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Disappointed!! 1.94ct Whiteflash G turned out to be H~I

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by Julyisjuly, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. Texas Leaguer
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    by Texas Leaguer » Dec 27, 2018
    Regarding feedback we receive pertaining to returns, we are open to learning any actionable information we can, while being sensitive to the 'no questions asked' aspect of our refund policy. However, many of our diamonds are destined for engagement rings, and there is a proposal and a second party involved. Sometimes customers are more comfortable stating some qualitative reason for the return, when it may actually be that the proposal did not go according to plan. So we have to bear that in mind when assessing the feedback. Sometimes multiple reasons are given and sometimes they may seem to be in conflict with each other. I believe the prior return July mentioned in this case falls into that category.

    We do have customers that are interested to know the history of a stone they are purchasing, particularly if it is a trade-up that has been worn before. It is our practice to share whatever information we can with customers.
     
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  2. KristyDarling
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    by KristyDarling » Dec 27, 2018
    To add on to Mrs-B's post...

    The blurry stone in my avatar was an AGS H 3.56 carat stone that I purchased in 2005 from a very reputable PS vendor. I found out years later that it was the equivalent of a GIA J. I was shocked, but that's when I learned about the differences in color grading between the two labs. I loved that stone but ended up selling it to help fund my cushion. But not because of the color issue - I just I wanted a cushion cut. :geek2:
     
  3. Texas Leaguer
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    by Texas Leaguer » Dec 27, 2018
    Good question @yssie , and what about a stone that has two GIA reports, one G and one H? This scenario is rare because GIA has sophisticated process in place to determine if a diamond has previously been submitted, but it is certainly possible.

    How do people feel when an AGS stone is graded lower than GIA? Do people tend to post concern about that? We see in this thread that all the focus is on the appraiser calling a diamond an H instead of a G, but not much commentary on the clarity upgrade.

    This is a dynamic that is played out many times online and is one reason why there tends to be a perception that AGS is 'softer' than GIA. GIA is the BIG dog- they invented the grading system. As the lab that set the standard, they are in many ways seen as infallible. When folks get an 'upgrade' from GIA (or from a GIA graduate gemologist) they tend to quietly keep their good fortune to themselves. If GIA grades the stone lower than AGS, people tend to voice concerns.

    And when you consider the number of AGS stones that are sent to GIA vs the number of GIA stones in the market that get sent to AGS, you can see how the numbers would be greatly skewed, and therefore the perception in the marketplace.
     
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  4. Blingalingaling
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    by Blingalingaling » Dec 27, 2018
    I went to a highly regarded independent appraiser in the NYC Metropolitan area, who asked me NOT TO tell him anything about the stone in advance of his inspection of the stones I had him appraise for me. In fact, after he did his entire appraisal, he then shared his findings with me and showed me the plots he did on each stone. Then we compared his findings with the GIA Certs. HE WAS DEAD-ON EACH TIME. A good appraiser, one who is worth his salt, will know what he or she is looking at. Maybe this appraiser felt so badly that his findings were different from the OP's Cert and felt so badly for her (based on HER body language) that he tried in vain to make the experience less upsetting for her. Who knows? None of us were there.
    I do agree that you can't compare small stones to large stones for color but the stone in question does not look like "G"-color, in my opinion, based on these photos and video.
    I think the OP might be right to question the correctness of this AGS Cert, but in any event, her confidence in this transaction has been shaken, so I think starting over and looking for another stone is the best way to proceed.
    We could argue all day about the validity of the appraisal or the Cert - whatever - this OP needs to find a stone that she truly loves and feels confident that she got what she paid for.
    Let's just leave it at that. :)
     
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  5. blueMA
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    by blueMA » Dec 27, 2018
    I've seen countless posts on AGS being softer on color over GIA, and some people also have sent their AGS stones over to GIA where they often come back with higher color and clarity.

    However, I've seen many recent AGS stones compare spot-on G compared to my GIA and AGS G stones in person, so I don't think it's necessarily that AGS is always softer in color, but the range/grading may be more generous based on anecdotal evidences.

    For me, I see the color differences very clearly, so it really doesn't matter what the cert says. If I find a rare H that looks like a G, I wouldn't hesitate to take advantage of the bargain, but that never happened.
     
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  6. Jimmianne
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    by Jimmianne » Dec 27, 2018
    It looks as though it needs to be cleaned for sure. Wiping is not cleaning.
     
  7. yssie
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    by yssie » Dec 27, 2018
    I strongly disagree with this sentiment. An appraiser who worked as a grader, and who has a lighting setup that mimics GIA’s, might well be in excellent position to judge colour and clarity the way GIA judges colour and clarity.

    Is an appraiser who has not worked as a grader “not worth his salt”? Is an appraisal setup that does not mimic GIA’s grading setup evidence of “an appraiser who is not worth his salt”?

    Well, that rather depends on what you’re getting an appraisal for. If you want your appraiser to parrot your GIA or AGS report - sure, just be sure to check that your appraiser is qualified and set up to perform this specific task. Appraisals - appraisers - serve valuable purposes beyond this: they evaluate condition of both stones and settings, they estimate retail value of gems and pieces new and old, they do optical analyses beyond what the labs (both the labs) provide. Some of these tasks will require different expertise and different setups from GIA’s labs.

    @denverappraiser I would value your thoughts on expectations, if you’d be willing to share... But first - I’m reporting my post to ask the mods if a trade member would be permitted to comment directly.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
  8. yssie
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    by yssie » Dec 27, 2018
    You too, darling H!!

    Your decorations are enviable this year - hopefully the pups are leaving everything (mostly) alone! :mrgreen2:
     
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  9. Julyisjuly
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    by Julyisjuly » Dec 27, 2018
    The guy was referred by a large diamond store in Dallas, Robbins Brothers. I called them and they don't do appraisal and give me the guy's name. Later, we contacted this guy independently. We can't say this guy is absolutely right or wrong, but he should have a reasonable jugement for most cases, otherwise the local retail store is asking for a lot of hassle when referring customers to him. I didn't tell him the 4C until he finished his assessment.

    The pictures and videos I took last night was in the room under normal house lighting which has some yellow tint. Let's see how it compares to other stones at WF store.
     
  10. kipari
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    by kipari » Dec 27, 2018
    Please keep us posted. It will be very interesting to see comparison pictures!!!
     
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  11. Stephan
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    by Stephan » Dec 27, 2018
    I once bought a 1.3 I-AGS0.
    The lab report mentioned a GIA inscription, so I found the GIA report and it was a J.
    The diamond was not yellow at all, but GREY.
    None of both reports mentioned it.
     
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  12. Blingalingaling
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    by Blingalingaling » Dec 27, 2018
    By using the expression,"worth his (or her) salt", I mean someone who has built a reputation for being reliable, trustworthy and accurate. As we have "recommended jewelers" here, in other walks of life there are recommended professionals with whom you might put your trust, such as doctors, investment counselors, etc. We need to have some basis for choosing one person to do a job over another. Reputations aren't the be-all, end-all, but they're a good place to start.

    My purpose for taking my stones to an independent appraiser is to confirm that I got exactly what I thought I'd bought, so that I would be sure to purchase the proper amount of insurance based on the value he'd placed on the stone (this particular appraiser isn't one of those who inflates the value). I also wanted his opinion on whether to buy a particular stone. In one instance, he advised me not to- and I'm glad that he gave me an honest answer. I didn't buy it and I'm glad I didn't.

    That's what I mean by "worth his salt"-maybe that's a subjective statement to make. I don't know what his lighting set-up is or how it compares to the ones at GIA. I do know he has had GIA training (I'm not near his card right now or my appraisal with his credentials listed on it-for all I know, I could be understating his creds). I do know his comparison set is GIA.
    On more than one occasion he was completely and totally accurate in his assessment of my stones. That is what I look for when I go to an appraiser.
     
  13. yssie
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    by yssie » Dec 27, 2018
    AGS wouldn't note grey on the report, period -
    https://www.pricescope.com/communit...comment-on-their-reports-if-the-stone.245523/

    And GIA will only note grey if the stone is K or below:
    https://www.victorcanera.com/blog/diamond-color-undertones

    Therefore your observation that neither report noted the grey you saw is, apparently, exactly as expected...
     
  14. crbl999
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    by crbl999 » Dec 27, 2018
    I live in DFW and there are not many true independent appraisers in the metroplex. I've always used Neil Beaty @denverappraiser as he is truly independent and well respected. Does the appraiser that you used sell jewelry or diamonds?
     
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  15. Wewechew
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    by Wewechew » Dec 27, 2018
    Did you use Steve Jarvis?
     
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  16. Texas Leaguer
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    by Texas Leaguer » Dec 27, 2018
    @Julyisjuly , You are certainly not alone as a first time diamond buyer perplexed by lab grades and appraisals! It may be of some comfort to know that you have started a lively and worthwhile discussion here that will benefit other first time buyers that come after you!
     
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  17. marcy
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    by marcy » Dec 27, 2018
    OP, I will be interested to hear what you liked in person at WF.

    IMO, I’d rather have an AGS graded RB than GIA. From the few I’ve owned or observed over the years the AGS perform better in all light than the GIA. As noted by another poster the branded super ideal cut stones are AGS.
     
  18. Doctor Jack
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    by Doctor Jack » Dec 27, 2018
    Mr. Boyne @TexasLeaguer,

    I am the buyer who returned the diamond in question. When I returned the diamond, I clearly stated the reasons for the return:

    1.The diamond had a yellow tint
    2.The overall size of the diamond was too small

    I was told by a WF representative that the yellow tint observed in the diamond was due to the setting we chose. Please see the attached correspondence with your company regarding the aforementioned reasons. I must say that up until this point I have been very happy with WF. However, I am quite disappointed with your statements in this thread. I do believe that you have omitted certain information, as well as, publicly speculated on information that seems quite personal in nature to your customer.

    You stated "and the previous customer returned the diamond because they decided to go bigger.” While this is partly true, you withheld reason number 1- the yellow tint. Then you went on to speculate/make assumptions regarding whether or not the “proposal” went as planned. I clearly stated to your team that this is an upgrade for my wife (as we have been married for 3 years). I find speculating in this manner on a public forum to be both unprofessional and unethical. There is a delicate balance, should you choose to share "the history of a stone...[and] whatever information [you] can with customers," between being forthcoming with a new customer and respecting the privacy of the old customer. Ultimately, the information you speculated on here is quite personal and I would expect that as the VP of WF you would know better than to share (incorrect) assumptions regarding customers on a public forum. I do believe the line was crossed here.

    I do not think that the reason I returned the stone should affect the next customer’s decision. However, I felt compelled to respond given the information shared by WF here.

    IMG_6900.jpg image1.jpeg
     
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  19. Texas Leaguer
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    by Texas Leaguer » Dec 27, 2018
    I agree. Just judging from the picture nobody would suspect this diamond of being anywhere in the near colorless range! It certainly looks nothing like the images of the stone on the website. I am looking forward to inspecting it later today.
     
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  20. TreeScientist
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    by TreeScientist » Dec 27, 2018
    https://media.giphy.com/media/pUeXcg80cO8I8/giphy.gif
     
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  21. CareBear
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    by CareBear » Dec 27, 2018
    OP posted initial thread in Nov where the 1.94 was one of her final selections. The stone immediately is sold to @Doctor Jack, who clearly lurks but does not post until today...
     
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  22. blueMA
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    by blueMA » Dec 27, 2018
    [​IMG]
     
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  23. Texas Leaguer
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    by Texas Leaguer » Dec 27, 2018
    @Doctor Jack,
    My sincere apologies Sir. In re-reading my comments I can see where you took offense.

    I was only trying to describe how it is not possible to know for certain what actually prompts a return. There are many factors and sometimes we get conflicting messages. I did review some of the correspondence related to your return and saw that the customer had indicated a preference for bigger, and also that they might not want a diamond of any kind afterall. I did not see any discussion related to the color grade of the stone and felt that the comment about the yellow tint was in context of the all yellow gold ring.

    But I do understand why you felt a duty to post these details. Please accept my apology. My comments were unnecessary and unwise.
     
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  24. Doctor Jack
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    by Doctor Jack » Dec 27, 2018
    Thank you for your response and I do accept your apology.
     
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  25. Texas Leaguer
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    by Texas Leaguer » Dec 27, 2018
    You are a true gentleman. Thank you.
     
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  26. Starfacet
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    by Starfacet » Dec 27, 2018
    I'm a Steve Jarvis fan too and so is @KKJohnson
     
  27. lovedogs
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    by lovedogs » Dec 27, 2018
    I have to say that threads like this are why I trust WF so much. @Texas Leaguer could have ignored this, or been defensive (as we have certainly seen from other vendors on PS in similar situations!) But instead he is thoughtful, apologetic when needed, and willing to look into this further to make the customer happy. Just wanted to say that I admire that in a VP!
     
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  28. CareBear
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    by CareBear » Dec 27, 2018
    Vendors such as WF need not disclose anything regarding the sales/return history of any of their stones. They do it out of courtesy. Try calling up Blue Nile or walking into Tiffany asking for the same!
     
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  29. Texas Leaguer
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    by Texas Leaguer » Dec 27, 2018
    I appreciate that @lovedogs. But I have to say it is easy to apologize when you know you are out of line. But it is not every day that you see someone who accepts an apology as graciously as @Doctor Jack .
     
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  30. blueMA
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    by blueMA » Dec 27, 2018
    I've turned a fan of Whiteflash because of @Texas Leaguer contribution to PS.
    Senior execs don't always get the complete detail reported up, and I doubt anyone was intentionally mislead. I wouldn't necessarily consider sharing some asked information of a transaction "private in nature" and inappropriate, as long as the person is kept anonymous.
     
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  31. EncikG
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    by EncikG » Dec 27, 2018
    Sorry but I really dun mind to highjack the thread but as the topic surrounds color grading..

    CBI diamonds are said to “As a general rule we observe that our Crafted by Infinity diamonds face-up 2 or more grades higher than their AGS color grade”

    Is that just marketing hype? On a side profile, face down, I’m sure the true color grade would still be observed right?
     
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