Can this sapphire be called padparadsha ?

[colorchange]

This sapphire from Ceylon is very nice (2.3 Ct, heat only) but the color is not very saturated, may it be called padparadsha ?

If you sature the color you get the second that is obviously some padparadsha hue, so what about this stone ?

 

[Michael_E]

colorchange,
NO ! You may not call that Padparadscha under any circumstances !

You know what ? I have seen far worse stones called a padparadscha, so why not ? Actually that picture is so bad that it is really impossible to tell what color that stone is. The picture needs to be taken outside or under some full spectrum lighting so that it shows some reflections from the pavilion facets to get a good idea of it''s actual color. Can you get a better picture ?

 

[colorchange]

Thanks for answering.

Unfortunately I made many tries and that''s the best.
This photo was taken with indirect sunlight, not artificial light, so the color is "true" as far as you can see some color .

The color isn''t as grey as the photo but still very very light.

 

[BWise]

To me that color is just pink, not parad. Though the definition varies on the color parad as suggested in this article. Link

I am still not clear on the parad color and its popularity. Is it because its rarity or just the high desire/demand for that color?

Can this sapphire be called a parad? - it will make my very happy if YES cause I got two of them.

 

[belle]

yingh,
that stone is a lovely color! so very vibrant.

it''s not what i think of when i hear the term padparadscha though. obviously, there is some debate to the exact color however, so i could be wrong!

 

[colorchange]

Thanks for your answers.

Anyway, mine is better than this

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=4644&item=5009958801&rd=1 I can''t understand how he can claim such a price !!!!!!!

yingh is your sapphire unheat/heat only ?

 

[BWise]

colorchange, sorry for stealing your topic for a moment.

I bet your sapphire is lovely in person, just your photography skill needs improvement.

(so do mine)

yes my sapphire is heat only. I guess I can call the color orange with red hue? I''ve seen people call that color parad. but aren''t orange sapphire more rare than parad?

 

[valeria101]

What is and what is not pad seems to be rather controversial - so if this one costs more than a ''pink'' sapphire would, there should be a lab report. Otherwise, even labs change their mind about what is pad sapphire today versus yesterday, not to mention that some stones may get the pedigree from one lab but not another.

The last newsletter from Cherrypicked.com had a nice overview of the state of affairs... now, where did I put it

...

Anyway, if the name matters to you and the thing carries a premium, I would definitely have it pass AGTA''s blessing. If not for your momentary peace of mind, than for having some guarantee that the next guy will also agree that what you own is a padparatcha sapphire. Sometimes it matters. Just my o.2 worth opinion, of course.

 

[BWise]

Ana, you never cease to amaze me with your knowledge!

 

[Edward Bristol]

Sorry to say so, but both are, in my opinion, not Pads.

Sri Lankan Pads (and that is the only place some say they are supposed to come from...) need strong pink and some orange.

Of course, deciding on pads is may be the most delicate thing in the colored gem world.

That starts with the old definition as "a color merger of the lotus flower and a tropical sunset"(!).

Anyone who knows how many colors the lotus flower (not to talk of a tropical sunset) shows, can imagine the confusion regarding the definition and the wild usage of the term, especially when it comes to 200% up for a real Pad...

I have seen longterm business relations breaking over that discussion.

Edward Bristol
www.wildfishgems.com

 

[TKC]

Date: 7/7/2005 5:26:26 PM
Author: yingh
colorchange, sorry for stealing your topic for a moment.

I bet your sapphire is lovely in person, just your photography skill needs improvement.

(so do mine)

yes my sapphire is heat only. I guess I can call the color orange with red hue? I''ve seen people call that color parad. but aren''t orange sapphire more rare than parad?

Hi Yingh, I believe that orange sapphires are very rare, but not the ones that have been Be heated. Have you orange sapphires been graded by a reputable gem lab. such as AGTA, AGL, GIA, or some reputable Swiss labs? How do you know that your orange sapphires were heated only? Many Thai sellers claim that their orange sapphires were heated only, but in fact, they were Be heated. I experienced once with a Thai seller, he said that the Pad. sapphire was unheated, but in fact, it was Be heated with shallow color. Orange sapphires in today''s market have mostly been Be heated especially with red orange color hues. Without a gem lab report from a reputable lab., we must assume that all orange sapphires (orange, orangy-red, red-orange, orange-red, reddish-orange and red and some Pad. sapphires) have been Be heated.

 

[colorchange]

I feel the exact same. True natural orange or orangy sapphires are extrelemy rare, but with Be treatment there are loads of this.

I have 2 orange (1 Ct and 0.86 Ct) it''s already hard to find some in such size.

My Ceylon is orangy pink and such a touch of orange is yet rare.

 

[Sagebrush]

"Pinkish orange to orangy pink" is the hue description but much hinges on the tone. Darker toned pink is red and darker toned orange begins to go brown. That is pretty close to a description of a majority of the Umba River padparadschas that were available in the market about ten years ago. In my book I describe the color a "delicate" meaning light the medium between 30-55% tone.

Take heed of TKC''s warning, most of the orange, pink-orange and yellow sapphires coming out of Bangkok are Be diffused.

 

[valeria101]

No.. I don''t know that much.

What is this ? I have yet to see a sample in person, but these hazy stones seem to glow in the dark. If these have no story as yet, perhaps they deserve one.

Madagascar, heat only at Imperialjewels.com.

 

[katbadness]

Date: 7/7/2005 5:30:25 PM
Author: valeria101
The last newsletter from Cherrypicked.com had a nice overview of the state of affairs... now, where did I put it

...

Here's the bit of discussion regarding Padparadscha from Cherrypicked.com's last newsletter.

Jerrold Green addresses the vexing issues surrounding the question, "What is a Padparadscha?"
What is a Padparadscha?

It sounds like a simple question. But the sound of "simple" things can be deceiving; especially when the leading labs in the marketplace can't agree. After decades of cutting, buying, selling and seeing some of the most legendary Padparadscha's even Richard and I are dumbfounded as to what the labs consider to be the type of gem that qualifies as a "Pad." So, if that makes you feel better, take comfort that we are all in the same boat adrift in confusion.

Before I tell you what I gleaned over the years as to what makes a Padparadscha a Padparadscha, let me recount my "Tale of 2 Pads" for your considerations.

Recently, I purchased 2 lovely Padparadscha's from one of my most trusted Sri Lankan sources whose reputation for honest above board dealing with us over the last 3 decades is beyond reproach. When he told me that the two Pads were both natural and Sri Lankan and that he had followed them both from the rough - and my examination of them concurred - I felt a sense of comfort and set off to re-shape these two native cuts into our trademark modern cut to bring out their best.

One gem showed a lovely bright medium to light pastel apricot tone with a discernible orange pink personality and no brown. The other gem was a more intense orangey pink with reddish highlights in a more spready shape.

When the gems returned from the lab, I gazed in amazement at the findings; yes both were natural untreated specimens. The brighter pastel gem received a Padparadscha type title while the more intense one was labeled "Natural Pink Sapphire." I thought this must have been a typo and called the lab to discuss their error.

The reply I received from the lab was unnerving; there was no error - the lab technician felt the gem to be too rich in color and that only pastel orange-pinks can be considered Padparadscha. If that lab technicians definition were the case that would mean that the world's most legendary Pads - like the one's in the museums and the one's sold at the world's most prestigious auction houses - would not qualify as Padparadscha by today's lab standards! The absurdity of the moment stood out for me as I shook my head and asked Esther, our office manager to go into the safe and bring out a tray of pink sapphires of all different tonal variations. Perhaps what I needed was a standard of comparison. Perhaps I was in need of some perspective.

As I placed the more intense gem amongst dozens of different pink sapphires of various hues and tonalities the one gem that stood out like a sore thumb amongst all of them was - you guessed it - the one the lab called a "Natural Pink Sapphire." There was nothing ""Pink Sapphire-ish" about this gem at all and any child could see that on a cloudy day.

What's going on? What is plain to see is that there is no real convergence of opinion at the labs as to what is a Padparadscha. At this time, allow me to take a stand and suggest the following standards for answering the question "What is a Padparadscha?"

TIER 1) TRADITIONAL COLLECTABLE NATURAL PADPARADSCHA (STRICTEST) An unheated Sri Lankan Sapphire which exhibits a color combination of pink and orange in any proportion as long as both colors are obvious and blend together. This would include the whole gamut of tones from pale apricot to deep Hawaiian sunset. The primary color could be either pink or orange but the secondary color must be clearly apparent. Too much brown would disqualify the gem from this category altogether.

TIER 2) COLLECTABLE NATURAL PADPARADSCHA (STRICT) Any unheated Sapphire regardless of country of origin that exhibits the color combination as stated above. I have seen many superb Madagascan, Vietnamese and African gems that hold their own next to Sri Lankan gems. I consider these gems to be valuable treasures unto themselves as long as they are a) beautiful and b) without enhancement.

TIER 3) PADPARADSCHA (INCLUSIVE) This category would include any sapphire that exhibits the color combination above including any country of origin. This category covers heat-treated gems but not those gems whose treatments are beryllium or diffusion based.

Finally, the word Padparadscha itself irks me as a term being used on lab certificates. While I will be the first to admit to have profited by it's presence in lab documents over the years, I also contend that it's romantic nature has led to scientific ambivalence and confusion. Let's address these precious rarities by what they really are. They are pink- orange Sapphires with little or no brown secondaries. Will that affect their rarity? No. Will it alter their beauty? By no means? Will it lessen the confusion surrounding the use of this term as a standard? I for one believe it will.

 

[velouriaL]

Thanks for posting that article. Great reading. I learn something new every time this issue comes up.

 

[Sagebrush]

Ana,

I would want certificates from everyone plus his first born as hostage if those orange stones ain't Be. diffused.

 

[katbadness]

velourial, no prob. I follow pad sapphire discussions closely, coz it''s one one of my favorite stones!

Here''s an old discussion regarding what can be considered a pad sapphire on this Colored Gem forum.

 

[TKC]

Date: 7/8/2005 8:46:43 AM
Author: valeria101
No.. I don''t know that much.

What is this ? I have yet to see a sample in person, but these hazy stones seem to glow in the dark. If these have no story as yet, perhaps they deserve one.

Madagascar, heat only at Imperialjewels.com.

Most of the Be-diffused sapphires are very bright and attractive, but I don''t judge that the sapphire above is Be-diffused sapphire because heated only or unheated sapphires can come in bright color as well. Some Be-diffused sapphires have claudy looking (inside the stone) and some are really clean. I think the very high heat temperature can make the sapphires either claudy (which is the same look as flux produced synthetic sapphires) or very clean (melt all the cracks inside the stones). I believe it is very hard to detect whether a sapphire has been Be-diffused or not if there is not shallow color in the stone (I am talking about high heat temperature heated stones). And, I believe most of the gem labs require using SIMS to detect the treatment of the sapphires at this time.

 

[colorchange]

Yes, but imperial jewels have been selling so many orange sapphires, and at such price that I would bet 1000$ to anybody that this one is Be-Heated... and by the way, impreialjewels know what a lab is (they sometimes show certificate) so I would tend to think that if there is no certificate (at this price they may well go to GRS for instance) the gem is Be-Heated.

 

[velouriaL]

My roommate and I were looking at this threa and she loved the look of the Be-treated sapphire. She''s not a gem fanatic and would love to have one, as long as she paid a fair (i.e., low) price for it. Any reason for someone like her to avoid Be-treated stones?

 

[rubydick]

Date: 7/8/2005 12:20:53 PM
Author: Richard W. Wise
Ana,

I would want certificates from everyone plus his first born as hostage if those orange stones ain''t Be. diffused.

I''m with Richard on this one. That stone of Yingh''s looks mighty suspicious. Very possibly beryllium diffused, but only a proper lab exam can answer the question. For more info, see:

The skin game

As for the definition of pad, as others have mentioned, it is still a matter of heated debate, even among experts. I''ve discussed some of the issues here:

Walking the line in ruby & sapphire

Jerry Green and Ricky Orbach also summarized the issues nicely in their piece (the Cherrypicked.com note).

Suffice to say that most experts agree that a pad is a blend of yellow sapphire and ruby, with no traces of brown. A marriage between a lotus flower and a sunset.

The boundaries and saturation levels are something that experts have yet to reach consensus on.

 

[TKC]

Here is my unheated light orange sapphire. The actual color is light orange color with a slight pinkish hue (obvious). The color is hard to capture with my camera because it is still sealed (covered with plastic). Probably, you guys can still see the slight pinkish hue on both sides (not the center of the stone). I don''t know if this can be called light Pad. sapphire

Any of you has ever heard light Pad. sapphires? And, is there any new way to detect Be diffused sapphires without using SIMS? I mean a new gem equipment, not just experts'' opinion?

 

[Sagebrush]

So Dick,
Since you have weighed in on this issue, what is the AGTA Lab's definition of padparadscha?

 

[valeria101]

He, he !

That sapphire surely did get the right amount of expert critique... It looks treated of course, but this time the seller decided to leave 'heat only' in their presentation of the stone while other pieces have received 'Be-heat' labels. I am not sure that the respective choice of words made me really doubt the obvious and hope that this could have really come out of the ground this bright. It doesn't cost anything to ask, for better or worse

and I have asked the seller as well by now.

Attempting the 'roommate' question (Velouria's), oh well... these look pretty fake from a distance. There's barely anything in nature resembling those colors so wearing one is not too different from wearing, say, rainbow topaz (another syntetic/treated that has no natural counterpart remotely similar). Perhaps some examples are more credible than others or perhaps this is beyond the point - all is left to personal choice here. There is no right or wrong as far as I can tell. The stones are pretty, sure that. And not cheap at all. If substance is not a concern, than 10 carat lab pad sounds better to me than 10 ct Be treated, not to mention the ten fold price difference. For small, fun pieces... whatever does, really. Now, set one of those large lab/painted ones in a classic setting between two large diamond sides and perhaps many would just admire the looks no questions asked. There is room for anything, I guess. Just my 0.2.

 

[colorchange]

http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10262&item=5012161979&tc=photo
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10264&item=5010878295&tc=photo
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10264&item=5011227039&tc=photo
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10262&item=5012589028&tc=photo
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10262&item=5012161793&tc=photo

For those that doubt on the 10 Ct , I guess all the "heat only" above are not Be-Heated either

Thi guy must have found a mine of orange sapphires, he''s been listing orange like that for one month.

 

[valeria101]

Date: 7/11/2005 9:58:22 AM
Author: colorchange

Thi guy must have found a mine of orange sapphires, he's been listing orange like that for one month.

Gotcha !!

there's plenty on offer like that, unfortunately...

Imperiajewels has not answered yet althugh someone from this shop has written on Pricescope recently.

I would agree any day that BeDiffused sapphires are a notch above high end syntetics and that the supply restrictions involved (esp. natural sapphire of a certain quality used as rough material) limits size and quantity more than themaking of lab sapphire limits competing products and so prices have a reason to be higher. I have seen prices per carat higher than that (1k and a bit) for Be diffused pieces around 5 cts. Up to 2k. No idea if these sell at that price or not, but someone tried to make that case at least. To each his own, I guess.

From a slightly different perspective, large and obviously beautiful pieces such as that might benefit from disclosure. Otherwise, who says that isn't syntetic sapphire (i.e. insulation material) that has been colored by Be diffusion ? If the merit of these stones is their natural background, than certification should prove that. In this and other cases, such proof would be worth allot on top of the dreaded syntetic-level price. Of course, certification would also brush off any hope/expectation/wishful thinking that these might be 'heat only'. Anyway, 'to each his own' applies again.

 

[BWise]

The sapphires I posted was indeed purchased from imperialjewels. After joining discussions in this thread, I emailed them specifically questioned on the treatment method and askem to attest their statement. Here is their response:

Quote "Many thanks for your email. They are heated in the regular old sense. There are quite a lot of orange sapphires from Madagascar in the market this due to a production glut that is far higher than normal." End of quote.

I am happy to believe them unless someone can give a good reason not to. I am not going to call my sapphires pad color but orangy red instead. It doesn''t really matter because they were bought at a reasonable price and I will enjoy the bright color as they are. I don''t think we need to be too obssesed with the name ''pad'' until we are talking about selling them at the price of ''pad''.

Thanks for all the expert opinions and reading materials, it has been very helpful nonetheless.

 

[BWise]

TKC, I think your sapphire can be called a ''pad'' - if that makes you happy. From your not-so-clear pics, it does carry pink tone with a little orange touch. Enjoy it!

 

[colorchange]

To find out wether he is sincere, just ask him if he would take one similar gem for certification to AIGS (at your expense if the result prooves the gem heat only) as he is already regularly bringing gems to AIGS (he shows the certificates in his auctions).

If you have one with AIGS saying it''s beeing heat only, anyway, I would buy loool.

To me, the chances that imperialjewels be selling "real" orange sapphires in such a quantity is thin, and I would add that he wouldn''t like to sell these at the price of an average Be-Heated sapphire as he is doing, while with a certificate from the AIGS, he would sell http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&category=10262&item=5012161793&tc=photo at over $500 easily and he won''t get more than $50.