Female Mccain''s VP pick

[galeteia]

Date: 9/2/2008 12:40:56 PM
Author: SarahLovesJS

Wow! So one pregnancy is complete proof that abstinence-only education is completely ineffective?

No, the studies are proof that abstinence-only education does not work, and if anything increases STD rates because the teens do not practice safe sex. A two minute google search will provide a plethora of information discrediting abstinence-only education, including news articles like this one: Doctors Denounce Abstinence-Only Education

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 9/2/2008 12:56:30 PM
Author: Galateia

Date: 9/2/2008 12:40:56 PM

Author: SarahLovesJS


Wow! So one pregnancy is complete proof that abstinence-only education is completely ineffective?

No, the studies are proof that abstinence-only education does not work, and if anything increases STD rates because the teens do not practice safe sex. A two minute google search will provide a plethora of information discrediting abstinence-only education, including news articles like this one: Doctors Denounce Abstinence-Only Education

I understand that, but that''s not what she said.

 

[Black Jade]

Dear thing2of2:
What statistics state that most teens who get pregnant are using birth control?

Two-thirds of all pregnancies, which would include teen pregnancies certainly, happen to people using birth control. Many of us married moms could bear witness that one of our kids was not planned, even though we were being perfectly responsible. Is this a risk you want to take with your teen?

And what information do you have that points to the idea that abortion is more traumatic than teen pregnancy?

Here''s just one article detailing the effects on many women of having had an abortion.
http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/after_effects_of_abortion.asp

Here''s a group of women speaking for themselves, after abortions.
http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/index.html

It''s embarrassing to be pregnant as a teenager, but hardly ''traumatic'', by contrast. YOur life is interrupted, and probably your parents are angry at you. But with the proper support, you can go on, continue your education later, and either raise your child or give it to a loving people. There is a shortage of adoptable babies in the US.
I had a friend who was unintentionally pregnant once and within 24 hours was able to locate a family who was willing to pay her medical costs, care for her until she had the baby, and then to adopt her child. There are agencies that specialize in doing this kind of thing. (My friend was not a teenager BTW. And unfortunately, she chose, as a married woman, to go ahead with her abortion, although even her husband begged her to have the child).

Proper support, is of course, ESSENTIAL. That is why I support agencies in my community that stay with the mother through the pregnancy and for YEARS afterwards, meeting financial and emotional needs. There are many such agencies that do not get any publicity whatsoever--or only negative publicity.

I used to believe abortion was an important ''choice'' BTW and even worked in a clinic where they processed very early abortions as a young girl. I was able to do this until I saw my first ultrasound. I do not judge people for being pro-abortion, if they are misinformed about it actually being a baby in there--I believe it is easy to be misinformed in our society with all the rhetoric about ''choice'' and ''fetuses''. It is sad, however, to continue to be willfully misinformed. Or to be aware that a child is being killed and give yourself some argument about expediency as in "it''s better for this child not to be born than to..."


IFurthermore, I''ve seen no evidence that suggests teen sex is unhealthy and/or scarring. In many countries in Europe it is common and accepted that teenagers are going to experiment with each other, and something tells me Europeans are a lot less ''scarred'' than Americans when it comes to sex.

Hmm. What countries? How do you know that Europeans aren''t scarred and Americans are? I used to live in Europe and would be interested in this part of your reply.

Amicably in disagreement,
Black Jade

 

[Anna0499]

Date: 9/2/2008 12:35:00 PM
Author: ksinger
I certainly don''t take any of this for granted, unlike many of our younger women who not only never fought the fight, but never even saw the battles waged. I hope they don''t give it all away, what their mothers fought for...

Hmm....maybe I should dust off the old Gloria Steinem and Mary Daly tomes and get myself back into my youth.... of course burning my bra at this age could have tragic implications for my knees.

Some of our mothers fought against Roe v. Wade and continue to fight today...

I think it''s crazy if anyone thinks McCain will singlehandedly overrule Roe v. Wade. Perhaps SCOTUS would if different justices are appointed, but even then it is a long shot. I heard an Obama-sponsored ad today from Planned Parenthood stating that if elected, McCain *would* outlaw abortion. Any legislation aimed at prohibiting abortion would come from and/or need to be approved by CONGRESS. So many people are giving the president too much power and don''t understand the system...

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 9/2/2008 12:16:40 PM
Author: purrfectpear
I don''t have any issues with the fact that her daughter became pregnant at 16. These things happen. They happen even in families who have parents who preach abstinence and claim a moral high ground. Anyone who thinks they have complete control over their teens is dreaming.

I do have an issue with how she chose to handle it. She lied. I repeat, she lied. She removed her daughter from school, and claimed that the child had mono. Mono does not take 6 months to recover from. What modern parent lies about their daughter''s pregnancy in 2008? She wasn''t protecting the girl from public shame, she was protecting her OWN political agenda. I find that pretty reprehensible. Then as soon as she needed to deflect the nasty rumors regarding herself, she threw her daughter under the bus.

How many of the PS moms would have accepted a high profile job that would require them to travel 50% of the time, subject their entire family to extreme media scrutiny, would be on call literally 24/7 with NO DAYS OFF, while they had a newborn with Down''s syndrome, 4 other children at home, including a pregnant 17 year old.

Seriously, how many? Any of you? Even the most ambitious of you? If someone came on PS and described these conditions and asked if they should take the job, I think they would be advised to consider the damage to their kids. Maybe you disagree?

In Palin''s case, I think she made a poor choice to accept the nomination. I do think there is room for a woman as VP or POTUS, just not this one.

Purrfect pear, thanks for putting this so well. I totally agree with your point here. Even though I am a SAHM, I think it''s totally fine if other women want to work, but I think that for most women that entails a 35-40 hour work week. The rigorous schedule of a vice presidential nominee or vice president is way too much for the mother of an infant, especially one with special needs. Her children need MORE time and attendtion from her now - not for her to work 100+ hours per week.

 

[partgypsy]

I remember being told by a former advisor, of three things (career, good marriage, child) you can do one thing well, two things mediocrely, and 3 things, one''s going to get messed up. It''s not very pc, but basically it was a way of saying, you have to choose. I don''t like to agree with it, but in academics if you are a female, having children is a definite disadvantage. It is different for a women to have a very demanding career AND a family, compared to a man to have those 2 things. Well for one a man can''t breast feed

.

And academics I think is a cakewalk compared to being a vice president.

I''m not saying a woman can''t be vice president (or president) and have kids. Like I often say, you can do everything you want in life, just not at the same time

. At some point I would like to have a more involving career, but I''m not going to do it with my kids being 5 and 2.

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 9/2/2008 1:15:19 PM
Author: IndyGirl22

Date: 9/2/2008 12:35:00 PM
Author: ksinger
I certainly don't take any of this for granted, unlike many of our younger women who not only never fought the fight, but never even saw the battles waged. I hope they don't give it all away, what their mothers fought for...

Hmm....maybe I should dust off the old Gloria Steinem and Mary Daly tomes and get myself back into my youth.... of course burning my bra at this age could have tragic implications for my knees.

Some of our mothers fought against Roe v. Wade and continue to fight today...

I think it's crazy if anyone thinks McCain will singlehandedly overrule Roe v. Wade. Perhaps SCOTUS would if different justices are appointed, but even then it is a long shot. I heard an Obama-sponsored ad today from Planned Parenthood stating that if elected, McCain *would* outlaw abortion. Any legislation aimed at prohibiting abortion would come from and/or need to be approved by CONGRESS. So many people are giving the president too much power and don't understand the system...

Right, I think there is serious confusion about Roe vs. Wade--people seem to think that if it were overturned, abortion would be illegal when all it would do is give the power back to the states...so not only can the President not make abortion illegal, but neither can the Congress (at least not by overturning Roe v. Wade)

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/2/2008 1:15:19 PM

Author: IndyGirl22

I heard an Obama-sponsored ad today from Planned Parenthood stating that if elected, McCain *would* outlaw abortion. Any legislation aimed at prohibiting abortion would come from and/or need to be approved by CONGRESS. So many people are giving the president too much power and don't understand the system...

Well, this is getting even farther off topic. In fact it is getting exceedingly tangential! But here goes: I think that Congress has very limited ability to prohibit abortion via legislation. Now that the Supreme Court has decided that abortion is legal under certain circumstances, I think that only a Constitutional Amendment can make it illegal again...unless the Supreme Court reverses itself.

(You were making the point that many people don't understand the system.)


Deborah

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 9/2/2008 1:59:20 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 9/2/2008 1:15:19 PM



Author: IndyGirl22



I heard an Obama-sponsored ad today from Planned Parenthood stating that if elected, McCain *would* outlaw abortion. Any legislation aimed at prohibiting abortion would come from and/or need to be approved by CONGRESS. So many people are giving the president too much power and don''t understand the system...

Well, this is getting even farther off topic. In fact it is getting exceedingly tangential! But here goes: I think that Congress has very limited ability to prohibit abortion via legislation. Now that the Supreme Court has decided that abortion is legal under certain circumstances, I think that only a Constitutional Amendment can make it illegal again...unless the Supreme Court reverses itself.


(You wre making the point that many people don''t understand the system.)



Deborah

Just wanted to concur because to as far as my knowledge goes, you''re 100% right.

And I agree this thread is going crazy off topic. It''s turned into an abortion debate and sex ed debate. So from here on I think I will just observe.

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/2/2008 1:52:19 PM

Author: NewEnglandLady

Right, I think there is serious confusion about Roe vs. Wade--people seem to think that if it were overturned, abortion would be illegal when all it would do is give the power back to the states...so not only can the President not make abortion illegal, but neither can the Congress (at least not by overturning Roe v. Wade)

Congress cannot overturn Roe versus Wade. Congress can only pass legislation, not overturn court decisions.


Deborah

 

[NewEnglandLady]

Date: 9/2/2008 2:10:42 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 9/2/2008 1:52:19 PM

Author: NewEnglandLady

Right, I think there is serious confusion about Roe vs. Wade--people seem to think that if it were overturned, abortion would be illegal when all it would do is give the power back to the states...so not only can the President not make abortion illegal, but neither can the Congress (at least not by overturning Roe v. Wade)

Congress cannot overturn Roe versus Wade. Congress can only pass legislation, not overturn court decisions.


Deborah

Absolutely, I added that as an edit, but didn't get it right. I meant that the Pres. couldn't make it illegal, Congress couldn't make it illegal and the supreme court overturning Roe v. Wade couldn't make it illegal. My mistake. Sorry, back to Palin discussions...

 

[AGBF]

Date: 9/2/2008 2:08:41 PM
Author: SarahLovesJS

Just wanted to concur because to as far as my knowledge goes, you're 100% right.

And I agree this thread is going crazy off topic. It's turned into an abortion debate and sex ed debate. So from here on I think I will just observe.

Oh, Sarah, a few postings ago I would have been very tempted to join you on the sidelines! I do not need to discuss sex ed or abortion; but now that we have gotten so thoroughly tangential, I am enjoying myself! I used to teach history and I am now trying to recall the basics of how the US government works! It is a bit of a review course.



Deborah

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 9/2/2008 1:05:32 PM
Author: Black Jade

Dear thing2of2:
What statistics state that most teens who get pregnant are using birth control?

Two-thirds of all pregnancies, which would include teen pregnancies certainly, happen to people using birth control. Many of us married moms could bear witness that one of our kids was not planned, even though we were being perfectly responsible. Is this a risk you want to take with your teen?

And what information do you have that points to the idea that abortion is more traumatic than teen pregnancy?

Here''s just one article detailing the effects on many women of having had an abortion.
http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/after_effects_of_abortion.asp

Here''s a group of women speaking for themselves, after abortions.
http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/index.html

It''s embarrassing to be pregnant as a teenager, but hardly ''traumatic'', by contrast. YOur life is interrupted, and probably your parents are angry at you. But with the proper support, you can go on, continue your education later, and either raise your child or give it to a loving people. There is a shortage of adoptable babies in the US.
I had a friend who was unintentionally pregnant once and within 24 hours was able to locate a family who was willing to pay her medical costs, care for her until she had the baby, and then to adopt her child. There are agencies that specialize in doing this kind of thing. (My friend was not a teenager BTW. And unfortunately, she chose, as a married woman, to go ahead with her abortion, although even her husband begged her to have the child).

Proper support, is of course, ESSENTIAL. That is why I support agencies in my community that stay with the mother through the pregnancy and for YEARS afterwards, meeting financial and emotional needs. There are many such agencies that do not get any publicity whatsoever--or only negative publicity.

I used to believe abortion was an important ''choice'' BTW and even worked in a clinic where they processed very early abortions as a young girl. I was able to do this until I saw my first ultrasound. I do not judge people for being pro-abortion, if they are misinformed about it actually being a baby in there--I believe it is easy to be misinformed in our society with all the rhetoric about ''choice'' and ''fetuses''. It is sad, however, to continue to be willfully misinformed. Or to be aware that a child is being killed and give yourself some argument about expediency as in ''it''s better for this child not to be born than to...''


IFurthermore, I''ve seen no evidence that suggests teen sex is unhealthy and/or scarring. In many countries in Europe it is common and accepted that teenagers are going to experiment with each other, and something tells me Europeans are a lot less ''scarred'' than Americans when it comes to sex.

Hmm. What countries? How do you know that Europeans aren''t scarred and Americans are? I used to live in Europe and would be interested in this part of your reply.

Amicably in disagreement,
Black Jade

I''m not interested in all women, I''m interested in teen pregnancy. Do you have any sources that state that most teen pregnancies occur in teens who use contraceptives?

As for your two sources regarding the traumatic effects of abortion, I was looking for scientific research. I''m sure some women were traumatized by having abortions. I''m sure some women were traumatized by being pregnant teens. I think even more women would be traumatized if they didn''t even have the option to have an abortion.

Being a teenage mother isn''t only embarassing, it''s completely life-changing.

As for teenagers having sex in Europe, one country I know of that doesn''t think teen sex is the end of the world is Sweden. I read a great article on Washingtonpost.com a while ago about the very different attitudes two parents had towards teenage sexuality. The mother was American and the father was Swedish. I''ll try to find the link later.

Furthermore, I know a lot of Swedish people (my SIL is Swedish and so are several of my friends) and all of them say that sex among teenagers is pretty much expected and is not seen as a big deal, let alone emotionally scarring.

I think what''s "scarring" is the Puritanical attitude Americans have towards sex. If we saw sex as a natural part of life and didn''t tie it to eternal damnation, I bet most people wouldn''t be "scarred" at all.

 

[SarahLovesJS]

Date: 9/2/2008 2:18:01 PM
Author: AGBF

Date: 9/2/2008 2:08:41 PM

Author: SarahLovesJS


Just wanted to concur because to as far as my knowledge goes, you''re 100% right.

And I agree this thread is going crazy off topic. It''s turned into an abortion debate and sex ed debate. So from here on I think I will just observe.

Oh, Sarah, a few postings ago I would have been very tempted to join you on the sidelines! I do not need to discuss sex ed or abortion; but now that we have gotten so thoroughly tangential, I am enjoying myself! I used to teach history and I am now trying to recall the basics of how the US government works! It is a bit of a review course.




Deborah

Haha, have fun!

I personally, need to take a break because I get too saucy for my own good, and I don''t want to offend anyone.

 

[vespergirl]

Date: 9/2/2008 2:23:47 PM
Author: thing2of2

Date: 9/2/2008 1:05:32 PM
Author: Black Jade


Dear thing2of2:
What statistics state that most teens who get pregnant are using birth control?

Two-thirds of all pregnancies, which would include teen pregnancies certainly, happen to people using birth control. Many of us married moms could bear witness that one of our kids was not planned, even though we were being perfectly responsible. Is this a risk you want to take with your teen?

And what information do you have that points to the idea that abortion is more traumatic than teen pregnancy?

Here''s just one article detailing the effects on many women of having had an abortion.
http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/after_effects_of_abortion.asp

Here''s a group of women speaking for themselves, after abortions.
http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/index.html

It''s embarrassing to be pregnant as a teenager, but hardly ''traumatic'', by contrast. YOur life is interrupted, and probably your parents are angry at you. But with the proper support, you can go on, continue your education later, and either raise your child or give it to a loving people. There is a shortage of adoptable babies in the US.
I had a friend who was unintentionally pregnant once and within 24 hours was able to locate a family who was willing to pay her medical costs, care for her until she had the baby, and then to adopt her child. There are agencies that specialize in doing this kind of thing. (My friend was not a teenager BTW. And unfortunately, she chose, as a married woman, to go ahead with her abortion, although even her husband begged her to have the child).

Proper support, is of course, ESSENTIAL. That is why I support agencies in my community that stay with the mother through the pregnancy and for YEARS afterwards, meeting financial and emotional needs. There are many such agencies that do not get any publicity whatsoever--or only negative publicity.

I used to believe abortion was an important ''choice'' BTW and even worked in a clinic where they processed very early abortions as a young girl. I was able to do this until I saw my first ultrasound. I do not judge people for being pro-abortion, if they are misinformed about it actually being a baby in there--I believe it is easy to be misinformed in our society with all the rhetoric about ''choice'' and ''fetuses''. It is sad, however, to continue to be willfully misinformed. Or to be aware that a child is being killed and give yourself some argument about expediency as in ''it''s better for this child not to be born than to...''


IFurthermore, I''ve seen no evidence that suggests teen sex is unhealthy and/or scarring. In many countries in Europe it is common and accepted that teenagers are going to experiment with each other, and something tells me Europeans are a lot less ''scarred'' than Americans when it comes to sex.

Hmm. What countries? How do you know that Europeans aren''t scarred and Americans are? I used to live in Europe and would be interested in this part of your reply.

Amicably in disagreement,
Black Jade

I''m not interested in all women, I''m interested in teen pregnancy. Do you have any sources that state that most teen pregnancies occur in teens who use contraceptives?

As for your two sources regarding the traumatic effects of abortion, I was looking for scientific research. I''m sure some women were traumatized by having abortions. I''m sure some women were traumatized by being pregnant teens. I think even more women would be traumatized if they didn''t even have the option to have an abortion.

Being a teenage mother isn''t only embarassing, it''s completely life-changing.

As for teenagers having sex in Europe, one country I know of that doesn''t think teen sex is the end of the world is Sweden. I read a great article on Washingtonpost.com a while ago about the very different attitudes two parents had towards teenage sexuality. The mother was American and the father was Swedish. I''ll try to find the link later.

Furthermore, I know a lot of Swedish people (my SIL is Swedish and so are several of my friends) and all of them say that sex among teenagers is pretty much expected and is not seen as a big deal, let alone emotionally scarring.

I think what''s ''scarring'' is the Puritanical attitude Americans have towards sex. If we saw sex as a natural part of life and didn''t tie it to eternal damnation, I bet most people wouldn''t be ''scarred'' at all.

Thing2, you must be my long lost twin because we think alike!

I have agreed with all of your posts on this thread - very eloquent and well-informed.

 

[ksinger]

Date: 9/2/2008 2:23:47 PM
Author: thing2of2

Date: 9/2/2008 1:05:32 PM
Author: Black Jade


Dear thing2of2:
What statistics state that most teens who get pregnant are using birth control?

Two-thirds of all pregnancies, which would include teen pregnancies certainly, happen to people using birth control. Many of us married moms could bear witness that one of our kids was not planned, even though we were being perfectly responsible. Is this a risk you want to take with your teen?

I''m not interested in all women, I''m interested in teen pregnancy. Do you have any sources that state that most teen pregnancies occur in teens who use contraceptives?

As for your two sources regarding the traumatic effects of abortion, I was looking for scientific research. I''m sure some women were traumatized by having abortions. I''m sure some women were traumatized by being pregnant teens. I think even more women would be traumatized if they didn''t even have the option to have an abortion.

Ditto to that. 2/3 of all pregnancies being conceived while on contraceptives (assuming that your stat is correct - you still haven''t supplied any source) NOT EQUAL (or <> or != or.... I''m a programmer, what can I say?) 2/3 of small subset consisting of only TEEN pregnancies (probably defined as 15-19), being conceived while on contraceptives. You cannot necessarily apply a stat for an entire group to a small subset of that group. Sources please.

 

[Anna0499]

Date: 9/2/2008 1:59:20 PM
Author: AGBF

Well, this is getting even farther off topic. In fact it is getting exceedingly tangential! But here goes: I think that Congress has very limited ability to prohibit abortion via legislation. Now that the Supreme Court has decided that abortion is legal under certain circumstances, I think that only a Constitutional Amendment can make it illegal again...unless the Supreme Court reverses itself.

(You were making the point that many people don't understand the system.)


Deborah

I apologize if I was getting too off topic,

I only brought it up because I heard it on the radio this morning in an Obama ad falsely stating what McCain would do if elected and I think it is 100% misleading...maybe it belonged in the Obama ad. I wouldn't have posted it if it was just a Planned Parenthood ad without Obama's voice introducing it and I also wouldn't have brought it up if Palin's own personal beliefs about abortion weren't discussed to much on this thread. I agree with your sentiments, though, that's why I found the ad annoying...it was simply untrue and creating much ado about nothing (not that abortion is nothing, but that the president wouldn't be the one changing its current state). I think most PSers *probably* understand how the government works and who actually makes laws and who doesn't, but the Obama ad people seem to not think so...

I thought this thread got horribly off-topic once we started talking about how pregnant her 16 year old daughter looked in different pictures, but it has been interesting. I think, for the most part, everyone has conducted meaningful dialogue without getting personal. I think you can talk about issues of abortion/contraceptives/etc. as it applies to the political world without condemning nor praising anyone for using/not using them. I don't think anyone is debating the morality of abortion or sex education...just which approach works best for them and their own families and how different views may affect politics. I have quite enjoyed it but maybe I am alone haha... ETA: Deb...this second paragraph was not in response to your post!

 

[icekid]

Date: 9/2/2008 1:34:01 PM
Author: vespergirl

Purrfect pear, thanks for putting this so well. I totally agree with your point here. Even though I am a SAHM, I think it''s totally fine if other women want to work, but I think that for most women that entails a 35-40 hour work week. The rigorous schedule of a vice presidential nominee or vice president is way too much for the mother of an infant, especially one with special needs. Her children need MORE time and attendtion from her now - not for her to work 100+ hours per week.

35-40 hours per week? that is the limit for all mothers? I know many many women who are physicians who don''t even come close to working 40 hour weeks! try 90, with an 8 week child at home. maybe that is not ideal, but no one is going to take their children away for neglect. There is a reason that children have fathers, grandparents, or a nanny. I find this anti-woman in the workplace talk so disheartening. The women who came before us have worked SO hard to prove that we can function just as well as any man; I will not do them the disservice of putting my career and education on the shelf so I can be barefoot and pregnant at home. Sarah Palin has just as much right to run for public office as any father out there.

 

[Anna0499]

Date: 9/2/2008 3:48:07 PM
Author: icekid

35-40 hours per week? that is the limit for all mothers? I know many many women who are physicians who don''t even come close to working 40 hour weeks! try 90, with an 8 week child at home. maybe that is not ideal, but no one is going to take their children away for neglect. There is a reason that children have fathers, grandparents, or a nanny. I find this anti-woman in the workplace talk so disheartening. The women who came before us have worked SO hard to prove that we can function just as well as any man; I will not do them the disservice of putting my career and education on the shelf so I can be barefoot and pregnant at home. Sarah Palin has just as much right to run for public office as any father out there.

I agree...as a young woman I too am disheartened. I work at a firm and know many successful female attorneys who have great home lives. Granted, VP is different than being an attorney, but it is *unprecedented* so no one knows of the negative ramifications, if any, such a position will have on a person''s home life. Fathers can care for babies too... It seems weird to me so say in one breath that women have a right to choose and then in another say that a woman with children cannot be the VP...almost a punishment for having young kids...

 

[Black Jade]

Date: 9/2/2008 2:44:36 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 9/2/2008 2:23:47 PM
Author: thing2of2

Date: 9/2/2008 1:05:32 PM
Author: Black Jade



Dear thing2of2:
What statistics state that most teens who get pregnant are using birth control?

Two-thirds of all pregnancies, which would include teen pregnancies certainly, happen to people using birth control. Many of us married moms could bear witness that one of our kids was not planned, even though we were being perfectly responsible. Is this a risk you want to take with your teen?

And what information do you have that points to the idea that abortion is more traumatic than teen pregnancy?

Here''s just one article detailing the effects on many women of having had an abortion.
http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/after_effects_of_abortion.asp

Here''s a group of women speaking for themselves, after abortions.
http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/index.html

It''s embarrassing to be pregnant as a teenager, but hardly ''traumatic'', by contrast. YOur life is interrupted, and probably your parents are angry at you. But with the proper support, you can go on, continue your education later, and either raise your child or give it to a loving people. There is a shortage of adoptable babies in the US.
I had a friend who was unintentionally pregnant once and within 24 hours was able to locate a family who was willing to pay her medical costs, care for her until she had the baby, and then to adopt her child. There are agencies that specialize in doing this kind of thing. (My friend was not a teenager BTW. And unfortunately, she chose, as a married woman, to go ahead with her abortion, although even her husband begged her to have the child).

Proper support, is of course, ESSENTIAL. That is why I support agencies in my community that stay with the mother through the pregnancy and for YEARS afterwards, meeting financial and emotional needs. There are many such agencies that do not get any publicity whatsoever--or only negative publicity.

I used to believe abortion was an important ''choice'' BTW and even worked in a clinic where they processed very early abortions as a young girl. I was able to do this until I saw my first ultrasound. I do not judge people for being pro-abortion, if they are misinformed about it actually being a baby in there--I believe it is easy to be misinformed in our society with all the rhetoric about ''choice'' and ''fetuses''. It is sad, however, to continue to be willfully misinformed. Or to be aware that a child is being killed and give yourself some argument about expediency as in ''it''s better for this child not to be born than to...''


IFurthermore, I''ve seen no evidence that suggests teen sex is unhealthy and/or scarring. In many countries in Europe it is common and accepted that teenagers are going to experiment with each other, and something tells me Europeans are a lot less ''scarred'' than Americans when it comes to sex.

Hmm. What countries? How do you know that Europeans aren''t scarred and Americans are? I used to live in Europe and would be interested in this part of your reply.

Amicably in disagreement,
Black Jade

I''m not interested in all women, I''m interested in teen pregnancy. Do you have any sources that state that most teen pregnancies occur in teens who use contraceptives?

As for your two sources regarding the traumatic effects of abortion, I was looking for scientific research. I''m sure some women were traumatized by having abortions. I''m sure some women were traumatized by being pregnant teens. I think even more women would be traumatized if they didn''t even have the option to have an abortion.

Being a teenage mother isn''t only embarassing, it''s completely life-changing.

As for teenagers having sex in Europe, one country I know of that doesn''t think teen sex is the end of the world is Sweden. I read a great article on Washingtonpost.com a while ago about the very different attitudes two parents had towards teenage sexuality. The mother was American and the father was Swedish. I''ll try to find the link later.

Furthermore, I know a lot of Swedish people (my SIL is Swedish and so are several of my friends) and all of them say that sex among teenagers is pretty much expected and is not seen as a big deal, let alone emotionally scarring.

I think what''s ''scarring'' is the Puritanical attitude Americans have towards sex. If we saw sex as a natural part of life and didn''t tie it to eternal damnation, I bet most people wouldn''t be ''scarred'' at all.

Thing2, you must be my long lost twin because we think alike!

I have agreed with all of your posts on this thread - very eloquent and well-informed.

Interesting ideas. However, I don''t this discussion is going to go anywhere--we are clearly not at all on the same page. I think I''ll go back to where I will learn more about diamonds, rather than new sorts of morality (and new ideas about what constitutes evidence--I''m sure your SIL is a nice person--but a definitive source--?)
Best to you,
Black Jade

 

[HollyS]

Hey Freke:

My opinion is as valid as yours. If you're going to post something as an issue, expect comments. Even if you don't like them. You had an opinion, and an agenda by posting the link. And then you added your own commentary. So I don't believe I misinterpreted your post.

You're out of line. And just as responsible for keeping this a civil discussion as anyone else.

 

[galeteia]

Date: 9/2/2008 4:28:09 PM
Author: HollyS



Hey Freke:

You''re out of line. And just as responsible for keeping this a civil discussion as anyone else.

Do I see ''net nannying''?

In Freke''s post, there was an issue of responses being directed at a person (or at persons) instead of at the topic at hand. I agreed with her observation that there had been questionable comments made directed at posters, but due to your professed aversion to ''net nannying'' I did not say anything at the time.

Freke has as much right as you do to object to people being individually challenged in lieu of challenging their arguments, just as you have the right to express your opinion that she was ''out of line'' for doing so.

However, it is unfair to insulate oneself from criticism by denouncing ''net nannying'' but then commit it oneself.

 

[decodelighted]

I just can''t wipe the smile OFF of my face. The "left wing" doesn''t have to do a darn thing. Palin and her wobbly card-house-of-lies is gonna implode all on their own. Tabloids smell blood in the water. No need for tip offs or sliming or anything other than the TRUTH to slowly but surely leak on out. Its a new age. The age of love children on the cover of national rags, rather than quietly whispered about. Consider the VP candidacy death watch commenced. Hey, at least McCain will get to pick his BFF Lieberman now!

Bwahahahahaha.

And look what it took ... McCain can''t help himself around a pretty face ... again.

ps-- I *am* sorry that a few teenagers and an innocent baby or two are getting hurt by this scandal. Wish their parents hadn''t set them up for disaster though. Great judgment, right? Heartbeat away from the Oval Office style "judgment"? Think NOT.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 9/2/2008 4:19:27 PM
Author: Black Jade

Date: 9/2/2008 2:44:36 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 9/2/2008 2:23:47 PM
Author: thing2of2

Date: 9/2/2008 1:05:32 PM
Author: Black Jade




Dear thing2of2:
What statistics state that most teens who get pregnant are using birth control?

Two-thirds of all pregnancies, which would include teen pregnancies certainly, happen to people using birth control. Many of us married moms could bear witness that one of our kids was not planned, even though we were being perfectly responsible. Is this a risk you want to take with your teen?

And what information do you have that points to the idea that abortion is more traumatic than teen pregnancy?

Here''s just one article detailing the effects on many women of having had an abortion.
http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/after_effects_of_abortion.asp

Here''s a group of women speaking for themselves, after abortions.
http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/index.html

It''s embarrassing to be pregnant as a teenager, but hardly ''traumatic'', by contrast. YOur life is interrupted, and probably your parents are angry at you. But with the proper support, you can go on, continue your education later, and either raise your child or give it to a loving people. There is a shortage of adoptable babies in the US.
I had a friend who was unintentionally pregnant once and within 24 hours was able to locate a family who was willing to pay her medical costs, care for her until she had the baby, and then to adopt her child. There are agencies that specialize in doing this kind of thing. (My friend was not a teenager BTW. And unfortunately, she chose, as a married woman, to go ahead with her abortion, although even her husband begged her to have the child).

Proper support, is of course, ESSENTIAL. That is why I support agencies in my community that stay with the mother through the pregnancy and for YEARS afterwards, meeting financial and emotional needs. There are many such agencies that do not get any publicity whatsoever--or only negative publicity.

I used to believe abortion was an important ''choice'' BTW and even worked in a clinic where they processed very early abortions as a young girl. I was able to do this until I saw my first ultrasound. I do not judge people for being pro-abortion, if they are misinformed about it actually being a baby in there--I believe it is easy to be misinformed in our society with all the rhetoric about ''choice'' and ''fetuses''. It is sad, however, to continue to be willfully misinformed. Or to be aware that a child is being killed and give yourself some argument about expediency as in ''it''s better for this child not to be born than to...''


IFurthermore, I''ve seen no evidence that suggests teen sex is unhealthy and/or scarring. In many countries in Europe it is common and accepted that teenagers are going to experiment with each other, and something tells me Europeans are a lot less ''scarred'' than Americans when it comes to sex.

Hmm. What countries? How do you know that Europeans aren''t scarred and Americans are? I used to live in Europe and would be interested in this part of your reply.

Amicably in disagreement,
Black Jade

I''m not interested in all women, I''m interested in teen pregnancy. Do you have any sources that state that most teen pregnancies occur in teens who use contraceptives?

As for your two sources regarding the traumatic effects of abortion, I was looking for scientific research. I''m sure some women were traumatized by having abortions. I''m sure some women were traumatized by being pregnant teens. I think even more women would be traumatized if they didn''t even have the option to have an abortion.

Being a teenage mother isn''t only embarassing, it''s completely life-changing.

As for teenagers having sex in Europe, one country I know of that doesn''t think teen sex is the end of the world is Sweden. I read a great article on Washingtonpost.com a while ago about the very different attitudes two parents had towards teenage sexuality. The mother was American and the father was Swedish. I''ll try to find the link later.

Furthermore, I know a lot of Swedish people (my SIL is Swedish and so are several of my friends) and all of them say that sex among teenagers is pretty much expected and is not seen as a big deal, let alone emotionally scarring.

I think what''s ''scarring'' is the Puritanical attitude Americans have towards sex. If we saw sex as a natural part of life and didn''t tie it to eternal damnation, I bet most people wouldn''t be ''scarred'' at all.

Thing2, you must be my long lost twin because we think alike!

I have agreed with all of your posts on this thread - very eloquent and well-informed.

Interesting ideas. However, I don''t this discussion is going to go anywhere--we are clearly not at all on the same page. I think I''ll go back to where I will learn more about diamonds, rather than new sorts of morality (and new ideas about what constitutes evidence--I''m sure your SIL is a nice person--but a definitive source--?)
Best to you,
Black Jade

Oh I certainly wasn''t holding my SIL up as a definitive source. She''s no more a credible source than the anti-abortion websites and sourceless statistics you posted. The article I mentioned did have real sources in it if I recall, but since you are leaving the thread I won''t bother to hunt it down.

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 9/2/2008 5:42:45 PM
Author: decodelighted

I just can''t wipe the smile OFF of my face. The ''left wing'' doesn''t have to do a darn thing. Palin and her wobbly card-house-of-lies is gonna implode all on their own. Tabloids smell blood in the water. No need for tip offs or sliming or anything other than the TRUTH to slowly but surely leak on out. Its a new age. The age of love children on the cover of national rags, rather than quietly whispered about. Consider the VP candidacy death watch commenced. Hey, at least McCain will get to pick his BFF Lieberman now!

Bwahahahahaha.

And look what it took ... McCain can''t help himself around a pretty face ... again.

ps-- I *am* sorry that a few teenagers and an innocent baby or two are getting hurt by this scandal. Wish their parents hadn''t set them up for disaster though. Great judgment, right? Heartbeat away from the Oval Office style ''judgment''? Think NOT.

Me neither! It just gets better and better!

 

[iheartscience]

Date: 9/2/2008 2:44:36 PM
Author: vespergirl

Date: 9/2/2008 2:23:47 PM
Author: thing2of2

Date: 9/2/2008 1:05:32 PM
Author: Black Jade



Dear thing2of2:
What statistics state that most teens who get pregnant are using birth control?

Two-thirds of all pregnancies, which would include teen pregnancies certainly, happen to people using birth control. Many of us married moms could bear witness that one of our kids was not planned, even though we were being perfectly responsible. Is this a risk you want to take with your teen?

And what information do you have that points to the idea that abortion is more traumatic than teen pregnancy?

Here''s just one article detailing the effects on many women of having had an abortion.
http://www.abortionfacts.com/reardon/after_effects_of_abortion.asp

Here''s a group of women speaking for themselves, after abortions.
http://www.silentnomoreawareness.org/index.html

It''s embarrassing to be pregnant as a teenager, but hardly ''traumatic'', by contrast. YOur life is interrupted, and probably your parents are angry at you. But with the proper support, you can go on, continue your education later, and either raise your child or give it to a loving people. There is a shortage of adoptable babies in the US.
I had a friend who was unintentionally pregnant once and within 24 hours was able to locate a family who was willing to pay her medical costs, care for her until she had the baby, and then to adopt her child. There are agencies that specialize in doing this kind of thing. (My friend was not a teenager BTW. And unfortunately, she chose, as a married woman, to go ahead with her abortion, although even her husband begged her to have the child).

Proper support, is of course, ESSENTIAL. That is why I support agencies in my community that stay with the mother through the pregnancy and for YEARS afterwards, meeting financial and emotional needs. There are many such agencies that do not get any publicity whatsoever--or only negative publicity.

I used to believe abortion was an important ''choice'' BTW and even worked in a clinic where they processed very early abortions as a young girl. I was able to do this until I saw my first ultrasound. I do not judge people for being pro-abortion, if they are misinformed about it actually being a baby in there--I believe it is easy to be misinformed in our society with all the rhetoric about ''choice'' and ''fetuses''. It is sad, however, to continue to be willfully misinformed. Or to be aware that a child is being killed and give yourself some argument about expediency as in ''it''s better for this child not to be born than to...''


IFurthermore, I''ve seen no evidence that suggests teen sex is unhealthy and/or scarring. In many countries in Europe it is common and accepted that teenagers are going to experiment with each other, and something tells me Europeans are a lot less ''scarred'' than Americans when it comes to sex.

Hmm. What countries? How do you know that Europeans aren''t scarred and Americans are? I used to live in Europe and would be interested in this part of your reply.

Amicably in disagreement,
Black Jade

I''m not interested in all women, I''m interested in teen pregnancy. Do you have any sources that state that most teen pregnancies occur in teens who use contraceptives?

As for your two sources regarding the traumatic effects of abortion, I was looking for scientific research. I''m sure some women were traumatized by having abortions. I''m sure some women were traumatized by being pregnant teens. I think even more women would be traumatized if they didn''t even have the option to have an abortion.

Being a teenage mother isn''t only embarassing, it''s completely life-changing.

As for teenagers having sex in Europe, one country I know of that doesn''t think teen sex is the end of the world is Sweden. I read a great article on Washingtonpost.com a while ago about the very different attitudes two parents had towards teenage sexuality. The mother was American and the father was Swedish. I''ll try to find the link later.

Furthermore, I know a lot of Swedish people (my SIL is Swedish and so are several of my friends) and all of them say that sex among teenagers is pretty much expected and is not seen as a big deal, let alone emotionally scarring.

I think what''s ''scarring'' is the Puritanical attitude Americans have towards sex. If we saw sex as a natural part of life and didn''t tie it to eternal damnation, I bet most people wouldn''t be ''scarred'' at all.

Thing2, you must be my long lost twin because we think alike!

I have agreed with all of your posts on this thread - very eloquent and well-informed.

I''ve already got one twin, but I''ll take another!

Especially one who agrees with me on everything (at least on this thread!)!

 

[Anna0499]

I thought Obama was going to win this race by a comfortable margin, but judging from the uproar over a candidate's personal life and the amount of work liberal bloggers are putting into discrediting Palin on grounds other than her politics, I can tell that they are very worried. I have seen no Republican backlash, outrage, or otherwise concerning Palin that liberals *think* Republicans should feel. If Palin does step down, which I don't think she will because everything is already out there, I highly doubt Lieberman would get the nod...going from a staunch pro-lifer to a pro-choice independent would lose McCain more votes than Palin ever would.

 

[HollyS]

Date: 9/2/2008 6:29:54 PM
Author: IndyGirl22
I thought Obama was going to win this race by a comfortable margin, but judging from the uproar over a candidate''s personal life and the amount of work liberal bloggers are putting into discrediting Palin on grounds other than her politics, I can tell that they are very worried. I have seen no Republican backlash, outrage, or otherwise concerning Palin that liberals *think* Republicans should feel. If Palin does step down, which I don''t think she will because everything is already out there, I highly doubt Lieberman would get the nod...going from a staunch pro-lifer to a pro-choice independent would lose McCain more votes than Palin ever would.

Yep. The only people talking about this are the liberals. "OMG, her daughter''s pregnant!" So what? "OMG, her husband had a DUI twenty-odd years ago!!" And?

Obviously, they are of low moral and ethical character, just like all Republicans.

And certainly not fit to fill the shoes once worn by Bill Clinton.

 

[decodelighted]

Wonder how the pro-Palin folks are gonna feel when she pulls out? Or when even more truths tumble forward. SQUEE!! It''s like CHRISTMAS in Sept.!

Darn liberals & their pesky "bloggers". Are they "whiners" like the rest of the country, according to McCain? Or just so tech-savvy that they know how many houses they own because they can access ZILLOW?

**happydance**

 

[HollyS]

Galateia: It is quite unnecessary to respond for someone else.

And, quite frankly, I''m a little tired of the idea that if I question someone''s sources, or where their opinion was formed, that this is not a legitimate discussion point. It is.

What I responded to, and you came to defense of, was a post -- directed at me personally -- that questioned my motives and indicated that I was just being contentious.

Obviously this thread is for people who think alike, vote alike, act alike. The remainder of us do not get to reply without being accused of acting with ill will. IndyGirl, myself, diamondfan . . . we''ve all been scolded. I''d say it has less to do with ''how'' we post and more to do with how we vote.