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Fancy orange or O-P colour?

tripleX

Rough_Rock
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Jul 16, 2020
Messages
74
Hi guys,

A bunch of diamonds on James Allen appear under their coloured section and look like these screenshots below. They say fancy orange etc.

However, when inspecting the GIA certificate they O-P for the colour grade.

Is this O-P referring to the normal D-Z range for colourless diamonds? Or are these actually fancy orange diamonds?

If they are not fancy orange, how can James Allen advertise them as such?

Thanks! E81EE932-D84B-46C3-8A4E-D6D030E3F3EA.png E66CD516-F254-465F-BF60-E8F613BC9CA4.png
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
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JA uploaded them incorrectly.
This one’s whatever GIA states, sounds like that’s O/P - on the D-Z scale, which is colourless-yellow (and/or brown). Nothing orange about it!

 
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lissyflo

Brilliant_Rock
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1,091
Have you requested the GIA docs from James Allen for some of them, as certs are no longer viewable online? You’d hope they would have double checked the stone listing to GIA report once someone requested a copy and realised their error. A 0.4ct VVS1 fancy orange for £300 is a bit of a red flag for an error!

(Not to harp back to old threads, but having the GIA report freely and easily available online would really help customers who aren’t au fait with pricing not waste their time considering options on errors like this.) ETA - bit in brackets is really badly worded - sorry!
 
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tripleX

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 16, 2020
Messages
74
JA uploaded them incorrectly.
This one’s whatever GIA states, sounds like that’s O/P - on the D-Z scale, which is colourless-yellow (and/or brown). Nothing orange about it!

Have you requested the GIA docs from James Allen for some of them, as certs are no longer viewable online? You’d hope they would have double checked the stone listing to GIA report once someone requested a copy and realised their error. A 0.4ct VVS1 fancy orange for £300 is a bit of a red flag for an error!

(Not to harp back to old threads, but having the GIA report freely and easily available online would really help customers who aren’t au fait with pricing not waste their time considering options on errors like this.) ETA - bit in brackets is really badly worded - sorry!
Thanks! They did send me the GIA cert and it is not fancy orange.

I asked how is it possible? The representative told me that it is outside of a colourless diamond that they hold, so it is classed as coloured.

They said it had orange overtones and that’s why it’s listed as orange. So it’s not orange, it’s not fancy, and the GIA cert needs to be asked for (not there to view).

Is this a big error on their part? There are a few stones like that!

If anything, it looks more yellow than orange...
 

lissyflo

Brilliant_Rock
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Thanks! They did send me the GIA cert and it is not fancy orange.

I asked how is it possible? The representative told me that it is outside of a colourless diamond that they hold, so it is classed as coloured.

They said it had orange overtones and that’s why it’s listed as orange. So it’s not orange, it’s not fancy, and the GIA cert needs to be asked for (not there to view).

Is this a big error on their part? There are a few stones like that!

If anything, it looks more yellow than orange...
That response changes large amounts for me. A genuine mistake is one thing. The diamond in the video looks like a mid-range alphabet stone to me, which would match the GIA classification you state. Saying it’s not colourless is one thing, but they seem to be arguing that it’s correctly listed in their fancy diamond section and that their statement of colour grading (fancy) is more helpful to users than the GIA’s. Fancy colours are past the alphabet range, so the stone is not fancy, and if the GIA report states O/P then the James Allen summary should state the same or make very clear upfront that those are in-house assessments not backed by the report. If what you say is correct, and not the result of one very mis-informed employee, it’s becoming misrepresentation in my kind.

Are you able to post the GIA doc, or are you prohibited from making it publicly available as part of it being provided to you?

Qualification - my understanding of grading etc is limited and what I’ve written is my understanding. Equally though, so is that of many JA customers, and so offerings need to be fairly, accurately and ethically made on their site.

Hopefully it’s a case of one mis-informed representative... This is one of the issues that was raised in the thread when JA originally took certs offline: it becomes very easy to misrepresent and manipulate pricing and understanding.
 

lissyflo

Brilliant_Rock
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5F429E8C-5A9F-46E4-96FF-DB55E4665354.jpeg
The above is a summary of the alphabet gradings. So O/P is very light yellow, but nowhere near the fancy range (which starts below the alphabet range). So to me it definitely should not be in JA’s fancy coloured diamond section as it currently is - are they trying to blur industry accepted terms to their benefit? And is there any mention of orange on the GIA report?
 

tripleX

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 16, 2020
Messages
74
5F429E8C-5A9F-46E4-96FF-DB55E4665354.jpeg
The above is a summary of the alphabet gradings. So O/P is very light yellow, but nowhere near the fancy range (which starts below the alphabet range). So to me it definitely should not be in JA’s fancy coloured diamond section as it currently is - are they trying to blur industry accepted terms to their benefit? And is there any mention of orange on the GIA report?
There is absolutely NO mention of orange or fancy in the GIA report!
 

tripleX

Rough_Rock
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Jul 16, 2020
Messages
74
That response changes large amounts for me. A genuine mistake is one thing. The diamond in the video looks like a mid-range alphabet stone to me, which would match the GIA classification you state. Saying it’s not colourless is one thing, but they seem to be arguing that it’s correctly listed in their fancy diamond section and that their statement of colour grading (fancy) is more helpful to users than the GIA’s. Fancy colours are past the alphabet range, so the stone is not fancy, and if the GIA report states O/P then the James Allen summary should state the same or make very clear upfront that those are in-house assessments not backed by the report. If what you say is correct, and not the result of one very mis-informed employee, it’s becoming misrepresentation in my kind.

Are you able to post the GIA doc, or are you prohibited from making it publicly available as part of it being provided to you?

Qualification - my understanding of grading etc is limited and what I’ve written is my understanding. Equally though, so is that of many JA customers, and so offerings need to be fairly, accurately and ethically made on their site.

Hopefully it’s a case of one mis-informed representative... This is one of the issues that was raised in the thread when JA originally took certs offline: it becomes very easy to misrepresent and manipulate pricing and understanding.
Here is the GIA cert for one of the stones I was looking at (didn’t want to post for the fear it will be bought, but this is issue is one of importance).

It says O/P for the colour whereas the description on JA has orange as the colour. It also has fancy for the intensity. It is also listed in their coloured diamond section.

Again, the rep told me there were orange tones and that’s why it was listed as so.

This seems to me like a big error. These guys are one of the biggest in the industry, right? What if I had bought it without looking at the cert?!?! 0A19F84A-0E25-45F4-BB79-DFC5518B85A4.png 8973058E-DE2A-4CAF-B0F7-B532AEFCCB95.png 5CD804BC-4873-4E57-AFEA-9C3323BFC375.png
 

lissyflo

Brilliant_Rock
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If this is definitely a deliberate policy rather than a cluster of errors then it’s highly misleading to my mind. The video/pictures are obviously not of a fancy orange diamond, so customers can use their eyes as a sense check to what JA are suggesting, but I would be mightily annoyed if I worked for GIA. They have the GIA logo right above the heading of the diamond stating it’s a 0.3ct fancy orange but the report says nothing of the sort!

If it’s deliberate, it’s disgraceful. It’s blurring the lines of what people think they may be buying and making comparisons with other vendors extremely confusing and difficult. I assume the next stage will be to remove GIA info all together and switch to un-certed stones billed as goodness knows what...
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
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JA has never been good about training their CS associates - assertions that are either outright incorrect or misleading by omission abound. The gemologists who review light reflector imaging are much more knowledgeable.

Honestly, I think trying to find reason in whatever this rep told you is a lost cause. He’s wrong, we know it, now you know it, and we also know that his employer doesn’t care, so... Time to move on!

I have bought (several, some large and pricey) stones from JA. They have beautiful stones at fair prices. But you need to be able to shop for yourself. If you want a personalized experience that you can trust without question that is certainly something that’s available from alternate vendors, but of course you pay a premium for premium service.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Jul 31, 2014
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I think it's an error and a confused rep. I often "window shop" for fancy colored diamonds on JA and haven't seen this previously. But it's a big mistake, and they need to move the stone out of the "fancy colored diamonds' section. I would probably ask to speak with a manager bc someone needs to fix this asap.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Messages
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JA has never been good about training their CS associates - assertions that are either outright incorrect or misleading by omission abound. The gemologists who review light reflector imaging are much more knowledgeable.

Honestly, I think trying to find reason in whatever this rep told you is a lost cause. He’s wrong, we know it, now you know it, and we also know that his employer doesn’t care, so... Time to move on!

I have bought (several, some large and pricey) stones from JA. They have beautiful stones at fair prices. But you need to be able to shop for yourself. If you want a personalized experience that you can trust without worry that is certainly something that’s available from alternate vendors, but of course you pay a premium for a premium service experience.
This. Their reps are embarrassingly wrong about almost everything.
 

tripleX

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 16, 2020
Messages
74
JA has never been good about training their CS associates - assertions that are either outright incorrect or misleading by omission abound. The gemologists who review light reflector imaging are much more knowledgeable.

Honestly, I think trying to find reason in whatever this rep told you is a lost cause. He’s wrong, we know it, now you know it, and we also know that his employer doesn’t care, so... Time to move on!

I have bought (several, some large and pricey) stones from JA. They have beautiful stones at fair prices. But you need to be able to shop for yourself. If you want a personalized experience that you can trust without question that is certainly something that’s available from alternate vendors, but of course you pay a premium for premium service.
I think it's an error and a confused rep. I often "window shop" for fancy colored diamonds on JA and haven't seen this previously. But it's a big mistake, and they need to move the stone out of the "fancy colored diamonds' section. I would probably ask to speak with a manager bc someone needs to fix this asap.
Yes I know it is time to move on...but I though you all might like to know that JA has many O-Z stones that they are masquerading as fancy orange, which is kinda misleading. Most of their users might be like me - new to this.

I will let management know, thanks!
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Yes I know it is time to move on...but I though you all might like to know that JA has many O-Z stones that they are masquerading as fancy orange, which is kinda misleading. Most of their users might be like me - new to this.

I will let management know, thanks!
Yeah, I just checked and it looks like someone uploaded stones recently and marked them as "orange" when they clearly arent. The other colors don't have this issue. My guess is that a bunch of new round stones came in, and someone messed up while putting them on the website. But yes, it's a serious mistake!
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
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20,943
Platforms like Instagram have made this sort of assessment language more opaque, IMO - how many Instagram sellers will describe a brown stone as “faintly pink IRL and it’s a travesty that GIA didn’t note any pink, but of course it’s great value for you this way!” That’s probably true for a minuscule percentage of those stones...

There is, however, a clear difference (again IMO) between giving an opinion as an addendum to an independent authority’s designation, and overriding that independent authority’s designation with your own opinion for purposes of classification for formalized sales motions. The latter is what the rep you spoke to was attempting to justify; I think poorly of it but ultimately how they sort their stones is their decision. Hugely misleading, yes, but not criminal.
 

lovedogs

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Platforms like Instagram have made this sort of assessment language more opaque, IMO - how many Instagram sellers will describe a brown stone as “faintly pink IRL and it’s a travesty that GIA didn’t note any pink, but of course it’s great value for you this way!” That’s probably true for a minuscule percentage of those stones...

There is, however, a clear difference (again IMO) between giving an opinion as an addendum to an independent authority’s designation, and overriding that independent authority’s designation with your own opinion for purposes of classification for formalized sales motions. The latter is what the rep you spoke to was attempting to justify; I think poorly of it but ultimately how they sort their stones is their decision. Hugely misleading, yes, but not criminal.
I dont know....I think putting non colored stones in the colored diamond section and clearly claiming that a stone is "fancy orange" when it is neither of those things AND not having the GIA report available to contradict them borders on outright lying. Especially bc the listing says that the stone is orange "fancy " and graded by GIA, which to me says "gia calls this fancy orange". This is especially true bc that's what it means for all of their other listings in the fancy colored diamond section
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I dont know....I think putting non colored stones in the colored diamond section and clearly claiming that a stone is "fancy orange" when it is neither of those things AND not having the GIA report available to contradict them borders on outright lying. Especially bc the listing says that the stone is orange "fancy " and graded by GIA, which to me says "gia calls this fancy orange". This is especially true bc that's what it means for all of their other listings in the fancy colored diamond section
Yeah. Very true. Can't disagree!
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Messages
28,871
Such misleading misrepresentation of a product is shocking, and possibly even criminal!
This challenges my remaining trust in JA - much of which I lost when JA stopped posting GIA reports.
Why hide information? Transparency shows good faith.
I feared such shenanigans might follow JA forcing customers to reveal personal information (email address) to see grading reports. :nono:

I've reported this thread to PS admin.

If a policy correction and a public apology on PS are not forthcoming from JA I think they should be removed from PS's list of featured sponsors.
 
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tripleX

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jul 16, 2020
Messages
74
Such misleading misrepresentation of a product is shocking, and possibly even criminal!
This challenges my remaining trust in JA - much of which I lost when JA stopped posting GIA reports.
Why hide information? Transparency shows good faith.
I feared such shenanigans might follow JA forcing customers to reveal personal information (email address) to see grading reports. :nono:

I've reported this thread to PS admin.

If a policy correction and a public apology on PS are not forthcoming from JA I think they should be removed from PS's list of featured sponsors.
I’m already trying to reach out to JA’s management. If there’s a way to speak to the admins here, I will. Highly misleading.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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I’m already trying to reach out to JA’s management. If there’s a way to speak to the admins here, I will. Highly misleading.
You can click on "Report concern" at the bottom left corner of every post in any thread, or click on "Contact US" at the very bottom of this screen.
 

Karl_K

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I have notified the PS admin and a JA admin about the thread given its 10pm central time on Sunday night it might not be until tomorrow when we hear anything back.

I would say put the pitch forks down until we find out just what is going on.
 

Ella

Brilliant_Rock
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Folks, we understand everyone is upset, but usually the simplest answer is the right one.

In this case, it seems like an error compounded by a misinformed sales associate. As Karl said, please put down the pitchforks while this is researched.
 

tripleX

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Messages
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I have notified the PS admin and a JA admin about the thread given its 10pm central time on Sunday night it might not be until tomorrow when we hear anything back.

I would say put the pitch forks down until we find out just what is going on.
Folks, we understand everyone is upset, but usually the simplest answer is the right one.

In this case, it seems like an error compounded by a misinformed sales associate. As Karl said, please put down the pitchforks while this is researched.
You guys really like this pitchfork stuff hey? I was just bringing it to your attention. If this is your attitude then it’s pretty disgraceful...especially if you’re in the “trade”. People like me know nothing so rely on companies like JA to speak truth.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Folks, we understand everyone is upset, but usually the simplest answer is the right one.

In this case, it seems like an error compounded by a misinformed sales associate. As Karl said, please put down the pitchforks while this is researched.
Thank goodness this is getting the attention it deserves.
Let's hope the JA steps up to the plate and the OP may arrive at an appropriate resolution.

I do not hold a pitchfork.
... just a pen, rather a keyboard, and I wouldn't change a thing I wrote.
If what is alleged is fully accurate, calling JA onto the carpet is approprate.
I've done nothing wrong, and I resent the pitchfork reference.
 
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tripleX

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Jul 16, 2020
Messages
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It’s in the process of being resolved - they admit it isn’t fancy coloured and will remove them from the page.
 

Ella

Brilliant_Rock
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You guys really like this pitchfork stuff hey? I was just bringing it to your attention. If this is your attitude then it’s pretty disgraceful...especially if you’re in the “trade”. People like me know nothing so rely on companies like JA to speak truth.
Hi Triplex, a genuine question for you, but what else would you like us to do on a Sunday night other than say we will look into it? We are the only people in the trade here, and we just run the website.

Some in this thread were making big accusations against a business that has shown over many years to be trustworthy, and yet human, and occasionally makes mistakes. We always think it's worth getting the right information before taking action, no matter which side it is on.
 

lovedogs

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Glad to hear it's getting resolved! I didnt mean to come with pitchforks, but have been irritated with JA hiding GIA certs and having completely uninformed CS reps, and this is another example of why both policies are a problem. Thank you to PS admin and OP for helping to fix!
 

LilAlex

Brilliant_Rock
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You diamond people are spoiled! The sapphire "world" lives with this or worse every single day. Almost every eBay and IG gem is vivid cornflower or royal blue. ;)2 You'd never know there is any other kind!

I think a vendor can say whatever they like -- and the inclusion of an objective report in the ad probably strengthens rather than weakens that position.

FWIW, I have seen a profusion of O-P and lower diamonds sold as yellow on IG lately. Some of them look quite attractive -- but most things (and people) do on IG.
 

tripleX

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Messages
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Hi Triplex, a genuine question for you, but what else would you like us to do on a Sunday night other than say we will look into it? We are the only people in the trade here, and we just run the website.

Some in this thread were making big accusations against a business that has shown over many years to be trustworthy, and yet human, and occasionally makes mistakes. We always think it's worth getting the right information before taking action, no matter which side it is on.
Fair enough, just felt the use of language could have been a little less...harsh? That’s why there’s no tone on the internet :) apologies for my comment.

I’ve spoken to management and they are onto it.

I also found some other fancy green stones that were actually I coloured so I’ve let them know about that too.

It’s interesting as JA don’t stock O coloured diamonds anyway. So somehow they slipped through!
 
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