Dreamer's Old Cut Guide

[Bella432]

Thank you for writing this up Dreamer! I've got it bookmarked and just went and bought a loupe and calipers as per your recommendations for my treasure hunting

 

[minmin001]

BOOKMARK! Thank you for putting the time into write this~

 

[Dreamer_D]

Dreamer, you mentioned coaching some sellers you work with on taking good photos of these types of stones. Would you mind posting what you tell them? I know that *some* of us ( ) still struggle to get good photos of our older stones. If you can coach a seller to take decent photos, surely you can teach a motivated PSer!! And, for anyone who is evaluating a stone, being able to post good photos here would certainly help the experts in their assessment. Thanks!

Hi! I missed this when you asked, sorry about that

When I need better pictures I usually don't require too much from the sellers. I ask them to please take the photo in natural lighting by a window is possible and at the highest resolution possible. I usually ask if they can try to take a photo looking directly into the face of the stone and might send along a link to an ebay listing that DOES include the type of photos I would like, in terms of orientation and zoom of the image. Most of the time, that has been good enough because with the zoom feature on ebay you can get pretty good views that way. The real key is the natural light and no flash, for showing the facets.

 

[diamonds-are-friends]

a great guide for newbies. more pictures would make this even better!

 

[autumngems]

Which ebay seller has the ring with the white clothe, I love the setting and want to get more pictures in case I can re-create.

 

[GemFever]

Which ebay seller has the ring with the white clothe, I love the setting and want to get more pictures in case I can re-create.

Autumngems, here you go:

http://www.ebay.com/itm/DIAMOND-CLUSTER-RING-Old-European-Cut-Stones-2-65-carats-Antique-3N36-/221192137870?_trksid=p2047675.l2557&ssPageName=STRK%3AMESINDXX%3AIT&nma=true&si=VSC4yKXWh0dudsCCPr5S%252F%252FBocfE%253D&orig_cvip=true&rt=nc

 

[autumngems]

Thanks

 

[Dreamer_D]

Reposting something I wrote in another post:

It would be nice if people interested in buying old cuts could just walk into a million stores and buy diamonds with lab reports, as they can with modern RBs and many fancies these days, too.

There are some vendors selling old cuts with reports and all the bells and whistles: Good Old Gold, Jewels by Erica Grace, and Old World Diamonds are a few. The benefits of buying from such vendors is accuracy of information and certainty about what you buy. The down side is that the diamonds cost much more than diamond bought from other sources and the diamonds have often (I would suggest usually) been repolished or recut in some way to clean up nicks and chips to the girdle (at best) or to "improve optics" with a full-body overhaul (at worst).

But many old cuts are offered by estate sellers who may specialize in diamonds, they are offered for private sale, or they are offered at pawn shops And in many of those cases, the sellers do not have accurate information about what they sell other than an "appraisal" of limited value, and in the majority of cases the diamonds are set into vintage mounts and sellers do not want to unset the stones. The benefits of this way of buying is sometimes a lower price (yes, I am very sure of this, the old cut market is decidedly different than the modern RB market) and greater assurance of an original, untouched cut stone (no guarantees though!). The downside is uncertainty about what you are buying.

So it is much too simplistic to say "pass" on any old cut with no lab report, at least at this present time in the market.

If you are buying from the second type of business -- an estate seller, a pawn shop, a private seller, or any other random source -- then you must do your own leg work to determine fair market value for the piece in question. A qualified appraiser is needed. From the vendor, all you can hope for is an unconditional 100% refund policy with at least a 7 day inspection period (ideally 14 days). Always get the policy in writing and always buy through PayPal or your credit card to ensure you are protected in the event the seller turns out to be a jerk. And always, buyer beware! You can get burned.

 

[GemFever]

Dreamer, great post. I'm curious though, why do you say that vintage stones with cleaned up girdles are a "down side"? I think it would be a negative thing only for people who want absolutely purely vintage, in which case buying a loose stone (not sent into an original vintage setting) doesn't really make sense. Otherwise, what's bad about getting a stone with a clean girdle and no chips? As you know, I'm more on the "let's quickly polish out the chips" side

 

[iluvshinythings]

Great thread! I appreciate the info.

All of my old cuts have been inexpensive but so far I have been lucky and found nice ones. One of these days if I decide to splurge it will be nice to know what to actually look for.

Now that you've posted the pics I see what you are saying about the facets.

I've usually gone by the seller description and looked for things like "super sparkly". Usually the seller has been correct about the sparkle factor but they have all been notoriously bad as far as measurements and inclusions. I have one diamond that sparkles from a mile away but the seller failed to mention a big carbon spot right under the crown (which can also be spotted from a foot away) - she called it an S3, the appraiser calls it an I2. It wasn't expensive so I chalked it up to a lesson learned. Always ask for close-up photos and ask further questions. (I have always bought from an estate dealer or a private individual too - it's been cheaper) So far the diamonds have exceeded the stated measurements though so it kind of works out.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Dreamer, great post. I'm curious though, why do you say that vintage stones with cleaned up girdles are a "down side"? I think it would be a negative thing only for people who want absolutely purely vintage, in which case buying a loose stone (not sent into an original vintage setting) doesn't really make sense. Otherwise, what's bad about getting a stone with a clean girdle and no chips? As you know, I'm more on the "let's quickly polish out the chips" side

Some people desire un-retouched old cuts for a variety of reasons, not only because they come in vintage mounts. A large part of my enjoyment of my old cut is knowing it was cut a long time ago without the help of a computer to model the best use of the rough, for example.

That issue aside, the uncertainty is the downside, to me, not the actual practice per se -- though people vary in their opinions on the practice of fixing up old cuts on a continuum. But in my opinion, when you don't know what has been done then you can't even exercise your own right to have an opinion. This is not an issue of recutting or not recutting, but rather of knowledge, marketing, and provenance of a stone.

I have already made this argument, but a huge part of the "value" of old cuts is that they were cut a long time ago -- this fact is used to sell the romance of old cuts and also to appeal to cut aficionados. So I think that potential unknown "work" on a stone prior to buying is a down side for consumers, and not only from a "purity" perspective -- the value of an old cut might be affected by its recut status if that status was known and the recut was substantial. For diamonds cut today with the help of modern technology, many people would have MUCH higher standards for cut quality, for example! The same "old cut" could then have very different market values if it was truly cut 80 years ago compared to if it was cut this year, depending on how ideal its optics were.

I readily accept leakage in a diamond cut 80 years ago. Would you readily accept leakage and lazy facets in a diamond cut in 2013?

 

[Dreamer_D]

There are some vendors selling old cuts with reports and all the bells and whistles: Good Old Gold, Jewels by Erica Grace, and Old World Diamonds are a few. The benefits of buying from such vendors is accuracy of information and certainty about what you buy. The down side is that the diamonds cost much more than diamond bought from other sources and the diamonds have often (I would suggest usually) been repolished or recut in some way to clean up nicks and chips to the girdle (at best) or to "improve optics" with a full-body overhaul (at worst).

But many old cuts are offered by estate sellers who may specialize in diamonds, they are offered for private sale, or they are offered at pawn shops And in many of those cases, the sellers do not have accurate information about what they sell other than an "appraisal" of limited value, and in the majority of cases the diamonds are set into vintage mounts and sellers do not want to unset the stones. The benefits of this way of buying is sometimes a lower price (yes, I am very sure of this, the old cut market is decidedly different than the modern RB market) and greater assurance of an original, untouched cut stone (no guarantees though!). The downside is uncertainty about what you are buying.

I also want to add that the type of vendor does not automatically determine whether you are paying a good price. I have seen many old cuts offered by the vendors I mentioned for prices well below what you could pay in a riskier situation from an estate seller. And I have seen many estate sellers asking ridiculous prices. Any method of buying diamonds, and any source, has pros and cons and each consumer should buy from the source with whom they are most comfortable. Also, the price difference between retail old cut sellers and estate/pawn/private sellers is akin to the difference between the primary market and secondary market in modern cuts: You will always pay less buying "used", but there are downsides of risk. It all must be weighed and I don't think one source is inherently better than the other. This is the broader context of the quoted post I pasted, above, from another thread.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Yes, but from a vendor perspective, the diamond with multiple chips on the girdle and abraded pavilion facets is going to have a lot more interested buyers on that stone if he has done a little rehab. I would never buy one if those things weren't fixed. That is nothing like a recut. A full recut is going to potentially result in a branded stone that costs a LOT more! So I don't think people are going to come across too many of those and not know it! Full recuts are no longer antique stones, in my opinion.

 

[GemFever]

Dreamer, great post. I'm curious though, why do you say that vintage stones with cleaned up girdles are a "down side"? I think it would be a negative thing only for people who want absolutely purely vintage, in which case buying a loose stone (not sent into an original vintage setting) doesn't really make sense. Otherwise, what's bad about getting a stone with a clean girdle and no chips? As you know, I'm more on the "let's quickly polish out the chips" side

Some people desire un-retouched old cuts for a variety of reasons, not only because they come in vintage mounts. A large part of my enjoyment of my old cut is knowing it was cut a long time ago without the help of a computer to model the best use of the rough, for example.

That issue aside, the uncertainty is the downside, to me, not the actual practice per se -- though people vary in their opinions on the practice of fixing up old cuts on a continuum. But in my opinion, when you don't know what has been done then you can't even exercise your own right to have an opinion. This is not an issue of recutting or not recutting, but rather of knowledge, marketing, and provenance of a stone.

I have already made this argument, but a huge part of the "value" of old cuts is that they were cut a long time ago -- this fact is used to sell the romance of old cuts and also to appeal to cut aficionados. So I think that potential unknown "work" on a stone prior to buying is a down side for consumers, and not only from a "purity" perspective -- the value of an old cut might be affected by its recut status if that status was known and the recut was substantial. For diamonds cut today with the help of modern technology, many people would have MUCH higher standards for cut quality, for example! The same "old cut" could then have very different market values if it was truly cut 80 years ago compared to if it was cut this year, depending on how ideal its optics were.

I readily accept leakage in a diamond cut 80 years ago. Would you readily accept leakage and lazy facets in a diamond cut in 2013?

Great points, especially about having the power to know and decide for yourself. It's always good to have information.

But on the last (bolded) point, I have a slightly different perspective. I don't want leakage in my diamond no matter when it was cut -- unless I've seen the diamond with my own eyes and decided that the leakage doesn't bother me for whatever reason (usually that reason is price. If the price is right, I'll live with some leakage). So I evaluate more based on price and looks than actual vintage. That said, it is lovely to find a truly old diamond with history. That is special and quite wonderful.

 

[liaerfbv]

Bump! I love this thread.

 

[OECsareforLovers]

This is going to the top of my OEC Education file. Thanks for Dreamer for creating and other for contributing. You have renewed my hope in finding my OEC!

 

[Dreamer_D]

I am glad some people find this thread useful!

I posted this in another thread and thought I would add it here:

When I bought my ring on ebay it was sold as a 1.89ct G Si1 and it had big globby prongs. My diamond is about 8mm in diameter, which for an old cut is spready so I thought it might be bigger than 2ct! I unset the stone and weighed it and... drumroll.... it was 1.89ct. So clearly, the vendor had seen the diamond loose and then had poorly reset the stone. And of course they saw it loose. They NEEDED to know if it was over 2ct or not, just like the seller of your diamond would have NEEDED to know if it was over 3ct. So, it was my experiene that made me think yours has also been seen loose.

And, my seller had super washed out photos like yours aimed at obscuring the color. Once unset, my stone is a K/L SI2. Not the G Si1 represented by the very reputable estate ebay seller. ETA: I should say my diamond masks its body color very well, my appraiser guessed it at I color face up when set. So if I did not know that the seller had seen the stone loose, where its body color is much more noticable, then I might have excused the mis-grading on the "appraisal".

So, after that and a couple other experiences, I have my own way of interpreting ebay grades for color and clarity that are based on seller opinion or in house appraisals (i.e., most estate sellers).

"GH" in ebay speak means I/J/K.
"J/K" means M/N/O.
"K/L" in ebay speak means "Faint Yellow" (i.e., N-Q).

And there are only three ebay clarity grades.

"VVS/VS1" means the stone is likely eye clean, but beyond that who knows.
"VS2/SI1" riskier buy, maybe SI1 but could be SI2.
"SI2/I1" run away, this has huge eye visible inclusions.

Its another story with private sellers. Their appraisals can be quite accurate.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Image showing fish eye in a photograph. And the whole thread from which I drew this quote is really good for learning about old cuts -- it's madelise's search thread from 2012.

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/calling-dreamer_d-and-yssie-and-other-old-cut-lovers.175753/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/calling-dreamer_d-and-yssie-and-other-old-cut-lovers.175753/[/URL]

The first stone has a fish eye. If they allowed you a two week inspection maybe chance it to determine if the fish eye was apparent in person, or if a girdle polish would remove it -- fish eye is sometimes a rough girdle reflection. But with no returnsies, pass.

 

[LightBright]

Bumping for new members interested in evaluating antique cuts.

If anyone knows about a post explaining the different TYPES of old cuts, please bump. I’d like to provide some photo examples of Transitional, Old European Cut, Old Mine Cut, Antique Cushion Cut to our newer members.