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Does this cushion have a bowtie? Or just bad lighting?

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neatfreak

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Is there any way to tell from pics if a cushion has a bowtie? This stone was recommended to us by Mark at ERD, who I would tend to trust, but in the picture he sent us it looks like it might have a bow tie. Or do you think it might just be the lighting? Is there any way to tell if it''s just the lighting?

Thanks!
 

boston_jeff

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I would ask Mark and trust him for now (you can change your mind after you inspect it personally). Cushions require movement to really see how they return light under the table. At different angles different facets will reflect the light and others will be a little darker.

Isn''t "bowtie" observed through the width of the stone rather than the length? If so, what you are seeing here is not really "bowtie" at all.
 

Ellen

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Date: 3/5/2007 4:05:25 PM
Author: boston_jeff
I would ask Mark and trust him for now (you can change your mind after you inspect it personally). Cushions require movement to really see how they return light under the table. At different angles different facets will reflect the light and others will be a little darker.

Isn''t ''bowtie'' observed through the width of the stone rather than the length? If so, what you are seeing here is not really ''bowtie'' at all.
That''s my understanding.

And I too think you should just ask Mark, he''ll be honest.
 

neatfreak

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Thanks for the quick advice! I also thought bowties were only seen on the sides...and Mark said this is a great stone and he really has no incentive to tell us otherwise since he would have to call it in for us. So I will probably just trust him now that you guys also have the same opinions of bowties as me.


I just don''t want to bother him too often! THANK YOU!!!
 

Ellen

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Date: 3/5/2007 4:19:16 PM
Author: neatfreak
Thanks for the quick advice! I also thought bowties were only seen on the sides...and Mark said this is a great stone and he really has no incentive to tell us otherwise since he would have to call it in for us. So I will probably just trust him now that you guys also have the same opinions of bowties as me.


I just don''t want to bother him too often! THANK YOU!!!
Well there ya go.



And you''re welcome!
 

FireGoddess

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It looks pretty nice to me. Anyone can take a picture that either exacerbates or eliminates any bowtie effect a stone might have....so it helps to see the stone in different lighting conditions, or in person.
 

diagem

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You should ask ERD what faceting patern reflects the effect in the image....?
Does he have a correct faceting sketch he can show you?

What is the Total Depth?

It does look like an interesting face-up....

FacetReflect.JPG
 

neatfreak

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Depth is 68% and table is 55%. It seems to face up nicely compared to others of it''s size, and I think those are in a good range right?

What I love about it is it''s another ex/ex cushion, which seem to be hard to find.

As for the faceting...I asked for a cushion brilliant, but don''t know the facet pattern other than that. I''ll have to find out...
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 3/5/2007 3:50:25 PM
Author:neatfreak
Is there any way to tell from pics if a cushion has a bowtie? This stone was recommended to us by Mark at ERD, who I would tend to trust, but in the picture he sent us it looks like it might have a bow tie. Or do you think it might just be the lighting? Is there any way to tell if it''s just the lighting?

Thanks!
No... I don''t see a bowtie here - this stone is cut on a quadrant type (my personal unofficial term lol) and a bowtie requires facets at 3/6 o''clock rather than facet JUNCTIONS at those locations like this stone you''ve posted has.

It doesn''t look exactly like a modern cushion either though... it''s unusual. That could be a good thing! But it looks uinfamiliar to me.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 3/5/2007 4:44:50 PM
Author: neatfreak
Depth is 68% and table is 55%. It seems to face up nicely compared to others of it''s size, and I think those are in a good range right?

What I love about it is it''s another ex/ex cushion, which seem to be hard to find.

As for the faceting...I asked for a cushion brilliant, but don''t know the facet pattern other than that. I''ll have to find out...
that does not look like a cushion brilliant to my eye. It looks like some sort of modified. It might even be a 4pav main. See if you can get a copy of the cert including the "inclusion plot" (which will act somewhat like a blueprint of the facets).
 

diagem

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Date: 3/5/2007 4:48:25 PM
Author: Cehrabehra


Date: 3/5/2007 4:44:50 PM
Author: neatfreak
Depth is 68% and table is 55%. It seems to face up nicely compared to others of it's size, and I think those are in a good range right?

What I love about it is it's another ex/ex cushion, which seem to be hard to find.

As for the faceting...I asked for a cushion brilliant, but don't know the facet pattern other than that. I'll have to find out...
that does not look like a cushion brilliant to my eye. It looks like some sort of modified. It might even be a 4pav main. See if you can get a copy of the cert including the 'inclusion plot' (which will act somewhat like a blueprint of the facets).
According to the cullet facet shape..., Cehra is right!!!!
 

boston_jeff

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To me it still looks like an 8pav main "modern" cushion, although a little different from the ones I typically have seen... these have beenn described to me as an "X, X" cushion (facets create one 'X', facet junctions create the other 'X')-- this is what Cehra calls the "quadrant" cushion... with a 4pav main, you would not have the X going through the middle of the stone (instead you would have the mains here)... in the picture it looks like there are facet junctions here, not mains.

I think the confusion is that some certs call the "quadrant" cushions "cushion brilliant" and others call them "cushion modified brilliant" despite the same facet plots... and I'm pretty sure ERD calls these cushion brilliants...

This one looks a little different because it is elongated and might have an open culet.
 

diagem

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Date: 3/5/2007 5:10:40 PM
Author: boston_jeff
I think this is an 8pav main cushion... what has been described to me as an ''X, X'' cushion (facets create one ''X'', facet junctions create the other ''X'')-- this is what Cehra calls the ''quadrant'' cushion... with a 4pav main, you would not have the X going through the middle of the stone (instead you would have the mains here)... in the picture it looks like there are facet junctions here, not mains.

I think the confusion is that some certs call the ''quadrant'' cushions ''cushion brilliant'' and others call them ''cushion modified brilliant'' despite the same facet plots... and I''m pretty sure ERD calls these cushion brilliants...

This one looks a little different because it is elongated and might have an open culet.
NEWS FLASH!!!

Even GIA has tons of mistakes matching up the right plots/sketches or names to the Cushions they grade!!!!
I have seen plenty of identical Cushions with a certain uniformed faceting arrangement get GIA reports made from all different names and plots!
 

boston_jeff

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That was basically my point, so we don''t disagree... that 8pav main "modern" cushions can be "cushion brilliants" or "cushion modified brilliants"--

I was just saying that it looks most like an 8pav main modern cushion to me.
 

neatfreak

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I've got the plot: Any idea what it is? I guess it doesn't really matter because I do love the facet pattern on it regardless...but I am certainly curious! Now just need to get the BF moving before someone else takes it!

pico22fcert.jpg
 

elmo

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I think Jeff if right, my bet is it's one of the Daniel K style of cushions that's called cushion brilliant on the report with 8 "rotated" mains. The 4 larger ones result in the diamond-shaped culet, and two thinner mains terminate at the points of the culet top and bottom. There was no bowtie in the stone like this that I saw. More sparkle than big flash, but performs very well.

edit - yep
.
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 3/5/2007 5:10:40 PM
Author: boston_jeff
To me it still looks like an 8pav main ''modern'' cushion, although a little different from the ones I typically have seen... these have beenn described to me as an ''X, X'' cushion (facets create one ''X'', facet junctions create the other ''X'')-- this is what Cehra calls the ''quadrant'' cushion... with a 4pav main, you would not have the X going through the middle of the stone (instead you would have the mains here)... in the picture it looks like there are facet junctions here, not mains.

I think the confusion is that some certs call the ''quadrant'' cushions ''cushion brilliant'' and others call them ''cushion modified brilliant'' despite the same facet plots... and I''m pretty sure ERD calls these cushion brilliants...

This one looks a little different because it is elongated and might have an open culet.
yeah if you look at where the mains hit - the 8 hit the culet... but if you eliminated the culet they wouldn''t all hit the center point... that''s why it looks like a 4main to me. It could go either way really...

The confusion over what they use on their certs is maddening, isn''t it? LOL
 

diagem

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Date: 3/5/2007 5:19:38 PM
Author: neatfreak


I''ve got the plot: Any idea what it is? I guess it doesn''t really matter because I do love the facet pattern on it regardless...but I am certainly curious! Now just need to get the BF moving before someone else takes it!
If that is the plot on the report...., 90% its the wrong plot.
Based on the culet facet shape...., there are no eight pavilion facets reaching the culet area. (period).

Plus the 8 mains (on both pavilion and crowns) are not aligned the same.
The image still seems like a beautiful cushion to me.
 

neatfreak

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Date: 3/5/2007 5:24:56 PM
Author: DiaGem
Date: 3/5/2007 5:19:38 PM

Author: neatfreak



I''ve got the plot: Any idea what it is? I guess it doesn''t really matter because I do love the facet pattern on it regardless...but I am certainly curious! Now just need to get the BF moving before someone else takes it!
If that is the plot on the report...., 90% its the wrong plot.

Based on the culet facet shape...., there are no eight pavilion facets reaching the culet area. (period).


Plus the 8 mains (on both pavilion and crowns) are not aligned the same.

The image still seems like a beautiful cushion to me.




Interesting... That is odd considering that it is the plot that is on the GIA cert. Maybe they need to do some more research on cushions on PS!!!
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 3/5/2007 5:24:56 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 3/5/2007 5:19:38 PM
Author: neatfreak


I''ve got the plot: Any idea what it is? I guess it doesn''t really matter because I do love the facet pattern on it regardless...but I am certainly curious! Now just need to get the BF moving before someone else takes it!
If that is the plot on the report...., 90% its the wrong plot.
Based on the culet facet shape...., there are no eight pavilion facets reaching the culet area. (period).

Plus the 8 mains (on both pavilion and crowns) are not aligned the same.
The image still seems like a beautiful cushion to me.
oh I dunno DG lol - the other 4 could hit the culet *barely* :D

Just an aside - you have no idea how much I love having several cushion lovers to discuss/debate this stuff with :) :) :)
 

moremoremore

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I actually think it totally does look like a modern cushion...I think it's a fabulous stone and that is by no stretch a bowtie....I think it's fabulous!

Edited: I just saw the plot and it is totally a modern cushion...It's a tad rectangular which might make it look a little diff from mine...I can't imagine passing that up...
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 3/5/2007 5:28:07 PM
Author: neatfreak

Interesting... That is odd considering that it is the plot that is on the GIA cert. Maybe they need to do some more research on cushions on PS!!!
if they''re doing their research here, does that mean I get to name the cushions? Because if I get to name them, I''m gonna come up with something better than 4pavmain and quadrant and these other silly terms I use LOL How about a nod to Jeff and have "8 equitorial facets" and "8 equitorial junctions" LOL
 

diagem

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Date: 3/5/2007 5:28:07 PM
Author: Cehrabehra

Date: 3/5/2007 5:24:56 PM
Author: DiaGem


Date: 3/5/2007 5:19:38 PM
Author: neatfreak


I''ve got the plot: Any idea what it is? I guess it doesn''t really matter because I do love the facet pattern on it regardless...but I am certainly curious! Now just need to get the BF moving before someone else takes it!
If that is the plot on the report...., 90% its the wrong plot.
Based on the culet facet shape...., there are no eight pavilion facets reaching the culet area. (period).

Plus the 8 mains (on both pavilion and crowns) are not aligned the same.
The image still seems like a beautiful cushion to me.
oh I dunno DG lol - the other 4 could hit the culet *barely* :D

Just an aside - you have no idea how much I love having several cushion lovers to discuss/debate this stuff with :) :) :)
I seriously doubt it!!! Anyway you look at it...
IT IS STILL THE WRONG PLOT!!!!

Enjoy the debate...
 

moremoremore

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maybe i''m missing something..it totally looks like a more rectangular verion of mine which is that plot and ex/ex...

whatever. who cares. LOL.... It''s awesome.
 

neatfreak

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Date: 3/5/2007 5:29:40 PM
Author: moremoremore
I actually think it totally does look like a modern cushion...I think it''s a fabulous stone and that is by no stretch a bowtie....I think it''s fabulous!


Edited: I just saw the plot and it is totally a modern cushion...It''s a tad rectangular which might make it look a little diff from mine...I can''t imagine passing that up...

Regardless of what it is...I am REALLY REALLY hoping that my BF won''t give it up! We''ll just have to wait and see. I told him I was butting out of it now that he is armed with my PS knowledge. And I''m trying really really hard to do it!
 

diagem

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Date: 3/5/2007 5:33:51 PM
Author: neatfreak

Date: 3/5/2007 5:29:40 PM
Author: moremoremore
I actually think it totally does look like a modern cushion...I think it''s a fabulous stone and that is by no stretch a bowtie....I think it''s fabulous!


Edited: I just saw the plot and it is totally a modern cushion...It''s a tad rectangular which might make it look a little diff from mine...I can''t imagine passing that up...

Regardless of what it is...I am REALLY REALLY hoping that my BF won''t give it up! We''ll just have to wait and see. I told him I was butting out of it now that he is armed with my PS knowledge. And I''m trying really really hard to do it!
Good luck on it..., like I said..., it looks like an interesting beautiful Diamond.
 

jaz464

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If anything, I see some darkness going the long way (north-south). Difficult to tell in a single pic though.
 

dianne

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Your picture looks fabulous compared to what Mark sent to me. I didn't even show it to my boyfriend because he would have never allowed Mark to send it to us. He would have given up on it just from that pic. It was so bad that all I could determine was that I liked the shape. There were a lot of dark areas and Mark said he tried several times and couldn't get a better pic. The stone matched all my criteria on paper and Mark said that even thought the pic was bad he hoped I would look at it because he thought it would satisfy my request. I just asked Mark outright if there was a bowtie. He said no, we trusted Mark and we are thrilled with the stone.

I'm going to try to attach the pic that Mark sent to me. That will make you feel better...lol

Sorry, right now I don't have a way to attach pics from my camera or I would send you a good one for comparison to ease your mind. Just because of my good experience with Mark, I say you may want to just have a look


Good luck!

Edited to say: Big and blurry...not sure that helped much. My stone actually looks a little longer than this, too, so the shape didn't even photograph well....lol

cushion011607.jpg
 

Cehrabehra

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Date: 3/5/2007 5:58:20 PM
Author: dianne
Your picture looks fabulous compared to what Mark sent to me. I didn''t even show it to my boyfriend because he would have never allowed Mark to send it to us. He would have given up on it just from that pic. It was so bad that all I could determine was that I liked the shape. There were a lot of dark areas and Mark said he tried several times and couldn''t get a better pic. The stone matched all my criteria on paper and Mark said that even thought the pic was bad he hoped I would look at it because he thought it would satisfy my request. I just asked Mark outright if there was a bowtie. He said no, we trusted Mark and we are thrilled with the stone.

I''m going to try to attach the pic that Mark sent to me. That will make you feel better...lol

Sorry, right now I don''t have a way to attach pics from my camera or I would send you a good one for comparison to ease your mind. Just because of my good experience with Mark, I say you may want to just have a look


Good luck!

Edited to say: Big and blurry...not sure that helped much. My stone actually looks a little longer than this, too, so the shape didn''t even photograph well....lol
LOL!! I know what you mean - I think the pic at the top of this thread is maybe THE best stone shot I''ve seen from Mark. If you know what you''re looking for and you trust him though, it really is just verification. I don''t think his shots would have been helpful to me early in my search though.
 
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