate, especially the in-house grading of this yo-yo jeweler that you've found...
 

barry

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Mar 21, 2001
Messages
441
Gemprint is an excellent and valuable
accessory but absolutely no substitute for
certification.

I would insist on either GIA or AGS certification
on this diamond,or another 'comparable' diamond
with such. If your jeweler doesn't want to accomodate you,
walk.

Barry
www.superbcert.com
 
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