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Diamond E vs. F? Is that a big differences?

lexislexis

Rough_Rock
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Jun 7, 2011
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17
So i was always aiming for an E color round diamond, and as the price keep increasing lately. I might have to make a decision that lowering from E to F. My friend's uncle is in the diamond business and keep telling she and me that F color have a very noticeable yellowish color to E color even by naked eye.

I haven't see one in person as i checked the price on BN and i'm sure the one i want isn't affordable to me right now. So i don't bother to ask my friend's uncle for help. And my friend claim that too. She got a E color ring and kept saying how the F color look awful to the E color which are on her friend's finger. Personally i didn't see it, so i really have no idea is it true. I know some people will have "color sensitive" but for naked eye, does it make that a big differences?

I don't plan to trade-in or sell it in the future, so i don't wanna make myself regret it later.

Thank you,
Lexis
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
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Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,364
Ummmm.... I don't want to be rude that that is a load of balony you are getting from your friend and her uncle. Diamond color grades are actually very close to one another. I would bet in a blind test that 99% of the population could NOT tell the difference between an E and an F.

There are some cultures that hold a very high premium on color. To people who hold those cultural beliefs, *knowing* a stone is an F color makes it yucky and yellow to them. It is a mind thing. I do not think it is a physical property of the diamond itself, to say that an F color stone is noticably yellow compared to an E color stone.

To really see a difference reliably -- without knowing the color grade in advance - -I wager you need at least 2 color grades, more in some cases depending on the person's perception.

Decide for yourself how you feel about color. For me, G is really gorgeous, much more attractive than E/F color. I own a J and love it.

But splitting hairs about E versus F is just silly IMO, unless one acknowledges that it is a personal/cultural preference and not about true visual perception.

ETA: cut quality is so much more important anyways. Did your freind and her uncle talk about that at all ;))
 

Circe

Ideal_Rock
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8,087
Ditto Dreamer - I took the GIA diamond grading course, and even the pro's, a) sometimes cannot tell the difference between the two without a master set, and, b) can disagree about the grading with a master set!
 

lexislexis

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
17
Dreamer_D|1307466527|2939924 said:
Ummmm.... I don't want to be rude that that is a load of balony you are getting from your friend and her uncle. Diamond color grades are actually very close to one another. I would bet in a blind test that 99% of the population could NOT tell the difference between an E and an F.

There are some cultures that hold a very high premium on color. To people who hold those cultural beliefs, *knowing* a stone is an F color makes it yucky and yellow to them. It is a mind thing. I do not think it is a physical property of the diamond itself, to say that an F color stone is noticably yellow compared to an E color stone.

To really see a difference reliably -- without knowing the color grade in advance - -I wager you need at least 2 color grades, more in some cases depending on the person's perception.

Decide for yourself how you feel about color. For me, G is really gorgeous, much more attractive than E/F color. I own a J and love it.

But splitting hairs about E versus F is just silly IMO, unless one acknowledges that it is a personal/cultural preference and not about true visual perception.

ETA: cut quality is so much more important anyways. Did your freind and her uncle talk about that at all ;))
Thank you D!
I researched a lot on color and mostly what i saw is D-F is consider a colorless diamond and F definitely offer a best value in the colorless group. So i was so shocked to hear what they said.

And i agree with what you said some cultures did hold very high on premium color. We are asian, so i definitely "class" do make a different on people. And i feel bad about how she kept bitching about her friend's F color. And i know if i purchase from her uncle she will definitely bitch around me having buy a larger stone than "quality" i mean color in this case.

I haven't go into the brick and mortar store yet because they all need appointment to take a look of the diamonds plus i'm so scare they will be really pushy.

And no, they didn't explain anything else, kept on emphasizing the color. But i know what i want for the other aspect, 3 EXs.

And i have one more question, the clarity question, if i want a stone around 1.5c, either E or F color, will VS1 looks really bad? I think my friend got a VVS2/1 and she is absolutely "advertising" me do not go below the VVS category.

She is absolutely bias plus her uncle, so i don't wanna let them brain-wash me.

Thank you again.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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28,942
lexislexis|1307466062|2939917 said:
So i was always aiming for an E color round diamond, and as the price keep increasing lately. I might have to make a decision that lowering from E to F. My friend's uncle is in the diamond business and keep telling she and me that F color have a very noticeable yellowish color to E color even by naked eye.

I haven't see one in person as i checked the price on BN and i'm sure the one i want isn't affordable to me right now. So i don't bother to ask my friend's uncle for help. And my friend claim that too. She got a E color ring and kept saying how the F color look awful to the E color which are on her friend's finger. Personally i didn't see it, so i really have no idea is it true. I know some people will have "color sensitive" but for naked eye, does it make that a big differences?

I don't plan to trade-in or sell it in the future, so i don't wanna make myself regret it later.

Thank you,
Lexis
If your friends uncle sells diamonds it's not that he sees yellow in an F.
It's that he sees more GREEN (for himself) in an E. :naughty: :naughty: :naughty:
 

lexislexis

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
17
Circe|1307467842|2939931 said:
Ditto Dreamer - I took the GIA diamond grading course, and even the pro's, a) sometimes cannot tell the difference between the two without a master set, and, b) can disagree about the grading with a master set!
Thank you.
So now i'm only concern about the clarity problem.
I saw there's flaw on the microscope report like show on BN, and i wonder how much different will it make?
if i'm choosing F color, triple Ex, is VS2/1 good enough? How will it reflect the brightness and whiteness to the stone when we see it naked eyes?
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
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Messages
28,942
lexislexis|1307468219|2939938 said:
Circe|1307467842|2939931 said:
Ditto Dreamer - I took the GIA diamond grading course, and even the pro's, a) sometimes cannot tell the difference between the two without a master set, and, b) can disagree about the grading with a master set!
Thank you.
So now i'm only concern about the clarity problem.
I saw there's flaw on the microscope report like show on BN, and i wonder how much different will it make?
if i'm choosing F color, triple Ex, is VS2/1 good enough? How will it reflect the brightness and whiteness to the stone when we see it naked eyes?
VS stones are eye clean.
Inclusions will not affect how bright or white it looks.

That is dermined by the CUT, or the proportions.

A dimaond is a little box of mirrors and windows.
All the facets have to be positioned just right to send light back up to your eye instead of letting it "leak" out the bottom or the side.

Read the PS tutorials on Cut.
Cut is a ZILLION times more important to a diamond's beauty than clarity or color.
 

lexislexis

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
17
kenny|1307468198|2939937 said:
If your friends uncle sells diamonds it's not that he sees yellow in an F.
It's that he sees more GREEN (for himself) in an E. :naughty: :naughty: :naughty:
Haha. I do think he wants to sell the "top-notch" to me. I just want my Fiancée's money to be best-used. Not to fund the greedy people like that, ours money is hard-earned.

And now i'm sure it is just a "grade" talking .... what it appears to people is the E is much more superior than a F.
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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lexislexis|1307468519|2939943 said:
kenny|1307468198|2939937 said:
If your friends uncle sells diamonds it's not that he sees yellow in an F.
It's that he sees more GREEN (for himself) in an E. :naughty: :naughty: :naughty:
Haha. I do think he wants to sell the "top-notch" to me. I just want my Fiancée's money to be best-used. Not to fund the greedy people like that, ours money is hard-earned.

And now i'm sure it is just a "grade" talking .... what it appears to people is the E is much more superior than a F.
There IS a difference between and E and and an F.
The difference is astonishingly slight.
To see it you will probably have to look at them both up side down, loose, next to a white background under very white lighting.
For 99% of us it is MUCH harder if not impossible to see the difference once the diamonds are set.

You need to get out and see the differences in colors and clarities for yourself, and how much extra you have to pay for the E or higher clarities.
After seeing for yourself you may, or may not, be one of the people who decide the extra cost is worth it.
People vary.

Just be sure to decide for yourself AFTER seeing the differences.

Oh, and please DON"T buy from a relative or friend; we have heard of so many people here on PS getting ripped off when they do that.
 

nfowife

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Mar 15, 2011
Messages
544
don't buy from this friend's uncle. Buy what you want and like. Tell your friends it's an E/VVS2. They'll never know if you have an F/VS2.
Laugh all the way to the bank.
Promise.
 

lexislexis

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
17
kenny|1307468870|2939947 said:
There IS a difference between and E and and an F.
The difference is astonishingly slight.

You need to get out and see the differences in colors and clarities for yourself, and how much extra you have to pay for the E or higher clarities.
After seeing for yourself you may be one of the people who decide the extra money is worth it to you.
People vary.

Just be sure to decide for yourself AFTER seeing the differences.
Thank you, i will definitely see it before we are buying anything.
I just want to ask for more opinions before i'm going into his shop since he has these strong head on color grade.
For cut, i'm sure i want the best it offered. I will do more research on the proportional things before he show me anything.
I don't want him to stuff "his idea" into my mind. overall i'm still a novice.

Thanks for the help Kenny.
 

lexislexis

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
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nfowife|1307469086|2939951 said:
don't buy from this friend's uncle. Buy what you want and like. Tell your friends it's an E/VVS2. They'll never know if you have an F/VS2.
Laugh all the way to the bank.
Promise.
My friend keep saying her uncle will give us a good price, well i don't know how good it will be. Just the other friend of mine also did brought from him, and say he is cheaper. So i'm tempted.

I'm sure i will be bitched about the color grade rest of the life if i brought from her uncle ... because mine are a grade below her :sick:
 

nfowife

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
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Messages
544
I would venture a guess you will be able to do better online....even with his "deal".
 

kenny

Super_Ideal_Rock
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If you want to find a diamond with good cut the round is the easiest of all shapes.
Here's how to do it.
Step one is to ignore your friends uncle.
Next . . .

Enter these 4 numbers from the diamond's lab report into the Holloway Cut Advisor, HCA.
https://www.pricescope.com/tools/hca

Depth %
Table %
Crown angle in degrees
Pavilion angle in degrees

Reject stones that score over 2.0
Get Idealscope pics for stones that scored under 2.0.

https://www.pricescope.com/tools/ideal-scope

Compare Idealscope pics to this reference chart:

http://www.ideal-scope.com/1.using_reference_chart.asp

Next is price.
Enter your specs into PS search engine . . .

https://www.pricescope.com/diamond-search-results/

I'm not saying you have to buy from a PS vendor, just be aware of the quality, price and policies they offer.
After learning all this your friend's uncle will hate you because you will get the best-cut diamond possible at the lowest price possible from a vendor with the best policies around.

Only consider AGS or GIA graded stones.
Other labs lie.
A GIA G VS2 may get E VVS2 from one of the other labs and this makes comparing prices futile.
IOW, No EGL and IGI stones are NOT cheaper and GIA / AGS stones are not more expensive.
 

Circe

Ideal_Rock
Trade
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Messages
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I'd say it would be worth paying a little more elsewhere, just to maintain some privacy ....
 

Black Jade

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Aug 21, 2008
Messages
1,242
Is he selling you a GIA or AGS graded diamond?
Other labs grade softer so sometimes people end up with an "EGL" F that would would be a GIA G or even H. The uncle may not actually even be selling a real E.
Diamonds are usually classed with D-E-F in one category, as colorless diamonds and then G starts the 'near-colorless'. But if you see an F next to an E, especially set, and and F next to a G, you won't be able to tell the difference in either case. It's when you see an E next to a G that some people (not all) can tell a difference, and then only by looking at the side of a set stone. Adn the G may well be the prettiest stone--there are other factors than color. (I speak as someone who owns an F and likes diamonds that are very white).

As for VS1 vs. VVS2--do your relatives carry loupes around? You won't see anything in either stone without one.
 

lexislexis

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
17
kenny|1307470257|2939975 said:
If you want to find a diamond with good cut the round is the easiest of all shapes.
Here's how to do it.
Step one is to ignore your friends uncle.
Next . . .

......

Only consider AGS or GIA graded stones.
Other labs lie.
A GIA G VS2 may get E VVS2 from one of the other labs and this makes comparing prices futile.
IOW, No EGL and IGI stones are NOT cheaper and GIA / AGS stones are not more expensive.
Yes i'm well aware only consider AGS/GIA
Kenny thanks for all the informations, appreciated.
 

lexislexis

Rough_Rock
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Jun 7, 2011
Messages
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Circe|1307470447|2939978 said:
I'd say it would be worth paying a little more elsewhere, just to maintain some privacy ....
This is what my Fiancée said, buy somewhere else.
But his "deal" seems really tempted.
Well for now, i will keep doing research and will compare what he is selling just for my own protection.
 

lexislexis

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 7, 2011
Messages
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Black Jade|1307470488|2939980 said:
Is he selling you a GIA or AGS graded diamond?
.....
As for VS1 vs. VVS2--do your relatives carry loupes around? You won't see anything in either stone without one.
Yes he sold GIA/AGS graded diamond.

Haha. Well say. I guess i really mind what she and her uncle think about what i am getting ;-)
 

rubybeth

Ideal_Rock
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Nov 12, 2007
Messages
2,567
Make sure you are really getting a 'deal' and compare the specs of any stone you find with some from PS vendors. I would say maybe shop around at the uncle's store, but don't commit to buying anything there. You can just say you are 'researching' and looking at your options.
 

dreamer_dachsie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Dec 16, 2007
Messages
24,364
I really doubt you will get a deal from the friend's uncle. Such purchases rarely work out from what we hear on PS ;)) But go see what he can show you. Then come here and post the information from the certs. And research your alternatives. Then make up your own mind.

Clarity is another cutlural "purity" thing. Most VS2 are totally eye clean. VS1 will always be eye clean (maybe a one in a million exception). There is no effect of clarity on optics/brightness/appearance unless you are talking about certain rare Si2 stones.

I would buy an F/VS2 if you want a really white looking stone that is totally clean to the eye but maximizes your budget. And then keep the specs to yourself, it is no one else's business.

Unless you think these things will matter to your future fiance and her family or your own family. If purity matters to YOU then by all means buy a D VVS.
 

kdn2684

Rough_Rock
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May 3, 2011
Messages
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Here's a good thread that ranks the 4C's in terms of importance.
[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/any-advice-on-how-to-spend-10k.161246/#post-2931840#p2931840']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/any-advice-on-how-to-spend-10k.161246/#post-2931840#p2931840[/URL]

I've compared my F colored that i bought for my gf to my sister's D color diamond. There's a difference, but it was very very very small. My F color still looks very very very white. The only hint of yellow that you might notice with an F color is if you look at it from the sides. However, face up, it looks white.

The only reason to get a high clarity( VVS+) or high color (D) is for cultural preference. However, like many has said in this thread, Cut is by far the MOST important as it determines how bright a diamond is. TO me to get the most bang for your buck, get an Ideal Cut, VS2 clarity Diamond. Clarity is the least important to me as long as it's eye clean. If it's eye clean, then there's virutally no difference in terms of performance/brightness between a VS2 for a IF. Why pay more for Clarity when you can't see it anyways. At least with Color you can tell the difference between a D and G, but clarity you can't tell the difference between a IF and a VS unless you use a loop.
 

lexislexis

Rough_Rock
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Jun 7, 2011
Messages
17
Thanks for all the replies and clear out my misconception.
I do admit that i wanna get everything in a higher grade just to meet the other's "standard".
And now i think i need to look into other factors more than just to please others.

Thank you again.
 

Sparkly_Not_Gaudy

Rough_Rock
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Apr 12, 2011
Messages
80
I have been told by many graduate gemologists that even to the trained eye, it is nearly impossible to discern between an E and an F. If it is F you should not have any yellow at all. At least not by GIA standards.

I have a few Ds and can tell next to my F that they are colorless, but I also wonder how much of that is cut, too.
 

Gypsy

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Messages
40,198
Okay so... to paraphrase one of our diamond experts on here...

If you put 10 D, E, and F diamonds (GIA graded) in a hat and asked a room full of trade members (all levels) to CORRECTLY identify the color grade of each of the in the lot. No one would take that bet. That's how small the difference is.

Same if you asked them to differentiate between VVS grades and in some instances even VVS and VS1.

But... if you put ten diamonds in there... some with ideal cuts, and some with traditional cuts, and others with something in between-- even the NON-EXPERTS -- even YOU would be able to differentiate between the ideal cuts and the traditional cuts... and with a couple of easy tools (a Hearts and Arrows viewer or an ASET) and less than three minutes of instruction YOU, diamond novice, might be able to even pick out the difference between an ideal and a stone that is just shy of an ideal cut.

That's how OBVIOUS cut is. Forget about Color and Clarity. Pick a range of colors (G-I) and a decide on your definition of eyeclean (no visible inclusions from ANY angle at all, from 8 inches away from the diamond, for example), and focus on buying the best CUT that you can.
 

AmeliaG

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I wouldn't say forget about color and clarity but I can't see a difference between E and F and I haven't heard of anyone who can. Some people can see a difference between D and F however, but they are VERY color sensitive.
 

dreamer_dachsie

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Messages
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AmeliaG|1307480530|2940102 said:
I wouldn't say forget about color and clarity but I can't see a difference between E and F and I haven't heard of anyone who can. Some people can see a difference between D and F however, but they are VERY color sensitive.
I wager it is not a blind comparison, for the people who say they can tell.
 

minmin001

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you wouldn't really be able to tell the difference with naked eyes like the rest of them said =)
 

OCgirl

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Wow how come I didn't see this thread any sooner.

Is your friend MY friend? I was very tempted to start a thread regarding a very similar issue I encountered a few weeks ago. One of my really good friends own a 1.1 ct E VVS2 brand name engagement ring (we are Asians and her knowledge of diamonds is limited) and she found out I got a bigger stone but with G SI1 specs for less than half of the price she paid for. She started talking as if my diamond is super low quality. I was shocked and upset. She said, "I wouldn't even go below F for a pendant, let alone an engagement ring." Nowhere in our conversation did cut quality come up. I tried to tell her that as long as a diamond is well cut (mine is an AGS000), the color difference between an E and a G is ridiculously small. I saw a GIA very good cut E color diamond that looks like an H. But of course none of those mattered. I decided to drop the topic because it's pointless to talk to people who don't want to spend the time to do their research. They just want to blindly follow what others are doing and brag about the high color and clarity (and maybe how expensive it is to pay for the "high quality) when you can't see ANY difference with your naked eyes.

Funny thing is I took her to my local jeweler and we compared her ring to an ideal cut 1.0 ct F VS2 stone, she couldn't tell the difference. But somehow that still didn't change her view on things.

I think bottomline is you should go for what YOU want, not what others want. It is your engagement ring. I am glad I did my research and found a beautiful stone. I am glad you are doing yours, too =)
 

AmeliaG

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lexislexis|1307468026|2939934 said:
Dreamer_D|1307466527|2939924 said:
And i have one more question, the clarity question, if i want a stone around 1.5c, either E or F color, will VS1 looks really bad? I think my friend got a VVS2/1 and she is absolutely "advertising" me do not go below the VVS category.
Sorry, didn't see your other question. That should teach me to jump to the end of the thread!

I seriously doubt you'd see an inclusion in a VS1 in a 1.5 carat diamond even if its under the table. Its a great grade if you don't want to check whether the diamond is eyeclean.
 
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