Do all round diamonds have H&A?

[michela002]

Maybe this is a stupid question, but it''s just crossed my mind that I have no idea.

Do all RB diamonds have a H&A pattern? (Presuming of course that you are only looking at ideal or very close to ideal cut rounds.)

 

[Shay]

I may be wrong but I was under the impression that h&a was a specific type of cut, that other rounds look different such as old mine cut or rose cut (?).
Anyone feel free to correct me if I''m way off.

 

[Lord Summerisle]

This amateur says:

The short answer: No. might be ideal cut - but that doesnt mean it''ll show both the hearts and the arrows pattern - Arrows may look ok to some degree... but the hearts could be waaaaaaaaaay off. It''ll have a pattern sure - but how close this is to what is seens as a H&A pattern can depend on many things.

If say the meet point symmetry was off... ie the facets dont meet correctly - then it''ll throw the patterning. This is down to the way the reflected light shows the patterning. The Arrows only require a couple of facets to be lined up properly... 2 pav mains and a kite (crown main). These are the easiest to get looking ok. Its the Hearts pattern with the amount of facets required to line up - About 5 if i remember correctly...


say looking at the way the lower girdle facets meet:

\
-----
/

Good ^


\
------
/

Poor ^

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

Not at all. There are many ideal cuts that show no H&A patterning all. H&A means perfect symmetry that’s all.

On the other hand, perfect H&A would not be perfect without a perfect cut, all things being equal. I believe the strictest classing of H&A also dictates perfect cut angles, as the size and shape of the H&A is also derived from the crown/pavilion angles. I don''t know exactly how much this is true.


Phillip

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

Good post LS

 

[treysar]

But just becuase a diamond has hearts and arrows doesn''t mean that it''s ideallly cut,right? I mean, it''s just a pattern, right? There are hearts and arrows that are poorly cut too, right?

 

[Lord Summerisle]

I believe that is correct.

the patterning comes from the way light is reflected inside the diamond. it does not need to have ideal proportions for that.

But i believe also that the proportions DO have an effect on the way the patterning presents itself.

Tho there are many more folk round here who can tell you much better than me (and they can do much prettier pictures to illustrate their points than me )

 

[JohnQuixote]

The "Hearts & Arrows" effect is due to extremely precise patterning that aligns facets with each other.

A diamond with major proportions can be AGS0 without having well-aligned patterning: Here is an example of one.

For more on H&A patterning and standards, here is info.

 

[Maxine]

So, a diamond can be ideal cut w/out H%A

and

A diamond can be H%A w/out ideal cut???

 

[denverappraiser]

Date: 3/10/2005 12

6

1 PM
Author: Maxine
So, a diamond can be ideal cut w/out H%A

and

A diamond can be H%A w/out ideal cut???

Maxine,

Yes.

AGS-0 (which is what most dealers mean when they use the term ‘ideal’) without H&A is actually pretty common. H&A is a less clearly defined term but several of the vendors are offering H&A stones that aren't even round.

Neil Beaty
GG(GIA) ISA NAJA
Independent Appraisals in Denver

 

[JohnQuixote]

Date: 3/10/2005 12:18:30 PM
Author: denverappraiser

AGS-0 (which is what most dealers mean when they use the term ideal) without H&A is actually pretty common. H&A is a less clearly defined term but several of the vendors are offering H&A stones that aren''t even round.

And H&A patterning in a round does not mean the stone is AGS0. There are many H&A stones that are not good performers.

The best H&A are not only ideal, but what somecall ''superideal'' - meaning well-proven, tight sets of major proportions within AGS0 as well as precise H&A patterning.

 

[michela002]

Hmmm. That has been very informative! (And adds yet another layer of confusion. Lol!)

I know Whiteflash and Good Old Gold sell specifically H&A diamonds. Is there anywhere else I should be looking?

Also - for the .8 to .9 (possibly to 1.0 but I doubt it) range is H&A essential? For me, anyway? I have learned some stuff about diamonds on Pricescope, but I am by no means an expert, and not having seen a tonne of diamonds in person I wonder if the stone having H&A matters (to me.) I''m not an expert, so maybe it doesn''t matter. Although, FYI, what I don''t like about princess cut diamonds and radiants and other such, and what I DO like about asschers, emerald cuts and RB is the "order" inherent in them. To me, princess cut and radiants look like a mess of facets ... I might be wrong that''s just how they look to me. So that makes me think having the H&A in a round might be important to me, just so it "orders" the stone.

Does that make sense? Does anyone have any advice as to whether I should look for a H&A or just an ideal cut?

 

[belle]

hey indecisive! (mind if i call you indy?

)

i agree with your reasoning and the concept of having "order" in a stone. while i still like the idea of a nice square cut, as you said, there seems to be some chaos in the faceting. since i am very particular by nature, i can''t help but to be drawn to stones with precise h&a patterning.
do you need to have h&a? ....dunno, it''s a personal decision, but i have a feeling, based on your description, that you would appreciate the exacting symmetry that a h&a provides.
best of luck in your search!!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Indecisive

I know Whiteflash and Good Old Gold sell specifically H&A diamonds. Is there anywhere else I should be looking?


go to a retail store that carries HOF stones but don''t at the price

if you have a hart condition.

 

[PhillipSchmidt]

Still curious about an H&A aspect. Hope it OK to question it here.

I am still wondering how much a perfect H&A dictiate cut proportions. I can''t imagine perefectly shaped hearts come without just the right angles...

I mean to say that the hearts must have an angle to determine their length etc, and if perfect is perfect, with H&A graded as such with the strictest guidlines shouldn''t they invariably inherit a specific peoportionate angle?

I can imagine a long crown with a long pavilion might do as well with matching the pettern
(and equivalent short angles as well) but wouldn''t there be a relationship between the two that governs the cut?

We are all agreed that H&A dictates the symetry between the facets and in itself says nothing of the cut, but what exactly can we tell of the cut if the hearts are perfect?

What examples are there for H&A stones that don''t make the grade and they they real H&A? What of em''

I have long wondered about this...

Phillip

 

[michela002]

I was looking at loose diamonds yesterday and was told two things, and I don''t know if they are exactly accurate.

One, is that the whole idea of H&A came about because one particular diamond company/lab believed that a diamond having H&A meant it was ideally cut, that the H&A pattern exemplified the perfectly proportions in a diamond.

However, since you apparantly can have an ideal cut without H&A this makes me a little wary.

Quick question (and I think I already know the answer) - a stone having H&A means you can see the hearts and arrows under blue and red little machines respectively, right? You can''t look at the stone ordinarily and see the H&A pattern?

For me, this decides the debate. If you can''t see the H&A ordinarily it''s not so important to me - I would rather have an ideal cut diamond of about the .9+ size than an approximately .8 diamond that exhibits H&A (which is what my research has led me to.)

Of course everyone is different.

Thanks for listening to my ramblings ...

 

[belle]

indecisive...
maybe this thread about arrow alignment will help you to understand what you will see with a h&a stone.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Date: 3/11/2005 8:53:41 PM
Author: Indecisive
I was looking at loose diamonds yesterday and was told two things, and I don''t know if they are exactly accurate.

One, is that the whole idea of H&A came about because one particular diamond company/lab believed that a diamond having H&A meant it was ideally cut, that the H&A pattern exemplified the perfectly proportions in a diamond.

However, since you apparantly can have an ideal cut without H&A this makes me a little wary.

Quick question (and I think I already know the answer) - a stone having H&A means you can see the hearts and arrows under blue and red little machines respectively, right? You can''t look at the stone ordinarily and see the H&A pattern?

For me, this decides the debate. If you can''t see the H&A ordinarily it''s not so important to me - I would rather have an ideal cut diamond of about the .9+ size than an approximately .8 diamond that exhibits H&A (which is what my research has led me to.)

Of course everyone is different.

Thanks for listening to my ramblings ...

if i was buying a ideal cut today and the vendor is asking for ideal cut premium i want to make sure it falls into the new ideal cut specs that will be comming out later this year.you will need a H&A scope to see the H&A pattern but once mounted in a ring you won''t be able to see the harts as for arrows under certain lights, even without the scope you''ll be able to see the arrow pattern.

 

[michela002]

Thanks Dancing Fire

, and all who responded. You''ve all been very helpful.

 

[valeria101]

The arrows show... and I think you will see them on the .8-.9 diamond (it''s not exactly small, is it). The harts are just not on the right side

. The arrows appear even if the harts are not there - those are harder to achieve (I think).

Most of the ideal rounds in the "expert selection" at Whiteflash and the signature rounds at DirtCheapDiamonds have ideal proportions and show a distinct arrow pattern without qualifying for "H&A". At least by the strict standards touted around here for "true H&A".

Hope this helps

 

[Lord Summerisle]

I can see them in the .3 i bought - so should be able to see em in a .8/.9

 

[WinkHPD]

Date: 3/11/2005 8:53:41 PM
Author: Indecisive

One, is that the whole idea of H&A came about because one particular diamond company/lab believed that a diamond having H&A meant it was ideally cut, that the H&A pattern exemplified the perfectly proportions in a diamond.

Snip

Quick question (and I think I already know the answer) - a stone having H&A means you can see the hearts and arrows under blue and red little machines respectively, right? You can''t look at the stone ordinarily and see the H&A pattern?

For me, this decides the debate. If you can''t see the H&A ordinarily it''s not so important to me - I would rather have an ideal cut diamond of about the .9+ size than an approximately .8 diamond that exhibits H&A (which is what my research has led me to.)

snip

You are correct to be suspicious of the claim that it was because one company decided the H&A meant it was ideal cut. About twenty years ago EightStar developed their magnificent cut in which all 57 facets are perfectly in balance. About four years after that it was discovered that if you got just 17 stones into balance that you could create the H&A pattern.

As for not being able to see the pattern, in some lighting situations you can, but some people actually find this to be disturbing. What the pattern means is that the cutter made the effort to have at least 17 major facets in balance with each other, and if he did this within the correct combination of angles, the stone will return more light to the eye than a stone that was not cut to such exacting standards. So even though you may not be seeing the pattern, it is VERY likely that you can and will see the effects of that pattern when looking at the diamond.

Use your eyes when looking at stones, they will tell you whether to spend the little bit extra or to be satisfied with a stone that is "good enough". For many people it is good enough, for some it is not. There is no prize for belonging to one group or the other, just your personal satisfaction for betting the right diamond for you and for your lady.

Wink

 

[valeria101]

The summary might look like this, I think.

there are examples for every kind down there.

 

[Lynn B]

Date: 3/12/2005 10

4:41 AM
Author: Lord Summerisle
I can see them in the .3 i bought - so should be able to see em in a .8/.9

I agree. The flash of the arrows should be quite visible to the naked eye in a .8/.9 H&A RB. Hey, if I have my GLASSES ON, I can even see the arrows in my little .05 and .03 ACA melee stones! Really! AND I LOVE THAT!!!

Lynn

PS BTW, Ana, GREAT illustration!

 

[Maxine]

I can see the arrows in melee stones w/idealscope, and that''s about it

......oh well, guess I need to get bigger diamonds as I get older!!!

 

[Lynn B]

Date: 3/12/2005 2

4:52 PM
Author: Maxine
I can see the arrows in melee stones w/idealscope, and that''s about it

......oh well, guess I need to get bigger diamonds as I get older!!!

...or bigger glasses!

Lynn

 

[Maxine]

Which would YOU choose????????

 

[michela002]

Oh, decisions decisions!

It is good to know that you can probably see the H&A, or at least tell there''s a difference between an H&A or not at the .8ish level ... otherwise I''d wonder why to spend the extra money. Lol!

Thanks everyone! At least now my decision will be an informed one ...