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Disappointed!! 1.94ct Whiteflash G turned out to be H~I

Discussion in 'RockyTalky' started by Julyisjuly, Dec 26, 2018.

  1. prbaglady
    Shiny_Rock

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    by prbaglady » Dec 26, 2018
    This has been my experience as well with all of the AGS stones that I have seen in person. They always appear to me to be about one color grade below comparable GIA graded stones. I can usually see color in diamonds pretty easily but I don’t mind the warmth. I would take a lower color if it means a larger and better cut stone—nonetheless I think that it’s something to keep in mind when comparison shopping
     
  2. whitewave
    Ideal_Rock

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    by whitewave » Dec 26, 2018
    Check the weather before you leave.
     
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  3. Matthews1127
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    by Matthews1127 » Dec 26, 2018
    I am going way against the grain, here.

    GIA & AGS are not the same, and it’s well known that AGS is the only lab that grades a “Super Ideal” Cut. I can’t imagine that, even if AGS is “softer” on color grading, it would be a 2 color grade difference from that of GIA. AGS will also not be “soft” on Clarity.

    These labs have specific protocol to follow. Normally, more than 1 certified gemologist examines a diamond, and grades it. You can have 3 different gemologists examine the same diamond, and each can agree on some specs, but they may differ on others by 1 grade apart. If you have 2 gemologists who grade a diamond at G, but 1 grades at H, it gets the G color grade. Same can be said about clarity.

    I’ve had jewelers & gemologists examine my center diamond under 10x-30x magnification, and ALL of them tell me that whoever graded my diamond had to have been on drugs because it should have been given higher color and clarity grades than it received. My DH got a HUGE bargain on my center diamond, if that is the case, and we won’t argue with the certificate.

    If you ship that stone to GIA, all you’re getting is a GIA grading cert. If you want a second opinion, send it to AGS and have it re-examined by a different gemologist to find out if there is a large discrepancy. It just makes more sense to have the same lab “double check” their certificate, using a different set of eyes.

    Certification and grading is subjective, based upon the eyes examining it, and what they “see”.

    An appraiser (GIA graduate or not) does not work in a lab, under the same conditions, as those who do.

    I purchased my Suite of 7 Vintage Cut Asschers from a diamond cutter, certified, and licensed. The stones are small, so they are not sent to a lab for certification, but he gave me his “educated estimates” based upon GIA lab grading standards.
    I am satisfied with his professional estimates, and I will use them as my “unofficial” Certificate.

    I doubt HIGHLY the first customer who purchased this stone and returned it rejected it due to body color issues.

    Speculating any kind of “misrepresentation” by WF is ludicrous. Sales people work with hundreds to thousands of customers in a week. I am certain your salesperson was not malicious when she said, “Wife didn’t want a diamond”. She probably confused them with someone else; it’s a simple mistake. After looking into the back story, @Texas Leaguer was able to give you a more accurate answer, as he researched. Either way, it has been confirmed that the customer returned it for reasons other than body color issues.

    Quite honestly, the reason why someone else returns something really isn’t anyone else’s business. I’m surprised that information was provided to you. That was rather generous, and forthcoming of WF. I have no doubt that WF would have taken measures to confirm any discrepancies pertaining to the stone against its cert., if anyone argued it was faulty. WF has a stellar reputation, and they would want to be certain they had correct inventory.

    I had my wedding set appraised for insurance purposes, last year. She appraised my set while the diamonds were in the settings, not loose. She looked at the cert., and copied the info onto the report, and evaluated the stones for their worth. FWIW, she commented that she was surprised at the color & clarity grades, as well. The appraisal still came back positive, and I was pleased with the experience.
    I can promise you, if I ever decide to sell my center stone (which I can never imagine doing), I will be sending it out to a lab to get a second opinion and a fresh certificate to confirm what educated, certified, and experienced professionals in the trade have told me over the past 2 years about my center stone.

    My final answer: send the diamond to AGS for a second opinion.
     
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  4. Dancing Fire
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    by Dancing Fire » Dec 26, 2018
    The next time when I'm in a jewelry I'm gonna compare my AGS H to some GIA H and I color stones. It is much easier for me since my ring is on a tension setting. My wife's stone is a GIA H (graded in 2003), but I haven't compare our two rings yet.

    Here is my AGS H
    2.35i.jpg

    AGS VSB I color Octavia.
    IMG_2392.JPG
     
  5. Julyisjuly
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    by Julyisjuly » Dec 26, 2018
    As an inexperienced first time buyer, we are very confused and lost at this point. I don't know shall I look for GIA certified diamond? With $24200 for diamond alone, I believe I can get a 2ct, a very stunning cut, Color G, VS2, GIA diamond. There are more GIA diamonds on the market and they are cheaper.
    As all said, the appraiser guy may not as professional as the AGS lab. However, he was very surprised when I told him this is a G. He told me this is a very very rare case that he graded almost 1~2 grades lower than the certificate.
    Also, this diamond could be a AGS G color, maybe at the lower range.
     
    Last edited: Dec 26, 2018
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  6. Julyisjuly
    Shiny_Rock

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    by Julyisjuly » Dec 26, 2018
    True, why other ppl purchased it and returned it, it's not someone else's business. However, put yourself in the shoes, if you are buying this large purchase (at least it's a very large purchase for us at current stage), there will be an anxiety in mind and will be curious to know why it was rejected to other ppl after saw it. It's online shopping limitation, you only get to see the one you paid.
     
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  7. sledge
    Ideal_Rock

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    by sledge » Dec 26, 2018
    As I've been reading through the various threads a few things keep bouncing in my head.

    First, the appraiser seemed confident enough in his color grading before seeing the certificate that he told you it could be graded an H or I. And that for insurance purposes he would assign an H but for buying purposes you should assume an I. You mention the AGS cert and a color grade G and he becomes less confident. Per your words:

    I think if you were paying attention to his body language you may have noticed this. His asking for a second opinion is confirmation of him being rattled. The words "her equipment again" then gets me wondering why she needs to test it again? Did she test it the first time, and he is diplomatically asking her to reaffirm her original grading position? If so, what are her qualifications? Perhaps someone in training? Or maybe he just meant he wanted it tested again, except by her and on her equipment and that he truly did the initial testing himself and she and her equipment are all properly qualified.

    Again, all body language reads but the fact remains you inadvertently challenged him by presenting the grading certificate and he changed his position. At the least, this tells me he wasn't confident in what he initially told you. If he was confident, why didn't he just grab a few stones that were "properly" graded G/H/I and show you the differences? Perhaps from his master set if no other stones were available?

    This brings me to my next observation. How did you feel about this diamond purchase prior to visiting the appraiser? Was the stone a fire ball and white? Was you happy? Was the appraisal just for verification you got what you paid for? My thoughts are that you were probably happy and that this appraiser shook your faith and robbed your happiness with a shaky opinion.

    So the final thought is where does this leave you, and how do you find resolve? Obviously your faith and trust has been rattled. I think going to WF where Bryan and his team can address your concerns in person is a great idea. They can pull other stones and let you see various colors side by side.

    Not to mention, they are the real deal. They have a set of core values they take very seriously and they are focused on people and transparency. Not to mention their own commitment to this community.

    For all these reasons and more, I just do not see them being malicious in their actions. I think you got a fair value and the stone is properly graded. However, I also know part of a great deal is feeling you got a great deal. Have some honest communication with Bryan and the rest of the team and I think you will find the resolve you are seeking.

    Please report back and let us know how it goes

    https://www.whiteflash.com/confidence/whiteflash-core-values/

    [​IMG]
     
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  8. bmfang
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    by bmfang » Dec 26, 2018
    Love those tension settings @Dancing Fire!!!
     
  9. Julyisjuly
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    by Julyisjuly » Dec 27, 2018
    IMG_3152.JPG IMG_3153.PNG IMG_3154.JPG IMG_3149.JPG
    I don't have other diamond on hand right now. The ring in comparison is from Tiffany and they are mini diamonds ranging from G to J. And believe since they are quoted in range, which mean the best color is G.
    I just took a vedio, the AGS diamond is very sparkle and I like it! But the color is really darker than the mini G to J diamonds.
     
  10. Julyisjuly
    Shiny_Rock

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    by Julyisjuly » Dec 27, 2018
    Another vedio: moving around the room to capture it against different background color and lighting.
    G color vs. Mini diamonds in G to J range
     
  11. TreeScientist
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    by TreeScientist » Dec 27, 2018
    I'm sorry, but judging by those pics and video and the pics taken by the appraiser, that diamond is surely not a G. I know AGS is a bit soft on color, but come on. Really?

    I think the appraiser was being very kind in giving that diamond an H color...

    Return it and find something that is actually a G. If you decide to stick with WF and an AGS-graded diamond, have WF take comparison shots (side profile, pavilion up against a white background) with the AGS diamond next to a GIA diamond of comparable size and color grade (WF carries GIA diamonds as well in their Premium Select line). In general, I think AGS is about a half grade or so softer on color. Meaning if it is a high GIA G then it would get F from AGS. If you purchase another AGS G, make sure it is a high G, or closer to F, on the AGS scale, which would likely be a true GIA G.

    My experience has been similar to @Kaycee2018. I've seen many GIA diamonds in both store lighting and natural lighting. I know what a GIA G looks like. The first diamond I ordered was an AGS G, and it definitely looked more like an H by GIA standards. I returned it and went with a well cut GIA diamond.

    BTW, this is probably the worst mis-grading I've seen. Usually AGS is a bit softer as I already mentioned, but I think the appraiser was correct in the borderline H/I call.

    ETA This would be a good diamond to use as a color comparison against any AGS diamond you may be interested in from WF. I would love to see this GIA diamond next to your current stone against a white backdrop...
    https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3784278.htm
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
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  12. Dancing Fire
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    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
  13. bmfang
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    by bmfang » Dec 27, 2018
    Has the AGS stone been cleaned?!?!?! That stone is incredibly dark for a G. The first solitaire I bought for my wife as an anniversary ring was a GIA G and on side profile it is definitely not that dark (nor is it that dark face up).
     
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  14. kmoro
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by kmoro » Dec 27, 2018
    I agree with those that say that does not look like a G. I have right now GIA G studs they are not that dark. I was so surprised by the pics that I thought my eyes were failing until I read other comments.

    imo, the best suggestion is to have the folks at WF have a personal look before you pick. I have recently learned the same lesson and also the hard way, lol.

    However ... I am not stressed at all and hope you’re not either. This is the benefit of dealing with a great company. I have complete faith that you will end up as happy as can be (and me too).

    :wavey:
     
  15. kipari
    Brilliant_Rock

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    by kipari » Dec 27, 2018
    Of you're not happy with it, just return the stone.
    Also, no need to avoid AGS stones for your next purchase. It's a reputable lab. If this is one of the rare cases where they mis-graded (it happens and it happens at GIA, too), you're lucky to be in good hands with an excellent vendor.
    Just ask whiteflash to vet the next stone for you. They are super honest and experienced. No need to stress. This should bring you joy. If it doesn't, exchange it . No need to hold on to a 25k diamond that you don't want.
     
  16. Jimmianne
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    by Jimmianne » Dec 27, 2018
    I was sent a gorgeous OEC by Grace and I rejected it. Too perfect, not enough “old stone character” for me. Then I bought JOY, a wonky cut, lower color stone & more pricey that I fell madly in love with.
    Someone snapped up the perfect and gorgeous stone immediately when I return it. So they bought a rejected stone. LOL

    The heart wants what the heart wants. There could be 100 reasons why a diamond is returned. You were in love with the diamond and lost it. Then you got lucky, having a second chance at your dream stone, and now instead of enjoying your good fortune, you are going down a rabbit hole. Which is too bad.
    I get it. If you are new to diamonds you are not going to have the same level of confidence.
    I hope you quickly get what your heart desires.

    PS. You are in good hands with WF. They are a great & caring company with beautiful diamonds.
     
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  17. Matthews1127
    Ideal_Rock

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    by Matthews1127 » Dec 27, 2018
    Yes. The body color shows in the photos & video. However, you’re comparing stones of different sizes, and larger stones are going to show more body color....period.
    This isn’t a fair comparison. I don’t know about anyone one else, but I see tint in the cluster ring, too....but it’s not as prevalent. 1. Because it’s a cluster of much smaller stones, and 2. Because they are set, and the larger stone is loose.
    You need two loose stones of the approx. same size, graded at the same color and clarity, side by side, table down to accurately compare them.

    I agree with @sledge. Your appraiser back pedaled a lot, after you showed him the certificate. Honestly, I think the appraiser got into your head, and now you’re second guessing the quality & pricetag of a super-Ideal purchase from WF.
    There are women in the world who will never know the beauty of a super-Ideal rock, in their lifetime. In fact, they’ve never even seen one, before. These diamonds don’t exist everywhere, and they come at a premium. The price you paid for the stone you have, with its current cert. is fair.
    Go to WF, and look at other loose stones with similar specs. Let them demonstrate to you a fair comparison.
    Then, make your decision.
     
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  18. yssie
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    by yssie » Dec 27, 2018
    @Julyisjuly
    Unfortunately it is very difficult to attempt “apparent” body colour comparisons between modern round brilliants - any brilliant patterning, really - of drastically different size, like this WF and those in your Tiffany piece. That’s because our eyes perceive the ways in which small facets and large facets (in small and large diamonds) play with light quite differently. To human eyes a small diamond will always look whiter and brighter than a large diamond of exactly the same body colour. The larger diamond will always look darker and “moodier”. Here are a couple of discussion threads if you’re interested - they have links to more articles etc.
    https://www.pricescope.com/communit...cut-diamonds-and-effect-on-appearance.144474/
    https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/full-cut-vs-single-cut.152010/

    Others have made excellent suggestions re. moving forward. I will simply echo the sentiment that if your grading report calls it a G, it’s a G. You need to be thrilled with your stone - you are spending entirely too much money to settle for something you aren’t completely happy with. Fortunately you’re working with a company with a very, very long history of doing all they can to make their clients happy!
     
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  19. OoohShiny
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    by OoohShiny » Dec 27, 2018
    +1 to what Jimmianne has said - it's impossible to speculate why someone returned a diamond to a vendor and I don't think we should worry about it.

    The stone I bought for my good lady I had been looking at for a while, but then it sold to someone else while I was vacillating :( Fortunately it then came back into stock! I didn't even think about why it might have been returned because I still wanted it and it still met all my preferred criteria, and as it turns out, the chap who returned it was actually on this forum, and he had just decided to go a bit larger in the end.

    It was and still is the perfect stone for me and my good lady :))
     
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  20. Texas Leaguer
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    by Texas Leaguer » Dec 27, 2018
    @Menlikediamondstoo ,
    This is an excellent point. I am not sure if this was a factor in July's case but this is a fairly common scenario. Much unnecessary confusion is caused by consumers withholding available information from appraisers, in particular an existing lab report. This stems from an understandable desire to get an 'unbiased' expert opinion. Unfortunately, most appraisers are at a disadvantage to the labs in the ways already discussed (experience, volume, lighting, masters, etc). Most good appraisers are skilled at identification, evaluation, verification, and documentation. Grading precision is not usually the core strength of most appraisers because it is not a core element of their daily practice.

    And if you think about it, there is an understandable tendency for appraisers to err on the side of being 'strict' on the grading of an unknown stone in order to try to best protect the client. This introduces an element of bias of a different kind. To a large extent it is self defeating to 'test' the appraiser in this way, and a little unfair (particularly if the diamond is mounted).

    If you avail the appraiser to the report upfront, he/she can properly consider that information in the workup. If there is disagreement with the some aspect of a lab report, the appraiser will make that known in their evaluation and/or consultation.

    Then as a consumer you can properly weigh any differences based upon the size of any deviation and the overall credentials, experience, and infrastructure that the appraiser has versus the reputation of the lab issuing the report. This approach will generally lead to a better, more rational outcome.
     
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  21. rockysalamander
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    by rockysalamander » Dec 27, 2018
    First, work with WF. They will find something that you will love. Send this back and give them a chance to make this right for you. You risk nothing because you can get a refund or upgrade. I think your eyes are looking for GIA colors. So, once you narrow your replacement to a stone, ask WF to send it to GIA for a re-grading. I would offer to pay for it myself (under $200). If it grades better, you keep the benefit. If it grades lower, you select something else. With your color sensitivity in mind, they won't steer you to stones that are at the "margins" of any color band. I would not worry about VS1/VS2. That is more subjective than color IMHO.

    Just to offer some perspective. There is no "standard" of color that all grading houses use. Its not an international-mathematical standard like Pantone. Each of the major houses has a standard reference set of stones they use (physical reference diamonds). GIA color, for many of us, is our reference either by training or by what we see the most. So, an AGS G and GIA G may be different as they use different reference sets. In my experience with modern rounds, where I see differences between the two houses is "at the margins". By that, I mean that a stone on the edge of a GIA color may be bumped to the higher color in a AGS system. But, a solid H will be the same in both.

    I also think if WF received a stone with a too "high" in grading, they would have flagged that and maybe sent it back for a re-grading. This might sound a bit crazy, but they stand by their product and a few thousand (or $5000) on one stone is not worth risking their reputation. We've seen this ethos repeatedly here from them. Something that said "G" and was an "I" would have been ringing visually bells for anyone at WF.

    But, that's technical stuff. What matters in that YOU are not happy. Work with WF to get a stone YOU love.
     
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  22. OoohShiny
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    by OoohShiny » Dec 27, 2018
    I would be interested to see if any appraisers have a set of both GIA and AGS Master Stones that could both be lined up and photographed side-by-side in one place under the same lighting conditions!
     
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  23. ccuheartnurse
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    by ccuheartnurse » Dec 27, 2018
    I've owned 6 J's of varying sizes both from GIA & AGS labs. The whitest J I owned was the largest with an AGS cert. As long as I'm buying GIA or AGS, I don't fall into one is stricter than the other. To me, both are reputable which is key. I also wanted to add I have 4 H's & 1 G, & neither of them show like your G. I think the best thing is to do what you're doing, go in person to Whiteflash. Have them line up some stones without telling you what colours they are & see what your eyes tell you. You may be colour sensitive & this will help pinpoint your personal preferences. Good luck.
     
    Last edited: Dec 27, 2018
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  24. Julyisjuly
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    by Julyisjuly » Dec 27, 2018
    It is cleaned, I wiped it before took pictures/vedio.
    I understand it's not a fair comparison as the Tiffany ring are made of mini diamonds. However, they are lower color mini diamonds, Tiffany's in house report says G to J. they didn't disclose how many of them are G, how many are J. With that being said, a couple maybe be G, a lot of them are H,I,J.
    We are driving to WF Houston from Dallas now. I am lucky to have you experienced folks here discuss with me and help me think it through.
    Also happy WF is very responsive and aiming to help. Will see how it goes. Thanks!!!
     
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  25. Karl_K
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    by Karl_K » Dec 27, 2018
    AGS uses a GIA master set for calibrating its master sets.
     
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  26. CareBear
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    by CareBear » Dec 27, 2018
    It's great that you have the option of going to WF in person! I have no doubt that WF will resolve this issue to your satisfaction. Please keep us updated, very curious how your G compares to others ACA Gs!
     
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  27. mrs-b
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    by mrs-b » Dec 27, 2018
    Hi @Julyisjuly

    AGS is known to be more strict on cut grading. But GIA is known to be more strict on color grading - and I'm not sure why people in this thread aren't adding that more to the comments.

    Let me say right off the bat - WhiteFlash is one of the best companies in the business. And they are ethical, ethical, ETHICAL. Due to the emphasis they place on their ACA cut, it makes no sense for them to grade with any lab other than AGS. And so they do. However....

    I bought an H stone from them. Definitely an H - lovely and white. Then I bought an I. VERY tinted and struck me more like a GIA J. So I returned it. I went to an F to be Absolutely. Sure. I would have a very white stone - and my stone is now, indeed, colorless and I love it.

    Before I bought through WF, I bought a number of diamonds through a different vendor. I'm attaching a photo of the AGS graded super-ideal cut G colored stone I got from them. Despite being an AGS G, this stone strikes me as a GIA I. It has a definite yellow tint, and is between 2 GIA G colored pears. Pears are known to show tint at their ends, but the tint in these pears is nothing compared to the tint in the super ideal cut center stone. I wish I had a better, close-up photo to show you, but hopefully this will give you an idea. This photo was taken in an all-white environment, so the stone is not picking up any surrounding color. It's the 3 stone ring furthest left in the photo. I bought this AGS G because prior to that I had, from the same vendor - NOT WF - an AGS H, and it had a definite yellow tint to it. I had bought the AGS H because before that, I'd had a GIA H - nice and white, no tint. I should say that my GIA H, and the AGS H I had from WhiteFlash looked, to my eye, to be exactly the same level of color - nice and white, no obvious sideways tint. But the previous AGS H had an obviously warm cast to it, and the AGS G was...as you see...

    20171117_111625_resized.jpg

    So - to summarize - my GIA H was white, my first AGS H was very tinted. My AGS G from the same vendor - also tinted, as you can see in the photo. Then my AGS H from Whiteflash - back to white. Then my WF AGS I - obviously creamy and more than one grade warmer than the previous stone. Now I'm at a WF AGS F color, and it's VERY white and particularly beautiful. :)) I also had a GIA appraiser take a look at it, and she said "Definite F" - with no prior knowledge of its AGS grading.

    So all this to say - I find AGS grading for color definitely softer than GIA color grading and not always reliable. This is not a new opinion, nor rare. The solution is pretty straight forward; if you're not fond of the tint level in your stone, go up a color grade. Alternately, try a bunch of different G's; they're not all the exact same color, and trying on a few will probably get you what you're looking for.

    As regards your appraiser - there's no reason to automatically assume he's incorrect, and I found it disappointing that virtually every comment here suggests there is either something wrong with his methods or his level of skill. Take a good look around the PS boards; you'll find countless comments about the AGS color phenomenon.

    Good luck!
     
  28. blueMA
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    by blueMA » Dec 27, 2018
    As others have already mentioned, you should not compare smaller stones with a bigger stone for color comparison. In my experience, smaller stones always look whiter within the same color range.

    However, whether the stone is properly rated G or not by an official body, I'd reject the stone based on your photos and videos. I'm very color sensitive and never go below G on a diamond, and there's no way I'd accept that stone as a G stone. I agree with your appraiser's assessment in this case.

    You're doing the right thing to drive over to Whiteflash to choose your stone.
     
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  29. yssie
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    Aug 14, 2009
    by yssie » Dec 27, 2018
    Ditto this. Lots of posts wanting to hang the appraiser - inappropriately, IMO. As @Texas Leaguer already explained much more eloquently than I was about to... withholding critical information from the expert one has hired to evaluate a purchase is neither fair nor fruitful: if the appraiser 'gets it wrong' either he's judged to be incompetent or his client leaves confused and concerned. Or, occasionally, both, as has happened here.

    In @Julyisjuly's defense - this sort of "test" does seem like a reasonable ask, and the appraiser should have asked for all documentation outright instead of letting himself be led into it :(sad


    A general question for this thread - if a stone has two reports, one from AGSL proclaiming it to be a G and another from GIA stating H... how would people feel? Does the presence of one report negate the other? Or must both agree to be "mind clean"?
     
    LightBright, Nitedula, bmfang and 5 others like this.
  30. mrs-b
    Ideal_Rock

    Messages:
    5,109
    Joined:
    Aug 18, 2013
    by mrs-b » Dec 27, 2018
    <threadjack>

    Merry Christmas, @yssie! :wavey:

    <end threadjack>
     
    Gemsheeny1 and Matthews1127 like this.

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