Color Change Sapphire from Richard Wise

[septemberbaby]

Wow! A lot of responses... (thanks for all of them)

We are not experienced buyers, but I WOULD say that I''m extremely picky about color. Something that also makes me more difficult is that while I''m particular about color, I like different colors and I do not necessarily have my heart set on something ultra-specific. So, in the B&M stores, I can very easily tell what I do not like. I have seen a couple stones that I did like, one being a Kashmir stone at Harry Winston in a $365k ring. (Throughout all of this my boyfriend has been great, trying to learn as much as possible, and relishing in the fact that we''re doing something different from the norm.)

The main reason I was scared about the stone is that we''d been working with a jewelry consultant in another state. She came highly recommended from a friend who''d had a custom e-ring built through her, as well as purchasing other pieces. While their ring did turn out great, we quickly found out the jewelry consultant''s lack of experience with colored stones was not going to work for us. We''d given descriptions of what we were looking for and she eventually found us a Stuller stone. In the picture, it looked promising, but that''s another lesson - pictures can lie. We were excited about the stone but in the end, it came, and while I could see why one might call it beautiful, I did not care for it all. We paid way too much money to ship it back and forth, and were a bit soured on the process.

Since then we''ve looked at many many (including the Kashmir) more stones, and have a better idea of what to look for, what to be wary of, etc. We are serious buyers with a fairly healthy budget, but it''s still scary, what with this being a large purchase, both monetarily and symbolically.

Seeing Richard''s 48-hr return policy makes me feel much better, though. I think I can tell nearly immediately if a stone is right for me, if it''s okay, or if it''s just absolutely wrong. Thanks again for the responses/help, and please don''t give Richard a difficult time, as he''s clarified his return policy for the sale. He''s also been great with answering questions from my boyfriend...

I''ll let you all know what we decide to do. We''re taking a quick trip to Pala tomorrow morning to make sure we see our options before making a decision.

 

[PrecisionGem]

A few comments.

Gemwizard: While the concept seem pretty good, the main problem is the monitor the person is using. I have dual screens at my office and each one looks drastically different. In the gem shop at home I have a 27 Mac, that is much much much more accurate. So if I were to match a stone to a Gemwizard color on the Mac, it wouldn''t be the correct color on my work monitor.

Photographing Color Change: I gave trying this, it''s very hard. Most vendors are taking one photo, and then using a program like Photoshop and altering the color to look like what they perceive the color change is. Not sure how everyone feels about this, and not really sure how I do. Most photos I see that are trying to show a color change stone, are not at all correctly color balanced, if they were, the color change wouldn''t be any where near as dramatic. Look as most garnet photo''s, the daylight one will have a blue tint to the background, and the incandescent will be almost red. You either need to trust the vendor, or see the stone in person.

 

[chrono]

A few other things to consider:
1. Is 48 hours sufficient time to line up an independent appraiser with the right skill set to evaluate such a high priced item, not to mention a very important e-ring stone?
2. I see that the gem comes with a highly reputable AGTA lab memo but as I am not totally familiar with it, can anyone clarify why AGTA did not note the sapphire as a colour shift/change sapphire since it is advertised as a colour change sapphire?
3. The disclaimer “not as represented” is highly subjective. See this thread about another PSer’s experience with one of Richard’s stones: https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/blue-spinel.139870/

 

[T L]

Date: 7/2/2010 12:01:11 AM
Author: PrecisionGem
A few comments.


Gemwizard: While the concept seem pretty good, the main problem is the monitor the person is using. I have dual screens at my office and each one looks drastically different. In the gem shop at home I have a 27 Mac, that is much much much more accurate. So if I were to match a stone to a Gemwizard color on the Mac, it wouldn't be the correct color on my work monitor.


Photographing Color Change: I gave trying this, it's very hard. Most vendors are taking one photo, and then using a program like Photoshop and altering the color to look like what they perceive the color change is. Not sure how everyone feels about this, and not really sure how I do. Most photos I see that are trying to show a color change stone, are not at all correctly color balanced, if they were, the color change wouldn't be any where near as dramatic. Look as most garnet photo's, the daylight one will have a blue tint to the background, and the incandescent will be almost red. You either need to trust the vendor, or see the stone in person.

Gene, it's not just the monitor. Some people cannot see secondary colors or modifiers, even if they are in the trade. For example, one vendor told me that a spessartite was an O 4/5 which is an orange hue of medium light tone and strong saturation. When I got the stone, it was definitely yellowish and even had brown in it, or a yO 4/3. I have noticed that many vendors that sell through gemewizard's site also seem to attribute higher saturations to the gems than the tool gives them credit for. In the end, I suppose I'm really picky as to what I think vivid color is, therefore, I think it's abused. Sorry to say that, but that's reality. Many vendors do often try to make a stone sound much better than it really is.

 

[Gailey]

Date: 7/1/2010 11:38:32 PM
Author: septemberbaby
Wow! A lot of responses... (thanks for all of them)

We are not experienced buyers, but I WOULD say that I''m extremely picky about color. Something that also makes me more difficult is that while I''m particular about color, I like different colors and I do not necessarily have my heart set on something ultra-specific. So, in the B&M stores, I can very easily tell what I do not like. I have seen a couple stones that I did like, one being a Kashmir stone at Harry Winston in a $365k ring. (Throughout all of this my boyfriend has been great, trying to learn as much as possible, and relishing in the fact that we''re doing something different from the norm.)

The main reason I was scared about the stone is that we''d been working with a jewelry consultant in another state. She came highly recommended from a friend who''d had a custom e-ring built through her, as well as purchasing other pieces. While their ring did turn out great, we quickly found out the jewelry consultant''s lack of experience with colored stones was not going to work for us. We''d given descriptions of what we were looking for and she eventually found us a Stuller stone. In the picture, it looked promising, but that''s another lesson - pictures can lie. We were excited about the stone but in the end, it came, and while I could see why one might call it beautiful, I did not care for it all. We paid way too much money to ship it back and forth, and were a bit soured on the process.

Since then we''ve looked at many many (including the Kashmir) more stones, and have a better idea of what to look for, what to be wary of, etc. We are serious buyers with a fairly healthy budget, but it''s still scary, what with this being a large purchase, both monetarily and symbolically.

Seeing Richard''s 48-hr return policy makes me feel much better, though. I think I can tell nearly immediately if a stone is right for me, if it''s okay, or if it''s just absolutely wrong. Thanks again for the responses/help, and please don''t give Richard a difficult time, as he''s clarified his return policy for the sale. He''s also been great with answering questions from my boyfriend...

I''ll let you all know what we decide to do. We''re taking a quick trip to Pala tomorrow morning to make sure we see our options before making a decision.

Congratulations on your forthcoming engagement and welcome to Pricescope.

You will find lots of very knowledgeable coloured stone consultants here only too willing to help you find the right stone.

Lisa Elser has a 4.75 colour shift umber sapphire listed right now.

 

[brandy_z28]

Date: 7/2/2010 9:08:52 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 7/2/2010 12:01:11 AM
Author: PrecisionGem
A few comments.


Gemwizard: While the concept seem pretty good, the main problem is the monitor the person is using. I have dual screens at my office and each one looks drastically different. In the gem shop at home I have a 27 Mac, that is much much much more accurate. So if I were to match a stone to a Gemwizard color on the Mac, it wouldn''t be the correct color on my work monitor.


Photographing Color Change: I gave trying this, it''s very hard. Most vendors are taking one photo, and then using a program like Photoshop and altering the color to look like what they perceive the color change is. Not sure how everyone feels about this, and not really sure how I do. Most photos I see that are trying to show a color change stone, are not at all correctly color balanced, if they were, the color change wouldn''t be any where near as dramatic. Look as most garnet photo''s, the daylight one will have a blue tint to the background, and the incandescent will be almost red. You either need to trust the vendor, or see the stone in person.

Gene, it''s not just the monitor. Some people cannot see secondary colors or modifiers, even if they are in the trade. For example, one vendor told me that a spessartite was an O 4/5 which is an orange hue of medium light tone and strong saturation. When I got the stone, it was definitely yellowish and even had brown in it, or a yO 4/3. I have noticed that many vendors that sell through gemewizard''s site also seem to attribute higher saturations to the gems than the tool gives them credit for. In the end, I suppose I''m really picky as to what I think vivid color is, therefore, I think it''s abused. Sorry to say that, but that''s reality. Many vendors do often try to make a stone sound much better than it really is.

I''m going to go out on a limb here and say that we all see colors differently. My husband had no idea he was colorblind and I didn''t either until we were picking tomatoes in our garden.

I know colorblindness isn''t what we''re talking about but the colors that I see are totally different than the colors that he sees.

 

[Sagebrush]

All,

Without beating about the bush let me say that, in my opinion, relying on Gem-e-wizard or any online color chart is grading by cartoon. Gene's point is well taken. We all know that every monitor is different. Sorry, but there are no real shortcuts when it comes to the appreciation and grading the subtle nuances of color particularly in the higher reaches of gemstone quality.

I use the best photographers in the world and the photos often do not convey what the eye sees. Do not rely on images!!!!!

Best,

 

[T L]

Date: 7/2/2010 10:14:54 AM
Author: Richard W. Wise
All,

Without beating about the bush let me say that, in my opinion, relying on Gem-e-wizard or any online color chart is grading by cartoon. Gene''s point is well taken. We all know that every monitor is different. Sorry, but there are no real shortcuts when it comes to the appreciation and grading the subtle nuances of color particularly in the higher reaches of gemstone quality.

I use the best photographers in the world and the photos often do not convey what the eye sees. Do not rely on images!!!!!

Best,

Richard, if you use the best phtographers in the world, I suggest you let them take more images, or put additional images of those stones on your website. Photography is very very important, even though you may not think it''s 100% accurate, in the online business it is essential to have lots of photographs. I prefer shopping with vendors that procure many photos of a gem, and I appreciate this as well.

However, even though you do use excellent photographers, I have to say I''m overly impressed with what some people here, on this site, can do with a simple point and shoot camera. In the end, great photographers, or no, the more photos the better. I even recommend that some vendors provide videos of the stones, because I think that even conveys more accuracy than a static photo.

Just some helpful hints from a collector/consumer.

 

[chrono]

Date: 7/2/2010 10:14:54 AM
Author: Richard W. Wise
All,

Without beating about the bush let me say that, in my opinion, relying on Gem-e-wizard or any online color chart is grading by cartoon. Gene''s point is well taken. We all know that every monitor is different. Sorry, but there are no real shortcuts when it comes to the appreciation and grading the subtle nuances of color particularly in the higher reaches of gemstone quality.

I use the best photographers in the world and the photos often do not convey what the eye sees. Do not rely on images!!!!!

Best,

If we are advised not to rely on images, even from the best photographers in the world, then how can you expect anyone to purchase any stone sight unseen in addition to a very limited return and refund policy?

 

[arjunajane]

Date: 7/2/2010 10:51:08 AM
Author: Chrono

Date: 7/2/2010 10:14:54 AM

Author: Richard W. Wise

All,


Without beating about the bush let me say that, in my opinion, relying on Gem-e-wizard or any online color chart is grading by cartoon. Gene''s point is well taken. We all know that every monitor is different. Sorry, but there are no real shortcuts when it comes to the appreciation and grading the subtle nuances of color particularly in the higher reaches of gemstone quality.


I use the best photographers in the world and the photos often do not convey what the eye sees. Do not rely on images!!!!!



Best,

If we are advised not to rely on images, even from the best photographers in the world, then how can you expect anyone to purchase any stone sight unseen in addition to a very limited return and refund policy?

I am also interested in the answer to this.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 7/2/2010 10:40:30 AM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 7/2/2010 10:14:54 AM
Author: Richard W. Wise
All,

Without beating about the bush let me say that, in my opinion, relying on Gem-e-wizard or any online color chart is grading by cartoon. Gene''s point is well taken. We all know that every monitor is different. Sorry, but there are no real shortcuts when it comes to the appreciation and grading the subtle nuances of color particularly in the higher reaches of gemstone quality.

I use the best photographers in the world and the photos often do not convey what the eye sees. Do not rely on images!!!!!

Best,

Richard, if you use the best phtographers in the world, I suggest you let them take more images, or put additional images of those stones on your website. Photography is very very important, even though you may not think it''s 100% accurate, in the online business it is essential to have lots of photographs. I prefer shopping with vendors that procure many photos of a gem, and I appreciate this as well.

However, even though you do use excellent photographers, I have to say I''m overly impressed with what some people here, on this site, can do with a simple point and shoot camera. In the end, great photographers, or no, the more photos the better. I even recommend that some vendors provide videos of the stones, because I think that even conveys more accuracy than a static photo.

Just some helpful hints from a collector/consumer.

and perhaps the potential buyer/collector/consumer should be expected to pay for those additional pictures. i''m sure its not inexpensive and any buyer/collector/consumer would be willing to pay more.

personally, i think a business owner has the right to set his/her own business practices and i either accept them or move onto another vendor.

i have also noticed a trend here at pricescope....and not just in this thread....for we participants to presume to tell vendors how they should be operating. perhaps this is a contributing factor in some vendors no longer being willing to set our own sourced stones and/or settings.

mz

 

[PrecisionGem]

This is an interesting thread, and I think it brings up a few points for discussion.

Someone mentioned the need for a longer period of time so that they could take the stone out to be evaluated or appraised. Is that something that is commonly done? If so why? I would think if the answer is yes, it''s because you don''t trust the person you are buying from. Only the buyer can decide if they like the stone or not. An expert can tell you if it meets certain trade set criteria, but only can decide if you like it. If you trust the dealer you are buying from, then a garnet will be a garnet, and a sapphire a sapphire. Now if I were to buy from a some Thai eBay dealer, and pay a few thousand dollars for a stone, I''d want to test it to make sure it was what it was claimed to be. If I were buying from a trusted source, I wouldn''t. If you go into to Cartier in NYC to buy a watch, and buy a Santos De Cartier Balbee watch, do you ask for 2 weeks to take it to a watch maker to get it certified as an authentic watch? What if you bought one on the off the street on Canal street for $25, would you then want to have it certified, or just assume it''s fake?

As far as the pictures go, I think one accurate one is better than a whole slew of color enhanced ones, including a video. On most of the eBay auctions I see with video''s and several shots, they still never shoot the stone straight on so can see how bad the window is.

While I don''t buy cut stones, I do buy many rough stones from pictures or even just descriptions. I never really know what I''m getting until I have the stone in my hand. It never takes me more than a few minutes to decide if I''m keeping it or returning it.

 

[movie zombie]

Date: 7/1/2010 11:38:32 PM
Author: septemberbaby
Wow! A lot of responses... (thanks for all of them)

We are not experienced buyers, but I WOULD say that I''m extremely picky about color. Something that also makes me more difficult is that while I''m particular about color, I like different colors and I do not necessarily have my heart set on something ultra-specific. So, in the B&M stores, I can very easily tell what I do not like. I have seen a couple stones that I did like, one being a Kashmir stone at Harry Winston in a $365k ring. (Throughout all of this my boyfriend has been great, trying to learn as much as possible, and relishing in the fact that we''re doing something different from the norm.)

The main reason I was scared about the stone is that we''d been working with a jewelry consultant in another state. She came highly recommended from a friend who''d had a custom e-ring built through her, as well as purchasing other pieces. While their ring did turn out great, we quickly found out the jewelry consultant''s lack of experience with colored stones was not going to work for us. We''d given descriptions of what we were looking for and she eventually found us a Stuller stone. In the picture, it looked promising, but that''s another lesson - pictures can lie. We were excited about the stone but in the end, it came, and while I could see why one might call it beautiful, I did not care for it all. We paid way too much money to ship it back and forth, and were a bit soured on the process.

Since then we''ve looked at many many (including the Kashmir) more stones, and have a better idea of what to look for, what to be wary of, etc. We are serious buyers with a fairly healthy budget, but it''s still scary, what with this being a large purchase, both monetarily and symbolically.

Seeing Richard''s 48-hr return policy makes me feel much better, though. I think I can tell nearly immediately if a stone is right for me, if it''s okay, or if it''s just absolutely wrong. Thanks again for the responses/help, and please don''t give Richard a difficult time, as he''s clarified his return policy for the sale. He''s also been great with answering questions from my boyfriend...

I''ll let you all know what we decide to do. We''re taking a quick trip to Pala tomorrow morning to make sure we see our options before making a decision.

good. this is another high end vendor of quality color stones......and with high prices to match. however, you are paying for their "eye" and for an e-ring and as a novice, this is $ well spent whether with pala or richard.

mz

 

[chrono]

Gene,
As always preached here, trust but verify. I do not believe in blind trust; even the very most experienced vendor can be fooled but as long as it is corrected, I have no issues. I’m sure most posters know what I am alluding to. Also, the more expensive the item in question, the more the reason to have the item evaluated or appraised. Yes, a garnet is a garnet and a sapphire is a sapphire but will the novice be skilled and knowledgeable enough to discern the nuanced differences between a very fine blue sapphire and a super fine blue sapphire without any example to compare to on hand? Your example of a watch doesn’t apply as they are somewhat mass produced by man. Gems are created by nature and as such, there are rarely two identical gemstones. The issue at hand isn’t if it is a fake but to gauge the quality.

MZ,
I agree with you that the consumer should vote with their wallets. If we disagree with the business policies set by any vendor, we are free to spend our dollars elsewhere.

 

[T L]

Date: 7/2/2010 12:52:24 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
This is an interesting thread, and I think it brings up a few points for discussion.

Someone mentioned the need for a longer period of time so that they could take the stone out to be evaluated or appraised. Is that something that is commonly done? If so why? I would think if the answer is yes, it's because you don't trust the person you are buying from. Only the buyer can decide if they like the stone or not. An expert can tell you if it meets certain trade set criteria, but only can decide if you like it. If you trust the dealer you are buying from, then a garnet will be a garnet, and a sapphire a sapphire. Now if I were to buy from a some Thai eBay dealer, and pay a few thousand dollars for a stone, I'd want to test it to make sure it was what it was claimed to be. If I were buying from a trusted source, I wouldn't. If you go into to Cartier in NYC to buy a watch, and buy a Santos De Cartier Balbee watch, do you ask for 2 weeks to take it to a watch maker to get it certified as an authentic watch? What if you bought one on the off the street on Canal street for $25, would you then want to have it certified, or just assume it's fake?

As far as the pictures go, I think one accurate one is better than a whole slew of color enhanced ones, including a video. On most of the eBay auctions I see with video's and several shots, they still never shoot the stone straight on so can see how bad the window is.

While I don't buy cut stones, I do buy many rough stones from pictures or even just descriptions. I never really know what I'm getting until I have the stone in my hand. It never takes me more than a few minutes to decide if I'm keeping it or returning it.

Yes, but there's a big difference between a highly treated low quality gem vs a fine untreated one. You can't compare buying colored gems to watches or even cars, because they are so incredibly unique and there are way too many variables to consider when buying within a gem species.

There's another point I would like to make here, not so much to your post Gene, but just in general:
I have a dealer that I really like, everyone knows who he is, Tan from Odysseygem. However, if he has a pitiful gem or one that I think is not worth the price, I'll be one of the first people to say so if someone wants an opinion on it. I think there needs to be some neutrality here for trusted vendors in this forum and you shouldn't just accept a gem is fine just because it comes from a particular dealer. You can trust that dealer, but to say that everything they have is perfect and wonderful, is a bit unrealistic. I've seen that stated before in this forum, and I'm not just talking about this thread. The fact of the matter is that not even the legendary Harry Winston has all fabulous gems. I can recommend Harry Winston for example, but I think it's best for a consumer to shop around at multiple vendors with good reputations. Several have already been mentioned in this thread.

No matter who you shop from, the most important thing is to educate yourself on what makes a fine sapphire or any particular gem, all possible treatments on that gem, reputable labs and what they can test for because understanding treatment IMHO is just as important as shopping for the gem, and to see some fine examples in person (at a museum, upscale store, or where ever). It's also important to understand acceptable price points for certain qualities.

 

[LD]

Gene - in answer to your question, would I send a newly acquired gemstone to an appraiser if the selling price were $1,000? Probably not. $5,000 - yes probably and most definitely for purchases above that.

Richard - you have told us not to rely on images. I completely agree and I''ll tell you why! I see grey in the profile photos of the gem that the OP is considering. I also note your comments on the gemstones colour and it doesn''t say anything about grey. So, for me, this is now a quandry if I were considering buying it. Would I take the risk and make a rather large investment, sight unseen without the ability to return unless damaged or not as described? No. However, if this gemstone was under $1000, yes probably.

Septemberbaby - I''m glad that you''re exploring all avenues. You''ve obviously done much research and I absolutely 100% agree that colour is either a "OMG this HAS to be mine" or it''s a "Ohhhhhhh no" moment! For such a very special ring you must definitely get one that makes your world spin! Since this is a considerable purchase and for such a wonderful event I wonder if your future intended might want to speak to Richard to see if he would allow you to return within 48 hours if the gemstone doesn''t have the "OMG" factor?

 

[LD]

Date: 7/2/2010 1:50:23 PM
Author: tourmaline_lover

Date: 7/2/2010 12:52:24 PM
Author: PrecisionGem
This is an interesting thread, and I think it brings up a few points for discussion.

Someone mentioned the need for a longer period of time so that they could take the stone out to be evaluated or appraised. Is that something that is commonly done? If so why? I would think if the answer is yes, it's because you don't trust the person you are buying from. Only the buyer can decide if they like the stone or not. An expert can tell you if it meets certain trade set criteria, but only can decide if you like it. If you trust the dealer you are buying from, then a garnet will be a garnet, and a sapphire a sapphire. Now if I were to buy from a some Thai eBay dealer, and pay a few thousand dollars for a stone, I'd want to test it to make sure it was what it was claimed to be. If I were buying from a trusted source, I wouldn't. If you go into to Cartier in NYC to buy a watch, and buy a Santos De Cartier Balbee watch, do you ask for 2 weeks to take it to a watch maker to get it certified as an authentic watch? What if you bought one on the off the street on Canal street for $25, would you then want to have it certified, or just assume it's fake?

As far as the pictures go, I think one accurate one is better than a whole slew of color enhanced ones, including a video. On most of the eBay auctions I see with video's and several shots, they still never shoot the stone straight on so can see how bad the window is.

While I don't buy cut stones, I do buy many rough stones from pictures or even just descriptions. I never really know what I'm getting until I have the stone in my hand. It never takes me more than a few minutes to decide if I'm keeping it or returning it.

Yes, but there's a big difference between a highly treated low quality gem vs a fine untreated one. You can't compare buying colored gems to watches or even cars, because they are so incredibly unique and there are way too many variables to consider when buying within a gem species.

There's another point I would like to make here, not so much to your post Gene, but just in general:
I have a dealer that I really like, everyone knows who he is, Tan from Odysseygem. However, if he has a pitiful gem or one that I think is not worth the price, I'll be one of the first people to say so if someone wants an opinion on it. I think there needs to be some neutrality here for trusted vendors in this forum and you shouldn't just accept a gem is fine just because it comes from a particular dealer. You can trust that dealer, but to say that everything they have is perfect and wonderful, is a bit unrealistic. I've seen that stated before in this forum, and I'm not just talking about this thread. The fact of the matter is that not even the legendary Harry Winston has all fabulous gems. I can recommend Harry Winston for example, but I think it's best for a consumer to shop around at multiple vendors with good reputations. Several have already been mentioned in this thread.

No matter who you shop from, the most important thing is to educate yourself on what makes a fine sapphire or any particular gem, all possible treatments on that gem, reputable labs and what they can test for because understanding treatment IMHO is just as important as shopping for the gem, and to see some fine examples in person (at a museum, upscale store, or where ever).

TL - you and I were posting at the same time. Thank you thank you thank you for posting what I was too reluctant to do so!

I'm very glad that you've raised this subject because I too see a lack of neutrality in some instances and it saddens me greatly. If I were a new member of this forum, I'd prefer to see the good and the challenges also.

 

[T L]

To the OP, here's a site that sells nice sapphires. I have not purchased from them, but I heard good things from others that have. With any sapphire vendor, make sure it comes with a reputable laboratory certificate from GIA, GIT, GRS, AGTA, SSEF, or AGL and that it lists all possible treatments. Never accept an in house appraisal, lab certificate.

http://www.kashmirblue.com/

 

[PrecisionGem]

Date: 7/2/2010 1:10:09 PM
Author: Chrono
Gene,

As always preached here, trust but verify. I do not believe in blind trust; even the very most experienced vendor can be fooled but as long as it is corrected, I have no issues. I’m sure most posters know what I am alluding to. Also, the more expensive the item in question, the more the reason to have the item evaluated or appraised. Yes, a garnet is a garnet and a sapphire is a sapphire but will the novice be skilled and knowledgeable enough to discern the nuanced differences between a very fine blue sapphire and a super fine blue sapphire without any example to compare to on hand? Your example of a watch doesn’t apply as they are somewhat mass produced by man. Gems are created by nature and as such, there are rarely two identical gemstones. The issue at hand isn’t if it is a fake but to gauge the quality.


MZ,

I agree with you that the consumer should vote with their wallets. If we disagree with the business policies set by any vendor, we are free to spend our dollars elsewhere.

Well, there is a difference with taking a stone to a lab for verification, and going to an appraiser and get $$$ attached to it. My example of the watch was not to see what it was worth, but if it was real or not. The same with a stone.

As far as an appraisal goes, I there are different types and this is a rather subjective thing. Take the same stone to 4 different "experts" and you will get 4 different prices. I see JTV showing appraisals all the time, yet the sell the stone for 1/4 the price or less of the appraisal. What''s the value of the appraisal? Are you intending to sell the stone, and if so, do you think you will get the value stated? Is it to make you feel good that you got "a good deal". I have had several done of my stones over the years, and they always came back way way more than I could ever sell the stone for. It seemed pretty silly and I quit doing it.

Isn''t the bottom line.... do you like the stone? So my point was, as long as you bought a stone that the dealer told you was a natural sapphire, and it tests out to be one, and you like how the stone looks, you''re happy right? Do you really need someone else to tell you, "this is top gem color". It may be a color you just don''t like.

As far as buying a stone, then a week or two or more having it tested at a lab, and it turns out to be a fake, or miss identified, I would think that any decent dealer would refund you. I know I would, even if you bought the stone 5 years ago. But if you bought a stone, then a year latter you meet TL at the mall, she tells you she sees grey in it, and previously you were very happy with it, well then I think you really ought to keep it.

 

[chrono]

I would do both; verify that it is indeed what it is AND get a valuation attached to it. There are many different kinds of appraisers and appraisals. Yes, many are inflated and some have no idea what they are doing, which is why finding the right independent appraiser with the right skill set is crucial. Not to get an inflated price but a realistic valuation. What is the point of paying 2X more than what it is worth? Would you? I know I wouldn’t. For a vendor to supply an appraisal seems like a conflict of interest and potentially biased; it should be done by a third party chosen by the prospective buyer.

Sure, the bottom line is whether the buyer likes the stone. But equally important, is the buyer paying a fair price? Just as an ugly stone can be a good deal if very inexpensive, the reverse can be true for a top gem if it is overpriced. And how does one know if the gem is priced fairly or overpriced without a lot of knowledge and experience? How does one know it is truly a top gem and not just a fine gem without the assistance of this skilled independent appraiser? While we are discussing appraisers, this is why I always recommend Richard Sherwood as he provides a very comprehensive report together with different valuations; one for wholesale pricing, one for retail pricing and also one for true replacement pricing. He does not do the “feel good” over inflated appraisals.

Obviously, if someone has kept the stone for a year, it is clearly unreasonable to even consider requesting a refund. I doubt most people can get an appraisal appointment within 24 hours, at least not the good ones I know who do comprehensive reviews.

As for the gray part, that''s why it''s good to hire an independent set of highly trained eyes to spot the gray before it is too late to return the stone.

 

[LD]

Just expanding on Chrono's post above .............

Would you buy a gemstone and commit to keeping it, without seeing it if you were paying, say, $20,000?
Would you buy a car and commit to keeping it. without seeing it if you were paying, say, $20,000?

No of course you wouldn't. It's plainly stupid. It doesn't matter how trustworthy the Vendor may/may not be.

In this gemstone's case, there is the Certificate from a highly reputable lab so there are assurances about treatments etc. However, Reports don't (a) tell you how it compares to others on the market (b) if what you paid is a fair price and (c) that you'll like it. It takes away some of the uncertainty but not others. If I'm spending a good deal of money, I want those assurances also.

I take your point that Appraisers come in all guises but if you're spending a great deal of money (to you) then you'd almost certainly have done your research and have an Appraiser lined up! I don't know if it works like this in the US but in the UK, good appraisals give you a written document normally with a photograph of the gem and a replacement value for insurance purposes.

Even though I'm experienced in gem buying, I will still get second opinions. I may not agree (and if I love the stone then I ignore everything else) BUT I still listen and for important purchases I would most definitely take my gem to a reputable appraiser.

Oh and by the way, I'd rather have TL telling me that there was grey in my stone in case I hadn't actually "seen" it for myself. Two sets of eyes are always better than one!

 

[T L]

Date: 7/2/2010 3:32:39 PM
Author: PrecisionGem


Isn't the bottom line.... do you like the stone? So my point was, as long as you bought a stone that the dealer told you was a natural sapphire, and it tests out to be one, and you like how the stone looks, you're happy right? Do you really need someone else to tell you, 'this is top gem color'. It may be a color you just don't like.

Gene,
Yes, if I was a novice gem collector, I would like an expert opinion. Do you have any idea how many ugly gems I have bought during my collecting years?? I have wasted so much $$$ and if I only had someone tell me that a gem, which I thought was great at the time, was a dud, I would have saved a lot of $$$. What is the purpose of this forum and education if we just buy what we like without asking for other opinions? You can choose to ignore opinions, but for those that ask for them, they should be happy that there are people on this forum and elsewhere helping them make a smart purchase. If someone is spending thousands, well, this applies even more. I definitely would want other opinions and a lab report from the AGL which provides the quality of color based on their large database. That piece of paper can help people research auction values for quality and color, and hopefully give an idea of the value, and it's beneficial to a QUALIFIED appraiser, who is familiar with the gemstone in question.

ETA: As for my seeing grey everywhere, the grey is a result of a cool colored gem that lacks some degree of saturation of color, and unfortunately, most cool gems have some amount of grey unless they have vivid saturation. I expect some grey in a lower priced gem, or one that is even decent, but not top top color. The prices on vivid gems are typically very high because vivid color is very rare in nature, and they have a high pricetag as a result. There's nothing wrong with seeing some grey as long as the stone is not overly grey, especially if you're spending quite a bit. Very grey stones are typically very inexpensive, and that includes very greyish sapphires.

 

[Gailey]

Date: 7/2/2010 10:14:54 AM
Author: Richard W. Wise
All,

Without beating about the bush let me say that, in my opinion, relying on Gem-e-wizard or any online color chart is grading by cartoon. Gene''s point is well taken. We all know that every monitor is different. Sorry, but there are no real shortcuts when it comes to the appreciation and grading the subtle nuances of color particularly in the higher reaches of gemstone quality.

I use the best photographers in the world and the photos often do not convey what the eye sees. Do not rely on images!!!!!

Best,

If I could have a dollar for every gem site I look at, I''d probably be wealthy enough to afford one of these. In my book Jeff Hunt takes some of the best gem photos I have ever seen.

Sapphires by David Dawson and ruby by Roger Dery.

 

[Rockit]

Awww, phooey. This was a very interesting thread. What a shame to loose several days of posts during the PS revamp!

 

[Barrett]

I heard that, rockit..sigh

 

[Sagebrush]

Gailey,

The do have a wonderful quality about them. I have been using Jeff Scovil and Bob Wheldon.

Richard