EGL SI2 came back GIA I1- For the love of PETE!

[SB621]

Another very important term, which is used by many, and is totally incorrect is "GIA Appraiser"
Any appraiser making people believe they have any connection whatsoever to GIA is misleading folks in a big way.
It does not matter one iota if they have taken GIA courses- GIA does not "accredit" appraisers, and no legit appraiser will lead someone to believe they can predict what GIA will grade a diamond with surety.
They can guess, but that's about it. How much is a guess worth?
Not a lot- and even less if it's done in a way that gives a consumer the impression it's more than a guess.....
Sorry for the rant- but this is a common misconception, and a lot of consumers have lost due to it

Thank you RD, good informationl. I assumed the GIA appraiser would have been as strict (within their limitation of course) to the GIA grading. Lesson learned.

 

[denverappraiser]

Sorry SB.
I really feel terrible that people get the impression there's any debate about EGL grading.
Dealers know, without any doubt, EGL grading is soft. Period. There's no "forumla"- it can be one grade softer or five grades softer
Many of the EGL Si2 diamonds on the market have GIA I1 reports that the dealers throw away.

Another very important term, which is used by many, and is totally incorrect is "GIA Appraiser"
Any appraiser making people believe they have any connection whatsoever to GIA is misleading folks in a big way.
It does not matter one iota if they have taken GIA courses- GIA does not "accredit" appraisers, and no legit appraiser will lead someone to believe they can predict what GIA will grade a diamond with surety.
They can guess, but that's about it. How much is a guess worth?
Not a lot- and even less if it's done in a way that gives a consumer the impression it's more than a guess.....
Sorry for the rant- but this is a common misconception, and a lot of consumers have lost due to it

Just to add a bit to this, GIA doesn't even teach appraising. They don't have a single class in it. What they teach in their GG program is diamond and gemstone grading, stone identification, basic gemology, gem appreciation, sales skills and a certain amount of gem history. To the extent that appraisers learn how to appraise, they do it somewhere else. American Society of Appraisers, International Society of Appraisers, American Gem Society, and National Association of Jewelry Appraisers are all popular.

 

[diamond_concierge]

As the previous poster mentioned, an appriaser may have trained at GIA, but GIA does not train appraisers. They train gemologists and diamond graders, maufacturing jewelers, setters, pearl graders, stringers, and sales professionals. They offer diplomas and certificates for completed courses of study. I am a GIA Diamonds Graduate, and I can tell you from firsthand experience that a clarity grade is an opinion. An expert, thoroughly educated opinion, but an opinion nonetheless. We are trained to ask ourselves questions such as do the clarity characteristics interfere with the beauty and/or the durability of the diamond. If the characteristic is affecting the beauty and the durability of the diamond, then the "I" grade is called for.

 

[TC1987]

Sounds like a stone that I might like. I don't care much about clarity.

 

[Dreamer_D]

ETA: I should preface to say, this is a crappy way to learn about EGL reports! I'm sorry SB.

This will be a good thread to link for future non-believers in those "blah blah blah" threads, in which I frequently blah blah blah! Seems like EGL was off by two color grades, one clarity grade, and one cut grade from GIA. That's a lot of money, even when someone tries to play the game and account for such differences. I always say the safe bet is to assume you are overpaying for an EGL diamond. That is the whole point of the lab! To allow dealers to get more money for diamonds that would be dinged in value, or unsellable, with a GIA report.

Many of the EGL Si2 diamonds on the market have GIA I1 reports that the dealers throw away.

I think this point is worth emphasizing for future readers. Seems to me that an awful lot of EGL stones are SI2 clarity. Its much easier to sell an Si2 than an I1. When I see an SI2 report from EGL I assume its an I1 per GIA at best.

I would be curious to see what AGS would say too, if you send it there. On the secondary market, though, people might not differentiate soooo much between SI2 and I1. It will either be eye clean or not either way, and the resale value will be only a percentage of retail anyways, meaning the price difference between SI2 and I1 on resale will also only be a percentage of the difference at retail (e.g., if the price difference full retail is $5k, the price difference on resale is probably only $2500).

 

[TC1987]

When I see an SI2 report from EGL I assume its an I1 per GIA at best.

Yeah. LMBO because also remember that EGL stuck "SI 3" in there between SI2 and I1, so inclusions would have to be announcing themselves with a bullhorn to get I1 or I2 from EGL.

I still think that AGS 000 is the safest bet for great cut if one is buying almost sight unseen via Internet. GIA Excellent is #2 and requires further study. And EGL is one that you buy with a good return policy and have it checked by your own skilled gemologist or appraiser, excepting maybe the antique diamonds because all but a fraction of those go through EGL.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Have you never done a search here on Pricescope?
Its bleedingly obvious - especially if you search SI2 stones that they are priced like GIA I1's.
they can still be a better buy though

I bought it before I was really active on PS. At least on the diamond forum, more so on the CS forum. Did you really just say bleeding obvious

Must have been a gremlin typo

May I sound my warning again please.
Eye clean SI2 diamonds usually have some other problem. It can be cloudy / milky / grainy and lacking brilliance. It can be feathers (code for an open surface reaching fracture) which if it is on the crown across facets or in an exposed part of a girdle, especially when set E-W, then it can break or chip.
This applies more to above 1ct in eyeclean and worse as size increases.

 

[Rockdiamond]

Have you never done a search here on Pricescope?
Its bleedingly obvious - especially if you search SI2 stones that they are priced like GIA I1's.
they can still be a better buy though

I bought it before I was really active on PS. At least on the diamond forum, more so on the CS forum. Did you really just say bleeding obvious

Must have been a gremlin typo

May I sound my warning again please.
Eye clean SI2 diamonds usually have some other problem. It can be cloudy / milky / grainy and lacking brilliance. It can be feathers (code for an open surface reaching fracture) which if it is on the crown across facets or in an exposed part of a girdle, especially when set E-W, then it can break or chip.
This applies more to above 1ct in eyeclean and worse as size increases.

I STRONGLY disagree with both of the underlined statements Garry.
First- it's my experience that consumers trying to get a "better buy" by selecting EGL graded diamonds are in a group that is most frequently ripped off. You and I can effectively buy EGL graded diamonds because we both have the knowledge to accuratley grade- and the offer a price for the diamonds based on those grades.
Dealers selling EGL graded stones to unsuspecting consumers use this exact skill to deceive consumers every singe day.

The second underlined part- about SI2 graded ( GIA graded) diamonds is simply too broad a statement. Other than cases of grade setting clouds, GIA will not grade a diamond's clarity based on it's brilliance- and even then, the clouds may have minimal effect on brilliance.
I agree Si2 diamonds are not to be bought sight unseen- but there's plenty of diamonds graded SI2 by GIA with dispersed imperfections that are the visual equal of an Internally Flawless stone- even in larger sizes.
I do agree that percentages change as stones get larger ( less eye clean SI2's)- but I still feel that consumers are far better served by educating about proper clarity grading- GIA grades based on the presence of imperfection as opposed to its visibility in the stone.
That's why you can have a VS2 with a carbon spot over a facet making it non eye clean, and an SI2 with 10 small carbon spots that happen to be impossible to see naked eye - and have imperceptible effect on brilliance- and NO effect on durability.

I am vigilant on this based to the number of people that call who've been convinced not to consider anything lower than a VS2- which is effectively forcing them to overspend.
If someone wants an IF stone because they want it, I am in complete agreement, that's what they should get.
But if a person wants a VS2 because they've been led to believe all SI2's are bad, well, it's just plain wrong.

 

[SB621]

Well Circe and Enrechi you both are getting your way after all!

Today I had someone offer to buy the diamond and I just couldn't pull the trigger for some reason. I know I should probably sell it. I don't need it, but I just keep thinking if I do sell it and then decide later on down the road I want a MRB I'm screwed. DH of course came to the rescue at lunchtime told me I was acting crazy and proceeded to tell me to set it in the Blake Lively inspired ring that I really love. I have already received a few qutoes (love my PS vendors who respond within the hour!) and the diamond will be shipped out next week. For some reason through this whole thing I now feel relieved with a way forward.

 

[Rosebloom]

Well Circe and Enrechi you both are getting your way after all!

Today I had someone offer to buy the diamond and I just couldn't pull the trigger for some reason. I know I should probably sell it. I don't need it, but I just keep thinking if I do sell it and then decide later on down the road I want a MRB I'm screwed. DH of course came to the rescue at lunchtime told me I was acting crazy and proceeded to tell me to set it in the Blake Lively inspired ring that I really love. I have already received a few qutoes (love my PS vendors who respond within the hour!) and the diamond will be shipped out next week. For some reason through this whole thing I now feel relieved with a way forward.

Incredible!!!! Nice work E and C!!!

 

[SB621]

Well Circe and Enrechi you both are getting your way after all!

Today I had someone offer to buy the diamond and I just couldn't pull the trigger for some reason. I know I should probably sell it. I don't need it, but I just keep thinking if I do sell it and then decide later on down the road I want a MRB I'm screwed. DH of course came to the rescue at lunchtime told me I was acting crazy and proceeded to tell me to set it in the Blake Lively inspired ring that I really love. I have already received a few qutoes (love my PS vendors who respond within the hour!) and the diamond will be shipped out next week. For some reason through this whole thing I now feel relieved with a way forward.

Incredible!!!! Nice work E and C!!!

And CHRISTINA!!!!!

 

[Circe]

The Three Musketeers ride again!

Seriously, though, I think it's the right decision. Never sell when you're conflicted, and I think the cert thing would have left you feeling oogy (and I still think the grade might be worth disputing with GIA). This way, you enjoy it until you're sure one way or another ... and you can always sell it down the line. Yay for following your gut, yay for thoughtful husbands, and yay for enabling!

 

[denverappraiser]

Buying EGL and resubmitting it to GIA in the hopes of an upgrade (meaning in the hopes that it will be the same grade but a better lab and therefore more valuable) is a gambling game. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. The 'double down' position is to either complain to GIA and ask for a recheck or to resubmit it to AGS and see if they like it better (or both).

Just curious would it be better to challenge the grade or to send it to the other GIA lab? For example if it was sent to GIA New York in this case send it to GIA California. I remember something that GIA captures the inclusion data and if you resubmit they will issue the exact same grade but I wonder if both labs share the same database and how that works?

GIA, and any other lab that's worth their salt, is pretty good at recognizing stones that have been submitted to them before and this extends across all of their offices, even overseas. Sending to NY vs. Carlsbad will make no difference in whether or not they recognize it and you can send the challenge to whichever lab is more convenient to you. FWIW, a dispute is cheaper than a whole new examination.

This actually goes to one of my pet peeves about GIAs system. If they do crappy work, thereby generating a lot of disputes, that's a profit center. If they work slowly so that a lot of people feel the need to pay 'rush' charges, that's a profit center. Excuse me, non-profit.

 

[denverappraiser]

Buying EGL and resubmitting it to GIA in the hopes of an upgrade (meaning in the hopes that it will be the same grade but a better lab and therefore more valuable) is a gambling game. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. The 'double down' position is to either complain to GIA and ask for a recheck or to resubmit it to AGS and see if they like it better (or both).

Just curious would it be better to challenge the grade or to send it to the other GIA lab? For example if it was sent to GIA New York in this case send it to GIA California. I remember something that GIA captures the inclusion data and if you resubmit they will issue the exact same grade but I wonder if both labs share the same database and how that works?

GIA, and any other lab that's worth their salt, is pretty good at recognizing stones that have been submitted to them before and this extends across all of their offices, even overseas. Sending to NY vs. Carlsbad will make no difference in whether or not they recognize it and you can send the challenge to whichever lab is more convenient to you. FWIW, a dispute is cheaper than a whole new examination.

Thanks for the quick response. How much does a challenge cost?

I think it's half of the price of the original inspection, plus shipping and insurance if you've already got the goods back. If they change their mind the inspection and update part of that is free.

 

[Rockdiamond]

In my experience, the percentage of times GIA will change the grade is tiny- particularly on clarity grades.
Color, more frequent, but still rare.
I totally get Neil's comments about "profit centers" and how GIA is somehow maximizing fees.
In fairness I will mention that they stopped the same day service in an attempt to expedite" normal" submissions.
As it was, you basically had to pay double or say goodbye to your diamond for 6 weeks....

 

[Christina...]

The Three Musketeers ride again!

Seriously, though, I think it's the right decision. Never sell when you're conflicted, and I think the cert thing would have left you feeling oogy (and I still think the grade might be worth disputing with GIA). This way, you enjoy it until you're sure one way or another ... and you can always sell it down the line. Yay for following your gut, yay for thoughtful husbands, and yay for enabling!

see!!! Don't you feel better already? I'm super excited for you, now instead of a stone sitting in your lock box you are going to have an incredibly beautiful new ring to wear enjoy and admire and really isn't that the whole point? And of course if you ever decide to sell....well I've begun replenishing my bling fund and could really use a Blake Lively inspired ring!

Edit: correction....I forgot that Blake's ring wasn't haloed!

 

[Christina...]

Buying EGL and resubmitting it to GIA in the hopes of an upgrade (meaning in the hopes that it will be the same grade but a better lab and therefore more valuable) is a gambling game. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. The 'double down' position is to either complain to GIA and ask for a recheck or to resubmit it to AGS and see if they like it better (or both).

Just curious would it be better to challenge the grade or to send it to the other GIA lab? For example if it was sent to GIA New York in this case send it to GIA California. I remember something that GIA captures the inclusion data and if you resubmit they will issue the exact same grade but I wonder if both labs share the same database and how that works?

GIA, and any other lab that's worth their salt, is pretty good at recognizing stones that have been submitted to them before and this extends across all of their offices, even overseas. Sending to NY vs. Carlsbad will make no difference in whether or not they recognize it and you can send the challenge to whichever lab is more convenient to you. FWIW, a dispute is cheaper than a whole new examination.

This actually goes to one of my pet peeves about GIAs system. If they do crappy work, thereby generating a lot of disputes, that's a profit center. If they work slowly so that a lot of people feel the need to pay 'rush' charges, that's a profit center. Excuse me, non-profit.

Out of curiosity, are stones submitted to EGL (any of the EGL labs) ever challenged and resubmitted for a better grade?

 

[Enerchi]

huh!! who knew that keeping it would be the right choice??? who knew?!? oh... wait....



YAY!! It will be AMAZING SB!! You have an incredible jewelry 'sense' of what looks right, so a "Blake Lively" with your diamond should be STUNNING!!! I'm so glad you (and your daughter!) will get to wear this --- can't wait to see it finished!

 

[denverappraiser]

Buying EGL and resubmitting it to GIA in the hopes of an upgrade (meaning in the hopes that it will be the same grade but a better lab and therefore more valuable) is a gambling game. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose. The 'double down' position is to either complain to GIA and ask for a recheck or to resubmit it to AGS and see if they like it better (or both).

Just curious would it be better to challenge the grade or to send it to the other GIA lab? For example if it was sent to GIA New York in this case send it to GIA California. I remember something that GIA captures the inclusion data and if you resubmit they will issue the exact same grade but I wonder if both labs share the same database and how that works?

GIA, and any other lab that's worth their salt, is pretty good at recognizing stones that have been submitted to them before and this extends across all of their offices, even overseas. Sending to NY vs. Carlsbad will make no difference in whether or not they recognize it and you can send the challenge to whichever lab is more convenient to you. FWIW, a dispute is cheaper than a whole new examination.

This actually goes to one of my pet peeves about GIAs system. If they do crappy work, thereby generating a lot of disputes, that's a profit center. If they work slowly so that a lot of people feel the need to pay 'rush' charges, that's a profit center. Excuse me, non-profit.

Out of curiosity, are stones submitted to EGL (any of the EGL labs) ever challenged and resubmitted for a better grade?

Of course. And they're very agreeable about it. Would you expect anything different?

I've heard of companies who do a lot of this disputing and, apparently, have decided it's worth the time and cost. My own experience is rather like David's. I rarely seem to get what I want.

 

[SB621]

Another quick question Mr. DA if you don't mind. Do the EGL labs share a common database like GIA does worldwide?

 

[denverappraiser]

Another quick question Mr. DA if you don't mind. Do the EGL labs share a common database like GIA does worldwide?

I don't know. EGL-International and EGL-USA are different companies that are not particularly friendly to each other. From time to time they've been downright hostile. There's no way they share data. EGL-USA operates several facilities in the US and Canada and I would expect them to have central data but I'm not actually sure of this. The various EGLI labs are separately managed and I would be a little surprised if they share data between them. Some probably don't even do it internally.

 

[smc43084]

In my experience dealing with diamonds, only GIA and AGS are trustworthy sources. Also David Atlas does a very thorough and correct grading job. EGL has been ridiculous.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

S! I was looking for your pre-loved post just now to see if your diamond had sold and saw it was gone! So I came back to this thread to see why! I think at that price, it made more sense to keep it, I really do. And just think, someday maybe you can give it to your son to use for an engagement ring or something!

 

[SB621]

S! I was looking for your pre-loved post just now to see if your diamond had sold and saw it was gone! So I came back to this thread to see why! I think at that price, it made more sense to keep it, I really do. And just think, someday maybe you can give it to your son to use for an engagement ring or something!

J- I'm sorry I should have emailed you. It was just a last minute decision. I had dinner with DH and just decided I didn't want to sell it as it would be at a major loss. Plus if I changed my mind there would be no way to replace it. I did have several offers at full asking price, but when it came down to it I just asked Ella to delete the thread. It is on it's way to JbEG now and will hopefully be done in Sept. Thank you for your help and letting me talk it out with you and of course for all the sage advise. I truly appreciate it!