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Fancy orange or O-P colour?

lissyflo

Brilliant_Rock
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Maybe they have new staff involved in the fancy coloured section at the moment? I clearly have too much free time on my hands today as I googled what you said about them not stocking O colours to see what their policy said. I got distracted by this - I love the colour (I know brown isn’t most people’s cup of tea), but would see this as a very fat pear (I now have Freddy Mercury singing “fat-bottomed girls” going round and round my head) rather than a heart as there’s no cleft to speak of at all - ? I’d love to see what the cert classifies it as.

(My knowledge of GIA classification is rudimentary at best, so that’s posed as a question to those with more knowledge rather than statement of fact about JA’s classification!)
2161DD16-C2FA-4B5E-81E0-C8CDAC7935F1.jpeg
 

tripleX

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74
Maybe they have new staff involved in the fancy coloured section at the moment? I clearly have too much free time on my hands today as I googled what you said about them not stocking O colours, to see what their policy said. I got distracted by this - I love the colour (I know brown isn’t most people’s cup of tea), but would see this as a very fat pear (I now have Freddy Mercury singing “fat-bottomed girls” going round and round my head) rather than a heart as there’s no cleft to speak of at all - ? I’d love to see what the cert classifies it as.

(My knowledge of GIA classification is rudimentary at best, so that’s posed as a question to those with more knowledge rather than statement of fact about the classification!)
2161DD16-C2FA-4B5E-81E0-C8CDAC7935F1.jpeg
They only offer M colour and better. It’ll be written somewhere (hopefully), but you can see what their colour scale goes up to.

This diamond looks awesome! I’d say it’s a function of the shape/colour/positioning that makes it look misleading, but I’ll leave it to the experts :)
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
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22,334
I wish JA would include these tinted stones and up their range on their Display page to N-Z. That way if anyone would like a lightish yellow
they still have access to the stones via JA. Just my opinion though.

Sometimes things go wrong when the database of diamonds gets loaded. Unfortunately, the Sales Associate's response didnt help.
I'm glad its getting worked out though. Hopefully, this hasnt tainted your diamond hunting experience @tripleX. :shifty: I hope you find something
you love!
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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11,374
Maybe they have new staff involved in the fancy coloured section at the moment? I clearly have too much free time on my hands today as I googled what you said about them not stocking O colours to see what their policy said. I got distracted by this - I love the colour (I know brown isn’t most people’s cup of tea), but would see this as a very fat pear (I now have Freddy Mercury singing “fat-bottomed girls” going round and round my head) rather than a heart as there’s no cleft to speak of at all - ? I’d love to see what the cert classifies it as.

(My knowledge of GIA classification is rudimentary at best, so that’s posed as a question to those with more knowledge rather than statement of fact about JA’s classification!)
2161DD16-C2FA-4B5E-81E0-C8CDAC7935F1.jpeg
Stones like the above are tricky for JA and others to classify with shape because it's not exactly a pear, nor is it exactly a heart. I think it's closer to a non-clefted heart vs a pear, but that's just IMHO. My guess is that GIA calls it a heart, but I wuold check on the cert. I love the color!
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I had the check this out for myself.
I just took these screen captures of "Fancy Orange" diamonds.
One is from Leibish.com, and the other is from the Fancy Colored Diamond section of James Allen.com.

One is $33,700, and the other is $370.
Which one do you think is deceptive and false advertising?

This is not a pitchfork. :nono:


Screen Shot 2020-08-10 at 5.29.03 PM.png
 
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kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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28,862
GIA grades diamonds mined from the ground on two scales, the D-Z scale and the Fancy Colored Diamond, FCD, scale.

GIA gives them get totally different grading reports on which color is either a letter (or two) from D-Z or, for FCDs, the hue or combination of hues.
They are not even graded by the same departments at GIA.

Diamond color grades are not interchangeable opinion-related things - especially between these GIA's two categories.
What GIA calls is it, as they say, gospel.

The final retail buyer is free to fib about the carat size, but the seller is not.
(S)he's free to call their GIA-graded O-P a fancy-orange FCD diamond, but the seller is not.
Why? See my post above showing the price difference, from $370 to $33,700.
A retail seller claiming a $370 thing is equivalent to a $33,700 thing is not okay.
Very much not okay.

If JA honestly felt that $370 diamond actually was an FCD of pure Fancy orange color (worth over $30,0000) wouldn't they have sent it back to GIA to get the correct grading report?

I see this as little different than selling an 0.4 ct diamond for $370 but stating that it's 10 ct.
Sellers cant' get away with that with carat weight because it's easy to measure, but they get away with this with FCDs because so many buyers are poorly informed.
There is high demand for certain pretty colors, but the price is prohibitive.

Diamonds GIA graded as FCDs are much more expensive, certain colors are astronomically more expensive.
Orange is one of those crazy-expensvie colors, especially pure orange, where there is no other modifying hues like yellow or brown.
 
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kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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In summary:

JA needs to get diamonds that GIA graded D-Z (IOW not FCDs) out of their FCD section.
Also they need to stop describing the color grades of these D-Z diamonds with the color grades that GIA reserves for FCDs, rather call them what GIA called them, a grade from D-Z.
Train employees ... better yet have them read this thread to understand why this matters are how getting it wrong damages customer's perception of JA.

Then IMO JA's public apology on PS is in order.
 
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tripleX

Rough_Rock
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Jul 16, 2020
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74
In summary:

JA needs to get diamonds that GIA graded D-Z (IOW not FCDs) out of their FCD section.
Also they need to stop describing the color grades of these D-Z diamonds with the color grades that GIA reserves for FCDs, rather call them what GIA called them, a grade from D-Z.
Train employees ... better yet have them read this thread to understand why this matters are how getting it wrong damages customer's perception of JA.

Then IMO JA's public apology on PS is in order.
I did some more digging and found the same issues with stones that were graded I from IGI which appeared in their green fancy section.

I spoke to JA (senior staff) and they are on the issue. Currently unable to access coloured stones on JA.

I'm glad I posted here. I am curious how long this had been going on for!
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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... I'm glad I posted here. I am curious how long this had been going on for!
Me too.

I don't know because stopped shopping at JA (and stopped recommend them) when they stopped posting grading reports.
Anyone remember when that was?
1, 2, 3 years ago?

Hope this fiasco results in JA bringing back posted grading reports, like many other PS vendors.
Whiteflash doesn't make shoppers reveal their personal identity, email address or phone number, which the phone call recipient can see when we call a toll free number.
 
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monipod

Shiny_Rock
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Jun 25, 2019
Messages
390
Has someone requested the GIA report for these stones? Or has someone already done that and these stones are definitely classified as O-P colour? Sorry but I lost track of the argument :|

I mean, I can kinda see some orange, in the same way some brown tinted stones have a hint of pink.
 

tripleX

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 16, 2020
Messages
74
Has someone requested the GIA report for these stones? Or has someone already done that and these stones are definitely classified as O-P colour? Sorry but I lost track of the argument :|

I mean, I can kinda see some orange, in the same way some brown tinted stones have a hint of pink.
Yes me (the OP) has requested the GIA cert and was sent it. I did this before I posted (see my first post - you’ll see the stone from JA and the GIA report).

I see what you mean Re the orange, I’m unsure what a P-O stone would look like, but I’m assuming exactly that. I believe there’s 1000+ different coloured and shades etc they can grade on, so I guess they have it accurate.

The IGI report I saw for a fancy green was graded at colour I, with the comments “light yellow/green tinge” or something like that.

I think part of the issue is that some stones can have tints, such as green or brown. But this doesnt mean it is a green or brown stone. I have heard before of a white stone with a green tinge that when the stone was cut in half, looked very green inside.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
28,862
Has someone requested the GIA report for these stones? Or has someone already done that and these stones are definitely classified as O-P colour? Sorry but I lost track of the argument :|

I mean, I can kinda see some orange, in the same way some brown tinted stones have a hint of pink.
Perhaps this will help.
Below are screen captures I just took from James Allen's Fancy Colored Diamonds site.
Many diamonds listed there don't belong since they are obviously D-Z diamonds, not FCDs.
Their white color AND the way way lower price supports that these are misrepresentations of FCDs that do not belong in JA's FCD section.
If the font is too small to read on my screen captures go the www.jamesallen.com and click to their FCD section and look at the orange, then the greens to see the prices of the misplaced white diamonds

Also, another clue these don't belong in the FCD pile: many are white rounds with nice hearts and arrows patterns - but FCDs are nearly always cut to maximize body color NOT for light performance.
They only H&A round FCD I recall seeing was an exceptional Eightstar blue, probably priced 6 or 7- figure.

Besides so many of these not looking orange or green (since photography and everyone's monitors influence the appearance of hue) it is ONLY the independent lab grading report that is the authority on which category (D-Z or FCD) a diamond is in - and where it belongs on the site of a vendor that sells both D-Z diamonds and FCDs.

Identifying real FCDs from D-Zs is not rocket science from these screen captures.
JA has made this mistake many times.

Based on the OP's reports I only looked at orange and green, so I don't know how many mistakes, if any, JA has also made in the other hues.

Orange.png



Green.png
 
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monipod

Shiny_Rock
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Jun 25, 2019
Messages
390
@kenny Thanks for that. Funnily with the screenshots appearing on my screen in the probable size they appear in real life, pretty much all the orange stones look brown-ish and dare I say GIA would grade them orange-ish brown? They certainly aren't spessartite garnet orange that's for sure. The same could be said for the fancy greens with most having enough grey/yellow/brown in them.
It seems like a way to inflate their inventory rather than an attempt to profit? I have only had positive experiences with JA but I don't doubt that some vendors push the envelope. Saying something that is FCD when GIA says otherwise isn't great of course. I'd rather JA have a scale of regular D-Z diamonds with a tint if people want to see the orange/pink etc. in a stone.
 
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monipod

Shiny_Rock
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Jun 25, 2019
Messages
390
Yes me (the OP) has requested the GIA cert and was sent it. I did this before I posted (see my first post - you’ll see the stone from JA and the GIA report).

I see what you mean Re the orange, I’m unsure what a P-O stone would look like, but I’m assuming exactly that. I believe there’s 1000+ different coloured and shades etc they can grade on, so I guess they have it accurate.
Thanks! Sorry about that. It was further down the thread but I found it. Ahh! Yeah... It's questionable to do an in-house assessment of a stone if GIA says otherwise :(

This is an awesome chart from GIA: https://www.gia.edu/doc/ColDiaChartBklt.pdf

It shows you how even O-P stones can vary widely in tone/colour. Most O-P stones usually have that 'cape' yellow tint but I've seen enough GIA reports with 'O-P (brownish tint)' so I never assume that two O-P stones will look the same. BUT! They certainly aren't FCD as far as GIA is concerned.

I mean, I do see the ever-so-slight orange tint in the stone. I like how someone said it's like glass after orange juice was drunk out of it... I'd totally welcome JA to have a filter that selects diamonds that their in-house gemologists deem to have a tint in it, as long as they are transparent about the stone being a D-Z diamond.
 
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kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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@kenny Thanks for that. Funnily with the screenshots appearing on my screen in the probable size they appear in real life, pretty much all the orange stones look brown-ish and dare I say GIA would grade them orange-ish brown? They certainly aren't spessartite garnet orange that's for sure. The same could be said for the fancy greens with most having enough grey/yellow/brown in them.
It does seem like an attempt to inflate their inventory rather than an attempt to profit? I have only had positive experiences with JA but it doesn't surprise me if vendors push the envelope in terms of what is legally OK to do or not. Saying something that is FCD when GIA says otherwise isn't great of course. I'd rather JA have a scale of regular D-Z diamonds with a tint if people want to see the orange/pink etc. in a stone.
Few vendors carry those very rare and best-colored FCDs.
Leibish has some, but the very best are $$$.
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Aug 14, 2009
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20,936
Whoa, guys.

Do y'all have any idea how easy it would be to batch tag and upload incorrectly? I'm confident the miscategorization itself is just a data error.
The only thing that's worth questioning is the sales rep's attempt to justify the error as intentional... And the most likely explanation for that is "poor training", and PS admin has already brought these issues to JA's attention.

At this point trawling inventory to find and denounce all their other data errors - which are most likely all caused by the same fundamental bug - is both perfectly pointless and, I gotta say, pretty pitchfork-ey. At least give them a chance to remediate the situation.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I did some more digging and found the same issues with stones that were graded I from IGI which appeared in their green fancy section.

I spoke to JA (senior staff) and they are on the issue. Currently unable to access coloured stones on JA.

I'm glad I posted here. I am curious how long this had been going on for!
I don't think this has been an issue for long. Like I said earlier, I window shop their FCDs more often than I should, and this is the first time I have ever seen stones that are clearly d-z in the FCD section. So I'm assuming that this was a batch stone upload that got mislabeled (both in orange and green sections).
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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28,862
Whoa, guys.

Do y'all have any idea how easy it would be to batch tag and upload incorrectly? I'm confident the miscategorization itself is just a data error.
The only thing that's worth questioning is the sales rep's attempt to justify the error as intentional... And the most likely explanation for that is "poor training", and PS admin has already brought these issues to JA's attention.

At this point trawling inventory to find and denounce all their other data errors - which are most likely all caused by the same fundamental bug - is both perfectly pointless and, I gotta say, pretty pitchfork-ey. At least give them a chance to remediate the situation.
I believe JA will correct this.
They have to.

But, as shown in post #1 here (and reposted below), a JA employee typing in Fancy Orange for color three times on JA's listing is not a "batch tagging" error.
It even took understanding of GIA's color grading system to assigning the term Fancy.
I can imagine no way an uninformed person could translate O-P to "Fancy".
Nobody who understood both of GIA's color grading systems could do this as an honest mistake.

I understand lots about FCDs, am very alert to ethics about their oft-dishonest marketing, am protective of PS's reputation, and I'm not afraid to share what I know to be true.

It's not a pitchfork.
It's not my fault this looks bad.
It is bad.

I'm looking forward to a positive resolution for JA.


Screen Shot 2020-08-10 at 11.42.36 PM.png


Screen Shot 2020-08-10 at 11.37.57 PM.png
 
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yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Noone is manually inputting any information about these stones. If JA was paying people to do this they'd have gone broke a long time ago. I guarantee the input process is automated, and I guarantee that multiple text fields read from the same source - which is why you're seeing the error replicated in different parts of the listing/description. This is how webpages are designed to work. And whatever mistake that input scripting/automation currently contains will be replicated across every listing that is created using it, so multiple stones will be categorized incorrectly.
 

monipod

Shiny_Rock
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Jun 25, 2019
Messages
390
Ack! I went off on a tangent which may have suggested that I agreed that JA classified a regular stone as a FCD on purpose. That wasn't my intention sorry! I'm inclined to believe there was a simple error as was relayed to the OP.

I guess what I was trying to say was that I welcome a market for regular D-Z stones that have enough of a tint (brown, pink, orange etc.), however slight, for a gemologist to mention it to customers who don't have the budget for a true FCD.

Definitely a happy JA customer here and I don't own a pitchfork :)
 

lissyflo

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1,089
Stones like the above are tricky for JA and others to classify with shape because it's not exactly a pear, nor is it exactly a heart. I think it's closer to a non-clefted heart vs a pear, but that's just IMHO. My guess is that GIA calls it a heart, but I wuold check on the cert. I love the color!
@lovedogs , I just wanted to say that this popped up on my IG earlier. It looks like your thinking is spot on as it’s a very similar shape to the fancy brown stone I posted above and says it’s definitely a GIA heart. (Sorry OP for going off at a tangent!)

B5C29CB9-1046-40F6-BDF0-3E85C9DB790F.png
 

lissyflo

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Was there ever an update on this in another thread? I was perusing stones the other day and noticed that there is still a handful of stones in the fancy orange section that I’d assume unless told otherwise are mid- to low- alphabet stones, and also a couple in the green fancy section where the pictures really don’t seem to marry up to the colour description.

I’ll freely admit that I’m no fancy coloured diamond expert (!), but the stones that caused me to do a double-take all share the common feature of having no data in the ‘overtones’ part of the product description: the stones that actually look like fancies show details for colour, overtones and intensity, while the stones that look similar to the ones OP originally raised show details for only colour and intensity.

Given the original post was raised a month ago I would have thought they’d have caught them all by now? It must be easy to do a data sweep for all the stones with an empty data field for ‘overtones’ and double check their description so that no one is potentially misled?
 

monipod

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jun 25, 2019
Messages
390
Was there ever an update on this in another thread?
I don't think so? I popped a few of those stones in my wishlist on JA (I actually quite liked them) but they are no longer available so either snapped up, or reclassified, or never to be shown again?
 

tripleX

Rough_Rock
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Jul 16, 2020
Messages
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Was there ever an update on this in another thread? I was perusing stones the other day and noticed that there is still a handful of stones in the fancy orange section that I’d assume unless told otherwise are mid- to low- alphabet stones, and also a couple in the green fancy section where the pictures really don’t seem to marry up to the colour description.

I’ll freely admit that I’m no fancy coloured diamond expert (!), but the stones that caused me to do a double-take all share the common feature of having no data in the ‘overtones’ part of the product description: the stones that actually look like fancies show details for colour, overtones and intensity, while the stones that look similar to the ones OP originally raised show details for only colour and intensity.

Given the original post was raised a month ago I would have thought they’d have caught them all by now? It must be easy to do a data sweep for all the stones with an empty data field for ‘overtones’ and double check their description so that no one is potentially misled?
Hi guys! OP here. I ended up discussing this issue with one of the founders. They fixed the Orange section at that time, but there was still an issue with the green colour and I alerted them to this. I might check this and follow them up about it.

To be honest I wasn’t very gladdened by their response. They could have been a little more thankful for bringing it to their attention.
 
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