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Did I get cheated by one of the site sponsors?

joelj

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
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14
I won't name any names yet.

I purchased a 3.6 ct round diamond about 2 months ago from a sponsor of this site. It was sold as an AGS I SI1 ideal. We went to have the diamond set today and the jeweler who cast the ring says there is a GIA number on the girdle. A GIA number on an AGS stone? Sure enough, GIA 2171725278. He pulled the certificate. GIA grades it I, SI2. The AGS report is dated June 2016 and the GIA report July 2016. They differ slightly on the measurements but I'm pretty sure it's the same diamond. The weight is the same on both certs.

Is this common? Did I get scammed? The jeweler who set the stone was angry to see this. My guess is they had the AGS grading then went for GIA, but when GIA came back lower they sold it with the AGS certificate. But why get the inscription?

Do you think there's any chance the seller didn't know about the GIA inscription? And the big question, all other things being equal, would someone typically pay more for a GIA SI2 or an AGS SI1?
 

distracts

Ideal_Rock
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Oct 11, 2011
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5,495
This is fairly common. You did not buy a GIA I SI2, but an AGS I SI1, so you did not get scammed. It would be a scam if you were told it was a GIA I SI1. All told, the difference in one clarity level is fairly minor.
 

Crazie4Cuts

Shiny_Rock
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Oct 9, 2014
Messages
430
I would go back to the seller and let them know that there is a GIA inscription on the diamond which your jeweler found. But you received and purchased an AGS certified stone so you will also need to have the GIA cert. I don't have any experience with this happening, but a grade lower in clarity can occur from different laboratories.
 

Niel

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Well I'm confused. You mentioned the gia inscription but not the ags inscription, did it not have a ags inscription?

If it has both you didn't get screwed.
 

soxfan

Ideal_Rock
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AGS is a much more reputable lab- if you have a cert that says AGS I SI1 then that's what you have. GIA has been incredibly inconsistent as of late.
 

soxfan

Ideal_Rock
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joelj|1474755920|4080384 said:
The jeweler who set the stone was angry to see this.
WHY would he be angry? Sounds like he's angry that you didn't buy the stone from him. :lol:
 

Niel

Super_Ideal_Rock
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soxfan|1474759219|4080406 said:
AGS is a much more reputable lab- if you have a cert that says AGS I SI1 then that's what you have. GIA has been incredibly inconsistent as of late.
If you have a cert that says the same number as is inscribed on the stone then that's what you have.

I am not sure i agree gia has been inconsistent. I suspect he sent it to both and was going to use whichever cert would get him more money.

Everything should be on the up and up if it has both inscriptions and the gia cert mentions it has an inscription (the number from ags) on it.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
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Well. The stone was graded by AGS as I SI1 and it was sold as such with an AGS official lab report. It is not a scam.

Yes it is true the vendor/cutter resent the stone to GIA for a second report. i guess they were hoping to get H color for more profit. Instead, it got dinged on clarity. Of course, it sucks that the vendor did not disclose this information. But it is not a scam IMO.

So your stones clarity is somewhere between SI1 and SI2, depending on the grader. It could have gone either way and that is what happened.

I saw the AGS lab report. There should not be AGS inscription as it is not written on the report. My AGS stone is also not inscripted. It says something like "AGS xxxxxxxx has been inscribed" when inscription is performed. (my understanding is that there is a additional fee). I believe GIA automatically adds inscription when grading. And thats what you and your jeweller see. GIA inscription only.

Now the question is where is the original copy of GIA report?? You should contact the seller and ask for it.
 

Niel

Super_Ideal_Rock
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flyingpig|1474760215|4080416 said:
Well. The stone was graded by AGS as I SI1 and it was sold as such with an AGS official lab report. It is not a scam.

Yes it is true the vendor/cutter resent the stone to GIA for a second report. i guess they were hoping to get H color for more profit. Instead, it got dinged on clarity. Of course, it sucks that the vendor did not disclose this information. But it is not a scam IMO.

So your stones clarity is somewhere between SI1 and SI2, depending on the grader. It could have gone either way and that is what happened.

I saw the AGS lab report. There should not be AGS inscription as it is not written on the report. My AGS stone is also not inscripted (my understanding is that there is a additional fee). I believe GIA automatically adds inscription when grading.

Now the question is where is the original copy of GIA report?? You should contact the seller and ask for it.
Thank you for clarifying I was under the impression all ags stones are inscribed. How does anyone know once a stone is set which cert goes with which. That seems fundamentally flawed
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
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Niel|1474760307|4080417 said:
flyingpig|1474760215|4080416 said:
Well. The stone was graded by AGS as I SI1 and it was sold as such with an AGS official lab report. It is not a scam.

Yes it is true the vendor/cutter resent the stone to GIA for a second report. i guess they were hoping to get H color for more profit. Instead, it got dinged on clarity. Of course, it sucks that the vendor did not disclose this information. But it is not a scam IMO.

So your stones clarity is somewhere between SI1 and SI2, depending on the grader. It could have gone either way and that is what happened.

I saw the AGS lab report. There should not be AGS inscription as it is not written on the report. My AGS stone is also not inscripted (my understanding is that there is a additional fee). I believe GIA automatically adds inscription when grading.

Now the question is where is the original copy of GIA report?? You should contact the seller and ask for it.
Thank you for clarifying I was under the impression all ags stones are inscribed. How does anyone know once a stone is set which cert goes with which. That seems fundamentally flawed
In this case, the stone is fairly large and has a unique inclusion map. It would fairly easy to identify this particular stone with a loupe. Also, if the cutter/vendor was thinking of sending the stone to GIA at the first place for a second report (if they did not agree with AGS report), it would be logical to not include AGS inscription.

Of course, I am just thinking of a possible scenario from consumers point of view. I am no expert.
 

Snowdrop13

Brilliant_Rock
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Aug 27, 2011
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1,860
Won't this have implications if the OP wishes to sell the diamond at some point in the future? The diamond is inscribed with a number that corresponds to a certificate that says it is I, SI2.
 

flyingpig

Ideal_Rock
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The OP may decide to sell it as a AGS I SI1 (and hope the buyer does not notice the inscription) or as a dual graded I SI1/SI2 by AGS and GIA.

If I were the OP, depending on the price, I would contact the dealer and potentially ask for a refund (though not a scam, I, too, would be upset as well), or get that GIA report ASAP. The GIA report should belong to the owner of the stone.
 

oldminer

Ideal_Rock
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It would have been intelligent business to have removed the GIA inscription on the stone. The person who told you that the AGS lab is more reputable than the GIA lab could not possibly know what they are talking about as if they really would be able to know such a thing. Such a judgment would be highly subjective and would sound like an empty claim to nearly anyone in the trade. Most in the trade respect both labs and the vast majority vote with their business going to the GIA. Whatever reasons you wish to say causes this business to go to GIA are highly complex and diverse. There is no single reason which would be so compelling. Both labs are perfectly credible and AGS deserves a wider scope of acceptance and influence. However, their own strategy of grading the cut more tightly has not benefitted their otherwise excellent work.

You weren't cheated. No one made you buy one diamond versus another. If you don't want the diamond you have and can still return it, feel free, of course. If you are past the point of return, it may be best to look into obtaining a deeper understanding of the subjective nature of diamond grading, even at the highest laboratory levels. All diamond dealers have made peace with the idea that the grade on such certs is "the grade". Diamonds are generally priced according to the way the dealer feels that particular stone fits into the market. Stones with strong grades may be priced a bit lower to reflect their dealer perceived slightly lower grade. Diamonds graded a bit low by a lab may be price a bit higher by the selling dealer and the dealer may even appeal such a grade to try to get it raised officially and they very often do succeed in getting a grade raised.

The trade lives with such subjectivity and the public must live with it, too. Leaving that GIA inscription on the stone was either a mistake, or not noticed. It is very upsetting for you, but dealers get over such stuff and you must also overcome. Did you show this stone to an appraiser upon receipt? If you did and the appraiser did a thorough job, you would have been advised right away. Maybe this is a one more good reason not to place blind faith in paperwork and reputations. The best quality control I know of is a real expert checking the results at the point of delivery.
 

mrs-b

Ideal_Rock
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I'd be upset also. Not because the stone was graded at 2 labs (I mean - why shouldn't it be?) but because the vendor had more information about the stone than what he passed on to me as the buyer. Cherry picking information and withholding what might not suit one's position in a trade is subjective at best, dishonest at worst.

Since both labs are reputable - from everything I read and from my own and a myriad of other people's experiences - then why should both results not have been reported to the buyer? 'Mind clean' is a real thing for a lot of buyers and I, for one, know I'd be willing to buy an SI1 stone, but not an SI2 stone, unless in special circumstances - which it is up to me to decide.

Did they lie to you? No. Did they omit to tell you everything they knew? Yes. And that, to me, is deception. At the very least, self serving convenience. I prefer a greater level of transparency than that. I completely understand that there is subjectivity in the trade. But I should still be given all the information the vendor has so I can make my own decision as to whether, in this specific instance, I want to pay for a stone which has been graded differently due to that subjectivity. Don't play fast and loose with my money or my trust in you as a vendor.
 

missy

Super_Ideal_Rock
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mrs-b|1474809357|4080545 said:
I'd be upset also. Not because the stone was graded at 2 labs (I mean - why shouldn't it be?) but because the vendor had more information about the stone than what he passed on to me as the buyer. Cherry picking information and withholding what might not suit one's position in a trade is subjective at best, dishonest at worst.

Since both labs are reputable, from everything I read and from mine and a myriad of other people's experiences, then why should both results not have been reported to the buyer? 'Mind clean' is a real thing for a lot of buyers and I, for one, know I'd be willing to buy an SI1 stone, but not an SI2 stone, unless in special circumstances - which it is up to me to decide.

Did they lie to you? No. Did they omit to tell you everything they knew? Yes. And that, to me, is deception. At the very least, self serving convenience. I prefer a greater level of transparency than that. I completely understand that there is subjectivity in the trade. But I should still be given all the information the vendor has so I can make my own decision as to whether, in this specific instance, I want to pay for a stone which has been graded differently due to that subjectivity. Don't play fast and loose with my money or my trust in you as a vendor.
Yes this is how I would feel. It was a deception and less than honest not to share this info with the buyer.

YES Grading is somewhat subjective and not a black and white science but they had both labs grade this stone and then used the one that suited their sale best. This was dishonest IMO.

As an example of integrity and honesty sometimes (if memory serves me correctly) Erica or Grace have their stones graded by both labs but they always include both certificates. That is what should have been done (and the info disclosed to the buyer) here.
 

Karl_K

Ideal_Rock
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mrs-b|1474809357|4080545 said:
Did they lie to you? No. Did they omit to tell you everything they knew? Yes. And that, to me, is deception.
Depending on the dealer they might not have known either.
They also bought it as a ags graded stone.
Now a full stocking dealer might have realized it but the business model of several PS
vendors they would not have known about it.

I am of too minds about it.
On one hand it is pretty much standard industry practice on large stones, borderline stones, and higher end stones to lab shop even among different locations from the same lab.
One the other hand it is not a good thing for consumers and is not something I consider being highly respectable.
At my level it is pretty much something I have to sigh and grudgingly accept.
 

joelj

Rough_Rock
Joined
Feb 18, 2014
Messages
14
Thanks for all the replies. I guess I feel better about the fact that the GIA grading came after the AGS grading so whoever owned the stone thought they could do better by getting a second opinion from GIA (compared to trying to upgrade a GIA stone with a second report from what some consider a lesser lab).

It does bother me though that I have an AGS certificate on a diamond stamped with a GIA number, so there will always be a "story" should we ever want to sell this diamond. I know expensive cars better than expensive diamonds and a "no stories" car always does better when selling it.

I got what I was buying but I feel that other known information was withheld from me.
 

joelj

Rough_Rock
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Feb 18, 2014
Messages
14
To those in the trade, why would someone start with AGS then go to GIA? That seems backwards.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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It happens all the time. They sent it to AGS because they wanted the 000 cut grade. They sent it to GIA because they wanted the brand credibility associated with GIA. They sold it with the paperwork that they thought would most interest the buyer. No, that's not cheating although I certainly understand your annoyance and, technically, the stone has been modified since AGS inspected it (by adding the inscription), which is certainly grounds for a complaint.

Yes, it's possible they didn't know. They were probably brokering the stone on behalf of someone else and they either may not have inspected it or missed the inscription during the inspection. Obviously someone knew because someone sent it in to the labs. It doesn't really matter. The people who sold it had the opportunity and should have known no matter who the lab client was.

Have you talked to the seller about this? What did they say?
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
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4,607
I wonder if it was originally a GIA graded diamond which got damaged, repaired, graded by AGS and then they tried to get an updated grade from GIA. I do not think this really may be happened just a thought and wonder????
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
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Re denverappraisers reply, so they probably would have wanted AGS000 and GIA grade to have the same clarity and colour and then would have sold it with both reports, but since one had lower clarity sold it for the most money with the higher grades.Therefore they got GIA to inscribe it when they were intending to sell it with both certificates.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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joelj|1474811011|4080556 said:
To those in the trade, why would someone start with AGS then go to GIA? That seems backwards.
This is also standard practice.

Cut a stone to your best 000 proportions, then send it to AGS. If it comes back with zeros, call it a hit. If it misses for some reason, send it to GIA for xxx. Then you look at color/clarity/symmetry/polish/fluorescence grades. If there are differences, you use whatever paper makes it look the best and shred the other.

These days, the very best is to have both 000 and xxx. That works just fine if all of the other specs line up, which usually they do, but it's a problem if there's any sort discrepancy. Again, sell using the one that looks the best.

It was flat out a mistake to order the GIA inscription service.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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Pyramid|1474813352|4080570 said:
Re denverappraisers reply, so they probably would have wanted AGS000 and GIA grade to have the same clarity and colour and then would have sold it with both reports, but since one had lower clarity sold it for the most money with the higher grades.Therefore they got GIA to inscribe it when they were intending to sell it with both certificates.
Yes.
 

joelj

Rough_Rock
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Feb 18, 2014
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I haven't spoken with the seller yet. We just found out last night when taking the diamond to have it set. The very first thing the Chicago jeweler did was look for an inscription and they had us view it about 5 times, each time the diamond came back from out of our sight.
 

pyramid

Ideal_Rock
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Hey Hey Hey

I went to the GIA site and looked up your report number and it states on the website it is SI2 but if you download the report in the upper right of the screen you can see the actual report pdf and it states I SI1. I REALLY HOPE THIS IS CORRECT AND GOOD NEWS FOR YOU, I really do. I know what all this diamond worrying is like.

Have a look and see. On my computer you press download and then open and you see the actual GIA report and it is dated July 2016. So it is just a mistake on the GIA website and not what the actual report grade is. So where is the missing report, you need to request the original paper GIA report from the jeweller.

http://www.gia.edu/report-check-landing
 

rubybeth

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I also did what Pyramid did and downloaded the PDF version, and sure enough, the PDF of the GIA report is I, SI1. So that's the same grade as AGS. I would see if you can get a replacement of the GIA certificate, either from the vendor where you bought the stone or from GIA. Having a double certed stone is kinda fun. I have one, as well--originally graded by GIA and then later by AGS to have it correctly labeled as an Old European Cut (GIA isn't as friendly to old cuts as AGS is, and I wanted the certificate to be accurate for insurance purposes).
 

tyty333

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Pyramid|1474819144|4080589 said:
Hey Hey Hey

I went to the GIA site and looked up your report number and it states on the website it is SI2 but if you download the report in the upper right of the screen you can see the actual report pdf and it states I SI1. I REALLY HOPE THIS IS CORRECT AND GOOD NEWS FOR YOU, I really do. I know what all this diamond worrying is like.

Have a look and see. On my computer you press download and then open and you see the actual GIA report and it is dated July 2016. So it is just a mistake on the GIA website and not what the actual report grade is. So where is the missing report, you need to request the original paper GIA report from the jeweller.

http://www.gia.edu/report-check-landing
Yep...I just did it and I see SI1 also. Good (Hopefully positive) catch Pyramid!
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
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That's a great catch Pyramid.

Still call the seller. They should call GIA and work out the problem on the website, and you should probably have the original of the GIA document since it's marked on the stone itself.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Fascinating.

I understand the disappointment, but personally I have no problem with a seller sending a stone to both reputable labs and shredding the report that makes the diamond worth less.
IMO this is not dishonest; it's just is business.
Selling a diamond as a G VS1 per EGL is a whole different thing (fraud IMO).

But, yes telling GIA to engrave it was a boo boo. :oops:

Weight is absolute, but color and clarity are not.
Unlike carat weight, these grades are judgements about where a diamond should be placed within ranges.

Next, nature does not place each diamond in the middle of a clarity or color range.
Diamonds come in a continuum, so some will fall right at the border of two grades ... and those borders are not absolute lines, they are judgement calls agreed to by humans.

I'll bet if you found such a borderline diamond and sent it to the same lab 100 times (and the lab was somehow not aware it was grading the same diamond) it would not come back with the same grade 100 times.
Now, send it to two labs, even reputable ones, and you'll likely see variation again.

If I were you and decided to keep the stone I'd get the vendor to polish off the GIA inscription.
Since the weight might go down 0.002 ct ;-) they should get a new AGS report, on their dime.
Then if you sell it some day you don't have this whole awkward story to explain.
 

kmarla

Brilliant_Rock
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tyty333|1474822640|4080602 said:
Pyramid|1474819144|4080589 said:
Hey Hey Hey

I went to the GIA site and looked up your report number and it states on the website it is SI2 but if you download the report in the upper right of the screen you can see the actual report pdf and it states I SI1. I REALLY HOPE THIS IS CORRECT AND GOOD NEWS FOR YOU, I really do. I know what all this diamond worrying is like.

Have a look and see. On my computer you press download and then open and you see the actual GIA report and it is dated July 2016. So it is just a mistake on the GIA website and not what the actual report grade is. So where is the missing report, you need to request the original paper GIA report from the jeweller.

http://www.gia.edu/report-check-landing
Yep...I just did it and I see SI1 also. Good (Hopefully positive) catch Pyramid!
I just checked GIA and the report says I SI2 for me. I checked the inscription # twice to be sure. I'm confused???
Oops, never mind. I see the PDF version now. My bad.
 
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