Comparison of my Canera and Diamonds by Lauren settings

[Dreamer_D]

HOT I don't think the prongs need thinning per se, what makes them look "bulky" is the way the ends are finished IMO, being left rounded versus being bent over like the prongs BGD did on the rest of the ring. ETA: If BGD had set your stone (and i totally get why you had it done locally) the prongs would have blended in style with the others and I doubt it would have compromised the integrity of the ring.

 

[Laila619]

HOT I don't think the prongs need thinning per se, what makes them look "bulky" is the way the ends are finished IMO, being left rounded versus being bent over like the prongs BGD did on the rest of the ring. ETA: If BGD had set your stone (and i totally get why you had it done locally) the prongs would have blended in style with the others and I doubt it would have compromised the integrity of the ring.

Yes. Outside of the PS vendors, it seems like most jewelry stores don't know how to do the claw prongs (or aren't comfortable with them)--they leave them sort of rounded.

 

[rosetta]

HOT I don't think the prongs need thinning per se, what makes them look "bulky" is the way the ends are finished IMO, being left rounded versus being bent over like the prongs BGD did on the rest of the ring. ETA: If BGD had set your stone (and i totally get why you had it done locally) the prongs would have blended in style with the others and I doubt it would have compromised the integrity of the ring.

Hi HOT

I agree with dreamer here. BGD did the ring in my avatar, nicely pointed prongs on my centre stone as well as on the rest of the ring. It's not hand forged, but cast and I'm entirely happy with it. I think it's a bit risky tampering with prongs afterwards so I vote "no touch" as well! I'm actually a big believer in NOT changing jewellery after it's made, unless there's a big mistake that affects it's structural integrity. Ive tried it, but I've rarely been happy with the results. Plus, I hate "wasting" money reworking the same thing over again, which I could use to buy more jewels

Yssie, thanks for your informative thread! I'll be considering both VC and DBL for future projects, if I'm ever brave enough to go the hand forged route

 

[Dreamer_D]

I have been thinking about this thread a lot and something has been bugging me. I consider Yssie a friend, so I was unsure of whether to post or not as my opinion is likely not objective. But I have thought about it a lot and think I am reasonably objective in my feelings on this, meaning I would feel this way about any vendor-consumer interaction.

Perhaps Yssie micromanaged more than she should have. For the sake of argument let's take that as a given. For the sake of argument, let's also take it as a given that her requests to tweak the ring after it was made were unreasonable.

The issue I am having is that as a consumer she could not have known that her requests were unreasonable. And once the vendor agreed to make the changes, however reluctantly (oh how I dislike that term when used by a vendor, firmly placing all "blame" on the consumer ), then he should have done so to the best of his abilities and the returned ring should have been returned in the same condition it was in originally. If this is not possible, then either the consumer should be informed of this possibility (i.e., that the ring will be irreveribly damaged from the tweaks) and thus able to give informed consent, or the vendor shoud refuse to make the changes. The former did not appear to happen in this case, and the latter happened only after two rounds of tweaks.

It just seems to be to have been a "not ideal" process. And reading this thread the vendor appears to be placing the blame on the cosumer for the post-tweak state of the ring, which it seems both agree was less that perfect and less than would be expected from a $6000 piece of jewelery. And I think that is unfair.

On a more technical note, I am confused about why the reworks seem to have irreversably damaged the ring, as it seems such post hoc tweaks are often done on PS without detriment?

As this thread has progressed I am left feeling that the heavy participation by the vendor's involved in this interaction a little unorthodox. I have never before seen a PS thread where a consumer posts their experiences and then the vendors involved return repeatedly to post answers, give their side of things, gloat, and blame. At the same time, there are so few posts from consumers. I can only think these two things are related. Most readers are just silently watching. It is unusual. And leaves Yssie as the cheese who stands alone. Not really in the PS spirit it seems.

Moreover, we have had many threads similar to this in the past, either posting about a single ring with macro photos to display things the consumer did not like, or even comparing two or even three rings. And this is the first time I have seen vendors come to argue and place blame for the outcome on the consumer. So now my hat goes off to Yssie for handling this thread in a gracious and calm manner.

 

[iheartscience]

I have been thinking about this thread a lot and something has been bugging me. I consider Yssie a friend, so I was unsure of whether to post or not as my opinion is likely not objective. But I have thought about it a lot and think I am reasonably objective in my feelings on this, meaning I would feel this way about any vendor-consumer interaction.

Perhaps Yssie micromanaged more than she should have. For the sake of argument let's take that as a given. For the sake of argument, let's also take it as a given that her requests to tweak the ring after it was made were unreasonable.

The issue I am having is that as a consumer she could not have known that her requests were unreasonable. And once the vendor agreed to make the changes, however reluctantly (oh how I dislike that term when used by a vendor, firmly placing all "blame" on the consumer ), then he should have done so to the best of his abilities and the returned ring should have been returned in the same condition it was in originally. If this is not possible, then either the consumer should be informed of this possibility (i.e., that the ring will be irreveribly damaged from the tweaks) and thus able to give informed consent, or the vendor shoud refuse to make the changes. The former did not appear to happen in this case, and the latter happened only after two rounds of tweaks.

It just seems to be to have been a "not ideal" process. And reading this thread the vendor appears to be placing the blame on the cosumer for the post-tweak state of the ring, which it seems both agree was less that perfect and less than would be expected from a $6000 piece of jewelery. And I think that is unfair.

On a more technical note, I am confused about why the reworks seem to have irreversably damaged the ring, as it seems such post hoc tweaks are often done on PS without detriment?

As this thread has progressed I am left feeling that the heavy participation by the vendor's involved in this interaction a little unorthodox. I have never before seen a PS thread where a consumer posts their experiences and then the vendors involved return repeatedly to post answers, give their side of things, gloat, and blame. At the same time, there are so few posts from consumers. I can only think these two things are related. Most readers are just silently watching. It is unusual. And leaves Yssie as the cheese who stands alone. Not really in the PS spirit it seems.

Moreover, we have had many threads similar to this in the past, either posting about a single ring with macro photos to display things the consumer did not like, or even comparing two or even three rings. And this is the first time I have seen vendors come to argue and place blame for the outcome on the consumer. So now my hat goes off to Yssie for handling this thread in a gracious and calm manner.

Well said, dreamer. I agree that yssie was extremely gracious and calm in handling Victor Canera's comments.

The ring Victor Canera sent yssie is not what I would expect from a $6k piece of jewelry, before or after the tweaks. I'm honestly surprised he would send out such a ring. IMO, it would have been more prudent for him to tell yssie that unfortunately, due to the metal/design/etc., her design was not working out, and he didn't feel he could complete it. I also think he should offer her, at the very least, a partial refund. Whether the comparison photos are "fair" or not, it's clear that the ring by Victor Canera is not at the level of finishing or perfection one would expect from a $6k setting by a master craftsperson.

ETA I didn't mean to leave yssie standing alone, but I didn't feel like I had much to contribute, probably because yssie was handling all of the vendor back and forth so well.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

HOT I don't think the prongs need thinning per se, what makes them look "bulky" is the way the ends are finished IMO, being left rounded versus being bent over like the prongs BGD did on the rest of the ring. ETA: If BGD had set your stone (and i totally get why you had it done locally) the prongs would have blended in style with the others and I doubt it would have compromised the integrity of the ring.

Hi HOT

I agree with dreamer here. BGD did the ring in my avatar, nicely pointed prongs on my centre stone as well as on the rest of the ring. It's not hand forged, but cast and I'm entirely happy with it. I think it's a bit risky tampering with prongs afterwards so I vote "no touch" as well! I'm actually a big believer in NOT changing jewellery after it's made, unless there's a big mistake that affects it's structural integrity. Ive tried it, but I've rarely been happy with the results. Plus, I hate "wasting" money reworking the same thing over again, which I could use to buy more jewels

Yssie, thanks for your informative thread! I'll be considering both VC and DBL for future projects, if I'm ever brave enough to go the hand forged route

Okay, now I understand. I adore HOT's 5 stone design and love the finished ring, but I did wonder why BG finished the prongs into balls instead of the typical claws. And now I understand since they didn't set the stone. This is another instance where we can learn from the experience of others because we can't assume another jeweler is going to automatically do what we expect unless it is spelled out (and illustrated with pictures).

 

[missy]

I have been thinking about this thread a lot and something has been bugging me. I consider Yssie a friend, so I was unsure of whether to post or not as my opinion is likely not objective. But I have thought about it a lot and think I am reasonably objective in my feelings on this, meaning I would feel this way about any vendor-consumer interaction.

Perhaps Yssie micromanaged more than she should have. For the sake of argument let's take that as a given. For the sake of argument, let's also take it as a given that her requests to tweak the ring after it was made were unreasonable.

The issue I am having is that as a consumer she could not have known that her requests were unreasonable. And once the vendor agreed to make the changes, however reluctantly (oh how I dislike that term when used by a vendor, firmly placing all "blame" on the consumer ), then he should have done so to the best of his abilities and the returned ring should have been returned in the same condition it was in originally. If this is not possible, then either the consumer should be informed of this possibility (i.e., that the ring will be irreveribly damaged from the tweaks) and thus able to give informed consent, or the vendor shoud refuse to make the changes. The former did not appear to happen in this case, and the latter happened only after two rounds of tweaks.

It just seems to be to have been a "not ideal" process. And reading this thread the vendor appears to be placing the blame on the cosumer for the post-tweak state of the ring, which it seems both agree was less that perfect and less than would be expected from a $6000 piece of jewelery. And I think that is unfair.

On a more technical note, I am confused about why the reworks seem to have irreversably damaged the ring, as it seems such post hoc tweaks are often done on PS without detriment?

As this thread has progressed I am left feeling that the heavy participation by the vendor's involved in this interaction a little unorthodox. I have never before seen a PS thread where a consumer posts their experiences and then the vendors involved return repeatedly to post answers, give their side of things, gloat, and blame. At the same time, there are so few posts from consumers. I can only think these two things are related. Most readers are just silently watching. It is unusual. And leaves Yssie as the cheese who stands alone. Not really in the PS spirit it seems.

Moreover, we have had many threads similar to this in the past, either posting about a single ring with macro photos to display things the consumer did not like, or even comparing two or even three rings. And this is the first time I have seen vendors come to argue and place blame for the outcome on the consumer. So now my hat goes off to Yssie for handling this thread in a gracious and calm manner.

Well said, dreamer. I agree that yssie was extremely gracious and calm in handling Victor Canera's comments.

The ring Victor Canera sent yssie is not what I would expect from a $6k piece of jewelry, before or after the tweaks. I'm honestly surprised he would send out such a ring. IMO, it would have been more prudent for him to tell yssie that unfortunately, due to the metal/design/etc., her design was not working out, and he didn't feel he could complete it. I also think he should offer her, at the very least, a partial refund. Whether the comparison photos are "fair" or not, it's clear that the ring by Victor Canera is not at the level of finishing or perfection one would expect from a $6k setting by a master craftsperson.

ETA I didn't mean to leave yssie standing alone, but I didn't feel like I had much to contribute, probably because yssie was handling all of the vendor back and forth so well.

Just reading this thread now. I have to agree with both Dreamer and Thing. The vendor should be taking the responsibility for the final ring period. If someone asks him to do something to the ring that he knows to be unworkable/unreasonable then heck no- don't do it for goodness sake. He is supposed to be the professional here and only he knows what can and cannot be reasonably done. Very disappointing and I think Yssie has handled it all like a real pro!

Thanks so much for sharing your experience Yssie. I know that this info will be invaluable to many others. And congratulations on finally getting the ring of your dreams. May you enjoy it in health and happiness always.

 

[TristanC]

Umm, am i the only one that thinks that Yssie's ring from VC looks gorgeous? I mean I had to go look... this was the guy I was getting to design my ring (and it was a multi-stone ring to boot).

A real pity that it wasn't what Yssie wanted (every PSer has the right to have her utterly perfect piece!), but I kept looking at it, and I still think it looks very nice...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyA5iHhUhs8

 

[bright ice]

Umm, am i the only one that thinks that Yssie's ring from VC looks gorgeous? I mean I had to go look... this was the guy I was getting to design my ring (and it was a multi-stone ring to boot).

A real pity that it wasn't what Yssie wanted (every PSer has the right to have her utterly perfect piece!), but I kept looking at it, and I still think it looks very nice...

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyA5iHhUhs8

Agree

 

[decodelighted]

Contrarily -- I, like Victor Canera, (and countless silent PSers I'm sure) DO think this thread has developed into a kind of GOTCHA situation where Yssie's venting her frustration about UNSAID assumptions about "a ring of that price" -- i.e. -- finished INTERIOR areas etc. And comparing them to the results of a vendor who she specifically TOLD to finish the interior areas.

Vendors can be "guilty" of trying to jump through all kinds of specific demands in order to challenge themselves & please a customer. And customers can be "guilty" of changing their minds when they see that their ideas don't pan out with the very hoops they themselves requested. Who's to blame? What are you paying for anyway -- the vendor's best effort? Or some imaginary dream image in your head that's not doable? And who is responsible for difference in expectations of *proper finishing*? I guess, according to some here, the vendor is left holding the bag no matter what. Should Victor Canera refund the costs of his work after spending all that time & jumping through all those hoops time & time again?

In my opinion the Canera ring looks like a ring & the DBL looks like a bunch of inexpensive wire. And setting the stone as DICTATED makes the side view wonky. Where in the Canera version at least the side view was symmetrical.

Will there be an anti-DBL thread about how the difference in color of metals "wasn't disclosed properly"?

 

[bright ice]

Contrarily -- I, like Victor Canera, (and countless silent PSers I'm sure) DO think this thread has developed into a kind of GOTCHA situation where Yssie's venting her frustration about UNSAID assumptions about "a ring of that price" -- i.e. -- finished INTERIOR areas etc. And comparing them to the results of a vendor who she specifically TOLD to finish the interior areas.

Vendors can be "guilty" of trying to jump through all kinds of specific demands in order to challenge themselves & please a customer. And customers can be "guilty" of changing their minds when they see that their ideas don't pan out with the very hoops they themselves requested. Who's to blame? What are you paying for anyway -- the vendor's best effort? Or some imaginary dream image in your head that's not doable? And who is responsible for difference in expectations of *proper finishing*? I guess, according to some here, the vendor is left holding the bag no matter what. Should Victor Canera refund the costs of his work after spending all that time & jumping through all those hoops time & time again?

In my opinion the Canera ring looks like a ring & the DBL looks like a bunch of inexpensive wire. And setting the stone as DICTATED makes the side view wonky. Where in the Canera version at least the side view was symmetrical.

Will there be an anti-DBL thread about how the difference in color of metals "wasn't disclosed properly"?

Agree!

 

[farmer gal]

I have been thinking about this thread a lot and something has been bugging me. I consider Yssie a friend, so I was unsure of whether to post or not as my opinion is likely not objective. But I have thought about it a lot and think I am reasonably objective in my feelings on this, meaning I would feel this way about any vendor-consumer interaction.

Perhaps Yssie micromanaged more than she should have. For the sake of argument let's take that as a given. For the sake of argument, let's also take it as a given that her requests to tweak the ring after it was made were unreasonable.

The issue I am having is that as a consumer she could not have known that her requests were unreasonable. And once the vendor agreed to make the changes, however reluctantly (oh how I dislike that term when used by a vendor, firmly placing all "blame" on the consumer ), then he should have done so to the best of his abilities and the returned ring should have been returned in the same condition it was in originally. If this is not possible, then either the consumer should be informed of this possibility (i.e., that the ring will be irreveribly damaged from the tweaks) and thus able to give informed consent, or the vendor shoud refuse to make the changes. The former did not appear to happen in this case, and the latter happened only after two rounds of tweaks.

It just seems to be to have been a "not ideal" process. And reading this thread the vendor appears to be placing the blame on the cosumer for the post-tweak state of the ring, which it seems both agree was less that perfect and less than would be expected from a $6000 piece of jewelery. And I think that is unfair.

On a more technical note, I am confused about why the reworks seem to have irreversably damaged the ring, as it seems such post hoc tweaks are often done on PS without detriment?

As this thread has progressed I am left feeling that the heavy participation by the vendor's involved in this interaction a little unorthodox. I have never before seen a PS thread where a consumer posts their experiences and then the vendors involved return repeatedly to post answers, give their side of things, gloat, and blame. At the same time, there are so few posts from consumers. I can only think these two things are related. Most readers are just silently watching. It is unusual. And leaves Yssie as the cheese who stands alone. Not really in the PS spirit it seems.

Moreover, we have had many threads similar to this in the past, either posting about a single ring with macro photos to display things the consumer did not like, or even comparing two or even three rings. And this is the first time I have seen vendors come to argue and place blame for the outcome on the consumer. So now my hat goes off to Yssie for handling this thread in a gracious and calm manner.

Well said, dreamer. I agree that yssie was extremely gracious and calm in handling Victor Canera's comments.

The ring Victor Canera sent yssie is not what I would expect from a $6k piece of jewelry, before or after the tweaks. I'm honestly surprised he would send out such a ring. IMO, it would have been more prudent for him to tell yssie that unfortunately, due to the metal/design/etc., her design was not working out, and he didn't feel he could complete it. I also think he should offer her, at the very least, a partial refund. Whether the comparison photos are "fair" or not, it's clear that the ring by Victor Canera is not at the level of finishing or perfection one would expect from a $6k setting by a master craftsperson.

ETA I didn't mean to leave yssie standing alone, but I didn't feel like I had much to contribute, probably because yssie was handling all of the vendor back and forth so well.

I completely agree This is a large amount to spend on a setting, and I would also expect as close to perfection as possible. I don't think it is fair to blame the consumer. I am currenlty working on a sapphire ring with my friend/jeweler and I have made requests that she has plainly told me were not possible and she is certainly not at the VC level. I don't believe the tweaks that were made after the ring was made has caused the obvious difference in workmanship. I would also be very disapointed with the quality if I was Yissie I furthur more do not feel that it was unfair for Yissie to make this post, because it does educaute future consumers and hopefully vendors will take away something away from this thread for future business dealings. Ultimately you are supposed to be the professional and if a consumer is making unreasonable requests that are going to ruin your workmanship the answer should have been no.

 

[bright ice]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyA5iHhUhs8

Isn't this the ring after the tweaks? I'm not really seeing the ring as being ruined here. I don't see how Victor can be responsible for what happens to his work after it has left his hands!

 

[decodelighted]

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IyA5iHhUhs8
Isn't this the ring after the tweaks? I'm not really seeing the ring as being ruined here. I don't see how Victor can be responsible for what happens to his work after it has left his hands!

Not to mention SPLAYED open and examined internally with microphotography & wrath. How many settings of ANY PRICE stand up to that level of scrutiny?


ETA: Over the course of some years I've seen many Aesthetic NIGHTMARES come out of DBL ... whereas I've never seen anything unsightly from Victor Canera (albeit a much shorter PS history.)

 

[marymm]

(tossing my hat in the ring) I consider this thread by Yssie to be a subjective one, where she provides her opinion as to the relative merits of the VC and DBL settings. I do not consider it objective in the least - realistically, it couldn't be - though I am convinced of Yssie's intent to be fair and factually honest. Clearly, Yssie prefers the DBL ring, and she states the reasons therefor. I believe it is also clear that Yssie remains unsatisfied with the VC custom ring transaction, though IMHO VC acted professionally throughout.

Honestly, I think this situation is an outlier, and as means of vendor comparison in my own mind its usefulness is reduced accordingly.

And, having read this entire thread and the entirety of the related threads, between the VC and DBL rings, I continue to prefer the VC ring. However, looking at Charmy's 5-Stone Ring comparison chart - FWIW my eyes tend to prefer the lines of the BGD ring.

 

[Laila619]

I have never before seen a PS thread where a consumer posts their experiences and then the vendors involved return repeatedly to post answers, give their side of things, gloat, and blame.

I have. I remember when a popular certain vendor used to reply to complaints or issues on the board all the time.

Anyway, with Yssie's project, hand-forged just doesn't seem like the right fit. I think Victor and DbL both made beautiful rings though.

 

[crown1]

Oh boy - not what I meant, I'm sorry again! I had a strict budget that was lower than my original budget (I couldn't afford double), we talked and decided that yes, they could do it in my budget, as an experimental project. I don't want to share what that budget was or the reasons for why it was what it was on a public forum, but I'm confident that if you approach them (them being any vendor) and say "this is what I want and this is what I can spend, what can we do?" you'll most likely be able to work something out!

I hope my ring is a testimonial - it *should* be. It's just one of many though - I got to play with probably 20, 30 different rings in my visit? The vast majority were halos though, or involved pave in some way! And I hope to have another testimonial, from WF, in a few weeks

Anyway - hope that cleared stuff up a bit, I didn't mean to make anything sound sinister or strangely secretive! And thank you!



Victor - The centerstone re-orientation was not the result of me changing my mind several times as you seem to imply, it was because you neglected my original explicit instructions and later found you were unable to fulfill them. Your accusation is distasteful and insulting, and is unmerited; we have different perspectives. I am, however, happy to hear that you have gained something positive from this thread, and this experience, as have I.


*Edited.

i am not feeling anyone left any cheese standing alone. yssie is an intelligent poster who has no problem speaking up for herself. i quote her above post wondering how the dbl reset was able to come into budget being an experiment. what was the experiment? is it fair to compare one vendor's work that was not an experiment with another's whose was? or were they both experiments?

i am wondering if the level of this "comparison" has maybe gone a little too far. i am myself a rather picky person and i think the original picture of the vc ring looks fine. i am not sure a lot has been learned from this comparison of dbl and vc.

i understand she was not happy with the vc but she may have opened pandora's box for future projects. few of us can take such public scrutiny. jmho with all due respect to yssie, vc and dbl.

 

[Laila619]

(tossing my hat in the ring) I consider this thread by Yssie to be a subjective one, where she provides her opinion as to the relative merits of the VC and DBL settings. I do not consider it objective in the least - realistically, it couldn't be - though I am convinced of Yssie's intent to be fair and factually honest. Clearly, Yssie prefers the DBL ring, and she states the reasons therefor. I believe it is also clear that Yssie remains unsatisfied with the VC custom ring transaction, though IMHO VC acted professionally throughout.

Honestly, I think this situation is an outlier, and as means of vendor comparison in my own mind its usefulness is reduced accordingly.

And, having read this entire thread and the entirety of the related threads, between the VC and DBL rings, I continue to prefer the VC ring. However, looking at Charmy's 5-Stone Ring comparison chart - FWIW my eyes tend to prefer the lines of the BGD ring.

Yes, good point. Very much an outlier.

 

[TravelingGal]

I have never before seen a PS thread where a consumer posts their experiences and then the vendors involved return repeatedly to post answers, give their side of things, gloat, and blame.

I have. I remember when a popular certain vendor used to reply to complaints or issues on the board all the time.

Anyway, with Yssie's project, hand-forged just doesn't seem like the right fit. I think Victor and DbL both made beautiful rings though.

Me too, and more than one. Dreamer, c'mon girl, you're usually pretty spot on for me, but you're kidding right? It happens ALL THE TIME.

 

[AnneinGA]

Like Dreamer, I too have been thinking a lot about this thread, but not for the same reasons. First, full disclosure, I have no rings/stones/any business with Victor, DBL, or WF. The only ring I have is from BGD so no personal experience with a vendor clouds my thought process.

I think the whole thread is patently unfair to vendor #2, Victor, and I don't see how he can possibly win or even coming out being netural the way this thread was presented.

The first six posts of this thread, (which have the most data, and the most damning, macro macro photos) is presented as an "apples to apples" comparison of two rings that were commissioned. Imagine you're a newbie on this site, trying to choose between Victor and DBL to do a custom setting, and you look at the comparison photos. The newbie doesn't know Yssie's level of detail, pickiness, desire for perfection, and that this is the third setting of the stone in eighteen months. All they see - because let's face it, we will all look at the photos, and not necessarily read the details - is the difference between how they actually look. It's not until page two, or three, when Victor comes in to do damage control, and shows *different photos* that there is ground given that maybe the VC ring was not received in the state of the photos posted.

Second, it's not an apples to apples. The first kinks came out with WF, every single solitary detail was supposedly covered ad nauseum with the second design, and then "must haves" are conceded on the third iteration when it was discovered that some things weren't possible. That's not really clear unless you read every last line in the thread.

And then there are the Victor-bashers, of which I bet none are business owners. What else was he supposed to do? There's nothing like an uber-picky client, that you try to help out anyway, that ends up biting you in the tush and then you can't do anything right. Him not saying anything makes Yssie's position appear correct, and them him sticking up for himself makes others uncomfortable because they think he's trying to blame Yssie. Would we have seen actual photos of the ring before being sent to Yssie had Victor not posted?

IMHO, both sides have accountability. Yssie for not being able to put into writing each and every thing she likes or doesn't like (which is pretty impossible) and Victor for taking on a job regardless of that huge red flag in the back of his head that this would not turn out. Jewelry, especially custom jewelry, while dealing with actual hard things like stones and metal, is an extremely subjective thing. It's personal art. You can talk drawings and presentation, but sometimes you don't know if you like something till you actually lay eyes on it. Yssie (like many people, me included) can like or not like something instantly upon view, but putting that dislike on paper prior to the final product is impossible. And if it's really true that he didn't know that Yssie was unhappy with the final piece until he saw this thread, that's wrong.

I think those posters with a LOT of posts - Yssie falls into that category, have to be more responsible with how data is presented. It's not a fair comparison. This thread comes off like "look at the $hit I got from VC compared to the new shiny beautiful ring I got from DBL". Further, DBL could have some class that the third time's the charm, the two in front took most of the heat and he got lucky (for now). Remember there are now three "I love my ring" posts on SMTB for the same stones, and two have been reworked. I guess we'll see, because there's already talk of metal issues.

And now, I will duck for cover, because I figure that I'm in the minority, and the flame is coming.

 

[decodelighted]

+1 to Anne's points. All of 'em.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I have never before seen a PS thread where a consumer posts their experiences and then the vendors involved return repeatedly to post answers, give their side of things, gloat, and blame.

I have. I remember when a popular certain vendor used to reply to complaints or issues on the board all the time.

Anyway, with Yssie's project, hand-forged just doesn't seem like the right fit. I think Victor and DbL both made beautiful rings though.

Me too, and more than one. Dreamer, c'mon girl, you're usually pretty spot on for me, but you're kidding right? It happens ALL THE TIME.

Well, I didn't exactly take a poll, I was just going by memory, which is pretty fooggy these days Now that you mention it I can think of one other thread that felt like this involving another vendor. I recall in that thread that man many PSers called the vendor out on his actions. Usually, it is only the "critiqued" vendor who replies, too. In this case, the "winning" vendor is also posting and inserting himself into the conversation, which seems heavy handed to me. So my comment was not only about VC but about DBL too. Anyway, that one comment was not really all that important for the point I was making.

At least PSers are weighing in now, whether they agree with me or not I don't give one fig, but the strange silence was just... strange.

For the record and to be clear My previous post said nothing about whether the ring VC created was or wat not beautiful. I also conceded for argument that Yssie was a micrmanaging nightmare client My critique was directed purely at VCs responses in this thread which, when read, a) seemed to agree that the tweaked ring was not one he was happy with (or why say he should not do tweeks? The undercurrent is that it somehow results in a less pleasing product) and b) the less than ideal outcome was the client's fault. I don't think either of these are good practices for a vendor.

After I posted it appears a flood gate has opened and people are "agreeing" with some things I might not have actually said Each consumer has a right to their opinion, but wanted to be clear what mine is.

 

[TravelingGal]

I have never before seen a PS thread where a consumer posts their experiences and then the vendors involved return repeatedly to post answers, give their side of things, gloat, and blame.

I have. I remember when a popular certain vendor used to reply to complaints or issues on the board all the time.

Anyway, with Yssie's project, hand-forged just doesn't seem like the right fit. I think Victor and DbL both made beautiful rings though.

Me too, and more than one. Dreamer, c'mon girl, you're usually pretty spot on for me, but you're kidding right? It happens ALL THE TIME.

Well, I didn't exactly take a poll, I was just going by memory, which is pretty fooggy these days Now that you mention it I can think of one other thread that felt like this involving another vendor. I recall in that thread that man many PSers called the vendor out on his actions. Usually, it is only the "critiqued" vendor who replies, too. In this case, the "winning" vendor is also posting and inserting himself into the conversation, which seems heavy handed to me. So my comment was not only about VC but about DBL too. Anyway, that one comment was not really all that important for the point I was making.

At least PSers are weighing in now, whether they agree with me or not I don't give one fig, but the strange silence was just... strange.

For the record and to be clear My previous post said nothing about whether the ring VC created was or wat not beautiful. I also conceded for argument that Yssie was a micrmanaging nightmare client My critique was directed purely at VCs responses in this thread which, when read, a) seemed to agree that the tweaked ring was not one he was happy with (or why say he should not do tweeks? The undercurrent is that it somehow results in a less pleasing product) and b) the less than ideal outcome was the client's fault. I don't think either of these are good practices for a vendor.

After I posted it appears a flood gate has opened and people are "agreeing" with some things I might not have actually said Each consumer has a right to their opinion, but wanted to be clear what mine is.

I understand the fog. Happens when there are little ones taking up most of your brain power. I had to wonder for a sec though, because off the top of my head, I can think of two instances that involve "she's" and not he's!

The general PS opinion has usually been that if a consumer puts it out there, the vendor should have a right to respond. Sometimes that works well, sometimes that doesn't. Do it as your own risk, I suppose. But whether or not I agree with the vendors' rebuttals, I usually am glad they do because I usually learn something from it!

 

[TravelingGal]

Oh, and to the other points about tweaking...

What VC said makes sense to me. Assuming you have a nightmare micromanaging customer (who you probably didnt know was that way until you got INTO the project), and this customer is spending some BIG money on a setting, as a vendor if I found myself in this novel situation where tweaks were being requested, I would consider trying to make it perfect for the customer - possibly against my better judgment. What I got from VC is that he will no longer do this, because he's going to trust his own skills vs the wants of the customer. I mean, think about it...how many times has Leon been blasted around here for saying "No food for you, leave my soup kitchen!" So VC could had two choices: say nope, sorry...here's your setting that you paid for, enjoy it - or try to do the customer service thing.

The final product, if less than pleasing would be both the customer and the vendor's fault, IMHO.

Which leads me to something I've believed in for YEARS around here. If you want X, Y, Z, and beyond, you don't need an ARTIST. You need a BENCH. We all fall in love with some of the artistry of many of the vendors around here. If you want art, then let the artist do his job.

ETA, and not to downplay Yssie's vision in anyway...she was the artist here in many ways but needed someone to bring HER vision to life. I think DBL did an awesome job on her ring, but at this point it was copying an already existing picture.

 

[Dreamer_D]

I have never before seen a PS thread where a consumer posts their experiences and then the vendors involved return repeatedly to post answers, give their side of things, gloat, and blame.

I have. I remember when a popular certain vendor used to reply to complaints or issues on the board all the time.

Anyway, with Yssie's project, hand-forged just doesn't seem like the right fit. I think Victor and DbL both made beautiful rings though.

Me too, and more than one. Dreamer, c'mon girl, you're usually pretty spot on for me, but you're kidding right? It happens ALL THE TIME.

Well, I didn't exactly take a poll, I was just going by memory, which is pretty fooggy these days Now that you mention it I can think of one other thread that felt like this involving another vendor. I recall in that thread that man many PSers called the vendor out on his actions. Usually, it is only the "critiqued" vendor who replies, too. In this case, the "winning" vendor is also posting and inserting himself into the conversation, which seems heavy handed to me. So my comment was not only about VC but about DBL too. Anyway, that one comment was not really all that important for the point I was making.

At least PSers are weighing in now, whether they agree with me or not I don't give one fig, but the strange silence was just... strange.

For the record and to be clear My previous post said nothing about whether the ring VC created was or wat not beautiful. I also conceded for argument that Yssie was a micrmanaging nightmare client My critique was directed purely at VCs responses in this thread which, when read, a) seemed to agree that the tweaked ring was not one he was happy with (or why say he should not do tweeks? The undercurrent is that it somehow results in a less pleasing product) and b) the less than ideal outcome was the client's fault. I don't think either of these are good practices for a vendor.

After I posted it appears a flood gate has opened and people are "agreeing" with some things I might not have actually said Each consumer has a right to their opinion, but wanted to be clear what mine is.

I understand the fog. Happens when there are little ones taking up most of your brain power. I had to wonder for a sec though, because off the top of my head, I can think of two instances that involve "she's" and not he's!

The general PS opinion has usually been that if a consumer puts it out there, the vendor should have a right to respond. Sometimes that works well, sometimes that doesn't. Do it as your own risk, I suppose. But whether or not I agree with the vendors' rebuttals, I usually am glad they do because I usually learn something from it!

Hmmm. I am thinking of another "he". Regardless, you are right, there are lots of posts with back and forth between consumers and vendors. We haven't seen it in a while, I guess. This case seemed odd more for DBLs participation perhaps, than for VCs. Usually a vendor with a happy client just says "We are happy you are happy!" and leaves it at that.

Yes, that is true, vendors of course have a right to respond! And we do learn things. Often it seems we learn things the vendors don't intend Sometimes I think Leon has things right in this regard Let the consumers duke it out. BGD have been absent from the boards for a long time, I think they are in the Leon camp now. haha

 

[galeteia]

This thread comes off like "look at the $hit I got from VC compared to the new shiny beautiful ring I got from DBL". Further, DBL could have some class that the third time's the charm, the two in front took most of the heat and he got lucky (for now). Remember there are now three "I love my ring" posts on SMTB for the same stones, and two have been reworked. I guess we'll see, because there's already talk of metal issues.

As an uninvested observer, I have to agree with everything you just said.

It's not apples to apples, for all the reasons that you posted. DBL's smug posts in this thread and elsewhere are very off-putting, and the entire thread does feel like VC is being thrown under the bus.

I do not blame Yssie for her feelings towards a long, expensive, and stressful process involving a very sentimental piece of jewellery (I would absolutely feel the same way in her position, devil take the big picture) but as an outside party watching this unfold over several threads, I don't agree with the picture that is being painted of VC. I hope the lesson he has learned about putting his foot down and fleshing out his policies was soon enough that there will be no lasting negative impact on his business.

 

[TravelingGal]

[quote="Dreamer_D|1328903462|3123419
Hmmm. I am thinking of another "he". Regardless, you are right, there are lots of posts with back and forth between consumers and vendors. We haven't seen it in a while, I guess. This case seemed odd more for DBLs participation perhaps, than for VCs. Usually a vendor with a happy client just says "We are happy you are happy!" and leaves it at that.

Yes, that is true, vendors of course have a right to respond! And we do learn things. Often it seems we learn things the vendors don't intend Sometimes I think Leon has things right in this regard Let the consumers duke it out. BGD have been absent from the boards for a long time, I think they are in the Leon camp now. haha[/quote]

I agree. He gets some eye rolling from me from time to time, but IMHO, he handles it the right way in terms of not getting himself into any inadvertent drama. Advertise here, but just let his work speak for itself and let the customer vent if they want. In all the years I've seen crap threads about him, it doesn't seem to impact that much his level of business! The guy's focusing on creating jewelry, not his reputation, and I gotta like that! No buddy buddy for him!

 

[missy]

Oh, and to the other points about tweaking...

What VC said makes sense to me. Assuming you have a nightmare micromanaging customer (who you probably didnt know was that way until you got INTO the project), and this customer is spending some BIG money on a setting, as a vendor if I found myself in this novel situation where tweaks were being requested, I would consider trying to make it perfect for the customer - possibly against my better judgment. What I got from VC is that he will no longer do this, because he's going to trust his own skills vs the wants of the customer. I mean, think about it...how many times has Leon been blasted around here for saying "No food for you, leave my soup kitchen!" So VC could had two choices: say nope, sorry...here's your setting that you paid for, enjoy it - or try to do the customer service thing.

The final product, if less than pleasing would be both the customer and the vendor's fault, IMHO.

Which leads me to something I've believed in for YEARS around here. If you want X, Y, Z, and beyond, you don't need an ARTIST. You need a BENCH. We all fall in love with some of the artistry of many of the vendors around here. If you want art, then let the artist do his job.

True, I couldn't agree with you more. Only problem is when you commission an artist to do his thing there is a leap of faith. No matter how much you love his/her work if you are commissioning a custom piece that they haven't done before you just don't know how much you will love the final result. Therein lies the risk of custom. If this thread has taught me anything it's that I don't think I am cut out for true custom (not done before) work. My ER was custom but a very simple custom that has been done before (albeit not by my vendor). Something of this complexity was a huge risk on the part of the consumer.

I don't think anyone is a villian here. I have never done business with any of the vendors written about here so I have no leaning one way or another toward either vendor. Both seem to do beautiful work. I feel Victor was wrong in blaming Yssie even a little bit if he went against his better judgment and reworked the ring/changed something he knew he oughtn't have done. One is paying for their knowledge and experience. No matter how much you want to please the customer you must never go against your expertise.
I feel David probably doesn't know when to stop speaking and gets himself in hot water. However, that doesn't speak to either of these vendors skill and artistry and I wouldn't hesitate in purchasing jewelry from either vendor.

 

[Dreamer_D]

Oh, and to the other points about tweaking...

What VC said makes sense to me. Assuming you have a nightmare micromanaging customer (who you probably didnt know was that way until you got INTO the project), and this customer is spending some BIG money on a setting, as a vendor if I found myself in this novel situation where tweaks were being requested, I would consider trying to make it perfect for the customer - possibly against my better judgment. What I got from VC is that he will no longer do this, because he's going to trust his own skills vs the wants of the customer. I mean, think about it...how many times has Leon been blasted around here for saying "No food for you, leave my soup kitchen!" So VC could had two choices: say nope, sorry...here's your setting that you paid for, enjoy it - or try to do the customer service thing.

The final product, if less than pleasing would be both the customer and the vendor's fault, IMHO.

Which leads me to something I've believed in for YEARS around here. If you want X, Y, Z, and beyond, you don't need an ARTIST. You need a BENCH. We all fall in love with some of the artistry of many of the vendors around here. If you want art, then let the artist do his job.

ETA, and not to downplay Yssie's vision in anyway...she was the artist here in many ways but needed someone to bring HER vision to life. I think DBL did an awesome job on her ring, but at this point it was copying an already existing picture.

I agree with your completely on all of these points, especially the bolded. And kudos to Victor for changing his approach or policies to be hopefully transparent, it will benefit hom and future customers.

I suppose underlying all of this might be the question of whether a vendor should just *remake a ring* if a client is not happy? I have heard some vendors do this DBL seemed to say they would I have heard other vendors promise clients the same thing. For prices like some charge, there seems to be room in the profit margin, no?

I recall a thread that suggested Mark Morrell (sp?) turns away custom when he thinks fit might not be good. I think all vendors should do that.

 

[decodelighted]

The guy's (Leon Mege) focusing on creating jewelry, not his reputation, and I gotta like that! No buddy buddy for him!

Maybe he's learned the most important lesson of all ... if you happen to manage to please a very difficult customer: stop while you're ahead!