Eightstars - Not my cup of tea?

[adamasgem]

Date: 5/29/2005 9:11:18 PM
Author: Garry H (Cut Nut)
http://www.ideal-scope.com/newsletters_issue003.asp
Re4 our converstaion Marty - look at the leakage contrats

''
Gary, Gary, Gary, always hyping your toy, which was a rip off of the Firescope, but doesn''t tell you the same thing.

Your Idealscope images are dependent on the angle of incidence of the backlighting, AND ARE NOT A CONTROLED CONSISTENT ENVIRONMENT, PERIOD. And they are not necessarily showing what you refer to as LEAKAGE, it is the inability to return light to the viewer in those areas of the stone that show white, and is highly dependent on the environment used.

Your IdealScope may mislead consumers..

 

[MissAva]

Date: 5/30/2005 3:48:33 AM
Author: adamasgem

Date: 5/29/2005 7:42:44 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 5/29/2005 4:29:08 PM
Author: adamasgem

Date: 5/29/2005 2:28:32 PM

Author: strmrdr

This is a very old thread so im not sure why it was brought back to life.


To answer the question to me they look dark under the table in some lighting. The arrow shafts are too fat making them dark looking to my eyes.

Are they very well cut .. yep .. but I dont care for their personality.

There are diamonds out there that perform better accross a much wider range of light conditions. I find them rather narrow tuned as far as what light conditions they work best in.

Strmrdr..


''Personality'' of a stone is one thing, and what they like is one thing, but PEOPLE who haven''t done the technical work should refrain from making statements like ''There are diamonds out there that perform better accross a much wider range of light conditions'' You can design a stone such that it ''performs'' best in any PARTICULAR environment, but those conditions should be specified.


You talk about wider range of lighting conditions, well, what are you basing that statement on. You don''t KNOW, period, you may know what you LIKE, based on the little you have seen, but you don''t seem to have a grasp of the technical issues that are there, and the limitations of ''performance'' metrics ballyed about by everyone now.


Other than GIA''s hemisphere (which I publically disagree with as unsuited for diamond performance evaluation as it doesn''t emulate a ''real world envirionment), ALL the purvayors of ''performance'' I have contacted REFUSED to specify the lighting envirionment they used to evaluate and spec out their ''performance'' metrics.


You should go back and read the long pricescope thread. The last three pages are the meat, and all of a sudden, there was silence, no replies because I think I threw technical monkeywrench into the gears of some peoples thinking.


https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/ags-new-cut-grade-system-early-2005.19268/



(the last three pages should be enough for you to get the picture.. and as you say ''You are not a diamond expert''


Eightstars are the BEST, in my opinion, on optical symmetry, and that STRONGLY effects broadflash fire. The attached file is a reduced quality image of Fire examples(all pics equally increased in saturation), with the Eightstar on the left, a GIA Ex,EX, a Branded ''ideal'' and a typical mall store special.


As to ''performance'', well it depends on whose flawed metrics one looks at.



Marty Haske

1> People on 8* payroll as you admit to being should refrain from commenting about them its against the self promotion rule.
2> yea they have fire but fire is just one facet of diamond performace.
Some like a fiery diamond some like diamonds with more white light return.

More than 2 of the experts I respect the most as well as AGS agree that shortening the LGF too far results in decreased direct light performance.

Face it your biased to 8* and spread hype about them a lot.
I for one am tired of the hype.

Storm Door, who ever the hell you you are, you spend a lot of time commenting, but appraently, I don''t see any credibility in what you say. Just who the hell are you. You have p**sed me off with your comments.

If you read my posts, I clearly indicated that I WAS funded to design the Fire Performance Scope, and occasionaly consult for them, BUT I am not on their payroll, period. I consult for quite a few labs and others, including EightStar. Don''t try to impune my integrity or you might regret it.

It is interesting to note that you have a lot of posts, so you are either a dealer or somehow involved in the industry, but are too CHICKEN to reveal your true identity, and therefore hide your biases or adgenda. I''m not hyping, I''m stating provable facts in response to those trying to trash EightStar, and I''m doing it from a knowledge base you obviously don''t have, and I am not paid for doing so, and I don''t sell diamonds.

You however, have a hidden adgenda, WHO THE HELL ARE YOU, AND WHO ARE YOU GETING PAID BY??

A lot of us have lots of posts. Strmdr have been on here two years that is a lot of time to post on many things I have been on here only about 8weeks and I have posted over 800 times. I don’t work for anyone I am college student who just enjoys looking at shiny objects and reading about other people’s happiest moments. Please don’t threaten or disparage others here on PS it is not polite. I don''t know Strmdr have never meet him or even PMed him but I take him for what he claims to be, after all those of us who havent meet you are taking you for an expert becuase you claim to be.

 

[AGBF]

Hey, Marty-

I respect your opinions and know you are incredibly well-informed, so I hate seeing you embroiled in a tempest in a teapot. Serg posted what he did 2 (maybe 2 1/2) years ago. Even then he may have been kidding. Had he posted that now he certainly would have been.

I have always believed that Storm (strmrdr) was (and is) a consumer. A consumer, moreover, with political views that make my hair stand on end.

As Matatora said, some of us consumers have racked up many posts over the years. I know I have. I am "hiding" (as much as I am) because I do not want to make my name a present to the entire world. Many consumers and vendors, however, know who I am. I have bought items from them and talked to them on the phone. I suspect that the same is true of Storm.


Deb

 

[strmrdr]

Thanks Matatora and AGBF.
I was seeing red when I read his post but after reading yours im calmed down.
He is doing himself more damage than anything I could say would.

Those that have a legit need for my contact information have it. Having been involved in the net for 10 years and helped track down stalkers and bust a kiddie **** ring Iv seen the worst the net has to offer.
Therefore I choose to keep my information private.
Some people just cant accept that a consumer would spend over a year and a half learning everything they can about diamonds.

 

[fire&ice]

Has the question been answered as to *why* a thread that is 2 1/2 years old is bumped? And, then if any one calls into question a possible *reason* as to *why*, they are branded as a shill?

I''ve never seen an 8* nor do I give a rat''s butt about them. So, I will not argue the virtues or lack thereof. I do, however, take issue that because of number of posts, we must be working in the industry. I can''t speak for the *why* with Strm - but, I have NO reason to suspect he is in the industry.

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 5/30/2005 9:46:41 AM
Author: AGBF
Hey, Marty-

I respect your opinions and know you are incredibly well-informed, so I hate seeing you embroiled in a tempest in a teapot. Serg posted what he did 2 (maybe 2 1/2) years ago. Even then he may have been kidding. Had he posted that now he certainly would have been.

I have always believed that Storm (strmrdr) was (and is) a consumer. A consumer, moreover, with political views that make my hair stand on end.

As Matatora said, some of us consumers have racked up many posts over the years. I know I have. I am ''hiding'' (as much as I am) because I do not want to make my name a present to the entire world. Many consumers and vendors, however, know who I am. I have bought items from them and talked to them on the phone. I suspect that the same is true of Storm.


Deb

Hi Deb.. I understand your viewpoint, BUT I clearly stated my past consulting with EightStar, and then Storm Drain accused me of being on their payroll, in otherwords called me a liar and effectively said that my TECHNICAL opinions are to be questioned. I don''t know who that "person" is, but he can''t read and he doesn''t know what he is talking about. And I don''t believe "he" is, is certainly not just a "consumer".

He may have opinions, but when someone, even friends, start throwing accusations about my integrity, they are going to regret it.

As to the age of the thread, I guess I didn''t see the age of the post, so I formally appologize to Sergy.

 

[WinkHPD]

Marty,

You know I respect you for your incredible fountain of knowledge, but you missed the mark on your attack on Storm Rider. I have dealt with him in the past and talked with him on the phone, which was a rare privelege as he much prefers email. I know for a fact that he is a consumer who was not in the jewelry industry when I dealt with him just a few months ago. To the best of my knowledge, he is still not in the industry.

While there are few here who have your degree of knowledge there are many who have taken a great deal of time to learn as much as they can. If they get some of the details wrong I think it appropriate to gently steer them in the correct direction, but I do not think personal attack and invective is ever called for on a public forum. You may not be on EightStar''s payroll at this time, but you clearly have had a good relationship with them and I urge you to consider the damage you do to EightStar''s image when you stray from your wonderful educational posts into a personal attack on another member of this board.

I am proud to be an EightStar dealer and I greatly appreciate the knowledge you have so freely shared with me, so please accept this in the manner that it is offfered, a request to leave the personal invective out of the public''s eye.

Wink

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 5/30/2005 11:07:41 AM
Author: strmrdr
Thanks Matatora and AGBF.
I was seeing red when I read his post but after reading yours im calmed down.
He is doing himself more damage than anything I could say would.

Those that have a legit need for my contact information have it. Having been involved in the net for 10 years and helped track down stalkers and bust a kiddie **** ring Iv seen the worst the net has to offer.
Therefore I choose to keep my information private.
Some people just cant accept that a consumer would spend over a year and a half learning everything they can about diamonds.

Storm Drain.. Convenient, unprovable excuse for someone with such a big mouth, but it doesn''t cut the mustard with me.

You accuse me of technical bias and you spout BS to consumers and trash industry leaders, yet "admit" you are "not an expert". I, at least, can back up my technical opinions with facts and data. I''ve consulted to major technical corporations and my equipment is in use world wide.

You, on the other hand, just have a big mouth, with a very small brain controlling it.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/30/2005 12:33:02 PM
Author: adamasgem

Date: 5/30/2005 11:07:41 AM

Author: strmrdr

Thanks Matatora and AGBF.

I was seeing red when I read his post but after reading yours im calmed down.

He is doing himself more damage than anything I could say would.


Those that have a legit need for my contact information have it. Having been involved in the net for 10 years and helped track down stalkers and bust a kiddie **** ring Iv seen the worst the net has to offer.

Therefore I choose to keep my information private.

Some people just cant accept that a consumer would spend over a year and a half learning everything they can about diamonds.

Storm Drain.. Convenient, unprovable excuse for someone with such a big mouth, but it doesn''t cut the mustard with me.


You accuse me of technical bias and you spout BS to consumers and trash industry leaders, yet ''admit'' you are ''not an expert''. I, at least, can back up my technical opinions with facts and data. I''ve consulted to major technical corporations and my equipment is in use world wide.


You, on the other hand, just have a big mouth, with a very small brain controlling it.

The sad thing is that your running 8* thru the mud and once you get past the hype they are indeed nice diamonds.
This kind of crud and the hype by people with a $ interest in them is the main thing I have against them.

That said:
Stop shooting off your mouth and prove your case.
If 8* diamonds are the best cut in the world prove it.
Post IS images, sarin files, gem files, h&a photos and b-scope results for multiple 8* diamonds.
I will find the same information on diamonds from other cutters to compare it too.

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 5/30/2005 12:14:39 PM
Author: Wink
Marty,

You know I respect you for your incredible fountain of knowledge, but you missed the mark on your attack on Storm Rider. I have dealt with him in the past and talked with him on the phone, which was a rare privelege as he much prefers email. I know for a fact that he is a consumer who was not in the jewelry industry when I dealt with him just a few months ago. To the best of my knowledge, he is still not in the industry.

While there are few here who have your degree of knowledge there are many who have taken a great deal of time to learn as much as they can. If they get some of the details wrong I think it appropriate to gently steer them in the correct direction, but I do not think personal attack and invective is ever called for on a public forum. You may not be on EightStar''s payroll at this time, but you clearly have had a good relationship with them and I urge you to consider the damage you do to EightStar''s image when you stray from your wonderful educational posts into a personal attack on another member of this board.

I am proud to be an EightStar dealer and I greatly appreciate the knowledge you have so freely shared with me, so please accept this in the manner that it is offfered, a request to leave the personal invective out of the public''s eye.

Wink

Wink. I''ll accept your vouching for Storm Drain as a "consumer".

 

[pricescope]

Date: 5/30/2005 12:53:57 PM
Author: adamasgem

Wink. I'll accept your vouching for Storm Drain as a 'consumer'.

Martin, please also accept my word that Strmrdr is a consumer. I also ask you to refrain from personal attacks anybody on the forum.

Strmrdr, Martin Haske always discloses that he had worked as a consultant for EightStar. He's entitled to say what he thinks about this brand.

Considering Adamasgem knowledge and high reputation in the industry, it is a great benefit to have him on the forum....

Hope you guys will get along, please...

 

[mepearl53]

Whoa! I think I am the one who started this. I was reading a old thread the other day and came across one that I considered more than a opinion. I''m a old school GG (34 years tomorrow) and have not kept up to date with all of the new devises to measure performance in diamonds. My eyes have been what I relied on over the years for beauty is in the eyes of the beholder. I have not been critical of other designers work even when I did not like their design. I work with branded designers. They are a comfort for consumers and even when I read a thread having someone suggest that they go to so and so to have the look knocked off I say nothing. IMHO I have never seen a more stunning diamond cut than the 8* It''s pricey but worth the $$$ for those that, IMHO, want the absolute best. I am also a 8* dealer and when I read the old thread consulted with Martin for I trust his opinion in this area. For those who have visited my website you know my eyes are not that of a amateur but this was a situation I could not address. Sorry to have ruffled the feathers.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 5/30/2005 2:00:07 PM
Author: Pricescope

Date: 5/30/2005 12:53:57 PM

Author: adamasgem


Wink. I''ll accept your vouching for Storm Drain as a ''consumer''.

Martin, please also accept my word that Strmrdr is a consumer. I also ask you to refrain from personal attacks anybody on the forum.


Strmrdr, Martin Haske always discloses that he had worked as a consultant for EightStar. He''s entitled to say what he thinks about this brand.


Considering Adamasgem knowledge and high reputation in the industry, it is a great benefit to have him on the forum....


Hope you guys will get along, please...

Well when he sees fit to actualy post data and information instead of hype and childish name calling then we can discuss things.
When someone hypes up a product I want to know where they are coming from and whom they are getting money from.
The opinions and hype may be his own but that dont change the fact that he is getting paid in atleast some way by 8*.
Is that coloring his opinion? You tell me.

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 5/31/2005 11:53:14 AM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 5/30/2005 2:00:07 PM
Author: Pricescope

Date: 5/30/2005 12:53:57 PM

Author: adamasgem


Wink. I''ll accept your vouching for Storm Drain as a ''consumer''.

Martin, please also accept my word that Strmrdr is a consumer. I also ask you to refrain from personal attacks anybody on the forum.


Strmrdr, Martin Haske always discloses that he had worked as a consultant for EightStar. He''s entitled to say what he thinks about this brand.


Considering Adamasgem knowledge and high reputation in the industry, it is a great benefit to have him on the forum....


Hope you guys will get along, please...

Well when he sees fit to actualy post data and information instead of hype and childish name calling then we can discuss things.
When someone hypes up a product I want to know where they are coming from and whom they are getting money from.
The opinions and hype may be his own but that dont change the fact that he is getting paid in atleast some way by 8*.
Is that coloring his opinion? You tell me.

Storm: Perhaps you should learn to READ.. I clearly disclosed I am NOT on the EightStar payroll, and AM NOT GETTING PAID BY THEM. I HAVE done work for them in the past, as I do for a lot of companies. Information and technical consulting
are my business. I DO NOT SELL diamonds, EightStars or any other brand or unbranded. My technical objectivity and opinions are based on sound facts and observations, something I can prove, when I want to, and not at the demand of some child.

Yet, again, refraining from calling you the names you so richly deserve, I should realize that perhaps have a anal-crainal reversal disorder.

I post what I want to. Since you have proven you can''t read, I will IGNORE each and every one of your requests for information in the future, BUT, when your LACK of knowledge raises its ugly head, and misinforms consumers, like it has in the past, I WILL CORRECT YOU..

Unfortunately, you are free to post your anonomous opinions based on no knowledge or training in the subject matter, other than what you think you know, but you appear to me, ill informed, and quite irritating at times, as others have commented on.

 

[RockDoc]

I guess I should throw my two cents in here......


Firstly, Martin really shouldn''t be challenged by you, Storm. You sort of started the accusations, and he defended and clarified his position posting more conclusive evidence and CLEARLY disclosing his PAST finanancial involvement with Eightstar.


Now, if Martin hid the fact of be associated or affiliated with Eightstar, I wouldn''t blame you in the least for your position.

But Martin has a background of being educated by MIT, and is a rocket science expert, besides years of working with the US NAVY, and the Apollo Program. Then he got credentials in gemology and valuation and we also took our Certified Mediation Courses together. In addition he is currently teaching a college course in gemology in the Boston area, as well as having a ton of very interesting articles based on years of research and study.

It genuinely troubles and concerns me that many consumers on the forum want advice. Lots of experts participate spending endless hours in an attempt to inform the readers of the forum of what we observe. When a seller hypes how good his product is, it seems that everyone embraces that claim, and never challenges their very obvious interest, but when an independent expert comments on the positive side of what someone is doing that is different, or better then we get accused of hyping a product.

Doesn''t seem very fair does it?

As far as my opinion about Eightstars, I like them as well. There are some things they do that really can''t be totally copied. Without disclosing Eightstar''s secrets, which are proprietary and in some cases rather unique, Martin, I and others have voiced our experience, in our examining these items. Our comments are made to inform not to hype, as after all, independent appraiser don''t sell diamonds. Further, if we have an interest we disclose it - not hide it. Martin Clearly disclosed any interest that would be questioned with his association with Eightstar, and Dave Atlas disclosed his affiliation and part ownership of IMAGEM. In this vein, readers can intelligent accept our opinions or trash them as they see fit to do.

So if you want to lock horns with him - I''d say you probably wouldn''t prevail. You get more with honey than you do with vinegar.

I trust you will take this constructively, and learn from those of us who do have the proper training, education, experience and who are willing unselfishly share with the readers on the forum. We had some limited conversation, as well, and I do respect your efforts, and not I don''t prefer to rattle sabres with you.

There are plenty of pirates out there, who profess knowledge they don''t have. Maybe you should adjust the turret on your tank to aim at them, rather than those here who really spend a lot of professional time, assisting, advising and commenting on the subjects being asked about.

Respectfully...

Rockdoc

 

[Lord Summerisle]

Please Sir, can i be insulted to...

brightens up my day!

Cheers

 

[mrssalvo]

i'm honesty very hesitant to post here for fear of getting verbally attacked but I'm very tired of the banter that this thread has turned into. i'm just a ignorant diamond lover who likes to try and learn and look at pretty things on this site. this thread is just down right mean. I have been a poster for about 5 months and this is the first I've read or heard from you Marty and based on this thread I would have no desire to learn or read anything else you have to say. You may not agree with Storm, and you are correct in saying some don't, but there is no reason to continue to underhandly call him names. and Storm, Marty says he doesn't work for 8*, others have believed this to be true so continually accusing him doesn't help. That being said, it was always my understanding this was a consumer forum and a safe place for us to post and seek out OPINIONS and FACTS. Everything I write is my opinion, based on my very limited knowledge and I always admit this. Storm has a right to post his OPINION whether it agrees with your opinions/facts or not. We seek expert advice here but even the experts can disagree. If we, the members of this forum, get blasted everytime we say something an expert might disagree with, it makes it not a very friendly educational place to be and I for one will no longer want to participate. I don't care if you work for 8* or not, if you know the product through and through and can enlighten us that's great, just please respect others and we will in turn respect you.

 

[RockDoc]

From Martin:
Yet, again, refraining from calling you the names you so richly deserve, I should realize that perhaps have a anal-crainal reversal disorder.


I guess I didn''t get to read the above until after I posted the above.


Martin, gonna spank you with the ROCKDOC wet noodle for not attributing the above quote to me, and gonna correct the wording.

The proper nonmenclature for that quote should be "RECTO-CRANIAL INVERSION" which was started by yours truly on some other forums in the past, when dealing with those that have that condition.


This of course is made humorously....


Rockdoc

 

[fire&ice]

I thought this thread was locked?

Stop the madness or pass the crack pipe.

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 5/31/2005 12:51:36 PM
Author: RockDoc

From Martin:
Yet, again, refraining from calling you the names you so richly deserve, I should realize that perhaps have a anal-crainal reversal disorder.


I guess I didn''t get to read the above until after I posted the above.


Martin, gonna spank you with the ROCKDOC wet noodle for not attributing the above quote to me, and gonna correct the wording.

The proper nonmenclature for that quote should be ''RECTO-CRANIAL INVERSION'' which was started by yours truly on some other forums in the past, when dealing with those that have that condition.


This of course is made humorously....


Rockdoc

I stand spanked and corrected for both the non attribution and my appologies for not knowing the correct medical terminology to use for the disorder shown.

 

[aljdewey]

Date: 5/31/2005
Author: RockDoc

Firstly, Martin really shouldn't be challenged by you, Storm. You sort of started the accusations, and he defended and clarified his position posting more conclusive evidence and CLEARLY disclosing his PAST finanancial involvement with Eightstar.

I have to say I agree with this. Storm did start the accusations, and it's been an ongoing trend with him that he's quick to accuse without enough information to substantiate. It does become a bit much after a while. I agree that Marty's response wasn't appropriate, but I can certain empathize with his urge to respond as he did.

Date: 5/31/2005 12:51:21 PM
Author: mrssalvo

It was always my understanding this was a consumer forum and a safe place for us to post and seek out OPINIONS and FACTS. Everything I write is my opinion, based on my very limited knowledge and I always admit this. Storm has a right to post his OPINION whether it agrees with your opinions/facts or not.

Your understanding is correct...this place is exactly what you think it is.....a safe place to post and seek out opinions and facts. It ISN'T intended to be a place to impugn someone's integrity or reputation, and it shouldn't be used as a platform where people have to defend themselves against unfair accusation.

Some folks blur the lines between what is opinion and what is really fact. One can have an opinion on a diamond's beauty, but it's not a matter of *opinion* if someone is getting compensation. Storm has publicly alleged that Marty is collecting funds to promote a product, and in fact, Marty has stated unequivocally several times here that he is not.

I don't know Marty, but I do know the man is very respected in his field and has no reason to lie here on PS. If he says he isn't getting compensated, he isn't. If Stormrider has evidence to the contrary, then bring it forward to the moderator and let him take care of it.

If he doesn't, he should apologize and say 'I misunderstood".

 

[adamasgem]

Date: 5/31/2005 12:51:21 PM
Author: mrssalvo
i''m honesty very hesitant to post here for fear of getting verbally attacked but I''m very tired of the banter that this thread has turned into. i''m just a ignorant diamond lover who likes to try and learn and look at pretty things on this site. this thread is just down right mean. I have been a poster for about 5 months and this is the first I''ve read or heard from you Marty and based on this thread I would have no desire to learn or read anything else you have to say. You may not agree with Storm, and you are correct in saying some don''t, but there is no reason to continue to underhandly call him names.
It was always my understanding this was a consumer forum and a safe place for us to post and seek out OPINIONS and FACTS. Everything I write is my opinion, based on my very limited knowledge and I always admit this. Storm has a right to post his OPINION whether it agrees with your opinions/facts or not. We seek expert advice here but even the experts can disagree. If we, the members of this forum, get blasted everytime we say something an expert might disagree with, it makes it not a very friendly educational place to be and I for one will no longer want to participate. I don''t care if you work for 8* or not, if you know the product through and though and can enlighten us that''s great, just please respect others and we will in turn respect you.

Dear Mrssalvo..

You probably haven''t seen my limited posts because I only post when someone asks me or tells me there is something going on (usually technical misinformation to the consumer) that I should comment on and correct, based on my technical knowledge and experiance.

I don''t attack anyone who doesn''t swing first with unwarrented accusations, and then I am like a pit bull,and I don''t mince words for fear of offending others who deserve to be offended.
If I have offended you or others by my classic style of shooting back with both barrels, then I sincerely oppoligize.

 

[pricescope]

Ok, folks. I suggest we all stop here. Both Strmrdr and Adamasgem are good people and valuable forum members.

Here are a few rules of the etiquette I suggest for everybody:

Karma is key.
Be nice.
Be honest.
Give the benefit of the doubt
Listen.

Adamasgem Q&A are moved int0 this thread: Fire Performance Scope and other questions