Casey Anthony trial...

[kenny]

ALL murder is equally bad IMHO.

 

[kenny]

ALL murder is equally bad IMHO.

BTW, I hear a very large percentage of murders happen within the family.
Nothing stirs emotions like family.

 

[Ella]

Last warning everyone. Please act like adults or this thread will be closed.

 

[dragonfly411]

ALL murder is equally bad IMHO.

BTW, I hear a very large percentage of murders happen within the family.
Nothing stirs emotions like family.

Kenny - I agree that all murder is equally bad. I think what makes this topic particularly interesting for people is that in this case a mother led her family, police, and the mass population astray in making it seem like her daughter was missing. Then evidence was presented that really pointed all blame at the mother. For many, the idea of a mother killing her children is more disturbing because many would think of maternal instincts going against that. It is then carried further by the fact that they haven't made any kind of verdict until now. Many murders don't get the coverage because the people weren't reported missing at first as well.

Any life that is ended early because another has taken it upon themselves to kill another is sad and horrible.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

I've stayed out of this one but am growing curious on why it has such legs because IMHO all humans have equal value.
Children and adults.
Female and male.
Cute little girls and ugly old men.
White and black.
Daughters and strangers.

Murders happen all the time.
Every one is equally bad and upsetting, well at least in my book.

Apparently this one gets people here wound up because it was a cute little white girl, and a daughter of the defendant to boot and this forum has many white moms.
This one hits home, but it shouldn't.
Actually all murders should.

I just wonder why every black gang member murdered by some latino gang member doesn't also get 25 pages.

You know, I think the reason--for me, at least--that I latched onto this case was because the victim was so innocent and so young and so sweet, and there is a lot of video of Caylee out there--it's not just pictures of her...she's singing "You Are My Sunshine" and reading her favorite story the day before she died or was last seen. So to watch that and know what happened the very next day? It's heartbreaking, and it's so sad. It's a very emotional case because is so much out there on Caylee.

I don't, obviously, agree with murder--anyone's murder for any reason. And I do feel like every death is sad and unfortunate...but there is something about the loss of child that, I don't know, is a different level of sad.

A gang banger, he or she makes a choice--they run with a certain crowd and surround themselves with violence. But, children, they don't. They don't know enough of the world to make those choices, they're innocent. Their whole world is the people that love them and protect them. They're babies--they can't protect themselves...so when there's a good possibility that child's own mother smothered that child, it's really hard to wrap your mind around.

 

[JewelFreak]

Italia, I agree with you. For about the first week after I read the details of the evidence I was continually haunted, picturing anyone drugging & taping the face of that child (any child) -- let alone her mother. Also the coldness, as in driving around for days with her little girl's body in the car, going about partying as usual.

Maybe it's our attempts to understand this. And how different it is from the worlds most of us exist in. The minds we exist in. Like a car wreck, difficult not to stare.

--- Laurie

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Italia, I agree with you. For about the first week after I read the details of the evidence I was continually haunted, picturing anyone drugging & taping the face of that child (any child) -- let alone her mother. Also the coldness, as in driving around for days with her little girl's body in the car, going about partying as usual.

Maybe it's our attempts to understand this. And how different it is from the worlds most of us exist in. The minds we exist in. Like a car wreck, difficult not to stare.

--- Laurie

I agree. It all felt very cold.

There's this beautiful child, and she's two years old--and she's just starting to have a voice, opinions, feelings, emotions, she's going to start creative play, and make friends. She was getting to a place in her life where she'd be able to communicate things and hang out and be little person who could help and feel big and important...it's an amazing time, that transitional time between two and three.

And I think what really got me about this case, particularly, is I felt that the people who were supposed to protect her above all else failed her when she needed them the most. Her mother...what can you even say about that? Her grandparents, as soon as their daughter was in trouble because Caylee was missing, it was though their focus switched and they so busy protecting her, no one was protecting Caylee. Yeah, they searched for her and I'm sure it was hard on them...but they hid the truth, and spent so much time denying what in front of them, that any chance of any justice was washed away. And then when it all came out--even the fact that Caylee's bones were chewed by animals--they never had that moment of loyalty to their granddaughter to say Caylee deserves justice for what happened to her. They still lied to cover it up.

So who does it fall too? That little girl deserved someone to say "this isn't right"...and be heard without any other motive or gain. So, yeah, every death is horrible and sad--no matter creed or color or sexual preference or affiliation...but generally there is someone on the end to stand up for the lost and let them be counted...and no one really took that role for Caylee Anthony and I think that's why I can't just look away or forget about it or turn it off. Because, even now, there is still no one...her own grandparents have come forward to say "this chapter is closed and they may never know what happened to Caylee but they're moving on"...to me, that's really sad...because you don't hear that a lot. Unsolved murders, the family doesn't give up or close the chapter without some sense of right being done in the honor of the person lost.

 

[JewelFreak]

Oh, Italia, they will never move on. Ever. Ever. Ever. Neither of them will recover from this one -- Cindy may glom onto Casey even tighter to compensate for the emptiness -- especially if, God forbid, she has another kid. The two of them are co-dependent (though if she doesn't need money Casey would drop her mother like an ice cube). George, I'll bet next month's income, will not last long. He knows what happened & I think faces it somewhere in his soul & it will kill him.

What else could they tell their lawyer to say? He can hardly tell the world they're basket cases & are emotionally destroyed. Well, yes, actually, he could, now that I think about it, but not in that family where appearances matter too much.

--- Laurie

ETA: maybe you saw the roommate of Cindy's boyfriend on Drew Pinsky, saying Casey won't move back home because her mother will hound her day & night. "She'll never let it go," he said.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

I think Cindy made the decision long ago that she was going to put everything she had into clearing Casey. Which is why she lied, which is why she sat in the courtroom every day, which is why she was mouthing words to Casey, and still trying to see her--even now.

We've talked about this, so you know what I think and where I stand on the issue of forgiveness. And while the normal thing--the expected thing--would be for Cindy to turn and walk...when does that family ever do "normal"?

Cindy, IMHO, has an ability to compartmentalize things. Very much like Casey does. I think, when they said the chapter was closed, they meant it. Broken though they may be, and they may have loved their granddaughter, Cindy will now cling to what she has and let the rest go. If Casey wanted to go home...she'd make her bed with fresh sheets and hit the grocery store. What happened in the courthouse, that's boxed up now and in the past, I suspect.

George, I do believe, operates on a different wave length. He knows what happened, so on that I agree with you completely. But he doesn't strike me as the type to stand up to Cindy, no matter what.

I don't think it's a matter of what they want...it's a matter of what they do. They don't deal with things...anything...ever. So, if moving on and putting Caylee behind them means Casey stays in their lives...I don't see them choosing another way.

 

[lulu]

I don't think all murders are equally bad. If God asked me if I wanted gang bangers to kill each other or the murder of an innocent 2 year old, I'd go for the gang bangers everytime. It's a sliding scale.

The law has always recognized distinctions among murders and punishes accordingly.

 

[julia_girl]

I don't think all murders are equally bad. If God asked me if I wanted gang bangers to kill each other or the murder of an innocent 2 year old, I'd go for the gang bangers everytime. It's a sliding scale.

The law has always recognized distinctions among murders and punishes accordingly.

+1

 

[LAJennifer]

I've stayed out of this one but am growing curious on why it has such legs because IMHO all humans have equal value.
Children and adults.
Female and male.
Cute little girls and ugly old men.
White and black.
Daughters and strangers.

Murders happen all the time.
Every one is equally bad and upsetting, well at least in my book.

Apparently this one gets people here wound up because it was a cute little white girl, and a daughter of the defendant to boot and this forum has many white moms.
This one hits home, but it shouldn't.
Actually all murders should.

I just wonder why every black gang member murdered by some latino gang member doesn't also get 25 pages.

You know, I think the reason--for me, at least--that I latched onto this case was because the victim was so innocent and so young and so sweet, and there is a lot of video of Caylee out there--it's not just pictures of her...she's singing "You Are My Sunshine" and reading her favorite story the day before she died or was last seen. So to watch that and know what happened the very next day? It's heartbreaking, and it's so sad. It's a very emotional case because is so much out there on Caylee.

I don't, obviously, agree with murder--anyone's murder for any reason. And I do feel like every death is sad and unfortunate...but there is something about the loss of child that, I don't know, is a different level of sad.

A gang banger, he or she makes a choice--they run with a certain crowd and surround themselves with violence. But, children, they don't. They don't know enough of the world to make those choices, they're innocent. Their whole world is the people that love them and protect them. They're babies--they can't protect themselves...so when there's a good possibility that child's own mother smothered that child, it's really hard to wrap your mind around.

And sometimes there is the innocent bystander that lives in the wrong neighborhood that becomes the victim of violence. I could rant for days and days about what happened to Jamiel Shaw in Los Angeles a few years ago. Rising young high school Football Running Back, with a great future ahead of him - gunned down as he got off the bus 2 blocks from his home. The offender happened to be an illegal immigrant member of an illegal gang. He had done some jail time, and LAPD turned him loose to the streets of LA (instead of deporting him). He shot Jamiel the very day he was released. Jamiel's mother was serving in Iraq at the time. Could you imagine receiving that news?

 

[risingsun]

I don't think all murders are equally bad. If God asked me if I wanted gang bangers to kill each other or the murder of an innocent 2 year old, I'd go for the gang bangers everytime. It's a sliding scale.

The law has always recognized distinctions among murders and punishes accordingly.

I agree with you, lulu. To say all murders are equally bad is moral relativism. It's time to say that certain acts are heinous and deserve special consequences. For the sake of all of us, can the people in this country please develop some critical thinking skills and use them.

 

[kenny]

I don't think all murders are equally bad. If God asked me if I wanted gang bangers to kill each other or the murder of an innocent 2 year old, I'd go for the gang bangers everytime. It's a sliding scale.

The law has always recognized distinctions among murders and punishes accordingly.

I agree with you, lulu. To say all murders are equally bad is moral relativism. It's time to say that certain acts are heinous and deserve special consequences. For the sake of all of us, can the people in this country please develop some critical thinking skills and use them.

I have no problem with there being many differing opinions.
I would not insult people who disagree with me by saying they lack critical thinking skills.

People just vary, even those with critical thinking skills.

 

[JewelFreak]

Cindy, IMHO, has an ability to compartmentalize things. Very much like Casey does. I think, when they said the chapter was closed, they meant it. Broken though they may be, and they may have loved their granddaughter, Cindy will now cling to what she has and let the rest go. If Casey wanted to go home...she'd make her bed with fresh sheets and hit the grocery store. What happened in the courthouse, that's boxed up now and in the past, I suspect.

George, I do believe, operates on a different wave length. He knows what happened, so on that I agree with you completely. But he doesn't strike me as the type to stand up to Cindy, no matter what.

Good points all, Italia. You may be right. Cindy would welcome Casey home w/open arms -- then hound her continually to tell what happened to Caylee. And if she did tell, would beat her with it forever but not kick her out. I still think the emotional punishment has taken years from George's life.

I read a book by a psychiatrist once regarding Jeff McDonald, who has for 30 yrs steadfastly denied stabbing his pregnant wife & 2 daughters despite all evidence. The shrink said McDonald has probably convinced himself he really didn't do it, narcissists being so adept at compartmentalizing. I can see that possibility w/Casey.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

And sometimes there is the innocent bystander that lives in the wrong neighborhood that becomes the victim of violence. I could rant for days and days about what happened to Jamiel Shaw in Los Angeles a few years ago. Rising young high school Football Running Back, with a great future ahead of him - gunned down as he got off the bus 2 blocks from his home. The offender happened to be an illegal immigrant member of an illegal gang. He had done some jail time, and LAPD turned him loose to the streets of LA (instead of deporting him). He shot Jamiel the very day he was released. Jamiel's mother was serving in Iraq at the time. Could you imagine receiving that news?

That's awful. I hope Jamiel's family got justice for what was done to him. Stories like that are very, very hard to hear.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Cindy, IMHO, has an ability to compartmentalize things. Very much like Casey does. I think, when they said the chapter was closed, they meant it. Broken though they may be, and they may have loved their granddaughter, Cindy will now cling to what she has and let the rest go. If Casey wanted to go home...she'd make her bed with fresh sheets and hit the grocery store. What happened in the courthouse, that's boxed up now and in the past, I suspect.

George, I do believe, operates on a different wave length. He knows what happened, so on that I agree with you completely. But he doesn't strike me as the type to stand up to Cindy, no matter what.

Good points all, Italia. You may be right. Cindy would welcome Casey home w/open arms -- then hound her continually to tell what happened to Caylee. And if she did tell, would beat her with it forever but not kick her out. I still think the emotional punishment has taken years from George's life.

I read a book by a psychiatrist once regarding Jeff McDonald, who has for 30 yrs steadfastly denied stabbing his pregnant wife & 2 daughters despite all evidence. The shrink said McDonald has probably convinced himself he really didn't do it, narcissists being so adept at compartmentalizing. I can see that possibility w/Casey.

It's possible. It could be that Casey totally blacked that day out of her memory and doesn't know what happened. How could a mother sit there otherwise for weeks and weeks and listen to all that evidence--not the incriminating stuff, but the details of what happened to the baby post mortem-- and not have a total breakdown?

 

[risingsun]

I don't think all murders are equally bad. If God asked me if I wanted gang bangers to kill each other or the murder of an innocent 2 year old, I'd go for the gang bangers everytime. It's a sliding scale.

The law has always recognized distinctions among murders and punishes accordingly.

I agree with you, lulu. To say all murders are equally bad is moral relativism. It's time to say that certain acts are heinous and deserve special consequences. For the sake of all of us, can the people in this country please develop some critical thinking skills and use them.

I have no problem with there being many differing opinions.
I would not insult people who disagree with me by saying they lack critical thinking skills.

People just vary, even those with critical thinking skills.

My comment was not directed at you, Kenny. I think, overall, that there are many people who lack well developed critical thinking skills. When a juror states that one of the reasons they found Casey not guilty was because "a mother wouldn't do that to her child," we have an example poor critical thinking skills. Mothers have done this to their children and will continue to do so. If this was the overarching rationale for the verdict, something has gone very wrong with the judicial system and the judge should have tossed it out. I believe the judge has the right to do this. Can someone clarify this for me.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

My comment was not directed at you, Kenny. I think, overall, that there are many people who lack well developed critical thinking skills. When a juror states that one of the reasons they found Casey not guilty was because "a mother wouldn't do that to her child," we have an example poor critical thinking skills. Mothers have done this to their children and will continue to do so. If this was the overarching rationale for the verdict, something has gone very wrong with the judicial system and the judge should have tossed it out. I believe the judge has the right to do this. Can someone clarify this for me.

From what I understand, the only way a Judge would toss a verdict is in a case of Jury tampering...like finding out the jurors were bribed or an outside force weighted their decision. A judge can overturn a guilty verdict, however, if the presiding Judge feels there was overwhelming reasonable doubt.

And, as you know, I agree with you. The things that were said and have since come to light--like the mother not killing her child to party--while it might not be something the jury at large had experience with, doesn't mean it can't be done or wasn't done.

 

[lbbaber]

I just heard that they are trying to introduce a bill that would stop jurors from profitting from cases. The reasons mentioned were exactly what I mentioned earlier in this thread.

 

[JewelFreak]

What a sad place we've come to that there is a need for such a law! What the heck has happened to ethics in this country? Makes my stomach turn.

 

[Resonance.Of.Life]

She's going to try to appeal the four misdemeanor guilty verdicts of "providing false information to police officers." *Sigh.. I guess she's going to see how much she can get away with.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

She's going to try to appeal the four misdemeanor guilty verdicts of "providing false information to police officers." *Sigh.. I guess she's going to see how much she can get away with.

I can see three possible reasons for this..

1. She can then plead the 5th in her civil cases, because she won't want to incriminate herself in the criminal charges.
2. She can possibly, if found Not Guilty of lying to police ( btw), sue the state of FL.
3. Baez is getting greedy and wants her exonerated on all charges.

Where it derails, IMO, is the fact the lies are video tapped.

If you remember during the sentencing for the 4 charges, Baez motioned to have them all condensed into 1 criminal charge of lying to police because all the lies they charged her with occurred on one day. He claimed since all the lies happened within that short of time, charging her multiples for the "same offense" was double jeopardy. If he had been successful, her prison time would have been "time served" and she would have walked free that afternoon. I think that's what Baez really, really wanted for himself since it would make him look better--like he really got her off of every charge.

Judge Perry said, to that motion, that the time between the lies--hours and hours--gave Casey Anthony enough room to properly reflect on misleading the police and correct the path...which, obviously, she didn't. Which is why the 4 individual counts stood.

I really believe that if no one was suing for the LIES...she wouldn't have appealed. Because what's the real point in appealing now? Well, she's facing all of these legal matters stemming from the LIES that could potentially cost her half a million dollars, if not more. If she has a pending criminal case that would be in conflict with the civil case, she does not have to testify and incriminate herself by admitting the lies. It would appear that they are hoping the plaintiffs won't have enough evidence to find her guilty in civil court without her own words admitting her guilt.

And this what I think Baez didn't count on when he made that opening statement. I don't believe he realized or considered the fact that people would say "well, if the baby was dead all along and you knew that...then pay us for looking for the child"...

Baez never fought the lying in court, he all but gave them the reason to convict her on that with his posters and his flat out calling her a liar, and I feel that was because he knew that the prison time would a wash. But this is a whole new ball game. You have this girl with no education, no money, who only has this story sell in hopes of securing her future. If all that money--because it's not just the 3 suits, its the IRS and the Courts--is gone, then what does she do?

I believe Baez held off filing the appeal on the convictions until the three suits (which were just rumblings following her conviction) were filed and on the docket, so there can't be "take backs" and then he dropped this bomb that she doesn't have to say a word to anyone. So unless they can use the opening statement Baez made in court, and have outside proof that, yes, she lied...what happens to those civil cases?

 

[Resonance.Of.Life]

@ Italia: I totally agree with you on all counts. It's just disgusting. But for me it seems the biggest reason here are fiscal in nature.

 

[JewelFreak]

Is taking the 5th in a civil trial allowed? I remember when the Browns sued OJ, people crowed because he would have to testify & wouldn't be able to take the 5th. Do I have it wrong? How can you be permitted to do that over a charge of which you've already been found innocent & can't be tried again?

Doesn't matter in this case anyhow. Since she's been acquitted, she can stand on a rooftop & shout that she did it. Nobody can do a thing to her.

 

[tyty333]

Is taking the 5th in a civil trial allowed? I remember when the Browns sued OJ, people crowed because he would have to testify & wouldn't be able to take the 5th. Do I have it wrong? How can you be permitted to do that over a charge of which you've already been found innocent & can't be tried again?

Doesn't matter in this case anyhow. Since she's been acquitted, she can stand on a rooftop & shout that she did it. Nobody can do a thing to her.

They (tv) said as long as the appeal is going on that she can plead the 5th...I'm sure Baez will stretch it out as long as possible.
As soon as the appeal is over she has to speak. She wasnt found innnocent of the lying to the police charges and those are the
ones that are up for appeal.

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Did anyone know that defenses jury consultant, Amy Singer, came forward and spoke out about how they decided to target George?

Apparently, it was public opinion. Sites like Facebook, Twitter planted the seed...people made off the cuff comments about how they would bet George knew something...and Amy Singer gathered all that information and handed it over to the defense. Once Baez had it in hand, they tweaked their defense to paint George as the bad guy.

Here is a link to explain this better:
http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-tampa-bay/casey-anthony-trial-consultant-reveals-social-media-strategy-to-go-after-george

Am I the only one who feels like that is just wrong?

I understand the defense gets to play by another set of rules...but still...ruining someones life like that? I don't think that's okay, I don't think that's right, and CA going along with it--especially if it wasn't true--is just criminal. I guess it all boils down to just another lie among many...no worse than the others, but certainly no better. It's really gross...and yes, it's a miscarriage of justice IMO.

 

[sillyberry]

Did anyone know that defenses jury consultant, Amy Singer, came forward and spoke out about how they decided to target George?

Apparently, it was public opinion. Sites like Facebook, Twitter planted the seed...people made off the cuff comments about how they would bet George knew something...and Amy Singer gathered all that information and handed it over to the defense. Once Baez had it in hand, they tweaked their defense to paint George as the bad guy.

Here is a link to explain this better:
http://www.examiner.com/crime-in-tampa-bay/casey-anthony-trial-consultant-reveals-social-media-strategy-to-go-after-george

Am I the only one who feels like that is just wrong?

I understand the defense gets to play by another set of rules...but still...ruining someones life like that? I don't think that's okay, I don't think that's right, and CA going along with it--especially if it wasn't true--is just criminal. I guess it all boils down to just another lie among many...no worse than the others, but certainly no better. It's really gross...and yes, it's a miscarriage of justice IMO.

This reminds me of the Danielle Van Dam case. The defense knew David Westerfield murdered her -- they had been planning on cutting a deal to show the police where the body was found (and then it was) -- but insinuated the parents were responsible it in open court.

Defense ethics was the hardest part of taking Criminal Procedure II (our version of trial ethics) for me. There is a lot of latitude permitted. The course was taught by a Federal Public Defender and she didn't like me very much...

 

[Italiahaircolor]

Sillyberry...but is lying really any form of respectable justice?

I guess thats another aspect I'm confused on. I understand that there is latitude for the defense that can allow for reasonable doubt if there is no evidence proving a case AGAINST the prosecution's claims. But, and this where I get stuck, how is it okay to LIE to prove that someone is innocent--just bald face lie? Isn't there an oath against that--to tell the truth, the whole truth? Just because a certain lawyer sits at certain table he or she is no longer held to that standard?

If George Anthony helped cover up the death Caylee, the defense would not need a jury consultant to give them the idea, plant the seed, or even do research on the "public opinion"...or, at least that's my belief, because, it would be the truth--it would have always been the truth. Sad, disgusting, confusing, heartbreaking...but still, the truth. I don't see how it's legally ethical to ruin someone who, without a shred of proof, had nothing to do with it.

There was evidence, circumstantial though it may be, that Casey Anthony played a hand in the death of her daughter. There was nothing, other than speculation--but not a single trace of hard, tangible evidence--that George did anything sexual to Casey as a child, nor that he concealed the death of his granddaughter. Yet, making those claims is allowed? Why? What greater purpose does it serve? Because it may or may not muddy the water enough to let another person, a potentially guilty person, go free? Is that really what I'm expected to believe? Is this the end justify the means?

 

[JewelFreak]

I have the same questions, Italia. And the same nausea at these methods & tactics. It is similar to the way they used to do rape trials -- trash the victim. Rules then went into effect disallowing that sort of thing because it was almost always 1) inaccurate & 2) ruining to the complainant. Also discouraged women from reporting rape.

So how is it different to hold someone up as an abuser, liar, wacko in a murder trial, without a word of proof? I think Perry made a mistake in not requiring a proffer hearing before he let Baez loose with his fairy stories. It's understandable he wanted to give the defense plenty of latitude in a d.p. case, but allowing them to destroy a bystander -- and grieving grandfather -- without even testimony on the subject is unfair. The excuse is always the same: "it's my job to give the defendant the most vigorous defense possible." To me that doesn't include flights of total fantasy. If the lawyer is willing to do it -- officer of the court as he is -- it's up to the judge to control things.

I suppose this Facebook etc., business will now become standard fare for defense lawyers. Beyond sad for us.