Do you own a gun? What kind? What do you use it for?

[got2goldens]

Date: 3/5/2009 5:39:11 AM
Author: strmrdr
Some of the comments in the thread are extending into coming back and biting you in the fanny territory.

The criteria in all 50 states for self defense is being able to answer:
I feared for my life because ....................
In such a way that the common person would agree with you and that fits the evidence.
Beyond that there are some other cases that vary state by state.
For example in IL someone in your house uninvited is assumed to be a threat.
Lethal force can also be used to prevent arson to an occupied building.
You can not for example go out on your porch and use lethal force unless you can answer why the danger was greater waiting inside for the cops to arrive and deal with it.
There is no duty to retreat in your house but there is a duty not to advance outside your house.
The same goes for someone who left your house, in most cases they are no longer considered a threat once they are outside.
In Il you can not use lethal force to protect property some states you can.
In a few states your are required to try and retreat first even in your house.
Most states have repealed such laws.

Next up talking about and much worse using anything but standard factory ammo will raise an issue you do not want raised and can turn a no bill into a conviction.

next up saying how many and what kind of guns you have online is a no-no.
It is nobodies business but your own don't spread it to the world and ask for trouble.

Strawberries,
I'm pretty sure that Storm was talking about my commentary regarding the .22 caliber pistol/hollow points/Black Talons.
Not sure what is meant by "turning a no bill into a conviction," but point taken, Storm.

Kat

 

[movie zombie]

not sure which kahr it was but it was a .45acp. however, what really turned me off was the trigger pull: not heavy and doesn''t engage until the last minute. i was beginning to panic thinking i was doing something wrong but, no, the gun is designed that way so that police who use it as a backup gun have to be really sure they want to fire the pistol...or so i was told. i hated the trigger pull and said that i''d panic and end up throwing the kahr at the person instead of shooting!

more people are killed by a .22 than any other calibre. it may kill them eventually after bouncing around in the intestines but in the meantime the aggressor can have hurt you very badly. but it is better than not having any protection at all. please do not even consider a .25 for self-protection. while it is a rather fun calibre to shoot, the .22 is much more effective.

gunowners in california: please note that you must be able to prove that using your weapon was a last resort. you must attempt to retreat within your own home. you may not shoot to protect property.////this is not texas. you must have take a hand gun certificate test. it is easy. read the book once and take the test. the certificate is good for 5 years. owning a gun is useless unless you practice with it.

also, it has been established by the courts that the police do not have an obligation to protect you. additionally, with budget cuts, expect those calls to 911 to take longer for a response. already too many women have perished because they were on the phone with 911 when killed. just something to think about......

mz

 

[got2goldens]

Date: 3/5/2009 11:26:19 AM
Author: luvthemstrawberries

Date: 3/5/2009 2:35:33 AM
Author: gwendolyn
No, I don''t own a gun and probably never will as they make me very uneasy. I''ve read too many articles over the years about home gun accidents to think that I could ever feel safe with a gun around, no matter how educated I thought my household was about them. One day I may try shooting at a range, though, since it''s something I''ve never done.

Hey gwen - I truly believe that even the most educated children that know how to handle, aim, and shoot a gun are still children, with childhood curiosity on their side. When I have children around the house, no gun will be accessible. They make some really nifty locks with fingerprint recognition, so they''re good for emergency situations, but not accessible to children. And even adults who are totally experienced with guns still have to treat them with the utmost respect, because accidents can always happen when even experts get a little careless. So I can understand feeling unsafe - because precautions always still need to be taken, even when you are educated.

You should go to a range and give it a try! You just might like it!

Or even take a course of some kind - the instructors can be a great help.

I totally agree with Strawberries.
We have a 5-year-old, and we do have our firearms locked up tight in a safe. In addition to that, we are teaching her to respect them, but to still have enough fear about them to not go around them until she is older and able to handle one in a responsible manner. So right now, she won''t go near them, of her own choice. But she does have a little pink cap pistol and a little pink cap rifle, and is learning how to handle, aim and shoot with those.
I am pretty experienced regarding loading, cleaning and breaking down firearms, but I still treat every one of them as if there is "one in the chamber." This is one aspect of owning/using a firearm that one should never get lazy about!

 

[jet2ks]

Date: 3/5/2009 2:40:28 PM
Author: got2goldens

Date: 3/5/2009 5:39:11 AM
Author: strmrdr
Some of the comments in the thread are extending into coming back and biting you in the fanny territory.

The criteria in all 50 states for self defense is being able to answer:
I feared for my life because ....................
In such a way that the common person would agree with you and that fits the evidence.
Beyond that there are some other cases that vary state by state.
For example in IL someone in your house uninvited is assumed to be a threat.
Lethal force can also be used to prevent arson to an occupied building.
You can not for example go out on your porch and use lethal force unless you can answer why the danger was greater waiting inside for the cops to arrive and deal with it.
There is no duty to retreat in your house but there is a duty not to advance outside your house.
The same goes for someone who left your house, in most cases they are no longer considered a threat once they are outside.
In Il you can not use lethal force to protect property some states you can.
In a few states your are required to try and retreat first even in your house.
Most states have repealed such laws.

Next up talking about and much worse using anything but standard factory ammo will raise an issue you do not want raised and can turn a no bill into a conviction.

next up saying how many and what kind of guns you have online is a no-no.
It is nobodies business but your own don''t spread it to the world and ask for trouble.

Strawberries,
I''m pretty sure that Storm was talking about my commentary regarding the .22 caliber pistol/hollow points/Black Talons.
Not sure what is meant by ''turning a no bill into a conviction,'' but point taken, Storm.

Kat

Actually, I think he was referring to the shotgun shell loaded with nickels. I can''t conceive of any way that a conventional reload would be able to be used against you, but imagine if the intruder/victim is found to have been shot with $1.65 in nickels?

 

[strmrdr]

no bill or no true bill is when when the grand jury decides there is no case.
In a lot of states all shootings are presented to the grand jury.

Here is how reloads work against you, this is a paraphrased quote from Massad's trial experience and from his books:
Prosecutor in closing arguments:
Lady and Gentleman of the jury the defendant is so cold blooded that he had to make his own super deadly ammo to kill his victim.

It is an issue you do not want raised.
It is a good idea to find out what kind of ammo your local police use and use the same.
Here it is cci gold dot for 2 agencies and Remington golden saber for another. What another issues changes often and issues any 115GR +P 9mm HP.
Then if the question comes up you can present testimony that the xyz police department found that such and such ammo was the safest ammo for defense of its officers and you used the same based on that information.
It will be a police expert who they use on this issue imagine him/her trying to paint you in a bad light for your ammo then having to admit they carry the same ammo.

Then you have to survive in the second court the civil case.
It comes into play here even more so as the criteria for a jury award is less than a criminal conviction.
Overall it is a beatable issue but one that will cost you time money and energy in court to beat.

This ammo is perfectly named:
They actually have a brochure for this ammo that you can use as evidence in a court case for this issue.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/5/2009 2:51:30 PM
Author: got2goldens

Date: 3/5/2009 11:26:19 AM

Author: luvthemstrawberries

Date: 3/5/2009 2:35:33 AM

Author: gwendolyn

No, I don''t own a gun and probably never will as they make me very uneasy. I''ve read too many articles over the years about home gun accidents to think that I could ever feel safe with a gun around, no matter how educated I thought my household was about them. One day I may try shooting at a range, though, since it''s something I''ve never done.

Hey gwen - I truly believe that even the most educated children that know how to handle, aim, and shoot a gun are still children, with childhood curiosity on their side. When I have children around the house, no gun will be accessible. They make some really nifty locks with fingerprint recognition, so they''re good for emergency situations, but not accessible to children. And even adults who are totally experienced with guns still have to treat them with the utmost respect, because accidents can always happen when even experts get a little careless. So I can understand feeling unsafe - because precautions always still need to be taken, even when you are educated.


You should go to a range and give it a try! You just might like it!

Or even take a course of some kind - the instructors can be a great help.

I totally agree with Strawberries.

We have a 5-year-old, and we do have our firearms locked up tight in a safe. In addition to that, we are teaching her to respect them, but to still have enough fear about them to not go around them until she is older and able to handle one in a responsible manner. So right now, she won''t go near them, of her own choice. But she does have a little pink cap pistol and a little pink cap rifle, and is learning how to handle, aim and shoot with those.

I am pretty experienced regarding loading, cleaning and breaking down firearms, but I still treat every one of them as if there is ''one in the chamber.'' This is one aspect of owning/using a firearm that one should never get lazy about!

I have found that some adults are far more dangerous than many 7 year olds.
Which is why no one I haven''t trained touches my guns.
True story...
At the campground when I was 10 I was headed to the range with my bb-gun and one of the adults asked to see it as I was walking by.
He talked about how he had one as a kid.
He then loads it and shoots the guy in the next camper in the rear end as a joke. !$!@%@% %#%@$^@^@$
I lost my guns for a month over that one.

 

[jet2ks]

Storm,

Good point on the reload, never thought of it that way. (I guess when someone breaks into my house he will get treated like pheasant with #5 shot, since ALL my other ammo is handloaded.)

Another great point on using same ammo as police--something I had never considered, but makes perfect sense once you explain it. I would think that should also work as a defense if you picked the same ammo as a federal agency (FBI, US Marshals, ATF, etc.) right?

Side Note: I really appreciate your posts in all the forums--they are always well thought out, informative and many times

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/5/2009 4:17:53 PM
Author: jet2ks
I would think that should also work as a defense if you picked the same ammo as a federal agency (FBI, US Marshals, ATF, etc.) right?

yes....
The FBI actually issues rating that can be used also but they can come across in the wrong way.
This subject should only be brought up in defense of an accusation in court.

Buy some ammo specifically for it.
Practice with it enough to know where it shoots and that it is 100% reliable in your gun then use cheaper ammo for practice.
I recommend at least 200 rounds of it before moving on to practice ammo.

 

[jet2ks]

Agree 100% with the practice.

I asked the question because of travel. Figured it was easier to find one kind of ammo that shoots well in your gun that is used by a federal force than to try an figure out what the police in any certain area used. This wouldn''t apply as much in the cities where you can match to the police force, but out here in the wide open Great Plains, I can be in three different jurisdictions at once.

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/5/2009 4:50:24 PM
Author: jet2ks
Agree 100% with the practice.


I asked the question because of travel. Figured it was easier to find one kind of ammo that shoots well in your gun that is used by a federal force than to try an figure out what the police in any certain area used. This wouldn''t apply as much in the cities where you can match to the police force, but out here in the wide open Great Plains, I can be in three different jurisdictions at once.

Match the largest agency in the area or the state police would also work.
Or use ammo like the personal defense and similar products from others.
Then get a copy of the documentation and keep it on record.
Most of them will come with a copy of it in every box but if it don''t then get a copy.
That way you can prove you knew of it before hand and guarantees it can be used in court.

 

[got2goldens]

Date: 3/5/2009 4:01:39 PM
Author: strmrdr
no bill or no true bill is when when the grand jury decides there is no case.
In a lot of states all shootings are presented to the grand jury.

Here is how reloads work against you, this is a paraphrased quote from Massad's trial experience and from his books:
Prosecutor in closing arguments:
Lady and Gentleman of the jury the defendant is so cold blooded that he had to make his own super deadly ammo to kill his victim.

It is an issue you do not want raised.
It is a good idea to find out what kind of ammo your local police use and use the same.
Here it is cci gold dot for 2 agencies and Remington golden saber for another. What another issues changes often and issues any 115GR +P 9mm HP.
Then if the question comes up you can present testimony that the xyz police department found that such and such ammo was the safest ammo for defense of its officers and you used the same based on that information.
It will be a police expert who they use on this issue imagine him/her trying to paint you in a bad light for your ammo then having to admit they carry the same ammo.

Then you have to survive in the second court the civil case.
It comes into play here even more so as the criteria for a jury award is less than a criminal conviction.
Overall it is a beatable issue but one that will cost you time money and energy in court to beat.

This ammo is perfectly named:
They actually have a brochure for this ammo that you can use as evidence in a court case for this issue.

Hi Storm,
This is very good information, thank you.
I will say that we only use reloads for target practice. We will do our due diligence in finding out what the local PD uses as far as home defense ammo.
I have to agree with the previous poster, your replies are very well thought out and informative, for sure.

Kat

 

[got2goldens]

Date: 3/5/2009 4:17:27 PM
Author: strmrdr

Date: 3/5/2009 2:51:30 PM
Author: got2goldens

Date: 3/5/2009 11:26:19 AM

Author: luvthemstrawberries

Date: 3/5/2009 2:35:33 AM

Author: gwendolyn

No, I don''t own a gun and probably never will as they make me very uneasy. I''ve read too many articles over the years about home gun accidents to think that I could ever feel safe with a gun around, no matter how educated I thought my household was about them. One day I may try shooting at a range, though, since it''s something I''ve never done.

Hey gwen - I truly believe that even the most educated children that know how to handle, aim, and shoot a gun are still children, with childhood curiosity on their side. When I have children around the house, no gun will be accessible. They make some really nifty locks with fingerprint recognition, so they''re good for emergency situations, but not accessible to children. And even adults who are totally experienced with guns still have to treat them with the utmost respect, because accidents can always happen when even experts get a little careless. So I can understand feeling unsafe - because precautions always still need to be taken, even when you are educated.


You should go to a range and give it a try! You just might like it!

Or even take a course of some kind - the instructors can be a great help.

I totally agree with Strawberries.

We have a 5-year-old, and we do have our firearms locked up tight in a safe. In addition to that, we are teaching her to respect them, but to still have enough fear about them to not go around them until she is older and able to handle one in a responsible manner. So right now, she won''t go near them, of her own choice. But she does have a little pink cap pistol and a little pink cap rifle, and is learning how to handle, aim and shoot with those.

I am pretty experienced regarding loading, cleaning and breaking down firearms, but I still treat every one of them as if there is ''one in the chamber.'' This is one aspect of owning/using a firearm that one should never get lazy about!

I have found that some adults are far more dangerous than many 7 year olds.
Which is why no one I haven''t trained touches my guns.
True story...
At the campground when I was 10 I was headed to the range with my bb-gun and one of the adults asked to see it as I was walking by.
He talked about how he had one as a kid.
He then loads it and shoots the guy in the next camper in the rear end as a joke. !$!@%@% %#%@$^@^@$
I lost my guns for a month over that one.

 

[luvthemstrawberries]

Date: 3/5/2009 2:48:11 PM
Author: movie zombie
not sure which kahr it was but it was a .45acp. however, what really turned me off was the trigger pull: not heavy and doesn''t engage until the last minute. i was beginning to panic thinking i was doing something wrong but, no, the gun is designed that way so that police who use it as a backup gun have to be really sure they want to fire the pistol...or so i was told. i hated the trigger pull and said that i''d panic and end up throwing the kahr at the person instead of shooting!

more people are killed by a .22 than any other calibre. it may kill them eventually after bouncing around in the intestines but in the meantime the aggressor can have hurt you very badly. but it is better than not having any protection at all. please do not even consider a .25 for self-protection. while it is a rather fun calibre to shoot, the .22 is much more effective.

gunowners in california: please note that you must be able to prove that using your weapon was a last resort. you must attempt to retreat within your own home. you may not shoot to protect property.////this is not texas. you must have take a hand gun certificate test. it is easy. read the book once and take the test. the certificate is good for 5 years. owning a gun is useless unless you practice with it.

also, it has been established by the courts that the police do not have an obligation to protect you. additionally, with budget cuts, expect those calls to 911 to take longer for a response. already too many women have perished because they were on the phone with 911 when killed. just something to think about......

mz

Good info and advice MZ. Also, thanks for the info about the Kahr - that''s something I''ll definitely keep in mind if I go look at one.

 

[luvthemstrawberries]

Date: 3/5/2009 2:51:30 PM
Author: got2goldens

I totally agree with Strawberries.
We have a 5-year-old, and we do have our firearms locked up tight in a safe. In addition to that, we are teaching her to respect them, but to still have enough fear about them to not go around them until she is older and able to handle one in a responsible manner. So right now, she won''t go near them, of her own choice. But she does have a little pink cap pistol and a little pink cap rifle, and is learning how to handle, aim and shoot with those.
I am pretty experienced regarding loading, cleaning and breaking down firearms, but I still treat every one of them as if there is ''one in the chamber.'' This is one aspect of owning/using a firearm that one should never get lazy about!

Ahhh my brother and I loved our little cap guns when we were little. I had one shaped like a long barrel old western revolver, with the bone-look grips and all.

We absolutely WORE those things out, I think until they stopped working. Or maybe we ran out of caps and Mom and Dad quit buying them. Haha, or maybe we got our BB guns. Can''t remember. Anyway, good memories.

 

[luvthemstrawberries]

Date: 3/5/2009 4:01:39 PM
Author: strmrdr
no bill or no true bill is when when the grand jury decides there is no case.
In a lot of states all shootings are presented to the grand jury.




This ammo is perfectly named:
They actually have a brochure for this ammo that you can use as evidence in a court case for this issue.

Thanks for the info.

That ammo is the same kind I was talking about before for Irishgrrrl - the ones that are actually advertised for low recoil. Good to know they''re made to hold up in court too.

 

[luvthemstrawberries]

Date: 3/5/2009 4:17:27 PM
Author: strmrdr

I have found that some adults are far more dangerous than many 7 year olds.
Which is why no one I haven''t trained touches my guns.
True story...
At the campground when I was 10 I was headed to the range with my bb-gun and one of the adults asked to see it as I was walking by.
He talked about how he had one as a kid.
He then loads it and shoots the guy in the next camper in the rear end as a joke. !$!@%@% %#%@$^@^@$
I lost my guns for a month over that one.

Wow.

OUCH.

And sad that you had to have your guns taken away b/c he was stupid with them. Guess you should have gone running when he asked to hold your gun?

 

[luvthemstrawberries]

Date: 3/5/2009 7:59:33 PM
Author: got2goldens

Hi Storm,
This is very good information, thank you.
I will say that we only use reloads for target practice. We will do our due diligence in finding out what the local PD uses as far as home defense ammo.
I have to agree with the previous poster, your replies are very well thought out and informative, for sure.

Kat

This is what FI likes to do (or will do when he can start reloading) - use the reloads for practice and the good ammo will be kept in the gun when carried or stored for emergencies at home. And just shoot the good every now and then to get a feel for it and to get some new ammo in the gun and shoot what sat in there.

 

[2Artists]

Good thread. Mr.2Artists just took me on a date to the shooting range. I think learning self defense and shooting are great skills to have. I had no idea how many here are into this.

Mrs.2Artists

 

[luvthemstrawberries]

Date: 3/5/2009 9:02:48 PM
Author: 2Artists
Good thread. Mr.2Artists just took me on a date to the shooting range. I think learning self defense and shooting are great skills to have. I had no idea how many here are into this.

Mrs.2Artists

Me either! Pretty cool huh??

 

[luvthemstrawberries]

Hahahaha I just told FI about this thread... he wants me to tell you guys that we have a fully automatic AK.

And that everything we have here is fully automatic.

(HA!

Crazy man.)

 

[got2goldens]

Date: 3/5/2009 9:06:41 PM
Author: luvthemstrawberries
Hahahaha I just told FI about this thread... he wants me to tell you guys that we have a fully automatic AK.

And that everything we have here is fully automatic.

(HA!

Crazy man.)

Hmmmmmmmmm...put me on your list of friends, OK?

Kat

 

[2Artists]

Yeah it is really amazing. I told Mr.2Artists and he said that it does not surprise him at all. Go figure.

Mrs.2Artists

 

[strmrdr]

Date: 3/5/2009 8:59:34 PM
Author: luvthemstrawberries

Date: 3/5/2009 4:17:27 PM

Author: strmrdr


I have found that some adults are far more dangerous than many 7 year olds.

Which is why no one I haven''t trained touches my guns.

True story...

At the campground when I was 10 I was headed to the range with my bb-gun and one of the adults asked to see it as I was walking by.

He talked about how he had one as a kid.

He then loads it and shoots the guy in the next camper in the rear end as a joke. !$!@%@% %#%@$^@^@$

I lost my guns for a month over that one.

Wow.

OUCH.


And sad that you had to have your guns taken away b/c he was stupid with them. Guess you should have gone running when he asked to hold your gun?

yea I should have.
Very painful lesson that if you hand someone your gun you are responsible for what they do with it.

 

[luvthemstrawberries]

Date: 3/5/2009 9:22:07 PM
Author: got2goldens

Date: 3/5/2009 9:06:41 PM
Author: luvthemstrawberries
Hahahaha I just told FI about this thread... he wants me to tell you guys that we have a fully automatic AK.

And that everything we have here is fully automatic.

(HA!

Crazy man.)

Hmmmmmmmmm...put me on your list of friends, OK?

Kat

Hahaha ok will do! How far away from NC are you? Hehe we might have to be digital long distance friends!

 

[got2goldens]

I''m in MO. I''d much rather be in NC, though!

Kat

 

[vespergirl]

We don''t own a gun but I would like to - my husband, however, is against it.

I was raised in a shooting family, and really enjoy the sport. However, I never purchased a weapon of my own. When I married my husband, he was against keeping a gun in the house (which is weird because he went to military school which was 4 years of toting around a rifle.) Now that we have a little boy, he is really against having a gun in the house, because he''s afraid of accidents. I have to admit that even though my dad was very anal about keeping his weapons under lock & key, my older brother was always getting in to the gun closet as a teenager to shoot without his permission. None of us were ever hurt because we knew how to responsibly handle weapons, but DH has swayed me over to not having a gun with a small boy in the house, because we would never be able to forgive ourselves in the case of an accident.

 

[movie zombie]

vesper,

my husband is australian and has conflicted feelings about private gunownership even though he shot his stepfather''s rifles in australia and has shot many guns with friends in oklahoma. he knew i had a couple but i wasn''t really pursuing the issue.....until there was an incident on the other side of the ridge and the sheriff put out an automated call re a threat in the area for several days. that alert got my husband to thinking and he agreed that we needed [specifically me as i''m the one at home alone most of the time] needed more protection. since that time i''ve increased the stable quite a bit....and had to promise last june not to buy anything more for the remainder of the year. i kept that promise but then bought a nice semi-auto last month.

we do not have kids nor do we have visitors with kids.......but the realization of a potential for real threat changed my husband''s mind. there are good safe''s out there. perhaps your hubby will reconsider because he many never forgive himself if something happens to you or one of the kids because you couldn''t protect yourself.

mz

 

[Diamond*Dana]

No, we do not own a gun. They scare me and we have small children...I would not feel comfortable with one in the house.

 

[asscherisme]

Nope, never have, never will....ever.

 

[luvthemstrawberries]

Date: 3/6/2009 3:31:53 PM
Author: got2goldens
I''m in MO. I''d much rather be in NC, though!

Kat

Hehe. It was 75 degrees here today. But 3 days ago I was walking to work freezing in my scarf and gloves in 25 degree weather! And later this week, it''s gonna be cold again!! Haha, gotta love it.

Is it really cold up there?