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Can you forgive?

missy

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Does forgiving others for perceived wrongs against you come easy for you? Or do you tend to hold grudges?
I know forgiving is the healthier option compared to holding grudges as it can quite literally damage your heart and health.

Personally I can forgive as long as I feel the other person gets what they did and feels sorry for their actions. However if that person refuses to acknowledge the wrongdoing it is much harder. Though eventually I can let go of it but I cannot move forward in that relationship and so ultimately it ends my relationship with the person. However yes I can forgive when I feel heard and know the person is sorry. Then it is not a problem for me moving forward with that person. Usually.

No matter what though I work hard at letting the negativity in my heart go for my sake more than anyone else's.


What about you? Can you forgive easily? Does it depend on the other person(s) involved? Is it harder for you?
And can you forget? Honestly I don't forget. I'm like an elephant that way. I usually eventually forgive but I always remember. Though I can truly forgive it seems remembering is something I just can't help. It's funny because in most other ways my memory sucks. 8)

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monarch64

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It's hard to forget things that evoke strong feelings. The rest of your memory sucks because those memories aren't associated with strong feelings would be my guess. What's that Maya Angelou quote? "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." (That's what googling tells me, anyway.)

I can forgive actions and words, usually based on other context or how well I know the person, but if something they did really bothered me I never forget it. And that goes for positive things as well. However if someone has really betrayed my trust or wronged me in some way that affected my life or my loved ones' lives, nope, no forgiveness here. And it isn't that I hold a grudge (although that is one of the simple definitions of forgiveness--stopping blame or holding someone's actions against them), it's that I am now guarded with that person and keep in mind (not heart) what they said or did. Actions are telling of one's character, period. Always believe someone when they show you who they are is something I live by, and that philosophy took me a long time to accept--several hard lessons learned.
 

Jambalaya

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This is a very interesting question, Missy.

How to we define forgiveness? I think the word "forgive" conjures up different things for different people. Experts seem to think that forgiveness means putting the hurt behind you and moving on, not necessarily with the wronger still in your life, and that you don't even need to tell the wronger that you forgive them.

But to me, when I hear the word forgiveness, I picture the wrongee saying to the wronger, "That's OK, all forgotten, things are the same as they were before!" and then bouncing off into the sunset together.

When it comes to smaller wrongs, I'm good at putting myself in the other person's shoes. The waitress who gives truly crappy service but is clearly exhausted; the friend who never calls anymore but is going through various illnesses and/or bereavements in her family; the bitchy comments from the desperately unhappy friend; the forgotten birthday from a friend who's overwhelmed at work;the friend who can't travel to my family event because she's always been a bit short of cash. Those, I can forgive because they're not really wrongs - they're the result of someone's personal circumstances and it's not about you.

But while I'm a big believer in putting yourself in someone else's shoes, I also believe there are some things which are unforgivable. I've been on the receiving end of some of that, and I can tell you that the perpetrators weren't one bit sorry. No forgiveness for them. I told one of them in great detail exactly what I thought of her, and I think that it was a very healthy thing to do. She's well aware that I do not forgive her and that I hate her guts, and those are my true feelings.

I do not know what I'd do if the perpetrator of a grand crime against me was truly sorry. In the few grand crimes that I've experienced, the person was not in the slightest bit sorry and cared nothing for my heartbreak. I tend to think that if someone is of the type that will hurt you badly, they're not the type to be sorry about it or they never would have done it in the first place. However, if one of them was sorry we would probably meet, talk about it, get tearful and part on good terms, but I would not have the person in my life again.

In general, I don't consider myself a very forgiving person. I never forget a bitchy remark. The exception is as described above when someone is under a strain. But I can tell when someone is being a bitch purely for the joy of hurting me. Just one remark can make me want to throw the person off the nearest cliff, and I never really stop feeling that way about them. For example, on the first anniversary of my sister's death, my then-sister-in-law, who was well aware of the day, said that my then-husband was the only person in the family who had "married a poor girl." Said to my face, mean little eyes watching me closely to see if I would be hurt. I did not come from a poor family at all, but the other siblings had married into very wealthy families. I despise that woman to this day. Her remark hurt dreadfully on a day I was already raw. I have never stopped wanting to throw her off a cliff and I never will. I don't forgive people who make it very clear that they are my enemies.

Yeah, forgiveness. It's complex. I suspect that if I had children I'd be more forgiving of them than anybody else in my life, save my late mother.
 

hay joe

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Yes. The "wrongs against" others are more difficult.
 

Jambalaya

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Hay Joe, I'm interested to know more about how you forgive others, since it's something you seem able to do. I often find it hard when it comes to the big betrayals, as discussed above. Would you feel comfortable sharing about a time when someone has committed a grand betrayal against you, and what process you went through to forgive them - or simply what enabled you to do so? Do you still see or think about the person? I'm interested to hear about it from the perspective of someone who is OK with forgiving people. Of course, no worries if you're not comfortable sharing. :)
 

Jambalaya

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Also, Hay Joe, why do you wrong others - or think you do? I'm very careful not to hurt others' feelings in the things I say and I've never bullied or harassed or been intentionally unkind to anyone in my life, ever. I don't start it, let's put it that way. I'm sure the majority of people are the same, including you. (Not counting the handful of people we all know who just seem bent on being as unpleasant as possible.) So why do you wrong people? I'm sure you actually don't!
 

kenny

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Complex topic.
I'm not sure forgiving is always good.
There's a documentary called, "Forgiving Dr. Mengele".

Wikisnip:
Forgiving Dr. Mengele is a documentary film about Eva Mozes Kor, a victim of the Holocaust, and Dr. Josef Mengele and his staff, who experimented on her and her twin sister Miriam Mozes, as well as approximately 1,400 other twin pairs.

I'm deeply conflicted about this woman forgiving Mengele.
I think doing so helps to make the Holocaust less of a big deal.
It's important to forever hold people accountable for the worst wrongs.

I can forgive all but a few of the worst things others have done to me.

If someone tells me that to be happy I must forgive everything I'll tell them that they should ...uhm ... just let people vary.
 

VRBeauty

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monarch64|1458484963|4008329 said:
It's hard to forget things that evoke strong feelings. The rest of your memory sucks because those memories aren't associated with strong feelings would be my guess. What's that Maya Angelou quote? "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." (That's what googling tells me, anyway.)
That's a great quote and observation, Monny. That about sums it up for me.

I can hold a grudge against someone who has hurt me. Years ago I was so hurt by someone who been a friend and remained a co-worker that the hurt turned into a deep resentment. I knew the resentment could not go on, because it was hurting me as well as potentially coloring our work relationship. I had to work really hard at forgiving her and letting go of the resentment, and eventually I was successful. She's a very intelligent woman who had an incredible career that (not surprisingly, to me) leapfrogged over mine. At one point I interviewed with her for what would have been, for me, a significant promotion. She offered me the position, even took me to dinner to discuss it and the staff I'd be managing, etc. Then... someone who had not been interested in the position before changed her mind, and she offered the position to that person instead. And aside from some disappointment, I was OK with it; the incident did not spark a new resentment. That was how I knew I had been successful in forgiving that earlier hurt and resentment.

I'm more careful about collecting those hurts and resentments these days, but there is one person who has hurt me badly recently who I must admit I haven't totally forgiven - mainly, I think, because I don't totally trust her not to do it again.
 

VRBeauty

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kenny|1458490246|4008366 said:
Complex topic.
I'm not sure forgiving is always good.
There's a documentary called, "Forgiving Dr. Mengele".

Wikisnip:
Forgiving Dr. Mengele is a documentary film about Eva Mozes Kor, a victim of the Holocaust, and Dr. Josef Mengele and his staff, who experimented on her and her twin sister Miriam Mozes, as well as approximately 1,400 other twin pairs.

I'm deeply conflicted about this woman forgiving Mengele.
I think doing so helps to make the Holocaust less of a big deal.
It's important to forever hold people accountable for the worst wrongs.

I can forgive all but a few of the worst things others have done to me.

If someone tells me that to be happy I must forgive everything I'll tell them that they should ...uhm ... just let people vary.
That's an interesting observation. In essence, you're saying that Eva Kor and other victims of atrocities owe it to society not to forgive, to hold on to their anger, resentment, and hatred? I know this sounds simplistic, but in my experience the old adage that resentment hurts the person carrying it more than its "target" is true. I assume that in forgiving Mengele (I could not use an honorific with his name) Ms. Kor released herself from a cloud of bitterness and hatred that was coloring her days and weighing her down. I don't mean to use namby-pamby language there, just couldn't come up with language that might better describe the feel and effect of carrying that much hatred. In essence, you're saying that Ms. Kor has a societal responsibility to keep re-living her Holocaust experience in order to keep the Holocaust alive for the rest of us.

I'm going to invoke my right to vary and respectfully disagree. ;)) I am concerned that the horror of the holocaust will fade as the generation of those who lived it dies out. But I don't think those who suffered through an atrocity need to be asked to constantly re-live it to spur the rest of us to action.
 

missy

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Thank you for such thought provoking responses.
monarch64 said:
It's hard to forget things that evoke strong feelings. The rest of your memory sucks because those memories aren't associated with strong feelings would be my guess. What's that Maya Angelou quote? "I've learned that people will forget what you said, people will forget what you did, but people will never forget how you made them feel." (That's what googling tells me, anyway.)

I can forgive actions and words, usually based on other context or how well I know the person, but if something they did really bothered me I never forget it. And that goes for positive things as well. However if someone has really betrayed my trust or wronged me in some way that affected my life or my loved ones' lives, nope, no forgiveness here. And it isn't that I hold a grudge (although that is one of the simple definitions of forgiveness--stopping blame or holding someone's actions against them), it's that I am now guarded with that person and keep in mind (not heart) what they said or did. Actions are telling of one's character, period. Always believe someone when they show you who they are is something I live by, and that philosophy took me a long time to accept--several hard lessons learned.

Monnie, Thank you!. Great perspective and food for thought. (Speaking of food did you finish that food documentary? I hope you liked it and I am going to check out the documentary you recommended to me too). That is a great quote and I agree with it completely. You never forget the way someone makes you feel. Perhaps that is why I am always going to feel the way I do with my dh's family no matter how many years pass. It is sad but it just is the way it is. And I also agree always believe someone when they show you who you are. So wise.

Hay Joe, If I ever wrong someone (always unintentional on my part) I am quick to apologize from the heart and mean every word of it. And I always hope that the person will forgive me fully as I would them if the hurt was unintentional and the apology sincere. But fortunately I don't hurt people often at all as I am very sensitive that way and in tune with others generally. In fact that gives me another thread topic. Would be interested in hearing more about your thoughts regarding this.

Jambalaya, yes I do the same thing. Try to put myself in the other person's place so I can come from a place of understanding vs judging harshly. And yes there are things that one can forgive and things that well one may never be able to forgive. And with that I agree with Kenny too.

Kenny, yes I agree. I could never forgive the perpetrator for so harmful a crime against me or my loved ones. But having said that I see what VRBeauty is saying too. I think I can hate someone (i.e. the Nazis) without letting it further damage me. Meaning that I could move on with my life but never forgive such an egregious and yes unforgivable crime. And I agree I can be happy without forgiving everything.

And VR, yes I could not forgive someone who hurt me that badly who I could never trust again but the way I wouldn't let it hurt me would be to move on without them in my life so it could not continue hurting me. That is the way I deal with those I cannot forgive. But again I think it may be we have different definitions of forgiveness. I think if someone has hurt us so badly we move on without them in our lives so they can never hurt us again. That is how I make my peace with it.
 

smitcompton

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Hi,
I have certain types of things I won't forgive. In certain areas I do believe there is a right and wrong. For me, I don't forgive those who have not, or did not help me when I was sick, really sick. I have a brother that I used to love, and an old friend who I will no longer deal with because I see them as cruel people. When I turned up, finally at my doctors office, she cried for me. Thank goodness, they fixed me up, but I cried almost constantly for months. But these people still try to be friends. I just ignore them.
There is no more anger attached, so I don't dwell on it any more.

Usually, I'm easy going. I don't look for slights or insults, and really most people like me. I have a line that can't be crossed, I don't know if I could forgive a murderer. Its just wrong to me. I think I may have some absolutes in me.

I do agree, if the thought of what someone has done to you overshadows your emotions, its time to let go. But it doesn't mean to forget. Memory serves as a good defense and teacher.

Annette
 

kenny

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While I'll never forgive a few biggies I'm unusually forgiving when it comes to most other things ... like when a driver cuts me off.
Recently I had $1,700 of music stuff stolen from my car.
It's not that $1,700 is not a lot of money.
It's just that there's nothing I can undo about it.
I just said Oh Shit! :knockout: and I was over it and moved on.

Conflicts with my SO where he screwed up I get over almost immediately.
He'll stay mad for days.

I even accept all the biggies I'll never forgive.
I don't dwell on or let it bother me.
It sucked but it's just what happened.
It just is.
I fall asleep within a minute of my head hitting the pillow.

It's okay to not forgive.
 

packrat

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Depends what I might be forgiving. The person who raped me? No, never,even tho he is dead and has been for 20 years. Little things that happen in the course of a life, trivial things, yes. I don't forget anything tho.
 

stracci2000

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It depends on the situation.
Small things, I always forgive and forget.
Big things take more time.
I'm very angry at my former employer for screwing up the business, closing the establishment and costing all of us our jobs.
I'm still pi$$ed about that, 4 years ago now.
 

iLander

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I'm actually very easy going. I get mad, and I am mad for those moments that I am yelling. Then, as soon as I stop yelling, I'm over it. Not big on grudges. Rolls off my back, all forgiven.

I am also good at laughing at myself. You have to work pretty hard to insult me, because usually I'm just laughing along.

UNLESS you deliberately treat me badly. I might be easy going, but I am NOT a sucker.

Then my preferred response is to cut you out of my life. No grudge, you just don't exist anymore.

I wish I could do this with DS and DIL, but as I've said before, DH still wants to keep them around. :|
 

ckrickett

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I think there is a difference between forgiveness, and actually condoning what happened. Also a lot of the time (me especially) when I forgive its so I can get past it.
 

monarch64

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missy|1458493327|4008383 said:
Monnie, Thank you!. Great perspective and food for thought. (Speaking of food did you finish that food documentary? I hope you liked it and I am going to check out the documentary you recommended to me too). That is a great quote and I agree with it completely. You never forget the way someone makes you feel. Perhaps that is why I am always going to feel the way I do with my dh's family no matter how many years pass. It is sad but it just is the way it is. And I also agree always believe someone when they show you who you are. So wise.
As soon as I saw this response of yours earlier I put my daughter down for a nap and turned it on! (No LIE, lol!) It's a sad and frustrating issue, and while I did enjoy the doc I am pissed that it has come to this. One of the interviewees said something like "if this were being done to our children in any other country we would be at war over it." That point really hit home. Big food and gov't are definitely in cahoots and our people are being poisoned, basically. Anyway, I am doing my best to do my part within my domestic sphere and I write a blog about beginner gardening to encourage others who don't think they can grow their own organic food for whatever reason that yes, they CAN. I grew up on a farm, am familiar with the industry, and will continue to try to help educate others and help them grow their own. Believe me I have an answer for every excuse in the book as to why someone can't grow their own and it has nothing to do with the color of their thumb. :bigsmile: Every public school in this country should have funding for and participate in a school gardening program. This is turning into a diatribe so I'll stop now. :wavey:
 

marcy

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I usually can forgive someone as long as they realize they did something wrong or hurt me; it would depend on the circumstances. I always give someone a second chance. Should that behavior or action continue it's less likely I will continue to forgive them or hang around with them anymore.
 

missy

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ckrickett|1458502373|4008451 said:
I think there is a difference between forgiveness, and actually condoning what happened. Also a lot of the time (me especially) when I forgive its so I can get past it.
This is so true Ckrickett. Thank you. Often forgiving is more for us to be able to move forward and onwards and less to do with the person we are forgiving. That is how I think of it sometimes when it is challenging to forgive someone for hurting me who isn't sorry about it. Yes we forgive so we can get past it. But without that person in our lives.


iLander, it's OK. You are seeing the bigger pic and you love and respect your dh more than you don't love your DIL or love the behavior of your son.

Stracci, I'm sorry you experienced this upheaval and sometimes it makes me feel less upset when I know it wasn't my fault if that makes sense and not in my control in any way. You couldn't have changed what happened so take heart in that if it helps.

Marcy, it's the same way with me. It's the fool me once vs twice motto I tend to go by.

Packrat, (((hugs))).

Annette, I agree. I think perhaps some of us have different definitions of forgiveness. We forgive sometimes just so we can get on with our lives and being content and happy not letting the hate and negatives stress continue to eat away at us.


Kenny, I am similar in that way. I get mad fast but I also get over it fast. Unless it is something egregious that is. But for example if my SO pisses me off I react right away (very different than his style) but then I get over it almost as quickly whereas it takes my dh longer to get mad and longer to get over it. However unlike you I cannot get out of my head when it is time to go to sleep and I often lay awake for hours. I try to blank my mind out when I go to bed but it doesn't always work. I cannot shut my brain off sometimes and it is not for lack of trying. Good for you for being able to be at peace with everything when you go to bed. That is a goal I will continue trying to achieve.


diamondrnglover, thanks for sharing.


Monnie, Please don't hold back. I am right there with you. And I'm pissed too. Should we forgive those big corporations and the government? :lol:
Hell NO. But we aren't going to let it eat away at us either. When it comes to the big businesses and government and politicians etc that type of dislike (IMO) doesn't hurt the same as personal issues but heck it still is messing up our whole country and world too. ;(
Good for you for making a difference and doing what you can! I would love to find your food blog. Is there a way I can search for it that is not against the PS rules?
 

ame

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I think in my entire life I have buried exactly one hatchet.
 

chrono

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I have a handful of dealbreakers but other than those, I forgive easily.
There are a few situations where I will forgive but never forget. Other than those, I forgive and forget readily.
 

telephone89

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I think I still have a grudge against someone from HS. Now, we've grown apart and literally haven't spoken in years. So it's not like I see this person every day and ignore them or anything. But some people don't deserve forgiveness. I don't know if I buy the whole forgiving to make ME feel better. It never has. Maybe it's about moving on. I think I can move on and not forgive someone. They just aren't in my life any more.
 

Arcadian

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I might forgive, but I do not forget. I forgive mainly for myself because carrying that stuff around with you all the time is like a albatros. And I've learned that letting bad things consume you is well...bad. So best to forgive and move forward. Its selfish but hey I'll own that.

But forgetting? No, I never forget. There are things that can't be wiped clean IMO.
 

liaerfbv

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There's a very small handful of people who could do something to me that I would need an apology for that I would accept and keep them in my life. I don't hold grudges but I am quick to cut loose "dead weight" relationships and move on.
 

OreoRosies86

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Generally I have a very slash-and-burn personality. If you are a person who has really wronged me or my family or friends, chances are we're permanently done. Life is way too short for that noise.

However some people I do get an inexplicable soft spot for, and in those instances I am more open to second chances and selective memory. It's weird.
 

lyra

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I've learned to "let it go" in recent years. I have an issue with the word forgive. As Kenny said, it's complex. I've said and done stupid things, and hope that others wouldn't hold a grudge against me, but I think most people wouldn't "forget" these things either. They might not even forgive, but maybe eventually they can more easily just move on.

I don't have a grudge against my sister, but we will be estranged for the rest of my life. I have moved on and accepted that it's better for me (and my family), that she is not in our lives any longer. She is a very toxic person, and has mental health issues and substance abuse issues. I have trouble saying I forgive her for certain things she has done, but it's not as hard to just let it go and accept that she is not going to change no matter what I think, say or do. YMMV.
 

HollyS

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I can forgive and move on. But, I don't forget. I don't mean I hold a grudge, because that's worthless emotion. However, someone's past actions to me and against me will certainly be something I remember and take into consideration from that moment on. What's the song by The Who? Won't Get Fooled Again?
 

Haven

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I had a very difficult time forgiving people when I was a younger adult, and I was quick (at times too quick) to cut people out of my life. At some point in my early twenties I changed, and I now have a very easy time forgiving people, particularly when it is clear that their behavior towards me is more about themselves than about me. (And things are rarely really about me, anyway. I am only the star of my own show, here, in my wonderfully small life.)

Two examples that come to mind: When I was young, my father's younger brother was a totally disappointing uncle. He would pop in to our lives for a few glorious weeks every year or two, and then disappear, sometimes with our family car and savings. (Really.) When he was 40 and I was 20 he was diagnosed with a brain tumor. He and my family were not on speaking terms at the time, and I did not choose to forgive him for various hurts even though I knew he had only a short time to live. I regret this decision.

More recently, a colleague of mine was extremely aggressive to me, and it was clear that she desperately wanted to ruin my chances of earning tenure. She was crafty about it, and early on I decided that her behavior was clearly about her own issues and insecurities and not about me at all. I did not let this aggression bother me, I simply acted as if I didn't notice it at all. After two years of her behavior, she scheduled a meeting with me and a few of our close colleagues, and issued me a tearful and emotional apology in front of the group. It was not necessary, I really felt bad for her throughout the entire period because she was clearly struggling with something mighty awful to behave in such an ugly way towards someone she didn't really know.

I appreciate Ckrickett's point that forgiving and condoning are two different things. I agree with this wholeheartedly.

I know there are some hurts that cannot be forgiven, even now that I am a more forgiving person than I once was. I am grateful that I have not yet experienced such things in my adult life, and I hope I never do.
 

monarch64

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missy|1458562659|4008841 said:
Monnie, Please don't hold back. I am right there with you. And I'm pissed too. Should we forgive those big corporations and the government? :lol:
Hell NO. But we aren't going to let it eat away at us either. When it comes to the big businesses and government and politicians etc that type of dislike (IMO) doesn't hurt the same as personal issues but heck it still is messing up our whole country and world too. ;(
Good for you for making a difference and doing what you can! I would love to find your food blog. Is there a way I can search for it that is not against the PS rules?
Hey Missy, I emailed Ella to see if I could give you some hints at search terms but she said it's a no-no. Sorry! Are you on Loupetroop, or FB?
 
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