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Fluorescence- Pros and Cons

dep4htc

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HI-
Recently I have been pricing GIA diamond in the 2-2.6 carat range. The colors I have been looking at are from E through H. The best priced of these stones have strong blue fluorescence or very strong blue fluorescence. I know people always talk about having fluorescence to improve the face up of stones like J color but do they actually hurt whiter stones like E and G? Thanks for reading and any comments you might offer. :|
 

Texas Leaguer

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dep4htc|1425509004|3841946 said:
HI-
Recently I have been pricing GIA diamond in the 2-2.6 carat range. The colors I have been looking at are from E through H. The best priced of these stones have strong blue fluorescence or very strong blue fluorescence. I know people always talk about having fluorescence to improve the face up of stones like J color but do they actually hurt whiter stones like E and G? Thanks for reading and any comments you might offer. :|
Fluorescence is a very important thing to understand and to factor into your decision making. As you note, prices of strong or very strong fluorescent diamonds are often significantly less than non-fluoro stones. There are reasons for this.

There has been much discussion about fluorescence on the site lately. You will get mixed opinions as there are some folks that love the effect. You can see a synopsis of my views on the topic in the first thread:
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/forum/post3840249.html#p3840249']https://www.pricescope.com/forum/post3840249.html#p3840249[/URL]

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/wish-i-would-have-discovered-ps-sooner.210551/#post-3831914#p3831914']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/wish-i-would-have-discovered-ps-sooner.210551/#post-3831914#p3831914[/URL]
 

diamondseeker2006

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Good article here on PS, also:

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-flourescence

I am one that loves fluorescence and would add it to all my diamonds if I could! But what it takes is buying from a vendor who can screen the stone for you for any negative effects. I didn't read back through that thread, but strong fluorescence and low clarity can sometimes be a bad combination.
 

denverappraiser

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Pro:
It's cool at the disco.
They're cheaper. Sometimes by quite a bit.
Blue fluro can mask yellow body color in UV rich environments.

Cons:
It's unpopular.
They're harder to sell (because it's unpopular and some see it as a defect).
There's a minor risk of a hazy appearance in UV rich environments, most notably direct sunlight.

Neutral:
98% of the time it has no visible effect.
100% of the time it has no visible effect in non-UV lighting.
 

Dancing Fire

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Some people love it some don't. here is a indoor/outdoor under the sun pic of my VSB fluor Octavia along with my wife's no fluor ring. I don't mind with or w/o the blue fluor as long as I love the stone.

img_7284.jpg

img_7285.jpg

img_7286.jpg

img_7287.jpg
 

Rockdiamond

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HI dep4htc,
Fluorescence is an aspect that has a black and white effect on pricing - lowering the price of D-G stones- but in real life looking at diamonds, it's anything but a consistent characteristic. Sometimes benign, sometimes detrimental, sometimes beneficial.
My sweet spot high white in color/clarity/value/ would be D-F color, eye clean SI2, with nice blue fluorescence.
In the best of cases, such a stone will be super white to the eye, and trade at a fraction the price of a VS2 of the same color, no blue.

In colors H-K....even some best case L and M color strong blue can look pretty white- even in room lighting.

But there are a percentage of MB, and higher percentage of SB stones that exhibit a milkiness- visible in any lighting- that really kills the life of the stone.
Some show virtually no effects unless you look at them in the dark with UV.
So visual physical examination is a must.
As is a money back guarantee for you.
You will need to see this to understand if you love it.
Like DiamondSeeker , I love best case fluorescence in colorless diamonds.


About the whole issue of value:
Say three consumers need to sell their diamond- assume all are same color clarity.
Seller one has a XXX/000 no blue 1.00ct and paid $8000
Seller two has a XXX/000 SB 1.25 and paid $8000
Seller three has a VG cut grade SB 1.50 paid $8000

Seller two probably may or may not have a harder time recovering the money than seller one- but maybe seller three has the easiest time selling.
Point is- if a buyer gets the value aspect of the MB/SB at time of purchase and pays less, there's less to recover in the event of a re-sale.
 

denverappraiser

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Since we’re talking about future resale values, it may be worth nothing that these things change and that value is not a gemological property. A few decades ago, a ‘blue/white’ diamond was the best there was. That’s talking about fluro, and it was seen as a feature, not a problem. It cost extra. The current fashion against it mostly started with the new dynamic of buying diamonds online based purely on grading reports. There are only about 10 data points on a GIA report and folks quite reasonably want to make use of every one of them. This gets discussed a great deal in forums like this one and the various tutorials all over the internet. The business of VSB’s maybe having a problem leads Internet shoppers to simply avoid them entirely. There’s plenty to choose from without stressing over fluorescence. Prices drop. Customers then avoid them because that’s obviously a defect because prices are down. Prices drop more and also on SB’s and even M’s.

I mention this because none of this is carved in stone and it’s anybody’s guess what fashion trends will be in the future. No one knows what your grandkids will like but it’s nearly certain that will no more be the same as what you like as your own taste matches that of your grandparents.
 

Texas Leaguer

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JoshuaNiamehr|1425513424|3841976 said:
I particularly like GIA's statistical approach to explaining fluoresence found here: http://4csblog.gia.edu/2012/understanding-diamond-fluorescence

Hope this helps!
There is good basic information in that article. One would expect no less from GIA. However, it is far from a complete discussion of this characteristic from a prospective buyer's standpoint.

There is no mention of the over-grading of color issue (for obvious reasons), and even more bottom-line for a consumer, there is no discussion of liquidity issues. While GIA rarely talks in specifics about values and with good reason, it is an important consideration for many consumers, and altogether missing from that piece.

Almost every customer I have shown diamonds to over my career, at some point in the conversation asks some question that indicates an interest in whether a diamond is a good "investment". While that kind of question deserves a different discussion altogether, it does indicate that at least one factor in their decision making process is oriented around future value.

This is why I think the discussions we tend to have around fluorescence on this forum (and elsewhere) are often lacking on this important matter.

It is hard to think of another factor that can reduce the value of an otherwise perfectly fine quality diamond by such a large amount.
 

Dancing Fire

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[quote="Texas Leaguer|

Almost every customer I have shown diamonds to over my career, at some point in the conversation asks some question that indicates an interest in whether a diamond is a good "investment". While that kind of question deserves a different discussion altogether, it does indicate that at least one factor in their decision making process is oriented around future value.

This is why I think the discussions we tend to have around fluorescence on this forum (and elsewhere) are often lacking on this important matter.

It is hard to think of another factor that can reduce the value of an otherwise perfectly fine quality diamond by such a large amount.[/quote]



The correct answer is "no" with or w/o fluor.
 

Dancing Fire

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BGD's upgrade policy from a blue fluor stone to a non fluor H&A stone...

We also offer a Lifetime Upgrade Policy on Brian Gavin Blue diamonds. This does not apply to jewelry that contains diamonds.
When upgrading to another Brian Gavin Blue Stone apply the original purchase price (less shipping) towards your upgrade and pay the difference.
When upgrading to a Brian Gavin Signature Hearts and Arrows diamond, apply 95% of the original purchase price (less shipping) and pay the difference.
 

Texas Leaguer

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Dancing Fire|1425519227|3842018 said:
[quote="Texas Leaguer|

Almost every customer I have shown diamonds to over my career, at some point in the conversation asks some question that indicates an interest in whether a diamond is a good "investment". While that kind of question deserves a different discussion altogether, it does indicate that at least one factor in their decision making process is oriented around future value.

This is why I think the discussions we tend to have around fluorescence on this forum (and elsewhere) are often lacking on this important matter.

It is hard to think of another factor that can reduce the value of an otherwise perfectly fine quality diamond by such a large amount.

The correct answer is "no" with or w/o fluor.[/quote]

I agree with you there almost entirely DF. And that's what I meant by the "investment" question requiring a different discussion apart from any particular characteristic. The point is that future value is something at least partially on the mind of most buyers. So not to talk about that aspect of fluorescence is, in general, a disservice to a great many shoppers.

I too think fluorescence is a cool trait. And I would buy one myself under the right circumstances. In fact, you will notice in the Michael Cowing study that the recommendation they make for fixing the color grading problem is designed to correct the penalty that fluorescent diamonds are experiencing under the current circumstances.
 

Rockdiamond

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Texas Leaguer|1425518605|3842012 said:
JoshuaNiamehr|1425513424|3841976 said:
I particularly like GIA's statistical approach to explaining fluoresence found here: http://4csblog.gia.edu/2012/understanding-diamond-fluorescence

Hope this helps!
There is good basic information in that article. One would expect no less from GIA. However, it is far from a complete discussion of this characteristic from a prospective buyer's standpoint.

There is no mention of the over-grading of color issue (for obvious reasons), and even more bottom-line for a consumer, there is no discussion of liquidity issues. While GIA rarely talks in specifics about values and with good reason, it is an important consideration for many consumers, and altogether missing from that piece.

Almost every customer I have shown diamonds to over my career, at some point in the conversation asks some question that indicates an interest in whether a diamond is a good "investment". While that kind of question deserves a different discussion altogether, it does indicate that at least one factor in their decision making process is oriented around future value.

This is why I think the discussions we tend to have around fluorescence on this forum (and elsewhere) are often lacking on this important matter.

It is hard to think of another factor that can reduce the value of an otherwise perfectly fine quality diamond by such a large amount.

Eye clean SI2 versus eye clean IF
VG Cut grade with minor polish or other issues causing downgrade versus EX or 000 cut grade.
Both of those aspects can result in two perfectly fine diamonds which are virtually identical visually, yet having massive differences in price- and value.
 

Texas Leaguer

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Rockdiamond|1425522329|3842037 said:
Texas Leaguer|1425518605|3842012 said:
JoshuaNiamehr|1425513424|3841976 said:
I particularly like GIA's statistical approach to explaining fluoresence found here: http://4csblog.gia.edu/2012/understanding-diamond-fluorescence

Hope this helps!
There is good basic information in that article. One would expect no less from GIA. However, it is far from a complete discussion of this characteristic from a prospective buyer's standpoint.

There is no mention of the over-grading of color issue (for obvious reasons), and even more bottom-line for a consumer, there is no discussion of liquidity issues. While GIA rarely talks in specifics about values and with good reason, it is an important consideration for many consumers, and altogether missing from that piece.

Almost every customer I have shown diamonds to over my career, at some point in the conversation asks some question that indicates an interest in whether a diamond is a good "investment". While that kind of question deserves a different discussion altogether, it does indicate that at least one factor in their decision making process is oriented around future value.

This is why I think the discussions we tend to have around fluorescence on this forum (and elsewhere) are often lacking on this important matter.

It is hard to think of another factor that can reduce the value of an otherwise perfectly fine quality diamond by such a large amount.

Eye clean SI2 versus eye clean IF
VG Cut grade with minor polish or other issues causing downgrade versus EX or 000 cut grade.
Both of those aspects can result in two perfectly fine diamonds which are virtually identical visually, yet having massive differences in price- and value.
Yes, and a 2 ct of either of your examples would result in a massive difference in price over a 1ct. You have misconstrued my statement.

Take two 1.00 ct F VS1 ideal cut rounds, one has strong fluorescence and the other has none. There is no other characteristic that might be noted on a lab report that would have anywhere near the impact on value as the fluro has.

That is the essence of why it is important for a prospective buyer to be fully informed about the trait. It might be perfectly fine, they may love the effect, they may be getting a very competitive price, it may not be milky, the diamond may be accurately graded for color,they may have no intention of ever selling or trading the stone.

As long as the buyer is properly informed they will make the right choice. If they are not fully informed they may make a decision they otherwise would not have.
 

Rockdiamond

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You are correct, I did misconstrue your statement.
We agree Bryan.
 

Texas Leaguer

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Rockdiamond|1425525523|3842062 said:
You are correct, I did misconstrue your statement.
We agree Bryan.

That doesn't happen every day David. The stars must be aligned :twirl:

Just kidding!
 

Rockdiamond

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Texas Leaguer|1425573217|3842268 said:
Rockdiamond|1425525523|3842062 said:
You are correct, I did misconstrue your statement.
We agree Bryan.

That doesn't happen every day David. The stars must be aligned :twirl:

Just kidding!

I honestly believe we see many more things n the same light Bryan- there's definitely some disagreement on some of the fine points- but in a "big picture" sense, we share many vital core values.
 

Dancing Fire

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Texas Leaguer|1425573217|3842268 said:
Rockdiamond|1425525523|3842062 said:
You are correct, I did misconstrue your statement.
We agree Bryan.

That doesn't happen every day David. The stars must be aligned :twirl:

Just kidding!
Yes, Mar. 5th is full moon.. :wink2:
 

Texas Leaguer

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Rockdiamond|1425583601|3842345 said:
Texas Leaguer|1425573217|3842268 said:
Rockdiamond|1425525523|3842062 said:
You are correct, I did misconstrue your statement.
We agree Bryan.

That doesn't happen every day David. The stars must be aligned :twirl:

Just kidding!

I honestly believe we see many more things n the same light Bryan- there's definitely some disagreement on some of the fine points- but in a "big picture" sense, we share many vital core values.
I think you're right David. Let's hold that thought for our next encounter. :saint:
 
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