Conned on ebay. I quit!

[Lisa Loves Shiny]

Now here are the points of specific interest
Original flaw picture with arrows drawn in..this is the picture taken by Hugger after she recieved the stone back


Here is the ebay picture with arrows drawn to show where the software identified points of interest almost identical to the picture taken afterwards


You can see the arrows point out flaws detected by the computer from a pre-kelpie shot and a post kelpie shot.

Here is one where I layered both the pictures on top of each other...as you can see both areas pointed out by the arrows match up almost perfectly especially the top one. The bottom one does as well but it also happens to trend in the exact same direction...what are the chances that two completely different photos taken at two different times both before and after AGL and kelpie would show roughly the same type of mark?

In the layed pic you must account for slight differences in angle and distance but you can clearly see the same type of mark detected by the software.

My conclusion is the flaw was already there or was made larger by mis-handling and/or shipping. The flaw was there to begin with thats for sure...exactly how big and/or noticeable....well....

Impressive work!

 

[gongli]

sorry to hear about this

 

[minmin001]

Dear Kelpie,

I know you are upset. If you want your money back, please file the claim with the post office/AGL. It will take 4-6 weeks and you will receive the money from the post office. Your only purpose now should be to get your money back. It has become too nasty now, and you should not continue with this discourse.

This has happened to me. I got my money from the post office and was happy and the vendor was happy. Please, as others on this forum have warned. You will not get a pariba tourmaline for 750.00.

Sleep well.

Annette

I just have a question of after she file the claim who will get the money? why does it take 4-6 weeks for her to get the money and why from post office? Maybe the next thing is the post will lose the money you send her....

 

[baby nurse]

I wanted to offer some words of support, kelpie. I'm sorry you're going through this and I hope it gets resolved quickly.

Really unbelievable .

 

[Aoife]

I'm so sorry , Kelpie. This is just unfathomable to me. I hope you get a fair resolution--I was about to add "quickly," but it just doesn't look good right now. I hope I'm wrong.

 

[MissStepcut]

I wonder if AGS just takes fewer shipping precautions with items worth less than $50?

Even if Kelpie/AGS didn't have the item properly insured, I agree that Kelpie could only ever be liable for the stone's actual value and that the vast majority of her purchase price should have been refunded a long time ago. Insurance shouldn't pay more than the stone was worth, and trying to get them to pay the purchase price sounds like insurance fraud to me. It's basically making USPS the insurer of the seller's misrepresentation instead of the insurer against shipping risk. (I'll also add that this isn't legal advice.)

 

[VapidLapid]

I hate this kind of thread.
This kind of situation is bad enough on its own without all of us escalating the wrongs with speculation and software that seeks anomalies in fourth generation jpg and pricescope compressed files. RH ought to refund Kelpie in full and immediately. It should then be a simple matter for her and kelpie to each contact agl for the insurance number. Since the stone was in agl's custody and they were shipping it as kelpie's agent and certainly would not have sent the stone uninsured and so also certainly would have included the shipping and insurance charges that they fronted in their bill. There must be a record of that. We all know how simple it is to buy insurance at usps, and it is printed and trackable right on the receipt. Rock Huggers insurance claim has no bearing on Kelpie's claim. The bill of sale between rock hugger and kelpie should be sufficient to establish the legitimacy of the insured value. I know this is not the first time a PS member has sold on that site and behaved dishonorably leaving no recourse but to make claims with paypal and credit card companies, but it is no less disappointing.

 

[MissStepcut]

VL, I have to wonder, as I mentioned above, if insurance, even if it exists, would cover the purchase price. When I've dealt with USPS insurance in the past, they warned me to document the items I was insuring and their value.

 

[Arkteia]

Please accept my support, kelpie. If I were in your shoes, I'd be very angry, and you behave graciously and even offer to remove this thread after you get your fair reimbursement for misrepresented goods. Sometimes vendors put too much trust in their dealers, we all understand it, but promptly refunding money would have saved RockHugger from many problems here.

 

[Barrett]

oh but Vapid these are the best threads..I love contoversial threads*..gets the whole gang together again..I have posted more in the last day than I have in the last year
*former king of controversial threads from back in the day(what was the name of that old moderator..ahhh..Ali was it?)

 

[VapidLapid]

oh but Vapid these are the best threads..I love contoversial threads*..gets the whole gang together again..I have posted more in the last day than I have in the last year
*former king of controversial threads from back in the day(what was the name of that old moderator..ahhh..Ali was it?)

I know it's fun, (NSC was a gas!) and I was tempted myself to speculate more, but I think it is just unfair to kelpie and rh too, for us to amplify the wrongs that have been done.

 

[Barrett]

very true, Vap..no ones issues or dirty laundry should be aired in public. Vapid always coming through with a voice of reason.

 

[kelpie]

Amethystguy, you are a super slueth! Thank you so much for your thorough investigation!

 

[y2kitty]

I'm sorry kelpie, I hope you get your money back.

 

[decodelighted]

I am NAUSEATED at the attempt to get some insurance company to pay $838 in reimbursement for what actually a $50 stone!!!!!!!! RIP OFF!!!!!!!!!!! It's not THEIR problem the stone was fake! (And probably not even their problem it was *damaged*). If the stone wasn't what it was claimed to be == thats something RockHugger needs to take up with her SUPPLIER. And she has both the stone and the paperwork proving it wasn't what it was purported to be IN HER HANDS CURRENTLY. Any postal damage is a SIDE ISSUE.

Tough luck, Rock Hugger. Cost of doing business. Which hopefully there won't be much more of based on this transaction's current course.

 

[LD]

Nice software Amguy - does it find buried treasure too?

Kelpie - any news?

 

[decodelighted]

VL, I have to wonder, as I mentioned above, if insurance, even if it exists, would cover the purchase price. When I've dealt with USPS insurance in the past, they warned me to document the items I was insuring and their value.

Wouldn't it, in fact, BE ILLEGAL to insure something for more than it's worth??????????

 

[kelpie]

I want to extend a huge thank you for your moral support, tips, and detective work.

Shout out to: decodelighted, LovingDiamonds, herekittykitty, amethystguy, VapidLapid, crasru, MissStepcut, Aoife, baby nurse, minmin001, gongli, LisaRN, ooo~Shiney!, Deia, smitcompton, brandy_z28, minousbijoux, Sarahbear621, Lovinggems, lavatea, IndyLady, TL, Harriet, Chrono, Kismet, kenny, ForteKitty, JewelFreak, tsavvy, Pandora, D&T and anyone else who posted helpfully or just commiserated that I missed.

Despite a bad egg, I'm truly glad to "know" you and I'm grateful for the help and support. I hope I can share some positive news soon.

 

[Arkteia]

question to Amethystguy. This is a tourmaline, not a sapphire or a ruby. Tourmalines may have tiny fractures, which is not anything unusual. Could there have been a tiny fracture, not noticeable with a naked eye, which just enlarged without any significant external impact? That it is, technically, no one's fault? We had a relatively recent post, and I do not remember whose post it was, about a tourmaline chipping off, and the poster had no idea how it had happened - obviously she did not hit the ring against anything, nor dropped it. The inner stresses in tourmalines make these stones easily fractured. So in this case, no one is liable, or rather, the stone itself is liable?
Which does not negate the fact that the stone was misrepresented, just an attempt to explain the nature of this fracture. The computer may show a fracture, it would not tell us the size of it.

 

[MissStepcut]

VL, I have to wonder, as I mentioned above, if insurance, even if it exists, would cover the purchase price. When I've dealt with USPS insurance in the past, they warned me to document the items I was insuring and their value.

Wouldn't it, in fact, BE ILLEGAL to insure something for more than it's worth??????????

My law student self feels a little uncomfortable commenting, but I think it would be wrong to make a CLAIM that should be paid, not taking out the policy. Though I don't know why AGS or the sender would take out an $800 policy on something they know, at that point, is worth $50. Seems obvious to me that no one would over-insure at that point.

 

[VapidLapid]

I dont know about the legals. I believe from experience and observation that insurance companies will sell you anything you want, then if it becomes time to make a claim on that policy, they pay out what they want. They research the sale history of the item and apply an incomprehensible scale to adjust your compensation. Then they try to negotiate a settlement anyway, so the figure you have an item insured for is certainly the maximum. Other factors might include what purpose you had the item insured for; loss, replacement value, full value, damage ..I had an art work rented out to an HBO production for their set decoration which was damaged by the stagehands, and was not restorable. Our terms were that they insured it for its full value nail to nail. They had to pay me the full retail value. They had an art advisory consultant research my sales prices and auction prices and she contacted galleries that have sold my work. She told them the claimed value was real and they should pay me the $10k. Still they tried to negotiate, but I was inflexible. I did get the full amount. In the case of RH's stone, the more I think about it the more it seems to me that since the sale was contingent on the lab report confirming it as cuprian, and that did not happen, that the sale was never completed. So even though agl/kelpie may have insured the shipment, the usps insure-er could, and might be right to say that the stone was out on approval from the vendor and thus is rightly covered by the vendor's business insurance as it would be up til the sale is completed. That since the sale was not completed the vendor's business insurance coverage on this stone was always in place and the first in line for liability. I imagine that IF RH;s insurance covers her they will pay no more than what she paid wholesale for the stone, because that is all she is out. But again I have to say that all the talk about insurance and the (un)ethics of any compensation to RH for such claims still has no bearing whatsoever on RH's obligation to return Kelpie's money in full. and toot sweet.

 

[Barrett]

Yes, Cras...it could have been nobody's fault in regards to the flaw..not AGL's, not Huggers, and not Kelpie. I would be willing to wager it was the stones fault like you said, Cras, with a temperature change or jolt causing a pre-existing fracture to expand. Happens all the time. I think TL knows a good bit on thermal and mechanical shock in regards to tourmaline..maybe she can add something. I remember when I was cutting stones my cutter buddies would always say tourmaline was finicky when cutting but I don't recall if it was in regards to pressure or heat. The same would be true to a lesser extent off the dop. The stone, as hugger said, was loose and in a box with some baggies..which would help cause a stone to crack by bouncing off the box walls. Whats weird is...I woudn't expect AGL to package something like that. It's almost as if someone, or something, had rifled through it.

I think the Gem Gremlins are afoot


P.S. Yes I know I don't have a life
..I could have spent the five hours I was mucking around with that stone and that software and been volunteering with the homeless, helping out at the nursing home, mowing the lawn, etc....but...nooooo...I had to waste my time doing something that will soon fall into the annals of past post on pricescope...sigh... well maybe it will come in handy again and as sherlock holmes once said:

"Elementary," said he. "It is one of those instances where the reasoner can produce an effect which seems remarkable to his neighbour, because the latter has missed the one little point which is the basis of the deduction. The same may be said, my dear fellow, for the effect of some of these little sketches of yours, which is entirely meretricious, depending as it does upon your retaining in your own hands some factors in the problem which are never imparted to the reader. "

 

[MissStepcut]

VL, I don't think the insurance company would be much persuaded even if a sale had gone through, because a recent AGS report had just been concluded, which would likely provide excellent information for how to value the stone at the time it was entrusted to the carrier. If I pay you $1 million for your 10 year old Camry and I total it on my way out of your driveway, the insurance company isn't going to reimburse me my $1 million.

 

[Haywood74]

VL, I have to wonder, as I mentioned above, if insurance, even if it exists, would cover the purchase price. When I've dealt with USPS insurance in the past, they warned me to document the items I was insuring and their value.

Wouldn't it, in fact, BE ILLEGAL to insure something for more than it's worth??????????

My law student self feels a little uncomfortable commenting, but I think it would be wrong to make a CLAIM that should be paid, not taking out the policy. Though I don't know why AGS or the sender would take out an $800 policy on something they know, at that point, is worth $50. Seems obvious to me that no one would over-insure at that point.

My humble 2 cents worth is that this a reasonably obvious attempt at postal insurance fraud. Insuring an item that turns out to have dramatically less value for an inflated declared value and then it turns up damaged? Sounds SUPER convenient to me. This whole thing stinks to high heaven in my opinion and I think some people at the post office would love to hear about how someone is potentially ripping them off through fraud.

I've never had any direct dealing with them, but I have been told that Postal Inspectors are very thorough at doing their jobs. Perhaps contacting the "seller" here with a simple "I am turning this over to the United States Postal Inspection Service for potential insurance fraud" would do the trick on getting a speedy refund to you. Ripping off USPS would not be a very smart thing to do.

 

[MrsTulip]

kelpie - While your credit card company and Paypal will be better equipped to help recoup your money, the US has the Internet Crime Complaint Center (www.ic3.gov). They are a division of the FBI where you can file a complaint of your situation, but they seem to be more focused on large-scale scams.

You may also try http://www.econsumer.gov/
From their site -
"econsumer.gov is an initiative of the International Consumer Protection and Enforcement Network (ICPEN). ICPEN is a network of governmental organizations involved in the enforcement of fair trade practice laws and other consumer protection activities."

Hope you get your resolution soon.

 

[kelpie]

Wow, Amethystguy, I can actually plainly see the "crack" in RH's original pic with added gremlin. Thank you so much for wasting precious hours of your life you'll never get back to help me. Thank you also Haywood and MrsTulip for the advice which I'll follow up on. Obviously I'm not willing to commit postal fraud on Rockhugger's behalf!

 

[LD]

I want to add something that may/may not be relevant.

From her posts as Rockhugger, I'm pretty sure that RH is a mum (and a fairly young mum). I believe that she started her business to eke out a living and support her family which is credible. In my opinion (and based on her posts) she tried to learn too much, too fast and suffered from the "I know better than you" syndrome - credible she wanted to learn of course but those of us who have been around gems for longer know the risks of this.

I would doubt she's a registered business - I could be wrong. In this day and age anybody can set up a business but how they do it and whether it's within the boundaries of paying tax on profits etc is another matter. The internet makes it easy to sell and make people think you are something you're not.

This may be a case of NOT having the funds to pay back and buying time by this ridiculous who makes an insurance claim. Is that right/ethical? No. Truth is far better and even if the truth hurts and we sometimes don't like it, I would hope if RH contemplates she'll realise that if you're in business then you must stand by your words and have a float to cover these circumstances. It's a hard lesson to learn and Kelpie is suffering. I wonder if RH sat back and thought about it how she would feel if somebody missold to her and then wouldn't give the money back?

At the end of the day she's missold a stone (knowingly or not). She should suck it up and pay back Kelpie, even if that means in 2 or 3 instalments. Kelpie won't be happy but at least she wouldn't be out of pocket. RH should then claim her original money back from the person who sold her the stone and NOT make it worse by attempting to defraud an insurance company. She's only out of pocket the amount SHE paid for the stone, not what Kelpie bought it for. The damage to the stone is immaterial actually. From my posts of comparing before/after photos and then the wonderful detective work by Amguy, it's clear the stone was probably flawed. These things happen and could have happened when it was sent to Kelpie on approval and then the claim on insurance would have been RH's to make. There's no way to tell and it doesn't matter - it's immaterial.

Anyway, whatever happens, even if the money is paid back, I do believe that this thread should remain because doing business with RH (certainly at the moment) is a risk and if people are going to be buying gems from her they need to be aware.

I do hope there's a swift resolution.

 

[missy]

Kelpie, I am sorry you are dealing with this and I hope you get your money back soon.

 

[ooo~Shiney!]

Thanks LD, I was going to say the same, only you are MUCH more eloquent than I

I've always believed the money (kelpie's) is long gone.
And i believe that is essentially the "real" reason that it isn't being paid back by RH.
If that is true, then at this point, a graceful apology and a "chance" to make good on the refund, which kelpie deserves, is what RH needs to do.

I hadn't thought that the stone was actually "sold" "on approval" of its being proven cu containing, but that's an excellent point !!!!

Smooth work, amguy !!!!
(btw, I saved that little Gremlin picture, too cute !!!! )

 

[Aoife]

This may be a case of NOT having the funds to pay back and buying time by this ridiculous who makes an insurance claim.

This is what I have suspected, too. I hadn't wanted to mention it, because, in my mind, this is a very serious accusation, but I'm afraid that at this point it's hard to draw any other conclusion. I've had something like this happen to me on a couple of transactions, and it is so unethical. The sale is not completed until the conditions of the sale are met, so therefore the vendor is using money that technically does not yet belong to her. It may not be stealing in the strictest sense, but if the money isn't returned to Kelpie in very short order, it becomes hard to tell the difference.