Evaluating jadeite (feicui)

[Crimson]

Yes! We moved to Beijing a year and a half ago now; my husband is on a two year contract here so we’ll be leaving this summer sadly.

I spent my first year getting well acquainted with the wholesale pearl market in Beijing (Hongqiao) and have satisfied my pearl needs. So I’ve now moved onto jadeite, although I don’t trust my eyes enough to go into the wholesale gold & jade market (where quality and prices vary hugely), so I’m relying on a high end jadeite store near our apartment to train my eyes

What excellent use of, your time in Beijing, @Pomelo.
Re: walking out of a shop, the locals say there is no crime in Beijing because there are cameras everywhere!
Thanks for running the test on the pixiu. I think it has a lot to do with degree of translucency as @starstruck mentioned, and there is also something to do with the composition and crystal of the jadeite.
@Starstruck8 I enjoyed the theorizing! What if there’s no foil back? My glassy cabs have no foil back but still glow.
I have also noticed the “light eating” phenomenon with carved and not quite translucent pieces. For example, the jadeite goldfish which I showed before has is what I would consider icy glutinous, with cotton. It isn’t translucent but it perks up dramatically in artificial light. The lavender jadeite cabs in my photos did the same - and they aren’t very translucent either. Maybe the articficial light brings out the blue and lavender.
But most lavender jadeite pieces also have the problem of “见光死’ or dying(losing their colour) in daylight. I think it might be because jadeite is a composite material - not all jadeite has the same composition. In lavender jadeite, one can often see lavender intermixed with white. Perhaps a high proportion of white cotton could cause the stone to look white in daylight.

 

[Starstruck8]

@Starstruck8 I enjoyed the theorizing! What if there’s no foil back? My glassy cabs have no foil back but still glow.
I have also noticed the “light eating” phenomenon with carved and not quite translucent pieces. For example, the jadeite goldfish which I showed before has is what I would consider icy glutinous, with cotton. It isn’t translucent but it perks up dramatically in artificial light. The lavender jadeite cabs in my photos did the same - and they aren’t very translucent either. Maybe the articficial light brings out the blue and lavender.
But most lavender jadeite pieces also have the problem of “见光死’ or dying(losing their colour) in daylight. I think it might be because jadeite is a composite material - not all jadeite has the same composition. In lavender jadeite, one can often see lavender intermixed with white. Perhaps a high proportion of white cotton could cause the stone to look white in daylight.

On the foil back question: You don't need a foil back to give a reflection from the back of a cab. Ordinary reflection from the back of the cab will do. This is clearly seen in the green jadeite rings @Pomelo showed:


(Arrows indicate softened reflections from the back of the cabs)

A foil back makes brighter (and maybe less 'natural looking') reflections. That's no doubt why it's sometimes seen as 'cheating' - good material should not need a foil back to glow.

On the lavender jadeite cabs: Even with the less transparent material, I think the pictures in directional light are showing reflections from the back of the cab. See the bright rim in the photo in bright directional light (left, indicated with arrows)?:


(Left: bright directional light. Middle: rim edited out. Right: In softer light)

The bright rim is a reflection from the back (edges) of the cab. I've crudely edited it out in the middle picture. See how the stone looks less lively. In the right picture (in softer light) there is still a rim but it's much weaker.

On purple jadeite in artificial light (and dying in daylight): Yes, I've read that (in google-translated Chinese sources). My guess is that it has to do with the spectra - the different 'colours' of daylight and artificial light. But I don't know enough to say more.

Edited to add: The earrings you showed earlier are another example of glow caused by softened reflections from the back without a foil back:

 

[Pomelo]

On the foil back question: You don't need a foil back to give a reflection from the back of a cab. Ordinary reflection from the back of the cab will do. This is clearly seen in the green jadeite rings @Pomelo showed:


(Arrows indicate softened reflections from the back of the cabs)

A foil back makes brighter (and maybe less 'natural looking') reflections. That's no doubt why it's sometimes seen as 'cheating' - good material should not need a foil back to glow.

On the lavender jadeite cabs: Even with the less transparent material, I think the pictures in directional light are showing reflections from the back of the cab. See the bright rim in the photo in bright directional light (left, indicated with arrows)?:


(Left: bright directional light. Middle: rim edited out. Right: In softer light)

The bright rim is a reflection from the back (edges) of the cab. I've crudely edited it out in the middle picture. See how the stone looks less lively. In the right picture (in softer light) there is still a rim but it's much weaker.

On purple jadeite in artificial light (and dying in daylight): Yes, I've read that (in google-translated Chinese sources). My guess is that it has to do with the spectra - the different 'colours' of daylight and artificial light. But I don't know enough to say more.

Edited to add: The earrings you showed earlier are another example of glow caused by softened reflections from the back without a foil back:

Really enjoying and learning a lot from this discussion! Thought it might be apt to add a few more pics from my recent educational trip.

First, icy jadeite rings: the 4w has a foil back, the other two do not. The foil backing makes a huge difference, esp when there is movement introduced (took a screenshot of a video).

Interestingly, when I asked whether it’s lesser material that gets foil-backed, the salesperson said that’s not always the case as it’s dependent on the customer’s taste. But they did admit that foil backing of light green jadeite is used to make the material glow and appear more saturated. (I guess they have to peddle their wares somehow!)




I then compared the 4w foil-backed to a 2w foil-backed wulu (gourd). The wulu has more cotton but I actually quite liked the cotton! It diffused the bright reflections of the foil backing and made it seem more… ethereal?



Second, my favourite set of the day: light green “glass” material. These cabs were set very simply without any foil backing and it made me admire the stone for what it is.

I found out after that the store was running a ~20% off promotion (maybe even more if you push them) and just now, was informed that the ring has sold.

The cabochon in the ring was a delectable 22*19*11mm… I think I appreciate the size and glow of lighter material more now, and compared to the ~40w (similar priced) spicy and sun greens, the stronger glow plus the additional size makes it an interesting trade off for colour!



Previous imperial 400w / spicy 46w / sun 37w greens:

 

[Crimson]

Thank you, @starstruck for your thoughtful and detailed explanation! I see what you mean.
Like @Pomelo, I have thoroughly enjoyed this discussion.
Re: lavender dying in the light, I may have found an answer from a Chinese source. As a number of sources have mentioned the lavender color is caused by manganese or by iron, e.g., http://english.gyig.cas.cn/pu/Papers_of_AMS/202010/t20201012_244689.html
Those with manganese tend to be from Burma and look more pinkish purple whereas and those with iron (often from Guatemala) lean more violet.
The phenomenon of “dying in light” is seen more in jadeite coloured by manganese,
Excerpts from the post by 翡翠玉城 are attached below.
The first shows a photo of the biggest gem quality lavender jadeite in the world. It is pinkish purple.
In the second picture, we see the same piece of Jadeite which seems to have paled in the light.
The third picture provides an explanation of “ dying in light’ as being associated with manganese and Burmese but urges readers not to avoid buying the pinkish purple jadeite just for that reason. It reminds readers that the most important feature is not color, but water and transparency.

 

[Crimson]

Really enjoying and learning a lot from this discussion! Thought it might be apt to add a few more pics from my recent educational trip. ]

I then compared the 4w foil-backed to a 2w foil-backed wulu (gourd). The wulu has more cotton but I actually quite liked the cotton! It diffused the bright reflections of the foil backing and made it seem more… ethereal?



Second, my favourite set of the day: light green “glass” material. These cabs were set very simply without any foil backing and it made me admire the stone for what it is.
sold.

The cabochon in the ring was a delectable 22*19*11mm… I think I appreciate the size and glow of lighter material more now, and compared to the ~40w (similar priced) spicy and sun greens, the stronger glow plus the additional size makes it an interesting trade off for colour!

Ooh, I agree. I love the hulu. It seems to have the right amount of glow.
The pigeon’s egg is glorious! Looks heavy though. Are you tempted to buy it?

 

[Starstruck8]

Re: lavender dying in the light, I may have found an answer from a Chinese source. As a number of sources have mentioned the lavender color is caused by manganese or by iron, e.g., http://english.gyig.cas.cn/pu/Papers_of_AMS/202010/t20201012_244689.html
Those with manganese tend to be from Burma and look more pinkish purple whereas and those with iron (often from Guatemala) lean more violet.
The phenomenon of “dying in light” is seen more in jadeite coloured by manganese,
Excerpts from the post by 翡翠玉城 are attached below.
The first shows a photo of the biggest gem quality lavender jadeite in the world. It is pinkish purple.
In the second picture, we see the same piece of Jadeite which seems to have paled in the light.
The third picture provides an explanation of “ dying in light’ as being associated with manganese and Burmese but urges readers not to avoid buying the pinkish purple jadeite just for that reason. It reminds readers that the most important feature is not color, but water and transparency.

That's a spectacular stone! And a striking colour change.

The story about manganese seems right. But to spell out the rest of the story (as I infer it, possibly wrongly), 'dying in the light' is a colour shift, just like the colour shift in alexandrite and colour-change garnets. According to the article you linked (and other sources), manganese leads to a spectrum with an absorption peak at about 580nm. It's precisely such an absorption peak that causes the colour shift in alexandrite and other colour change stones. Imagine a purple (incandescent light) to green (daylight) alexandrite. Now imagine that both colours are shifted a bit so that the purple becomes more purple and the green becomes neutral. Voila! It 'dies in the light'!

This illustration from an article on colour-change garnets might make the story clearer:

(Color shift for some colour-change garnets, plotted in CIELAB coordinates.)

You could easily imagine a stone with the 'blue box' close the (neutral) centre and the 'red dot' in the pinky-purple region. Note also that for bluer stones (lower left of the diagram), there may still be colour shift, but it won't cross the centre, so no 'dying'.

The catch with this story is that there aren't many incandescent lights anywhere these days, and typical LEDs have a different spectrum. But maybe 'dying in the light' is a traditional old-time saying. And maybe they have special lighting in jewellery stores. I noticed that the Tiffany store here in Brisbane has very 'yellow' lighting, as demonstrated by my shifty purple star sapphire! This was surely a deliberate choice.

 

[Pomelo]

Ooh, I agree. I love the hulu. It seems to have the right amount of glow.
The pigeon’s egg is glorious! Looks heavy though. Are you tempted to buy it?

Haha no chance about the pigeon’s egg - it has sold already and I also don’t know enough about jade (or indeed enough spare funds) to justify it!

 

[Crimson]

That's a spectacular stone! And a striking colour change.

The story about manganese seems right. But to spell out the rest of the story (as I infer it, possibly wrongly), 'dying in the light' is a colour shift, just like the colour shift in alexandrite and colour-change garnets. According to the article you linked (and other sources), manganese leads to a spectrum with an absorption peak at about 580nm. It's precisely such an absorption peak that causes the colour shift in alexandrite and other colour change stones. Imagine a purple (incandescent light) to green (daylight) alexandrite. Now imagine that both colours are shifted a bit so that the purple becomes more purple and the green becomes neutral. Voila! It 'dies in the light'!

This illustration from an article on colour-change garnets might make the story clearer:

(Color shift for some colour-change garnets, plotted in CIELAB coordinates.)

You could easily imagine a stone with the 'blue box' close the (neutral) centre and the 'red dot' in the pinky-purple region. Note also that for bluer stones (lower left of the diagram), there may still be colour shift, but it won't cross the centre, so no 'dying'.

The catch with this story is that there aren't many incandescent lights anywhere these days, and typical LEDs have a different spectrum. But maybe 'dying in the light' is a traditional old-time saying. And maybe they have special lighting in jewellery stores. I noticed that the Tiffany store here in Brisbane has very 'yellow' lighting, as demonstrated by my shifty purple star sapphire! This was surely a deliberate choice.

Ooh, how exciting! That is such a fabulous leap! I think you are right, @Starstruck8.
That might also explain why my pinkish lavender jadeite colour shifts.
The first below is in white light and the second in yellow light.


Yes, I also have noticed that certain stores have very yellow lighting too, esp those that specialise in emeralds. It makes them look a richer green than white lights.

 

[Crimson]

Haha no chance about the pigeon’s egg - it has sold already and I also don’t know enough about jade (or indeed enough spare funds) to justify it!

Phew, thank goodness it is sold

 

[Starstruck8]

Ooh, how exciting! That is such a fabulous leap! I think you are right, @Starstruck8.
That might also explain why my pinkish lavender jadeite colour shifts.
The first below is in white light and the second in yellow light.


Yes, I also have noticed that certain stores have very yellow lighting too, esp those that specialise in emeralds. It makes them look a richer green than white lights.

That's an amazingly clean, uniform and translucent stone, @Crimson.

Yes, it seems very likely that this is a weak colour shift caused by manganese. Picky people will notice that the padding is browner in the lower photo. So the white balance must be off in at least one of the photos. But that doesn't matter, because colour shifts are almost impossible to photograph accurately anyway - look at almost any alexandrite thread. Your eyes rule - if you see a colour shift, there is a colour shift.

I'm pretty confident of my story. But it worries me a bit that none of the google-translated Chinese accounts I read put it quite that way. (To be frank, most accounts described the effect clearly but gave only waffly hand-waving explanations.) It would be good to find some authoritative story.

 

[Bookwyrm]

I have another star sapphire that is less translucent; and another star ruby that is also not as translucent. With them, it is easier to see a clear star with a focused light . The translucent stars more easily show stars in all sorts of light but the contrast between the body and star is less stark. The blue one has a higher dome so the star can move more. It is really fun to make the star run all over.
How many days? Haha., depends on how wild you want to get and how much you want to to see. There are all the designer stores on Orchard Road, including Harry Winston and Graff; Cartier, Bulgari and Tiffany. I regard them as amusement. For serious buying I would rather go where jewellers really know their stones.
I guess one could spend a day or two at Orchard Road’s big and small jewellery boutiques inc JannPaul and Asiatique, one day in Chinatown (you could probably spend a couple of hours at On Cheong itself), and one day around Raffles Hotel and the civic district. I have heard about fab jewellery shops in Little India but haven’t been to them — one of my friends bought a pendant, very intricately made of natural seed pearls. I would also suggest a special trip to Dempsey to visit one of our oldest jewelers, BP De Silva; and a trip to Caratell at Handy Road. There are also jewelers who will see you only by appointment, at an office.
Anyway, you can’t just jewelry shop. You’ll have to stop and eat, and enjoy the local sights!

Oh wow, thank you so much for all the suggestions! I will see if I can visit Singapore around Christmas this year. I've heard the food is amazing there too!

 

[Bookwyrm]

Really enjoying and learning a lot from this discussion! Thought it might be apt to add a few more pics from my recent educational trip.

First, icy jadeite rings: the 4w has a foil back, the other two do not. The foil backing makes a huge difference, esp when there is movement introduced (took a screenshot of a video).

Interestingly, when I asked whether it’s lesser material that gets foil-backed, the salesperson said that’s not always the case as it’s dependent on the customer’s taste. But they did admit that foil backing of light green jadeite is used to make the material glow and appear more saturated. (I guess they have to peddle their wares somehow!)




I then compared the 4w foil-backed to a 2w foil-backed wulu (gourd). The wulu has more cotton but I actually quite liked the cotton! It diffused the bright reflections of the foil backing and made it seem more… ethereal?



Second, my favourite set of the day: light green “glass” material. These cabs were set very simply without any foil backing and it made me admire the stone for what it is.

I found out after that the store was running a ~20% off promotion (maybe even more if you push them) and just now, was informed that the ring has sold.

The cabochon in the ring was a delectable 22*19*11mm… I think I appreciate the size and glow of lighter material more now, and compared to the ~40w (similar priced) spicy and sun greens, the stronger glow plus the additional size makes it an interesting trade off for colour!



Previous imperial 400w / spicy 46w / sun 37w greens:

Your store has the most amazing pieces! I'm loving all the pictures of glassy jadeite! I wish I could see this much jadeite in person in Australia

And this is quite unrelated to jadeite, but I just wanted to say that I love your style when it comes to jewellery! I've definitely spent a looot of time admiring your assymetrical rings, especially your toi et moi

 

[Pomelo]

Your store has the most amazing pieces! I'm loving all the pictures of glassy jadeite! I wish I could see this much jadeite in person in Australia

And this is quite unrelated to jadeite, but I just wanted to say that I love your style when it comes to jewellery! I've definitely spent a looot of time admiring your assymetrical rings, especially your toi et moi

Thank you! I’m lucky that my husband had a two year contract in Beijing so I’ve been exposed to pearls and jadeite

 

[Crimson]

I had so much fun jewellery shopping with my friends and Aunty today.
Huge “nothing happening” pendant, ‘lao keng” (old mine) intense green


Just a little everyday bracelet



More affordable pea pods, watery and intense.



Million dollar necklace - it was so heavy, and the beads were enormous.

 

[Crimson]

That's an amazingly clean, uniform and translucent stone, @Crimson.

Yes, it seems very likely that this is a weak colour shift caused by manganese. Picky people will notice that the padding is browner in the lower photo. So the white balance must be off in at least one of the photos. But that doesn't matter, because colour shifts are almost impossible to photograph accurately anyway - look at almost any alexandrite thread. Your eyes rule - if you see a colour shift, there is a colour shift.

I'm pretty confident of my story. But it worries me a bit that none of the google-translated Chinese accounts I read put it quite that way. (To be frank, most accounts described the effect clearly but gave only waffly hand-waving explanations.) It would be good to find some authoritative story.

I agree - the eyes rule.

Yes it would be good to find a more authoritative and informative story. I am sure it is out there, only limited by my (not so great) command of Chinese

 

[lycheejelly]

Hi jade admirers! I am trying to choose between a few jade pendants. Can I post them here for feedback, or should I make a new thread?

 

[mellowyellowgirl]

Hi jade admirers! I am trying to choose between a few jade pendants. Can I post them here for feedback, or should I make a new thread?

Up to you but we tend to congregate here so here works too!

 

[Crimson]

Hi jade admirers! I am trying to choose between a few jade pendants. Can I post them here for feedback, or should I make a new thread?

You are most welcome to post here, as @mellowyellowgilr said. Looking forward to seeing the pendants!

 

[lycheejelly]

Thank you for the welcome! I am trying to decide between a few leaf pendants.







Here are the links:
Lil-hong jade, ultimate jadeite 1, ultimate jadeite 2

I don't have a specific color I am after. Rather, I like when you can see the watery-ness of the jade. What does everyone think?

 

[MMtwo]

I'm rather partial to the lovely green leaf. Not sure if you have been able to try them on, but how they look on you should also fit into the equation.

 

[Crimson]

Thank you for the welcome! I am trying to decide between a few leaf pendants.







Here are the links:
Lil-hong jade, ultimate jadeite 1, ultimate jadeite 2

I don't have a specific color I am after. Rather, I like when you can see the watery-ness of the jade. What does everyone think?

Thanks for sharing. The icy blue leaf has the best water, in my opinion.
The green leaf has a nice green color. Its texture is not as fine as the blue leaf’s, and it is not what I would consider to be watery. It has more of a glutinous texture with some visible cotton. The higher asking price is probably because of its color and thickness, and less by texture or water.
The pale leaf looks quite translucent but has visible cotton. There is also a streak of black spots at the back that also show through the front. Because of its faint colour and translucency the appearance of the leaf will be affected by whatever you wear so please take that into account.
So if you are looking for colour , the green one wins.
If water, the blue one wins.
I don’t recommend the third one.
Btw are you based in Singapore? If so, I suggest going to more shops to look around.

 

[lycheejelly]

Thank you @MMtwo and @Crimson for your input! I do really like the blue one for its water, and I think the gold frame looks nice. I guess I do enjoy the green one for its color, even though I said that I didn't care much about color.

I am actually located in the US but do not have any in person stores around me that I trust. Hence trying to buy online through retailers that have gotten reviews for being trustworthy.

 

[Crimson]

Thank you @MMtwo and @Crimson for your input! I do really like the blue one for its water, and I think the gold frame looks nice. I guess I do enjoy the green one for its color, even though I said that I didn't care much about color.

I am actually located in the US but do not have any in person stores around me that I trust. Hence trying to buy online through retailers that have gotten reviews for being trustworthy.

I see. I have gone to Li-Hong a few times and can say their jadeite is good quality. I haven’t seen anything fr Ultimate Jadeite; I understand they are a home-based business.
Are you searching for leaves because of their symbolic meaning (success in work and endeavors)?
I saw a watery leaf from a jeweller that I’m going to visit tomorrow. I shall take a photo of it for you.
I like Classic Jade but they only have leaf earrings (pic below).
They also have a juicy and plump pair of lavender earrings that I couldn’t resist posting here too. Calling @mellowyellowgirl!

Have you also looked at Kathy Jade? They have quite a few leaves. @MMtwo and @Bookwyrm have had positive experiences buying from Kathy.

 

[lycheejelly]

Thank you @Crimson for the suggestions, I will check them out. It's hard for me to explain why I like the leaf shape so much. I think it's the way the light hits the undulating curves that is pleasing to my eye. The symbolism does not enter into it as much. The other shape I really like is the peach shape, because of how plump it looks and how well it holds color. I've been keeping an eye out for a lavender peach-shaped pendant, but that I haven't had much luck with. With lavender jade I prioritize the color, and it appears that the ones with good saturation are usually cut into cabochons.

 

[Crimson]

Thank you @Crimson for the suggestions, I will check them out. It's hard for me to explain why I like the leaf shape so much. I think it's the way the light hits the undulating curves that is pleasing to my eye. The symbolism does not enter into it as much. The other shape I really like is the peach shape, because of how plump it looks and how well it holds color. I've been keeping an eye out for a lavender peach-shaped pendant, but that I haven't had much luck with. With lavender jade I prioritize the color, and it appears that the ones with good saturation are usually cut into cabochons.

Here’s a highly icy/glassy leaf that I saw yesterday ! It is topped with diamonds, about 2K USD from a Singapore shop. The jeweller said it can be shipped to the US with FedEx or DHL.

 

[MMtwo]

That is a fantastic piece! You are so lucky to enjoy such lovely jadeite selections!

Just had Easter dinner with Mom and wore the lavender beads. I really love them.

 

[dster1]

Hello jade lovers, could you please help me choose between the two? Both bangles are around $11k USD. Green has tiny chip on the surface but no stone lines. Lavender has stone lines within. I love the water content in the green but the purple just draws me in. The green is about 8mm thick and lavender is 9.6mm.

 

[nyapple]

Hello jade lovers, could you please help me choose between the two? Both bangles are around $11k USD. Green has tiny chip on the surface but no stone lines. Lavender has stone lines within. I love the water content in the green but the purple just draws me in. The green is about 8mm thick and lavender is 9.6mm.

As someone who likes to spin/play with my bangles when thinking or bored, the chip (or any surface flaws really) would drive me crazy. I would never stop picking at it. How noticeable are the stone lines on the lavender?

 

[dster1]

As someone who likes to spin/play with my bangles when thinking or bored, the chip (or any surface flaws really) would drive me crazy. I would never stop picking at it. How noticeable are the stone lines on the lavender?

These are pics of the stone lines on the lavender. To be honest, it doesn’t seem too obvious but I worry about long term integrity of the bangle.

 

[Crimson]

That is a fantastic piece! You are so lucky to enjoy such lovely jadeite selections!

Just had Easter dinner with Mom and wore the lavender beads. I really love them.

Happy Easter! Such a sweet photo, @MMtwo. Hope you had a lovely dinner with your Mom. Does she like your necklace? Sending you a large art Easter egg from, Bloomsbury Park in London. The Easter egg trail is on till 27 April so I hope to see more!