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Follow up to GOG and ERD visits (thanks lorelei, jstar, etc)

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Chris1977

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Jan 26, 2009
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Thanks to everyone who has replied to help me in my previous posts particularly lorelei, jstarfireb, JulieN, and Stone-cold 11.

Last week I had the priveledge of visiting Good Old Gold and Engagement Rings Direct and it was a great experience at both places. First, thanls lorelei for recommending the pizza place next to GOG--it was great and we don''t take our pizza lightly in NY/NJ area.


At GOG I met with Charles. He was very informative and the presentation is second to none. From microscopic images linked directly to LCD TVs and Brillantscope and ASET images I can''t image what more one would what to see before purchasing a diamond.

At ERD I met with Mark who was also extremely informative and had several diamonds matchinig my budget criteria with varying color/clarity/carat and very competitive pricing.

I''d first like to say I was instilled with extreme confidence in both of these sellers. Both seem extremely honest. Both have good return/buy-back/upgrade policies which gives me (the first time buyer) piece of mind. Overall ERD seems to have a larger inventory with great pricing while GOG had a more exculsive selection of premium diamonds for which they ask a premium price (fair enough considering the extra criteria used in selection).

A few of my favorites:

Princess 1.28 H VS1 GIA EX/EX 6.20x5.93x4.28 Table: 71% Depth: 72.2% Flour: None $5450
Princess 1.20 I VS1 AGS 000 5.74x5.89x4.33 Table:62.9% Depth: 75.5% Flour: None $6050

I have noticed that there seems to be a variation in the number of cuts in the diamonds I have been looking at. These vary from 3-5 chevrons(I think that is the right term) when viewed from the pavillion view of the GIA report and the side view of the AGS report. Does anyone have any input on this? Is one more desirable/valuable/refelctive of light?

Thanks all,

Chris
 

oldminer

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More chevrons increase the potential number of sparkles and reflections except that because there are "more" these sparkles and reflections may look smaller in size. You have to pick the "look" you prefer or possibly you won''t even be able to have a favorite based on the small difference this makes.
 

mryan

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i think GOG had a video that showed a 2 chevron and the difference between 3-4. both looked great b/c they all were great cuts. 2 was a chunkier sparkle which I personally kind of liked more.
 

Chris1977

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Thanks Dave and mryan for the info.

I watched the video on the Good Old Gold site.

Appreciate your help

Chris
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Date: 2/2/2009 10:13:30 PM
Author: oldminer
More chevrons increase the potential number of sparkles and reflections except that because there are ''more'' these sparkles and reflections may look smaller in size. You have to pick the ''look'' you prefer or possibly you won''t even be able to have a favorite based on the small difference this makes.
I have to correct this statement slightly.

More chevrons divide the surface area of a diamond into more virtual facets. For seasoned professionals, who too often look at stones in diffuse lighting only, more virtual facets often means more potential sparkles and reflections. Sparkles and reflections however are only interesting if they are directed towards the observer. And having more just makes it more difficult and unlikely to have them all direct properly.

What is sure, with the same surface area, and more virtual facets, these virtual facets WILL be smaller.

Depending on the skills and focus of the cutter, he may have taken care of directing light properly, even with more facets. In that case, the choice is in some way a matter of personal preference. It is definitely worth comparing, though, since the difference is HUGE.

Live long,
 

Chris1977

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Ok so I''ve viewed the GOG video and read the linked blog. Here''s my understanding:

1. Increased number of chevrons will decrease the size of the returned light flash and increase the number of flashes assuming it is well cut.
2. There doesn''t seem to be a universally accepted standard it''s often personal preference
3. Increased number of chevrons may make it more difficult to earn GIA EX/EX or AGS ideal ratings
4. There seems to be no price premium for any number of chevrons.

For what it''s worth the stones I listed above:
The GIA EX/EX has 4 chevrons
The AGS 000 has 2 chevrons

Paul in the link you mention some info about depth of princesses and corner main angles. If you could elaborate a little for me I would greatly appreciate.

Thanks

Chris
 

jstarfireb

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Mar 24, 2007
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Thanks for the compliments Chris!

To give you more examples of what 2- and 3-chevron princesses look like (beyond the excellent video from GOG)...Whiteflash's ACA princesses are 3-chevron stones and Infinity princesses are 2-chevron stones. (Sorry if I'm repeating myself; I'm having some deja vu in typing this and may have told you this before!)

I personally prefer a 3-chevron princess because I want my princess to look more like a princess...little tiny sparkles of pinfire. (ETA: But the preference isn't all that strong...I could be swayed with a stunning 2-chevron stone.)

There's a thread somewhere around here about someone who was deciding between WF ACA, Infinity, and Jared Peerless princesses. He preferred the "cleaner" facets of the Infinity, and my guess is that it has to do with the chevrons and facet patterning. He thought the ACA looked too busy or too crushed-ice.

I'll see if I can dig up the thread in the next few min.
 

Rhino

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Not to confuse the issue but you can also have 2 princess cut diamonds, both be AGS Ideal, both be 2 chevrons and yet differ in their appearance and the nature upon which they reflect back light to the viewer both in way of virtual facets and actual reflections of light. I"m not at my work computer at this moment but I could show you virtual models of each, upon which you''ll see the "virtual" differences via the Gem Advisor models. I''ll try to remember posting the .gem files here tomorror if you''d like to see what I''m talking about. The 2 chevroned princess you saw at our store may not have the same appearance as one in a reference video I have on our site that I published back a while ago which is what I believe mryan in this thread referenced.

Peace,
 

Paul-Antwerp

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Date: 2/3/2009 8:21:22 PM
Author: Chris1977
Ok so I''ve viewed the GOG video and read the linked blog. Here''s my understanding:

1. Increased number of chevrons will decrease the size of the returned light flash and increase the number of flashes assuming it is well cut.
2. There doesn''t seem to be a universally accepted standard it''s often personal preference
3. Increased number of chevrons may make it more difficult to earn GIA EX/EX or AGS ideal ratings
4. There seems to be no price premium for any number of chevrons.

For what it''s worth the stones I listed above:
The GIA EX/EX has 4 chevrons
The AGS 000 has 2 chevrons

Paul in the link you mention some info about depth of princesses and corner main angles. If you could elaborate a little for me I would greatly appreciate.

Thanks

Chris
Hi Chris,

As for your understanding, you seem to understand the basics. The difficulty of more chevrons is that the flash might become too small to be observed as fire (colored).

Indeed, there is no standard, and one can regularly find princess-cuts with varying number of chevrons within the same stone, say 3 at one side and 4 at the remaining three sides.

Increased number of chevrons theoretically has no impact on the lab grade. So, it is not more difficult to reach a specific lab-grade. For some reason, I think that it is easier to obtain AGS-0 with more chevron-facets. That is probably due to the fact that AGS only accounts for brightness and fire in its metric, and not for scintillation. More chevrons probably give you more leeway to reach the minimum level of brightness for AGS-0. But scintillation, where the number of facets has the highest impact, is not yet a part of the AGS-metric (other labs do not even touch fancy shapes at all yet).

Price-wise, no effect by the number of chevrons, indeed. The difference is in looks, performance, and you need to see that in person.

It is amazing that Lorelei points you to a discussion of end 2006, with such great info. Kudos to her for that. I must say that I have learned more about this subjec in the meantime. Where I describe the main difference in 2006 as a taste-factor, I would now say that there is a definite performance-factor. Depending on the size of the stone, less facets produce bigger virtual facets and bigger flashes, and this improves the level of scintillation and of observed fire dramatically.

The matter of depth in a princess-cut is a classic problem. Do first read this article of 2005 first: link

The observation is that there is no relationship between spread and depth in a princess-cut. However, the trade has developed a measure over the years in which a depth higher than 75% is considered unacceptable. Part of this may be due to the AGA-charts, which you can also find in the education-section of Pricescope. Now, however, the research of AGS has given us a lot of new insight, and from my own research, I know that the best performing combos happen to have a depth clearly above 75%. Most cutters however, faced with the industry''s old rules, do not dare to cut with such depths. And, even now in 2009, we regularly need to correct seasoned professionals that they should not equate depth to spread.

As for your two stones, could you confirm that the AGS-graded stone has 2 chevron-lines. I would be surprised.

Live long,
 

Chris1977

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jan 26, 2009
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13
Thanks everyone for all the additional advice.

Paul, I read the series of articles--very imformative. Thanks.

The AGS 0 stone does have two Chevrons (which means 3 lines from side of girdle to cutlet if i understand correctly) Here''s the link. http://www.goodoldgold.com/diamond/5472/
The GIA EX/EX has 4 Chevrons (5 lines from girdle to cutlet).

I guess my own personal opinion as I was viewing these leaned toward stones with more chevrons but in fairness as I did not even know what a chevron was when I viewed these stones and was probably drawn to the additional number of sparkles when viewed from a close distance. I probably didn''t notice that the additonal sparkles were smaller when viewed by my untrained eye.

If I choose to purchase the GIA stone I will definately be bringing it to someone for cut/light assessment before getting it set. What tests would be essential Sarin/ASET/Brillantscope?

Is a 1.28 carat with 4 chevrons overkill?

Chris
 

JulieN

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I''m sure they are both very nice, so it''s "personal" whether 4 chevrons is too much.
 

Lorelei

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Date: 2/4/2009 10:47:28 PM
Author: JulieN
I''m sure they are both very nice, so it''s ''personal'' whether 4 chevrons is too much.
Ditto,

And thank you Paul, that was a good thread and one I marked mentally for future reference.
 
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