Fair Price?

[Nardster]

Also sorry for all the questions but if the HCA score was 2 for the 1.98 why are people so concerned about the dimensions? thanks, this is a great learning experience.

Everyone's advice is great, just thought I'd provide insight on this question:

Depending on the cut dimensions of the diamond, it will have varying "appearances" when looking at it from above.

I suppose you can say that this is a magnified perspective so you can't really pick up small variations of dimensions in a quick glance, I personally haven't seen enough diamonds to be able to tell whether it's shallow or deep

In the end, what matters is that you're aware of the "appearance" of the diamond you are buying.

Alright guys I went and saw the 1.98 today. I couldn't get my hands on an ASET scope but it was def "eye clean" and clean through a 10x loupe.

He also put it under the microscope at 30x and 50x and I was able to see them slightly but doesn't look anything close to as bad as the plot. basically I see two small crystals.

The price is $15.6k if I ship out of state. Given it is eye clean, are the dimensions "good" enough where you feel this is a decent deal?

As for this, I believe you've done enough research and assessment to say that is a decent deal. Personally I would still want to see it's light performance via ASET/Ideal scope however.

The concern @sledge has for your 1.98 ct is that it's deep which it's ideal & ASET scope would look like C:

As you can see, the inner white-ish circle will allow light to pass through the diamond like a window and you'll see colors of whatever's around the bottom of the diamond.

 

[tos1010]

Everyone's advice is great, just thought I'd provide insight on this question:

Depending on the cut dimensions of the diamond, it will have varying "appearances" when looking at it from above.

I suppose you can say that this is a magnified perspective so you can't really pick up small variations of dimensions in a quick glance, I personally haven't seen enough diamonds to be able to tell whether it's shallow or deep

In the end, what matters is that you're aware of the "appearance" of the diamond you are buying.



As for this, I believe you've done enough research and assessment to say that is a decent deal. Personally I would still want to see it's light performance via ASET/Ideal scope however.

The concern @sledge has for your 1.98 ct is that it's deep which it's ideal & ASET scope would look like C:

As you can see, the inner white-ish circle will allow light to pass through the diamond like a window and you'll see colors of whatever's around the bottom of the diamond.

Thanks. I appreciate your help understanding all this.

 

[tos1010]

What's most important to you -- cut, color, clarity, carat weight or cost?

What's 2nd? 3rd? ...etc

Just to recap....

• HCA is an elimination tool, not the holy grail but generally identify stones that COULD be potentially well cut.
• Angles don't lie.
• Because GIA uses funky rounding and averaging you cannot always trust the exact angles shown on a GIA report. While close, being off a little can drastically change cut quality.
• Because of the above I like to use AGS proportions chart to see if I'm "deep into" or on the "fringe" of ideal territory. If on the fringe I become concerned because of that rounding.
• 35.5 crown / 40.6 pavilion is the fringe
• If you find a potential stone, request ASET or idealscope images to confirm all the above.
• 1.98ct has a 36/40.6 angle combo and IMO pushing the fringe too much. An ASET may prove us wrong but unlikely. Even if so, you need to really make sure that is an eye clean VS2 -- the inclusion plot was nasty and I've seen many SI1's with cleaner plots.
• 1.82ct has 36.5/40.6 angle combo that is worst than the 1.98.
• 1.95ct has worst angles of all at 36.5/41, 63.1 depth and 80 LGF's. The stone is cut deep for weight, will be dark and the LGF will create a splintery look.

At the end of the day, it's your money so you can spend as you wish. The recommendations made by myself and others was to get you a kick ass stone for the money. IMO the stones your guy has presented is not kick ass at all.

Sledge last question! For 15.5k would you consider the 1.98 a decent deal given it is compeletly eye clean?

 

[sledge]

Sledge last question! For 15.5k would you consider the 1.98 a decent deal given it is compeletly eye clean?

A good deal is determined by more than price. On the surface, a 1.98ct H VS2 for $15.5k sounds like a fair deal. I'm assuming you negotiated the original asking price of $17k down a little?

I am happy the stone is indeed eye clean. While that was a concern of mine, my bigger issue had to do with the crown/pavilion angle combo of 36/40.6. It puts you on the fringe of ideal cut.

To better understand the above statement, you have to consider this is a GIA stone. TAnd also that GIA uses simplistic 2D modeling to take measurements and then uses a funky rounding/averaging technique to report the crown & pavilion angles.

• The average of eight crown angle measurements is reported to the nearest 0.5 degree.
  
• The average of eight pavilion angle measurements is reported to the nearest 0.2 degrees.

So while GIA is reporting a 36/40.6 on your stone, the reality is those angles COULD be much worse or better. Since you are pushing the fringe I dislike the angle combo.



In addition to looking at chart data, you have to consider the way that the crown & pavilion angles actually play together. There is a good article on this at the following site:

https://www.prosumerdiamonds.com/crown-angle/

I won't bore you with too many details, but here is the part I want you to think about. It was taken from the above site.

Steep-end of the Ideal Crown Angle
For a fixed table percentage, a steeper crown means that the crown is higher and the crown facets are larger. This means more incident light rays can fall onto the prism-like crowns generating more dispersion so the diamond will have more fire.

The trade-off of having a steeper crown angles is that the lower girdles tend to begin leaking light once you go over a 35-degree crown even if you have a 40.8-degree pavilion. This happens because the lower girdle angles are dependent on the pavilion angle and the lower girdle length and a steeper pavilion causes even steeper lower girdle facets.

Even with a 40.5-degree pavilion and shallow lower girdles, you really do not want the crown angle to be over 35.5 degrees.

According to standard assessments, a steep crown angle will disperse light away from the observer in the assessment. This means that although you may not be able to see the diamond’s fire, other people looking from an angle might think it has a lot of fire. Also, a higher crown means that a lot of the diamond’s weight goes into the crown height rather than the width and hence reduces its spread.

When you take the above in consideration you will begin to understand better why the HCA score comes back at 2 but has "Very Good" on Light Return & Scintillation, instead of Excellent. Typically we want to buy stones with an HCA score of 1-2 but I think I think I've provided reasoning why I don't think this stone meets that criteria.



Additionally I think if you were to obtain an ASET image, or take a scope into the store then you would find an image result similar to the following. See that ring of light colors going around the table? That is leakage, making the diamond "very good" instead of "excellent".

I'm not trying to scare you by any means. This is a lot of technical jargon to say that I am a picky buyer and demand the best CUT for my money. For me, this particular 1.98ct stone would not meet my criteria and I would reject it. To the average Joe, they would likely find the stone of acceptable quality and for the right price move forward.

Just because it's not the right decision for me does not mean it's a bad decision for you. I just value things differently and have zero desire to buy from a local guy -- just because my friends & family bought from them. I believe good vendors exist everywhere, and part of having a good relationship is dealing with someone that speaks my technical language, has the quality of products I find acceptable, pricing that is fair and good trade-up programs (because if you haven't heard, women develop this thing called Diamond Shrinkage Syndrome (DSS) and soon you will be back here upgrading to a larger stone ).

Hopefully you will find value in this response, even though it may differ from your own opinion.

 

[tos1010]

A good deal is determined by more than price. On the surface, a 1.98ct H VS2 for $15.5k sounds like a fair deal. I'm assuming you negotiated the original asking price of $17k down a little?

I am happy the stone is indeed eye clean. While that was a concern of mine, my bigger issue had to do with the crown/pavilion angle combo of 36/40.6. It puts you on the fringe of ideal cut.

To better understand the above statement, you have to consider this is a GIA stone. TAnd also that GIA uses simplistic 2D modeling to take measurements and then uses a funky rounding/averaging technique to report the crown & pavilion angles.

• The average of eight crown angle measurements is reported to the nearest 0.5 degree.
  
• The average of eight pavilion angle measurements is reported to the nearest 0.2 degrees.

So while GIA is reporting a 36/40.6 on your stone, the reality is those angles COULD be much worse or better. Since you are pushing the fringe I dislike the angle combo.



In addition to looking at chart data, you have to consider the way that the crown & pavilion angles actually play together. There is a good article on this at the following site:

https://www.prosumerdiamonds.com/crown-angle/

I won't bore you with too many details, but here is the part I want you to think about. It was taken from the above site.



When you take the above in consideration you will begin to understand better why the HCA score comes back at 2 but has "Very Good" on Light Return & Scintillation, instead of Excellent. Typically we want to buy stones with an HCA score of 1-2 but I think I think I've provided reasoning why I don't think this stone meets that criteria.



Additionally I think if you were to obtain an ASET image, or take a scope into the store then you would find an image result similar to the following. See that ring of light colors going around the table? That is leakage, making the diamond "very good" instead of "excellent".

I'm not trying to scare you by any means. This is a lot of technical jargon to say that I am a picky buyer and demand the best CUT for my money. For me, this particular 1.98ct stone would not meet my criteria and I would reject it. To the average Joe, they would likely find the stone of acceptable quality and for the right price move forward.

Just because it's not the right decision for me does not mean it's a bad decision for you. I just value things differently and have zero desire to buy from a local guy -- just because my friends & family bought from them. I believe good vendors exist everywhere, and part of having a good relationship is dealing with someone that speaks my technical language, has the quality of products I find acceptable, pricing that is fair and good trade-up programs (because if you haven't heard, women develop this thing called Diamond Shrinkage Syndrome (DSS) and soon you will be back here upgrading to a larger stone ).

Hopefully you will find value in this response, even though it may differ from your own opinion.

thanks again for taking the time to type all this out! This has been super informative...ill let you know what i decide.