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Wish I would have discovered PS sooner

ag2prcntr

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Feb 9, 2015
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This is my first post, I really wish I would have discovered PS sooner. I recently just purchased a ring from BN and starting to think I made a mistake (will receive this Friday). First here is the diamond.

https://enchanteddiamonds.com/diamonds/view/R131-PJWTLG

Yes, I purchased through BN but just realized that same diamond was on Enchanted Diamonds. Well my concerns are the following:

1. Should have I went for a J color diamond? This is going on a setting with Pave diamonds. This one to be exact (http://www.bluenile.com/build-your-own-ring/scalloped-pave-diamond-engagement-ring-platinum_33601)
2. Looking from the image, it appears to be eye clean, can you more experienced members let me know if you're seeing something else?

Thank you in advance!
 

diamondseeker2006

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The diamond looks like a very nice stone! The color is something only you can decide if you like. The stones in the ring are probably going to appear whiter since they are small and H color. I really think you'll have to see it to know if you like the color. The cut is nice and that will be a plus!
 

lxAsTrOxl

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Your diamond is a J but also comes with a medium blue florescence, which will more than likely work in your favor and make the diamond appear whiter than it is in natural lighting.

Outside of that, the diamond is very nice.

And yes ED has way better prices on the same diamonds when compared to sites like BN, JA etc. You could try returning it to BN and when it goes back up into the supplier inventory try to see if you can purchase it from ED instead, not sure if BN price matches but i'd double check that, might save a lot of time.
 

lknvrb4

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Did you speak with ED and ask them how the diamond looks in the sunlight in regards to it turning milky or hazy? It does look like a really nice diamond though.
 

Paul-Antwerp

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lxAsTrOxl|1423632876|3830712 said:
Your diamond is a J but also comes with a medium blue florescence, which will more than likely work in your favor and make the diamond appear whiter than it is in natural lighting.

Granted, recent grading experience with GIA shows that most stones they grade as Medium are actually Strong or Very Strong. Still, most important is that the 'automatic' connection of the presence of fluorescence making a diamond appear whiter is not correct. It does, but not in all cases, so it should not be conveyed as a sure advantage.

Live long,
 

JoshuaNiamehr

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Hi Paul,

Curious to know where the information regarding strength of fluorescence and the GIA is coming from?

I do agree its not automatic but in daylight it *usually* does help the diamond face up whiter than diamonds without.

Joshua
 

Paul-Antwerp

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From checking hundreds of diamonds weekly. This shows a clear pattern in fluorescence-grading having become more loose lately.

And buyers know it, as wholesale market-price for Medium has gone down. Even the price-level of Faint is being affected.

Live long,
 

ag2prcntr

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Feb 9, 2015
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Hi All -

Thanks for all the feedback, I really got lucky selecting the diamond since I ordered it before I discovered PriceScope and Enchanted Diamond. After finding this site I was relieved to find that the diamond I selected had a good HCA score and a 100% ED Score and ED had an image of it which I could not get from BN right away so that helped alleviate my eye clean concern. Hence my question about color.

I actually received the diamond ring this morning and I'm relieved to find that I don't even notice the color as the diamond has so much fire that distracts from it. The only time I notice the color is when I take pics of the ring. What I took away from this experience was that the cut of the diamond is most important as it can possibly negate anything else.

Here are the pics, as mentioned, the pics display color more so than my eye does, perhaps I'm not as color sensitive...

img_5915_0.jpg
img_5917.jpg
img_5918.jpg
img_5922.jpg
img_5919.jpg

Now I know where to send friends to if they have questions about diamonds and engagement rings. THANKS EVERYONE!!! This site is awesome!
 

motownmama

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Pretty ring!
 

Madison2

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This diamond ring is very pretty.
I think the center diamond looks great. Do you like it?
 

pfunk

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Looks GREAT!!
 

ag2prcntr

Rough_Rock
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Feb 9, 2015
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I love it...but will really find out on Friday when I ask her :) I'll let you know if she likes it...

Thanks all!! What I will say is that it's so interesting researching all the different aspects of a diamond. If I had more funds I think a great hobby would be trying to find the diamond's in the rough <--- you see what I did there :) I know it's probably been used way too many times.

Will let you all know Friday!!!
 

Madison2

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Glad you love it and she probably will too!
Please come back with hand shots and good luck with the proposal :D
 

motownmama

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Just in time for Valentine's Day - cool!
 

Texas Leaguer

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JoshuaNiamehr|1423660869|3830794 said:
Hi Paul,

Curious to know where the information regarding strength of fluorescence and the GIA is coming from?

I do agree its not automatic but in daylight it *usually* does help the diamond face up whiter than diamonds without.

Joshua
Paul-Antwerp|1423661230|3830796 said:
From checking hundreds of diamonds weekly. This shows a clear pattern in fluorescence-grading having become more loose lately.

And buyers know it, as wholesale market-price for Medium has gone down. Even the price-level of Faint is being affected.

Live long,
Paul, I cannot say from my experience if GIA has changed their reporting of fluorescent stones in the direction you suggest. I will defer to you as a manufacturer looking at a large sample size of diamonds. However, they have in modern times quietly changed the way they color grade in that they use tube lights that contain fluorescent wavelengths. From the earliest days the GIA maintained that color grading must be done in a UV free environment to avoid grading inaccuracy.

Joshua, I agree with you that direct sunlight usually will make a flurorescent diamond appear whiter. The masking effect is real. However, the new science demonstrates that there is no effect in normal indoor viewing environments, even if UV is present in the light source. For the diamond to fluouresce in artificial light it must be within inches of the light source.

The troubling reality is that in color grading practice today the labs are using uv and they are grading color at very close range where the masking effect can be activated, thereby leading to potential over-grading of color.

I think these two related issues and a growing awareness of them among the trade and to some extent the consumer market, is why we see fluorescence increasing devalued.

This is not the place for a full discussion but I have seen more and more threads popping up on fluorescence. The guidance generally given here is very simplistic and does not take into account some of the new science on the subject. It's probably time that someone start a new thread for a full discussion.
 

denverappraiser

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Fluorescence of late is getting a bad rap in the industry.

In a non-UV environment it has no affect. Zero. Zip. Nada.

Standard incandescent lights have zero UV component.
Standard halogen lights have zero UV component.
Standard LED lights have zero UV component.
Even standard fluorescent bulbs have zero UV component more than a few inches from the tube.
Sunlight filtered through standard window glass has a negligible UV component.
Sunlight filtered through clouds has a negligible UV component.
Shaded sunlight has near zero UV component.

That's the normal viewing environment for most people something like 99% of the time. When they encounter UV is at the disco, the tanning salon, the sterilization room, and in direct unclouded sunlight. That means the beach and on mountaintops. Even THAT is suspect and may actually be seen as a feature more than a problem.

That said, dealers find fluorescent stones difficult to sell. That's why they trade at a discount. People want to buy stones off of lab papers. Those papers only have 10 or so line items of data, one of which is fluorescence. The Internet is full of warnings about it. In competitive sales presentations, it comes up nearly every time. If you're starting with 10,000 reports and are trying to filter it down to just one, it's easy to simply rule out the ones with fluoro because they MIGHT have a problem. It's ok to buy what you like and this is definitely a 'mind clean' sort of issue but, realistically, the difference between faint and medium is a non-starter if the subject is how the stone will look when worn.
 

Texas Leaguer

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denverappraiser|1423753782|3831332 said:
Fluorescence of late is getting a bad rap in the industry.

In a non-UV environment it has no affect. Zero. Zip. Nada.

Standard incandescent lights have zero UV component.
Standard halogen lights have zero UV component.
Standard LED lights have zero UV component.
Even standard fluorescent bulbs have zero UV component more than a few inches from the tube.
Sunlight filtered through standard window glass has a negligible UV component.
Sunlight filtered through clouds has a negligible UV component.
Shaded sunlight has near zero UV component.

That's the normal viewing environment for most people something like 99% of the time. When they encounter UV is at the disco, the tanning salon, the sterilization room, and in direct unclouded sunlight. That means the beach and on mountaintops. Even THAT is suspect and may actually be seen as a feature more than a problem.

That said, dealers find fluorescent stones difficult to sell. That's why they trade at a discount. People want to buy stones off of lab papers. Those papers only have 10 or so line items of data, one of which is fluorescence. The Internet is full of warnings about it. In competitive sales presentations, it comes up nearly every time. If you're starting with 10,000 reports and are trying to filter it down to just one, it's easy to simply rule out the ones with fluoro because they MIGHT have a problem. It's ok to buy what you like and this is definitely a 'mind clean' sort of issue but, realistically, the difference between faint and medium is a non-starter if the subject is how the stone will look when worn.
Neil,
I agree with your list of scenarios where fluourescence is not activated - most normal real world viewing environments. It is widely reported that milkiness caused by fluorescence is rare. If you subscribe to that view, then you don't worry about it too much, and presumably it will be obvious if it is a factor. But we commonly see the advice given here that fluorescence is a benefit because it makes stones look whiter. From a consumer benefit standpoint that belief seems to be squarely in the category of urban myth, based upon the list you put together above.

By the way, your assessment is also confirmed by this eye-opening study on the over grading of color of fluorescent diamonds.
http://www.acagemlab.com/temp/CowingOvergrading.pdf

I believe it is the information developed by this research that is playing a part in the increasing devaluation of fluorescent diamonds in the market today. If the idea of consumer benefit for aparent color is refuted, and you add the possibility that the diamond was over-graded for color at the lab to begin with, it stands to reason that such stones would be severely penalized by the market.
 

ag2prcntr

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Interesting conversation...I'll say this... I've been looking around at other diamonds (even though I already have the ring I'm going to propose with) in the event my soon to be FI says, I want bigger :-/. As a normal consumer that knows very little, I am under the impression that getting an H,I, or J is OK if you have Strong to Medium Flour. I actually filter out diamonds with NO or FAINT flour. I saw this as an advantage since the price seems to be lower with flour and increasingly lower the more flour is present.

Are you saying that I shouldn't be doing that?

Another thing I noticed, I don't like looking at the diamond under full sunlight because it looks dark. The best sparkle I've noticed is when I'm out in full sunlight and I shield the diamond with my hand. Is that typical?
 

Texas Leaguer

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ag2prcntr|1423763551|3831426 said:
Interesting conversation...I'll say this... I've been looking around at other diamonds (even though I already have the ring I'm going to propose with) in the event my soon to be FI says, I want bigger :-/. As a normal consumer that knows very little, I am under the impression that getting an H,I, or J is OK if you have Strong to Medium Flour. I actually filter out diamonds with NO or FAINT flour. I saw this as an advantage since the price seems to be lower with flour and increasingly lower the more flour is present.

Are you saying that I shouldn't be doing that?

Another thing I noticed, I don't like looking at the diamond under full sunlight because it looks dark. The best sparkle I've noticed is when I'm out in full sunlight and I shield the diamond with my hand. Is that typical?
I think the impression you got about how you should be factoring in fluorescence into your buying equation is similar to what many consumers have about the issue. I think that tends to be more prevalent here for some reason.

What I am saying is the issue is more complex and reality is not necessarily in line with popular belief. I think the fact that this characteristic has such a profound effect on the value of diamonds that would otherwise have solid trading potential makes it incumbent upon consumers to learn more about the subject if they are considering a fluorescent diamond.

You want to make sure you have accurate and balanced information about the pros and cons, and that any particular diamond fits well into your individual decision making matrix, including the preferences of the recipient.
 

denverappraiser

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Full sunlight is a terrible viewing environment for diamonds but it has more to do with your eyes than diamonds. In very bright light, your eyes contract and that changes the way your brain perceives the individual sparkles. The result is yes, it tends to make stones look dark. I brought it up because for nearly everybody, that's the ONLY UV rich environment they get into.
 

ag2prcntr

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You guys "rock"! :hand:
 

akoya

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ag2prcntr
what is the color of the melee?
i have a color ard same range so i am wondering if i can match with F melee... :eh: Thanks

since mine comes with v strong blue flur.... i can spot a bit of yellowish under my home lights (LED, mixed of daylight n warm)...
in the morning, besides the window, sunny tropical sun and it looks white. maybe a tiny bit of blue @ certain angles. no cloudy though because i can see the arrows on the diamond.

bring the same diamond to a shop and ... their lights appeared to be white (not really the typical yellow spotlights) but the diamond looks scary yellow by the side and a more tint of yellow @ the top. :silenced:

its a AGS cert though so i have no idea if AGS color VS GIA color is of the same "color" they are talking about
if the stone is loosely certified because of the fluro, it really will mean overpaying for the diamond if fluro is being taken into account.
 

Texas Leaguer

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akoya|1423825952|3831779 said:
ag2prcntr
what is the color of the melee?
i have a color ard same range so i am wondering if i can match with F melee... :eh: Thanks

since mine comes with v strong blue flur.... i can spot a bit of yellowish under my home lights (LED, mixed of daylight n warm)...
in the morning, besides the window, sunny tropical sun and it looks white. maybe a tiny bit of blue @ certain angles. no cloudy though because i can see the arrows on the diamond.

bring the same diamond to a shop and ... their lights appeared to be white (not really the typical yellow spotlights) but the diamond looks scary yellow by the side and a more tint of yellow @ the top. :silenced:

its a AGS cert though so i have no idea if AGS color VS GIA color is of the same "color" they are talking about
if the stone is loosely certified because of the fluro, it really will mean overpaying for the diamond if fluro is being taken into account.
Yes, your conclusion is accurate based upon the research study I sited earlier. Aparently all the major labs today are color grading in a similar lighting environment that can potentially activate fluorescence and its color masking effect. Therefore it becomes an open question whether any particular diamond has been over-graded.

And as you mention, if the diamond is overgraded then it's true body color is actually lower than what is indicated on the report. It will therefore look worse than expected in many if not most indoor lighting environments. The savings then in the discounted price is really not a savings at all. And the benefit assumed to be gained in appearance by virtue of the fluorescence is not experienced in a majority of lighting environments.
 

Madison2

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So, did she say yes, and how does she like the ring?
Please share hand shots.
 

tyty333

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ag2prcntr

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Thank you! She couldn't believe that the diamond was a J color, we had been looking and G and H color diamonds at B&M (I'm the one that noticed that J color diamonds didn't look any different as long as the cut was excellent) so when I told her it was a J she was shocked (in a good way). Once again, proof that cut is the most important "C" :) for me at least.
 
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