Colored stone veteran, but diamond newbie needs help.

[Autumn in New England]

Hello all,

This is my first post in the RT subforum. I've been a colored stone collector for years, and, naturally, I've also purchased my fair share of diamond accents with which to set them. But I've never made a "major" diamond purchase before. You're all going to groan... it's a heart shape. lol I know the more traditional shapes rule supreme here, and for good reason, since cut is king in the diamond world. But I have my heart set on a heart, as it were. So the brilliance and cut quality won't be comparable to an ACA round, obviously. But I am, of course, trying to get the most out of the 4 C's and other tangibles while staying on budget. I found this article very helpful...

Heart Shaped Diamond Guide

Here’s what we’ll cover in this article: What is a Heart shaped diamond?How to choose the best cut for a Heart shaped diamond?What length to width ratio

www.diamonds.pro

With all of that in mind, here are the details of the stone I have reserved:

~GIA certified
~2.04ct.
~Approximately 8mm north-south x 9mm east-west x 5mm deep (so a ratio of about .89... the least chubby one I could find)
~F, VS2 (the inclusions consist of tiny carbon pinpoints off to the sides, and I just hope they're not eye visible)
~Depth percentage of 56 and table percentage of 60
~Cut/polish/symmetry are all excellent
~Medium blue fluorescence... this is really where I compromised... ideally, I wanted none or faint



Am I missing anything else that I should be considering? Many thanks in advance!!

Best,
Autumn

 

[Karl_K]

First off that guide to put it kindly is just one persons opinion and not a single fact.
Forget it for now.
Now the questions..
Do you like the outline?
Different people like different outlines and that's ok.
Hearts suffer from 2 issues...
Lot of Leakage under the table.
Lots of obstruction under the table(can be ok in a pendant but not in rings)
Do you have any other images or video you can link?
The current image is what I would call inconclusive.
ASET or IS would be really nice if available.

 

[yssie]

In #1 - see all the mush under the table? You can’t see facets clearly, just looks grey and gloopy. IRL this translates into gloopy sparkle… Under jeweller’s lights this stone will look great, but in less favourable lighting environments it won’t spark sizzle or flash nearly as much as another stone with facets that look crisp.

#2 - in the face forward there really isn’t any mush at all face-up! Pretty dang good. And you have to tilt a lot before you start to see mush. Pretty dang good.
(Only pretty dang good because it’s got a touch more obstruction than I’d like to see, ideally - a little more black in the under-table area than ideal. The black is the stone reflecting the camera directly in front of it, some obstruction is good but too much will make the stone look black when you lean in close or bend over it at close range…)

#3 - it’s okay. There’s a little bit of mush face-up and it’ll only get more mushy as you tilt. But it’s far from terrible.


Ditto Karl, video will show a lot more if you can get one Fancy shapes can be unpredictable, sometimes you start seeing mush at very small tilt and sometimes you’re good for several degrees, but it’s (oddly!) not super guess-able from the face-up.

Your selection def doesn’t have any obstruction issues so the q is if it stays not-mushy through reasonable tilt

 

[Autumn in New England]

Very helpful, @Karl_K and @yssie, thank you! I know of the mush in which you speak!! lol I did try my best to avoid it. Just so difficult to find everything you want on a budget. I'd find a stone, but then see a different issue. Lower fluorescence, but also lower color, or better clarity but a lesser cut grade, etc. I had to make a couple of concessions. The listing had 2 vids, which I should have saved/uploaded to YT before reserving the stone, because now they've removed the page. grrrr I thought it looked great, but we shall see. They all (well, almost all) look great, ya know? It's deceiving.

To answer your question, Karl, I do love the outline. Some were too narrow or chubby, didn't have a pronounced cleft, or were too rounded on the bottom. A few things... I like F color, so I'm satisfied with that. But I would have went with a higher clarity, if possible. I also like the size... it faces up pretty large. So I'm most worried about the stone being eye clean in person with good (for a heart) light performance.

Yssie, what do you think of the medium fluorescence? I was assured this diamond would not be hazy in daylight, though I really would have liked less/none. But, as we know, once you start upping the clarity and lessening the fluorescence, the price goes up exponentially. I tried! This was ultimately the best combo of the 4 C's I could come up with in my price range. Does it look good enough on paper to get home and see in person?

I've always wanted a diamond, even though CS are my true love. So I'd like a nice stone (doesn't have to be... er won't be... perfect) without completely blowing my CS setting budget.

Thanks again for your time, my friends!

 

[Autumn in New England]

Lots of obstruction under the table(can be ok in a pendant but not in rings)

Karl, would you please explain what you mean by obstruction? Many thanks!

 

[yssie]

Yup. There’s always something to have to compromise on, I feel you! Never possible to get every box checked off.

Honestly I’ve said in the past that I think the big labs sometimes pull fluor grades out of hats and nothing’s happened to change my opinion on that. If fluor is important to you one way or the other you’d need to see it yourself (or have trusted eyes check it) regardless of what the report says. Even if the report DID say faint/neg/none. So 100% to seeing it as long as you’re comfy with your return options if you don’t like what you see!!

Not Karl obvi but John Pollard’s post in this thread is an excellent explanation of obstruction, and he links an education page that’s got a ton more background

Obstruction vs clustering

Hi all, NiceIce has a page about obstruction and it points out the difference between obstruction and clustering. Despite the nice images with arrows, I still cannot tell the difference between the two, and I can't find a single other website that discusses the differences. Can any of the...

www.pricescope.com

 

[Autumn in New England]

Yup. There’s always something to have to compromise on, I feel you! Never possible to get every box checked off.

Honestly I’ve said in the past that I think the big labs sometimes pull fluor grades out of hats and nothing’s happened to change my opinion on that. If fluor is important to you one way or the other you’d need to see it yourself (or have trusted eyes check it) regardless of what the report says. Even if the report DID say faint/neg/none. So 100% to seeing it as long as you’re comfy with your return options if you don’t like what you see!!

Not Karl obvi but John Pollard’s post in this thread is an excellent explanation of obstruction, and he links an education page that’s got a ton more background

Obstruction vs clustering

Hi all, NiceIce has a page about obstruction and it points out the difference between obstruction and clustering. Despite the nice images with arrows, I still cannot tell the difference between the two, and I can't find a single other website that discusses the differences. Can any of the...

www.pricescope.com

Interesting! So you think the fluor could be stronger or weaker in person than stated by the GIA? I will prepare myself for that possibility. Just hoping its effects, if any, are not visible under normal daylight conditions. If there's even the slightest suggestion of haze, it will go back, as that's one thing I cannot tolerate. I wonder if I should just drive into NYC to view their stones in person? They do have a great return policy though (free). I also like their lifetime upgrade guarantee, though most of the larger dealers offer it these days... I don't see myself doing that in the foreseeable future, however. I appreciate you taking the time to help me (again)!!

P.S. Thanks for the obstruction info!

 

[Karl_K]

Karl, would you please explain what you mean by obstruction? Many thanks!

Its when the stone tries to draw light from where your are instead of brighter areas around you.
Up close and not to much can provide nice patterns aka arrows on a round.
To much and it makes the diamond look dark.

At longer distances where you can't clearly make out the patterns if the diamond is still drawing light from you it will also look darker than it should.

Photos and videos make it complicated because they produce more obstruction than you would without the camera.
A photo can at times make a good stone look bad because of this happening.

Is it possible to see the stone unset with a return period and if you love it send it back to be set, if not for a refund?
This would cost a bit for the return shipping which you would need to pay.

 

[yssie]

Interesting! So you think the fluor could be stronger or weaker in person than stated by the GIA? I will prepare myself for that possibility.

Yeah. It can be all over the place. Lots of reasons for that - grading lighting calibration, human opinion, etc. Although “medium” is of course much harder to define in non-grader terms than “neg” or “none” anyway!

Just hoping its effects, if any, are not visible under normal daylight conditions. If there's even the slightest suggestion of haze, it will go back, as that's one thing I cannot tolerate.

100%. It’s a very rare effect. And it’s actually not the fluorescence that causes the haze specifically - it’s the confluence of fluorescence and clouds or wisps or graining or other such “diffuse” inclusions (which may not be listed on the report or even considered in the clarity grade). So there are a few other confounding factors that need to be present to create a problem - not just fluor alone.

I wonder if I should just drive into NYC to view their stones in person? They do have a great return policy though (free). I also like their lifetime upgrade guarantee, though most of the larger dealers offer it these days... I don't see myself doing that in the foreseeable future, however. I appreciate you taking the time to help me (again)!!

P.S. Thanks for the obstruction info!

If you’re within driving distance you could always go lookie-loo and then have your finalist shipped to wherever you reside to not pay NYC sales tax, if your home state’s tax is lower… I do this (with non-bling stuff) fairly frequently, when it’s convenient. NYC sales tax is wretched!!

 

[Autumn in New England]

Its when the stone tries to draw light from where your are instead of brighter areas around you.
Up close and not to much can provide nice patterns aka arrows on a round.
To much and it makes the diamond look dark.

At longer distances where you can't clearly make out the patterns if the diamond is still drawing light from you it will also look darker than it should.

Photos and videos make it complicated because they produce more obstruction than you would without the camera.
A photo can at times make a good stone look bad because of this happening.

Is it possible to see the stone unset with a return period and if you love it send it back to be set, if not for a refund?
This would cost a bit for the return shipping which you would need to pay.

Immensely helpful, this. Thank you! Also, the link Yssie provided was like a crash course... so informative. Yes, I do not plan on having this vendor set the stone for me, so I will receive it unmounted. They also offer free returns. I may drive into NYC anyway (always looking for a reason to visit during the holidays). I'll let you know how I make out! I may have to "eye" this one. I don't think it's as empirical as a round or traditional cut, which makes it tricky. I'd feel much more confident if I had some numbers on which to rely. Cut is just not as important with CS (aside from avoiding windows and major extinction)...

 

[Karl_K]

If you decide to go in ask the vendor if they can pull in some others for you to look at while your there.
You may be surprised at what you fall in love with!

 

[Autumn in New England]

100%. It’s a very rare effect. And it’s actually not the fluorescence that causes the haze specifically - it’s the confluence of fluorescence and clouds or wisps or graining or other such “diffuse” inclusions. So there are a few other confounding factors that need to be present to create a problem - not just fluor alone.

I was reading about this last night! I always thought it was fluor alone. After doing some research, I purposely chose a stone that did not have certain inclusion patterns on the diamond plot or in the comments. This guy only has pinpoints... but several and they're dark (though none are under the table). Anyway, I tried my best to cover everything, but who knows. Just so many factors to consider!

If you’re within driving distance you could always go lookie-loo and then have your finalist shipped to wherever you reside to not pay NYC sales tax, if your home state’s tax is lower… I do this (with non-bling stuff) fairly frequently, when it’s convenient.

Yeah, I was disappointed that they collect tax in my state... perhaps if I did as you said, it could be avoided. I'll definitely check back in. Many thanks again!!

 

[Autumn in New England]

If you decide to go in ask the vendor if they can pull in some others for you to look at while your there.
You may be surprised at what you fall in love with!

Isn't it always that way! Thank you. Hey how is your (I believe) neuropathy? Are you managing the pain ok?

 

[Autumn in New England]

In #1 - see all the mush under the table? You can’t see facets clearly, just looks grey and gloopy. IRL this translates into gloopy sparkle… Under jeweller’s lights this stone will look great, but in less favourable lighting environments it won’t spark sizzle or flash nearly as much as another stone with facets that look crisp.

#2 - in the face forward there really isn’t any mush at all face-up! Pretty dang good. And you have to tilt a lot before you start to see mush. Pretty dang good.
(Only pretty dang good because it’s got a touch more obstruction than I’d like to see, ideally - a little more black in the under-table area than ideal. The black is the stone reflecting the camera directly in front of it, some obstruction is good but too much will make the stone look black when you lean in close or bend over it at close range…)

#3 - it’s okay. There’s a little bit of mush face-up and it’ll only get more mushy as you tilt. But it’s far from terrible.


Ditto Karl, video will show a lot more if you can get one Fancy shapes can be unpredictable, sometimes you start seeing mush at very small tilt and sometimes you’re good for several degrees, but it’s (oddly!) not super guess-able from the face-up.

Your selection def doesn’t have any obstruction issues so the q is if it stays not-mushy through reasonable tilt

Thank you for making the examples larger and extrapolating... I'm saving this post. It's so informative! I'm going to be staring at this diamond for hours when I get it home, and my family's going to ask what the hell I'm doing. "I'm looking for a mushy tilt, damn it!"

 

[yssie]

Thank you for making the examples larger and extrapolating... I'm saving this post. It's so informative! I'm going to be staring at this diamond for hours when I get it home, and my family's going to ask what the hell I'm doing. "I'm looking for a mushy tilt, damn it!"

Actually I have a sneaking suspicion they’re used to you scrutinizing gemstone videos and won’t so much as bat an eyelash

 

[Karl_K]

Isn't it always that way! Thank you. Hey how is your (I believe) neuropathy? Are you managing the pain ok?

lol yes it works that way a lot.
One of my haunts had a ruby ring come in and I went to look at it, came home with a 4 peaks amethyst that has had me hooked on them ever since.

I'v got compressed nerves in my neck and its been a nightmare getting anything done about it.
Mostly I'm just putting up with the pain because I don't like the pain meds.

 

[Autumn in New England]

Actually I have a sneaking suspicion they’re used to you scrutinizing gemstone videos and won’t so much as bat an eyelash

We have a running joke that now, whenever I begin to ask a question about literally anything, folks scatter screaming "I like them both!! Ahhhhhhhhh save yourselves!!"

 

[yssie]

We have a running joke that now, whenever I begin to ask a question about literally anything, folks scatter screaming "I like them both!! Ahhhhhhhhh save yourselves!!"

Ah, they’re optimists - that’s probably better than “they’re all sorry and I like none”?

Which is honestly where I personally end up the vast majority of the time. Thank goodness for my piggy bank.

Anyway, I’m going off topic - share what you decide!

 

[Autumn in New England]

lol yes it works that way a lot.
One of my haunts had a ruby ring come in and I went to look at it, came home with a 4 peaks amethyst that has had me hooked on them ever since.

I'v got compressed nerves in my neck and its been a nightmare getting anything done about it.
Mostly I'm just putting up with the pain because I don't like the pain meds.

Oh dear... I'm so sorry to hear that. Obviously, I'm sure you've already asked your doctors every question under the sun, but can they release the nerves or is that a major procedure for the neck? I hate all manner of meds too, so I feel you. Best wishes for brighter, pain-free days ahead, Karl.

 

[Autumn in New England]

Ah, they’re optimists - that’s probably better than “they’re all sorry and I like none”?

I hadn't thought of it that way! But the little bastards know they'll get away faster by placating me.

 

[Karl_K]

Oh dear... I'm so sorry to hear that. Obviously, I'm sure you've already asked your doctors every question under the sun, but can they release the nerves or is that a major procedure for the neck? I hate all manner of meds too, so I feel you. Best wishes for brighter, pain-free days ahead, Karl.

If I was in better health they would have scheduled surgery already, trying to try injections first to see if they help any.
Running into road block after road block on it.
I call and it moves one step then nothing more.
I can't got on the standard assembly line is a problem I have a lot. Once its something different the system falls apart.
Anyway enough about me and thank you for the kind words :}

 

[Autumn in New England]

If I was in better health they would have scheduled surgery already, trying to try injections first to see if they help any.
Running into road block after road block on it.
I call and it moves one step then nothing more.
I can't got on the standard assembly line is a problem I have a lot. Once its something different the system falls apart.
Anyway enough about me and thank you for the kind words :}

Sending you healing thoughts, my friend. I'll check back in if I have any luck with the diamond. Maybe you, Yssie, and others can offer opinions on my own pix/vids. Until then! Thanks again for your assistance!!

 

[Autumn in New England]

@yssie - I nixed this purchase, after becoming increasingly concerned about all of the tiny (but DARK) crystals being eye visible close up. I think that stone was on the low end of VS2. Decided to, sigh, up my budget to a much cleaner VS1 (E color came along with it, though I was fine with F). Also, this time we have an ideal cut over excellent cut, and faint fluorescence (instead of medium), which also makes me feel a bit better. It's about the same size and this time 2.02ct. I've requested more info on the diamond, so I'd like to post photos and videos if you're willing to, once again, lend me your expertise. I didn't see any "mush," but I'd like your input. lol Many thanks in advance! I'd, of course, appreciate anyone else's opinions, as well (@Karl_K)!! I can see we have a lot of heart diamond lovers here.

 

[Karl_K]

Send me a @ ping when you have the pics/info posted and I will be happy to check them out for you!

 

[yssie]

It's actually lucky, Karl has a bit more leeway with unusual shapes because so few other people are comfy with them - so you get his extra-expert opinion

 

[Autumn in New England]

@yssie and @Karl_K Hope I'm not driving you both crazy... Please forget the other diamond I mentioned. By the next morning, it was gone. So I narrowed it down to these 2 (and saved the pages this time before they were pulled).

The differences in color and clarity (and price) are negligible. It was a tough decision, but ultimately I felt this one had a better cut.

2.03 Carat heart diamond

2.03 Carat heart diamond

www.jamesallen.com

I still have this one on hold just in case... it has zero "mush" under the table's perimeter, which I liked. But it does have a touch in the middle, and that gave me pause. What do you guys think?

2.01 Carat heart diamond

2.01 Carat heart diamond

www.jamesallen.com

 

[Karl_K]

2.01 is better based on the video, its a long shot but ask for ASET images.

 

[yssie]

I like the 2.03 better. the facet size seems more evenly distributed, which my eyes prefer, personally. As in... the facets all over the stone face-up are a bit more similarly sized. vs. the 2.01, which to me has more "bigger" facets in the top half with the bulges and more teeny tiny facets in the bottom half near the tip, theres almost a line of demarcation from #BiggerFacetArea to #TinyFacetArea... but 2.01 does better than 2.03 on slight tilt, objectively.

(2.03 on right)




Here's another sort. very different faceting - very chunky. (could use a V prong or something at the tip to hide that small area of mushiness). If this type has any appeal. The faceted girdle is really helping this specific one, it would have a wretched fish eye if it wasn't for that thick and faceted girdle

2.01 Carat heart diamond

This heart shaped 2.01 carat D color vs2 clarity has a diamond grading report from GIA

www.jamesallen.com

 

[Autumn in New England]

I appreciate the insight, guys! @yssie Yes, I see exactly what you mean. Also, did you notice the table on the 2.01 is higher up near the cleft. So the crown facet portion near the point of the stone is rather disproportionate (wide)? It just adds to the uneven look to me. I've been staring at these 2 stones for so long, my eyes are going cross.

The entire look of the 2.03 is more pleasing to my eyes (once I uncross them). But, as you and @Karl_K pointed out, the 2.01 edges out the 2.03 in terms of tilt. Yssie, I can see why you like the look of the chunky facets in the stone you suggested. I bet it has great sparkle through the table in person.

This isn't a huge purchase, as diamonds go, but I'd like to get it right. I have a sort of special project in mind for this guy. Should I let the 2.03 ship or give the 2.01 more thought? JA has free returns.

Sincerest thanks again...

 

[Autumn in New England]

P.S. I got shut down pretty quickly when I asked for the ASETs. lol Not sure why... I've seen them elsewhere for heart and fancy shapes.