Fix it or Forget it - Volume 2

[kenny]

Dee*jay wrote, "Editing my post: Is the issue about both price AND imperfection or has it just become about price? What I'm trying to ask is if the price were reduced by some "acceptable" amount to compensate for VG vs. EX would that be enough, or is the fact that there are polish lines still an issue too?(I'm afraid I'm not saying/asking this very well, but I think you understand what I mean.)"

If I was able to somehow arrive at a dollar figure I felt was fair for the difference I'd be happy with not only the stone but with the ethics of the transaction.
Both are important.

I can live with the polish lines.
But I cannot live with knowing that they are there after I paid for them to not be there.
It is a matter of principal.

But, first it must be determined what polish grade the GIA would give the stone today.
I already had a GG PS appraiser tell me that only the GIA itself can do that because the retail price here should be determined by GIA paper, not appraiser's opinions.

Now if GIA still gave it an EX I'd have to decide if I'm cool with one facet having those marks or not.
Would the new GIA Ex polish grade make it mind-clean enough? Perhaps. Perhaps not.

Some are framing and seeing this whole process as whether I love the stone or not.
Within that framework, let's just say we are dating, flirting and messing around right now.

 

[kenny]

I think it is the single most beautiful stone in Pricescope's history.

Great drama always swirls around beautiful people and beautiful things.

I just have to slay a dragon to save this damsel in distress.

 

[ladykemma]

yes, and now it has an identifying mark so that you know it''s yours!

 

[kenny]

Cehrabehra, can you do me a favor?

Could you edit your last post please?
I'm sure you were joking but it seems to give my stone bad vibes.

Thanks so much.
I appreciate it.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Kenny, if you sent it off to GIA and it came back EX despite the polish lines would you be at peace with yourself and your beautiful stone? Then you would have gotten, in a roundabout way, what you paid for because it would still be EX. But you have said many time that you pay for things that you cannot see, and here would be something that you could still see. So in my mind (in my attempt to read your mind, LOL) it is maybe not just about getting what you paid for, but also about perfection.

And I'm not trying to argue with you or convince you of anything, I just want to understand if the issue is about price (i.e., getting what you paid for) or about perfection, which are two different things altogether.

 

[kenny]

Dee*Jay wrote, "Kenny, if you sent it off to GIA and it came back EX despite the polish lines would you be at peace with yourself? Then you would have gotten, in a roundabout way, what you paid for because it would still be EX. But you have said many time that you pay for things that you cannot see, and here would be something that you could still see. So in my mind (in my attempt to read your mind, LOL) it is maybe not just about getting what you paid for, but also about perfection.
And I'm not trying to argue with you or convince you of anything, I just want to understand if the issue is about price (i.e., getting what you paid for) or about perfection, which are two different things altogether."


Well I cannot expect perfection as it was not a D flawless stone.
It was a lower grade.
I expect the grade I paid for.

BTW perfection is not a dirty word.
I'm not really clear on why you are pursuing my interest in the subject of perfectionism.
It is a fascinating topic and I'm happy to discuss it at length and my history and feelings on the topic - (perhaps on Hangout forum?)
But for purposes of this forum I think we might say perfection comes in grades.
One if Flawless then IF then VVS1 and so on.

Again the main issue is paying for one grade of polish and perhaps receiving a lower grade.
So if GIA still gives it an Ex for polish, which I doubt, legally officially technically it IS what I paid for even though it obviously has polish lines I wish weren't there and were not up to the the quality level of the original cutter.
But again, GIA Ex is GIA Ex and that is the official standard that sets the price.

Now in terms of me being willing to pay for what I can't see, I CAN see the inclusions and the polish lines in this stone with a 10x loupe but not with the naked eye. So I'm not sure what you are asking.

Have I answered your questions?
(I must go out now for the evening. I do have a tiny life outside PS)

Once again a very deep bow to everyone who has offered their time here.
I am very appreciative of your thoughts, whatever they are.
This is important to me, is 300 years of income, and it is hard to think clearly without feedback from others who share the passion for diamonds.

Occasionally life is a struggle between nuttiness and reasonableness.

 

[Dee*Jay]

Kenny, I''m sorry that I''m not articulating my thoughts very well on this.

In terms of perfection, you are right in that you didn''t buy a flawless stone. I guess I was approaching perfection in terms of what you bought being perfectly/appropriately graded (does that make any sense?). So if you bought a stone without polish lines the closest you''re going to get with perfection in terms of the polish lines here is NONE. I feel like I''m chasing my own tail in trying to articluate a *feeling* more than anything else. My apologies for having confused the issue with my inarticulate statements/questions.

But seriously Kenny, whatever you decide to do and whatever the outcome is I hope that you will be ultimately perfectly happy with your stone. You have indeed paid a lot of money for this diamond, and you should get not only in what you paid for in terms of market value but also "emotional value."

I should stop cluttering your thread with my attemps to distinguish between "wallet clean" and "*mind clean*" as DF used to say, LOL.

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 12/16/2006 6:19:58 PM
Author: kenny
Some are framing and seeing this whole process as whether I love the stone or not.
Within that framework, let''s just say we are dating, flirting and messing around right now.

hahaha - she''s got a rockin'' body - but does she put out? hehe

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 12/16/2006 6:22:20 PM
Author: kenny
I think it is the single most beautiful stone in Pricescope''s history.

Great drama always swirls around beautiful people and beautiful things.

I just have to slay a dragon to save this damsel in distress.

sounds like you do love it - but what, praytell, IS the dragon?

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 12/16/2006 6:31:29 PM
Author: kenny
Cehrabehra, can you do me a favor?

Could you edit your last post please?
I''m sure you were joking but it seems to give my stone bad vibes.

Thanks so much.
I appreciate it.

you ask so nicely - I cannot refuse.... but yes, it is humor Besides - you aim to rescue her, right?

 

[Cehrabehra]

Date: 12/16/2006 7:45:14 PM
Author: Dee*Jay
I should stop cluttering your thread with my attemps to distinguish between ''wallet clean'' and ''*mind clean*'' as DF used to say, LOL.

I can''t speak for kenny - but the vibe I''m getting is that if he can achieve a wallet clean place the stone will be mind clean *enough* for him to keep it.

 

[pyramid]

What do others think. Does perfection exist as a whole. GIA has various grades and the polish one here is Excellent which must be perfect as Kenny said the Solasfera did not get Excellent because of the polish lines on the pavillion. However I don't know but maybe its other proportions etc. were perfect or ideal. Now this stone Kenny has apparently is 'kicken' and as perfect as it is felt he can get with its proportions but polish is not. If that was a chip then it must have been perfect (as far as humans can determine) before, but was it really? Just wondering when we think of how rare a D Flawless Ideal Cut diamond of a certain weight is, does this mean that a diamond having ideal proportions and Excellent polish/symmetry is very rare too. I know Ideal cut stones carry a premium and they are rarer than what is in every jewellers but under a 10 x loupe is the Excellent polish always perfect and if it is do the proportions of that same stone come out perfect too or are they a bit off, even though it is within ideal cut grades?

Is sometimes good, good enough? I know that Kenny should get Excellent if that is what he is paying for in the polish department on his stone, but does excellent really exist. Some like very high color and clarity but we hear clarity described as purity and not excellent, whereas Perfection usually means Excellent. Are we confusing Perfection with Excellent, does it mean the same?

 

[Eva17]

Kenny, this situation must be so frustrating.....

I totally agree with your feeling that if you bought the stone that way, then you would have done it knowingly. I would have to know if it still matches the cert that I paid for. After all, diamonds are sold, based on these minute details.

If the car had a ding when I got to the showroom, I would not be driving it home that day. If I ding it on my way home from the showroom, then yeah, "poo poo happens", nothing is perfect, etc...

Good luck with whatever you decide.

 

[pyramid]

Chambers English Dictionary:

Perfect: without fault (mistake)

Excellent: extremely good


So that means that just good is perfect

So is it all different degrees, Good polish to some where they can see the polish lines under a loupe would be a fault. This Good polish is not graded as Fair polish or Poor polish though. So do we all have different degrees of perfection so there is no real definable perfect other than without fault!


So taking perfection out of this, we are just left with Excellent and that is what Kenny wants and paid for. If this stone cannot be polished again without interfering with symmetry or other measurements then he cannot have Excellent polish in this stone unless GIA determine it Excellent with the polish marks which from what Kenny saw with his other stone they wouldn't. So is it worth it to get a GIA report and it come back with VG. If it does and he wants to keep the stone then ALL HE CAN DO is negotiate with Jonathan. If the GIA report comes back as EX then he has to accept the stone as is and the price too probably but is out the cost of recertification.

Another thought Kenny, if your stone comes back as VG and you are still on the forum (as you probably would be) and there are newbies or members looking for an asscher and debates about Excellent polish and proportions with the new ideal grade coming out, would the lesser polish make you feel bad about your stone or would its proportions make up for that do you think.

Kenny, do you really want to return the stone but feel bad doing so.

Do you really want to start from scratch looking for another asscher.

Would you prefer that the stone goes on the wheel and they try to get the polish Excellent or are you happy with what Jonathan said there about it may affect other proportions. Is the Symmetry more important than the Polish to you.

Are you happy with how Jonathan is dealing with this or are you expecting more from him.

 

[moremoremore]

See, now you've gone and done it Kenny LOL...Now I'm confused...

Here's what you write:
But I cannot live with knowing that they are there after I paid for them to not be there.
It is a matter of principal.

But then you say
Now if GIA still gave it an EX I'd have to decide if I'm cool with one facet having those marks or not.

On one hand you say it's about getting what you paid for but then at the same time you say even if it comes back as an Ex (so you're still getting what you paid for) you'd still have to decide if you're cool

Do you really think an EX stone with these microscopic "issues" would cose less than another Ex? No....)
I think you're stressing big time dude...The chip is gone, the stone rocks, you should not be entitled to any discount imo if the stone comes back as an Ex which it will...

 

[kenny]

Even if it came back from GIA with Ex polish, (I doubt it will) I know the polish lines are a result of an chip repair that didn't result in the same smooth quality of surface that that facet used to have, and every other facet of this diamond has.
Besides, he repair shouldn't have been necessary anyway.

Hence my ambivalence.

I'm afraid that I'm not a logic machine.
I am not Spock from Star Trek.
Like all human beings I have a left and right side of the brain fighting for control.
Emotion vs. logic.

 

[mrssalvo]

Kenny,

return the stone and start over. there is too much drama all ready and it''s not worth it.

I personally think it will still retain it''s grade and as storm pointed out lesser stones cost more. So, if you return Jon can send it back, get a new report plotting the marks if GIA sees fit and probably still charge more for it. So, you''re right you didn''t get what you paid for, your not sure even a regrade will make you happy, just return it and find a stone that comes to you exactly how you want it. Daniel K cuts ex/ex asschers, you might look into hunting one of those down, you can buy the stones without the settings from him..

 

[decodelighted]

Date: 12/17/2006 1:21:26 AM
Author: kenny
Besides, the repair shouldn't have been necessary anyway.

This line shows me that you are stuck way back in history-ville. Which is why this "credit" you seek seems punitive ... less about "getting what you paid for" (moral principal/head) and more about "getting even with whoever hurt your stone" (base instinst/heart). JMHO.

 

[pyramid]

decodelighted What you said is what I have been thinking too. If I was Kenny I would return the stone now because he will never be happy with it and always think the polish is not right. The stone cannot be repolished Jonathan has said without it affecting its measurements or symmetry so this is basically just about the paperwork/cost/how Kenny feels about the diamond's condition now - because the stone is not changing. It has been said before buy the diamond not the paperwork. Many write that they have forgotten what the certificate says for their diamond, if is in a safe and has probably been for years, in the end its use is just for reselling purposes. This is not true though if you like the things about your diamond that cannot be seen in real everyday life, like the minute inclusions, so if Kenny gets pleasure from having a very pure diamond he would probably get pleasure from having a certificate which has the best specs his money could buy. I would think Kenny would want to have the stone Certificate up to date anyway due to the fact it COULD be different after the repolish, EX/VG or lost a point in weight and being particular about the purity of the diamond I would think he would want to be particular about the certificate being correct too. Maybe he feels Jonathan should be getting the diamond recerted and paying for it to verify the stone is what he sold Kenny but then as money had already changed hands is it Kenny's reponsibility. When a stone has not been purchased I have seen people being advised to get the diamond certified and if it comes back how the dealer says they pay and if it does not the dealer pays, so would that make Kenny happy and would it be something that would be considered anyway. In a way I feel this is maybe what is at the heart of this. Apart from all this he has to find out if he keeps the diamond if he has lost any monetary value and this can only be done by GIA because even an independent appraiser has said they cannot help here. Yes Jonathan could say in his opinion the polish is till EX but he is not independent being the seller of the stone.

So first step is either Return the stone
Get it recerted (costs more money)

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 12/17/2006 1:21:26 AM
Author: kenny

Even if it came back from GIA with Ex polish, (I doubt it will) I know the polish lines are a result of an chip repair that didn''t result in the same smooth quality of surface that that facet used to have, and every other facet of this diamond has.

Besides, the repair shouldn''t have been necessary anyway.

Date: 12/17/2006 8:52:53 AM
Author: decodelighted

This line shows me that you are stuck way back in history-ville. Which is why this "credit" you seek seems punitive ... less about "getting what you paid for" (moral principal/head) and more about "getting even with whoever hurt your stone" (base instinst/heart). JMHO.

Kenny: You are being the most amazing PIA I''ve ever seen.

Why? Sweetie, in the REAL world, CRAP HAPPENS, yanno? The repair shouldn''t have been necessary? How old are you Kenny......five?

I don''t mean to be fresh, but honestly! You''re an ADULT, so I assume you know that things go wrong all the damn time. Ca-ca happens, and you can''t UNDO it.

Let me say that again: IT CANNOT BE UNDONE. So, you can whine for the next 6 weeks about how it "shouldn''t" have been needed, but it ain''t gonna change a thing.

So sure, it shouldn''t have been needed. BUT IT WAS. Oh, well. Life isn''t perfect. Mistakes happen all the time. You cannot sit around consumed with whether or not the mistake "should have" happened at all.

You''re an adult. You have to deal with what is.

Here''s what IS: The stone has a defect that ''presumably'' occurred after it was graded. (P.S. Until you get a regrade from GIA, you won''t know that for sure. You can *think* it, and you might be 99.9% right.....but you don''t know that yet.)

You have two choices:

1) get it regraded and negotiate a fair price based on those results. Stop the hooey about your inability to know what''s a fair price. Here''s all that "fair price" means in this type of situation: one that makes both you and the vendor happy and comfortable. Several others have given some great examples of what the market will bear, citing other stones that aren''t as well-cut as this one. It''s not brain surgery to pick a number from there. If you and Jon cannot agree on what''s fair, return it.

2) return it. If your manic fixation on "it shouldn''t have been necessary" cannot be overcome, this is your only choice.

I speak from experience on this one, by the way. My halo pendant is a VERY sentimental piece for me; it was crafted for my 40th birthday. In trying to trim the bezel, the stone somehow became abraded. (CRAP HAPPENS). Stone was SI2, so you can gather that I''m not a ''mind-clean'' freak. That said, I don''t want to pay for something I''m not getting. I talked to the vendor. He made what I felt was a fair/reasonable adjustment to the price of the stone, and that was the end of it.

In my instance, stone wasn''t brokered. I don''t know if that''s the case with Jon.....I''m guessing that even if he owns this stone, he has already paid for it, and that cost to him cannot be adjusted. If so, he may need to factor that into what he''s able to do.

All the whining in the word (shoulda, coulda, woulda) isn''t gonna change what IS, Kenny. I can understand being disappointed, and I can even understand having a ''vent'' period to get that disappointment out of your system. But, at some point, you gotta stop focusing on the problem (this sucks, this shouldn''t have happened) and start focusing on the resolution (so what can I do about this).

If I were a vendor, I''d really struggle with someone who wants to focus on the crying (I''m not happy, I''m not happy, I''m not happy) instead of figuring out what it takes to make him happy.

 

[firebirdgold]

Oh for crying out loud... it''s the girdle facet! Just forget about it! It''s a beautiful stone!