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FCD: Advice purchasing orange diamond?

L

luigivampa

Rough_Rock
Joined
Oct 24, 2012
Messages
8
I am new. This is my first post. I apologize for gaffes.

Does anyone have advice from personal experience about purchasing an orange diamond? Straight orange is out of my price range, but something like yellow orange or yellowish orange is still quite nice and considerably lower expense. My intention for the gem is to make it the centerpiece of a ring, so comments from anyone with strong opinions or experience on that topic are also most welcome.

One concern is that the dealer in fancy colors like orange will have such a huge information advantage over me considering my relative lack of sophistication that I will get fleeced. But this forum has been a wonderful learning tool, so far.

These are some examples of what interests me:
http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/8734.htm
http://www.fancycolordiamond.net/search/fancy_colored_diamond_details.cfm?id=6222

Many thanks for any assistance,

L.Vampa
 
HI Luigi,
I love orange diamonds!!

As you've probably learned, pure orange is incredibly rare- and expensive like blue in diamonds.

Combining with yellow or brown will decimate that price.

In terms of how to buy: By all means speak to dealers- ask questions, and see who you feel comfortable with.
Personally I like to see multiple photos and a video if possible.

Also if you're thinking about a ring, I'd definitely consider that along with the diamond. Different settings have a different effect on color of the diamond.
 
I agree that a pure orange is out of most people's budgets but a yellowish orange or orangish yellow is a good way to get close without breaking the bank. Leibish is a great vendor to work with and since both are from them, why not ask them for their opinion on both FCDs? Even though the pear is graded at I1, the colour speaks to me far more than the radiant. I think it could end up eye clean in person too, so that's another question you should ask Leibish.
 
Thank you Chrono. The pear is from Ishay Ben-David and the radiant is from Leibish. I read here (e.g. Kenny) that there may be an affiliation between the two, but I did not find anything that confirmed or clarified the relationship. I will take your advice and inquire.
 
Thank you, RD.

In my limited experience, when brown is the modifier it eats up the fire/sparkle/radiance/brilliance. In contrast, that does not seem to happen with yellow. So I have started to rule out stones where brown is a modifier. Do you agree, or am I making a mistake to rule out brown orange? While I have learned about how nitrogen and boron cause yellow and blue colors, I don't know what causes the brown (what is a lattice defect?), which does not even seem to be a hue per GIA. But on the other hand, brown seems to be used to describe color and is not simply the presence of "extinction."

Also, in my limited experience, when yellow is vivid it sometimes looks a little orange but the color looks more brown to me than orange when I compare the vivid yellow or the orange yellow to the yellow orange. Is my extrapolation safe, or are there plenty of orange yellows that look very close to yellow orange?
 
You're welcome!
No, I can't say that I've found brown is an automatic sparkle killer.
In fact,what I have found, when it comes to diamonds in the orange family- is that the color has subtle implications- so that two diamonds graded exactly the same by GIA can look totally different.
I've seen drop dead gorgeous orange brown combinations.

When judging Vivid Yellow/Orange combinations, this is also true, in my experience.
I agree- some stones graded "Fancy Vivid Yellow" by GIA have an orange tint, that may be strangely un-attractive.

Unfortunately, there's no workable set of rules for this.
 
luigivampa|1351199588|3292397 said:
I read here (e.g. Kenny) that there may be an affiliation between the two, but I did not find anything that confirmed or clarified the relationship.
Click to expand...

Let me clarify my "affiliation" or "relationship" with Leibish.
I am a 20-time customer, and clearly a very loyal and devoted one.
Here is my FCD safari: [URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fancy-colored-diamond-collection.159746/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/fancy-colored-diamond-collection.159746/[/URL]
Leibish's selection, integrity, and service is superb.

Leibish has sold me a fully-natural GIA-graded pure Red, pure Fancy Intense Blue, and pure Fancy Intense Green diamond ... but I've yet to buy a pure Orange.
So few come up for sale.
Also my eyeballs and aesthetic finds many Yellowish-Orange diamonds to be more attractive than many pure Oranges I have seen - even though I realize nature makes pure Orange much more rare.

The closest I have to Orange is this GIA VS1, Fancy Vivid Yellowish-Orange Pear.
It has stunning light performance, a rarity in colored diamonds as FCDs are almost always cut to strengthen the color and for, NOT light performance.

http://www.fancydiamonds.net/view_diamonds/3203.htm

Here's a macro pic I took, my hobby and passion:



Color is 100% personal.
There is no right or wrong or "best" color.
Just because the market has established what's more expensive, read rare, you are free to decide what hue, tone, and saturation you prefer.
I find many of the vivid yellows, vivid orange and vivid yellowish oranges to be too harsh and brash for my taste.
I prefer a very clean and fresh color in that corner of the rainbow.
If you find one with a bit of brown that you like (either graded Brownish Orange, Brownish Yellowish Orange or even Yellowish Orange or Orange by GIA with a bit of Brown but not enough to earn a Brownish grade by GIA), buy it; it will be wonderfully-priced because of the Brown.

If you honestly prefer pure Orange and can afford one in your size then buy it.
You'll have one of the most rare baubles on earth.
But DO set prices aside for a moment and pay attention to what your eyes truly prefer, independent of rarity or price.
If you are lucky, what you prefer may be more affordable than what GIA grades as pure Fancy Vivid or Fancy Intense Orange.

screen_shot_2012-10-25_at_7.png
 
Thank you Kenny.

My reference to you and the "affiliation" was unclear, I apologize. What I meant was that some posts have suggested there may be a relationship between Leibish and Ishay-Ben David. Whether there is, and the nature of the relationship, I do not know. My intention was simply to point out that the two yellow orange diamonds that I had posted were from the two firms and not both from Leibish. And I did notice your appreciation for Leibish from your many helpful posts. And I saw some photos of your rainbow collection also. They are magnificent (awesome colors and clarity). You exhibit what appears to be very distinguishing taste and patience.

Thank you for the encouragement to be guided by my own preference rather than what is rare or expensive. What I am learning is that experience counts for a lot here. The more FCDs that one gets to see, the more intelligence one gathers and the better decisions one can make. I have only seen two oranges with no modifiers. One was superb and one was not inspiring, certainly less inspiring than yellow oranges I have seen.

Anyway, I'm on my way with some good help. Thanks again.
 
Thanks.

I believe some of the people in Israel who run Leibish are related to the folks in NY who run Ishay-Ben David.
But my understanding is they are totally separate companies and, in fact, competitors.
They are certainly not two locations of the same company and one does not own the other.
 
Ishay and Leibish were indeed 'in cahoots' at one time. For example, when I returned the pure orange that I bought last year, it was one of Leibish's stones but I was directed to return it to Ishay. There was some sort of functioning relationship at that time. However now, upon asking Aviva about another stone listed on Ishay's site, I was told that the relationship had been terminated and Leibish has set up his own office in NYC (presumably to receive returns, etc).

As for pure orange, versus modified: the pure orange I got was not for me. The hue was beautiful, but the irregular saturation (which resulted in the stone being affordable for me) was very distracting. I would prefer a larger, more saturated and vivid stone with a yellowish modifier, personally. I do understand the desirability based on rarity alone though.
 
The prettiest orange we ever had was a fancy vivid yellowish orange. I would look for something in that description range.
 
Hi,

This is a little tidbit that happened to me on PS. I purchased an 81 pt fancy deep, brownish, orange, yellow diamond. I , like you was unsure of how to evaluate this diamond even after getting the color grading, and an I1 clarity grade from GIA. I think I sort of asked for opinions of the stoe, however without a picture, just on the stats.

At the time David dissed the stone pretty badly. I don't think he liked fancy deep or any brownish in the stone. A few posts later a fellow named Tom Gelb answered my post explaining that fancy deep could be a vivid or intense on the chart and that the color that I posted for my diamond- fancy brownish, orange yellow was one of his favorite colors in a diamond. I later found out that Tom Gelb had just retired from being in charge of GIA FCD dept--the man in charge of grading FCD. After David's dissing, I felt much better. But I see David has changed his opinion , since his prices reflect that this color has grown in his esteem.

So as Kenny says, look with your own eyes. My diamond does look orange yellow. The brown does not intefere with the beauty.
I agree with Tom Kelb--pretty nice color.
 
HI Smit- is this the thread you're referring to?
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/questions-on-gia-report-for-yellow-fancy-diamond.151908/#post-2757037?hilit=deep#p2757037']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/questions-on-gia-report-for-yellow-fancy-diamond.151908/#post-2757037?hilit=deep#p2757037[/URL]

Here's the sum of my partcipation n that thread
Good answer Davi!
Sometimes a Deep colored stone might be known a "poor man's vivid"'because the color is so strong- yet the price is generally a fraction the price of a vivid
Enjoy you stone Smit!!
Click to expand...


Hi smitcompton
Green fluoresence is very rare!

To see the effect, look at the diamond in direct sunlight- it should change color from normal rrom lighting.

Maybe subtle, possibly more dramatic.
To see the maximum effect, put the diamond in the dark, and shine an ultra violet light on it - if you have one.
If not, just go to a local disco, or roller skating ring
Click to expand...

I don't see anything that "disses" your diamond, brown diamonds or deep diamonds.
Please do not attribute things to me that I have not said or written. I have NEVER expressed any of the things you said I did. Written or verbally. I believe it's wrong to "diss" someone's diamond without ever having seen it- and even then.
Thank you.
 
Hi,

A poor mans vivid? You don't think thats a negative? You like deep better now, so does Leibish. Not a poor mans stone at all.


Annette
 
HI Annette,
My apologies if you perceived that as a slight.
It was not my intent to malign anything, or anyone.
We have carried deep colored diamonds since day 1. Or at least the first time I saw one I loved- which have been many.
Surely we had already carried deep yellow diamonds when I made that post- and likely I used the same expression in my description.
 
smitcompton|1351268235|3292902 said:
Hi,

A poor mans vivid? You don't think thats a negative? You like deep better now, so does Leibish. Not a poor mans stone at all.


Annette
Click to expand...

Deep being referred to as "poor mans vivid" is a saying that has been around for a long time. I'd be very surprised if it was a saying David coined. I believe the saying to mean that you get a lot of color at a great value. Nothing is insulting about that, really. Also Vivid typically still costs quite a bit more than Deep as a rule.

I just bought my first Deep colored diamond and I don't feel like a poor man, poorer perhaps, but not quite poor.
 
justginger|1351258532|3292787 said:
Ishay and Leibish were indeed 'in cahoots' at one time. For example, when I returned the pure orange that I bought last year, it was one of Leibish's stones but I was directed to return it to Ishay. There was some sort of functioning relationship at that time. However now, upon asking Aviva about another stone listed on Ishay's site, I was told that the relationship had been terminated and Leibish has set up his own office in NYC (presumably to receive returns, etc).
Click to expand...

+1.
When I first started buying from Leibish they directed me to send returns to IBD, but no longer.
 
Thank you for the encouragement to focus on what color I like rather than what checks a box! I have a deep brown orange and it is a great color and the clarity is fine, but there is something about it that is not as lively as some of the other yellow/orange mixes that I have seen since I acquired the other. I'm glad to hear that my experience should not dissuade me from considering deep browns in the future. Ironically, the pear that nielseel posted is deep brownish orangy yellow and it looks very interesting.
 
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