What''s a Pad Sapphire ?

[valeria101]

I know AGTA makes a note on sapphire certs whenever they feel a stone with reddish-orange hue is a Pad. But what is their criteria (range of tone and saturation, I suppose) for awarding the name?

I have visited Richard Hughes'' argument that hue alone is not enough to qualify the name... but still. There''s brownish-orange African sapphire being presented as "Padparach" instead of "muddy red". And then Be diffusion produces unbelievable reddish-orange color. Where did this game leave Pad prices?

 

[katbadness]

Heh.. You posted my question.. Thanks Ana!

Anyway... I have seen quite a color range as to what people consider as padparadscha.. Some of the ones I have seen could justifiably be thought of as padparadscha (having a blend of pink and orange), some others not.

So, I'd like to add a few other questions to the one already posed by Ana..

Is there an actual color range to padparadscha? Or is this a nomenclature that's based on the dealers' whim (with consumers having to pay more due to the name in the end, obviously)?

 

[mogok]

There is no strict definition of the term "padparadsha". It is supposed to be the same color as a lotus flower in Sri Lanka. To my knowledge it is so supposed to be a mix of light pink, yellow and orange. The color should come from a mix of iron, chromium and color centers.
"Padparadsha" is an old term as "cornflower", "pigeon Blood",...

The usual definition I give to my students in AIGS is the following: it is the term used by many people when they sell a stone that they have bought as "pink or orange sapphires" to other people in order to maximise their profit.

but if you want to go deeper, I've heard a bout a very good study on the subject by Franck Notari for his D.U.G. in Nantes university under the suppervision of Emmenuel Fritsch. I did not had the chance to read his work but I hope to be able to read it this winter in France. Franck Notari has a gemological laboratory in Geneva, Switzerland: gemtechlab...
May be try to contact him!

All the best,

 

[valeria101]

Hm... let's see how this sounds:

" Dear Franck,
Would you be so kind and allow access to your thesis to a young economist who would very much enjoy collecting the latest research on Padparatch sapphire ? "

bad, right

but I'm trying!

 

[katbadness]

----------------
On 5/22/2004 12:52:16 PM valeria101 wrote:

Hm... let's see how this sounds:

' Dear Franck,
Would you be so kind and allow access to your thesis to a young economist who would very much enjoy collecting the latest research on Padparatch sapphire ? '

bad, right

but I'm trying!
----------------

Hey.. I'll second that letter!

I vote to changing the 'young economist' to '2 sapphire-mad gem nuts'!

What's the harm in educating 2 gem nuts about the intricacies of pad sapphires? We already rub shoulders with the likes of Gary (Cut Nut) and Sergei on the diamond end of the forum...

I'd love to get similar education on the colored gem end of the spectrum!!

 

[mogok]

Hello,

Well nobody is god, and I'm sure that you can explain to him the reasons you are willing him to send you a copy of his work!
I will never refuse such a thing, and I think he might not as he has a lab and this kind of kindness will not hurt his business...
Tell him a little bit about pricescope and I'm sure that he will be more than happy to have some nice press from you here for his work and his lab!

All the best,

 

[WinkHPD]

Dittos.

Some of the nicest people I know in the gem world came from me simply walking up to them at trade shows and introducing myself or from letters not unlike that which you suggest. We are in a business of making people happy, and you will find that most people in the trade are very giving people.

Once you get the courage to send him a nice letter and a request, then do not be surprised when you get the answer you seek.

Wink

 

[mogok]

Agreed Wink,

Most of the succesful people I've met in gemstone business whatever dont really deals with gems... They deal with people! Gems are just passing through them but they care their reputation, their image... more than the stones they buy and sell. Most gem dealers have quite a low knowledge on gemstones but are expert in people! As they have usually an important ego also, there are many way to make them be very nice with you!
In the case of Franck Notari its different: this guy knows well about gemstones, but he has a good reputation laboratory in Geneva (Switzerland) and as a lab is data and communication: I dont see any good reason why he would refuse to send you a copy of his work in Nantes university.
I'm sure that Franck Notari will be happy to help you and make by the same way some promotion for his laboratory!
All the best,

 

[katbadness]

Mogok,

Thank you for the info on Franck Notari. I have just decided to send an email to see if I can obtain the research paper you mentioned.

This should be very interesting reading, indeed.

 

[gem-shopper]

I am looking at acquiring 2 stones -- a pad sapphire and a paraiba tourmaline. What should I expect to pay per caret for these? Both are good quality (untreated), nice color and around 2 carets. Thanks, Jane

 

[katbadness]

----------------
On 5/27/2004 8:52:59 PM gem-shopper wrote:

I am looking at acquiring 2 stones -- a pad sapphire and a paraiba tourmaline. What should I expect to pay per caret for these? Both are good quality (untreated), nice color and around 2 carets. Thanks, Jane----------------

I'm curious...
Where are you looking to purchase them? Send me a PM (private message) if you will.

(I'd say both are my favorite colored gems!)

 

[valeria101]

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On 5/27/2004 8:52:59 PM gem-shopper wrote:



I am looking at acquiring 2 stones -- a pad sapphire and a paraiba tourmaline.

----------------

The two might look nice one near the other, but I have never, ever seen piece of jewelry combining the two! Besides, thw two types are staples of the advocates of "investment gems" - I hope this is not what you are after. Thought I'd better ask

 

[gem-shopper]

I'm not sure what you mean by investment stones. I am not planning to sell these stones once I acquire them. Yes I was thinking of putting the two together.

 

[katbadness]

----------------
On 5/28/2004 3:53:59 PM gem-shopper wrote:
I'm not sure what you mean by investment stones. I am not planning to sell these stones once I acquire them. Yes I was thinking of putting the two together. ----------------

Oh my!

Do you have pictures of what they look like?

Having them together in a ring is definitely a dream ring for me!!

 

[Matata]

Oh geez. Paraiba and pad together would be almost too pretty to look at. Yes, please post pics of your stones once purchased. Couldn't resist posting a couple of pics for color comparison but I don't know how to get them side by side.

 

[Matata]

paraiba

 

[katbadness]

Oy! I'm drooling here..

I l

ove *both* pad and paraiba.

 

[Matata]

Katbadness -- we are nearly identical in our tastes. I, however, suffer from "champagne taste, beer budget" syndrome which means that if I ever am lucky enough to own either a pad or a paraiba or both they would be microscopic in size. Too bad for me cause I like 'em big!

 

[sylvesterii]

gem-shopper,

Do you (or your husband if you are a female) play for the miami dolphins, cause those colors are spot on!

 

[gem-shopper]

No -- I am a Panthers fan. I am a cat lover and raise Tonkinese -- the only breed with aqua eyes, so naturally the Paraiba Tourmaline stole my breath. And my daughter fell for a pink (with shades of orange)Pad. Since both stones were pastel, I thought they would be dynamite together. Gem-shopper

 

[rubydick]

For a discussion of padparadscha, see this link:

Walking the Line in Ruby & Sapphire

In the end, there are no satisfactory definitions for terms such as padparadscha or pigeon's blood because such terms were never rigorously defined in the beginning.

Looking at gems is akin to enjoying a painting or a sunset. Preferences are a subjective matter. I personally find the rich papaya pads from Vietnam and East Africa superior in beauty to those from Sri Lanka, but many buyers would argue otherwise. Who is right? There is no right or wrong. Use your own eyes. If you like something, buy it.

 

[katbadness]

Welcome to the forum, rubydick!

Probably unbeknownst to you, your name (and Pala's name) has come up quite a few times whenever the topic of sapphire comes up.

We'd love it if you can stick around.. we'd appreciate the wealth of knowledge you can offer.

 

[mogok]

I cannot agree more Richard!
Nice to see you here, I've travelled 2 years with your book "ruby and sapphire" in my briefcase before to become gemologist... Thanks to have written it!
By the way are you working on an updated version with all the new stones coming from Burma, Madagascar, Tanzania and the new treatments?
Just asking...

All the best,

 

[rubydick]

Appreciate the kind words, from the both Vincent and Sintha. Happened across this forum today and yes, will try to stick around a bit.

Regarding my book, also yes, working on an update. Just back from a month in Mogok, Nanyazeik, Hpakan and Pailin. Very wet!

Always looking for new info and would appreciate anything you could send my way.

All the best and many thanks for the warm welcome.

 

[yowahking]

Congrats Mogok on the promotion, welcome Richard and thanks again for the PM.
If the lady is considering setting both stones, the Pad is easy to set, the Pariaba, find someone who not only has set them before but will assume the risk to set it. Downside to the material is it is a little brittle when bending prongs or triangular v caps. The pricetag scares jewelers who know it can not be replaced very easily. Not as many grey hairs as setting appatite which looks similar. My setters always think I am angry with them when I hand them appatite.
While pad colors vary from dealer and country, there are certain colors and hues which dealers love. What you love may or may not be what they love. With the new treatments, there is more orangish sapphire out there than ever before.

 

[mhread]

I almost feel like I should not dare make a post regarding sapphire seeing as Richard W. Hughes has posted in the room. I don’t think you could have wished for a more knowledgeable poster on the subject. Also, with Mogok posting, you will get some outstanding information – I learn from him almost everyday on another forum.

However this is of course the best way to learn, so I will post my own 10c. As the padparadscha is not a valid mineral species in its own right, it becomes a subjective judgment in colour. And as Mogok points out – if there is money to be made, it will be sold as a padparadscha if it makes a higher profit. I feel that if it’s orangy/pink or pinky orange, you have as much right to call it a pad as any one else. But the old lotus flower analogy would describe those stones that fetch the highest prices.

One point for Jane – most of the neon Paraiba tourmaline is in fact heated, so I would be surprised if it was uncooked. Much of the uncooked material is a pale amethyst colour – like that cheap “rose de france” material that seems to be making itself popular. ID of Paraiba used to be simple. It’s a cuprian (copper bearing) Elbaite, and it had only been found in two locations in Northeast Region of brazil.

1) São José da Batalha, Paraíba (produced most of the gem quality material)
2) Rio Grande do Norte (two mines producing the mineral species)

However, since the discovery of Cuprian Elbaite in Oyo State Nigeria (Edoukou Mine), things are a little more complicated. The colours are less neon than the Paraiba material, but there are some very fine specimens to be had. However – and here is the real pitfall – Paraiba carries up to a 10X premium over the Nigerian material – so you find some Nigerian turning up as Paraiba.

Be very careful buying this stuff, and make sure you get what you pay for. Insist on a cert that specifies origin, or have a return clause if it tests Nigerian.

(See how I cleverly skirted round the sapphires posts, and went straight to my comfort zone of tourmaline? )

Martin
knowledgeable poster on the subject.

 

[elmo]

Wow, look at all the serious contributions...this little corner of the pricescope universe is starting to become a happenin' place.

 

[katbadness]

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On 9/28/2004 10:21:46 AM elmo wrote:

Wow, look at all the serious contributions...this little corner of the pricescope universe is starting to become a happenin' place.
----------------

Yup... apparently some higher-powers-that-be heard these (old) wishes...

----------------
On 5/22/2004 6:31:05 PM katbadness wrote:

----------------
On 5/22/2004 12:52:16 PM valeria101 wrote:

Hm... let's see how this sounds:

' Dear Franck,
Would you be so kind and allow access to your thesis to a young economist who would very much enjoy collecting the latest research on Padparatch sapphire ? '

bad, right

but I'm trying!
----------------

Hey.. I'll second that letter!

I vote to changing the 'young economist' to '2 sapphire-mad gem nuts'!

What's the harm in educating 2 gem nuts about the intricacies of pad sapphires? We already rub shoulders with the likes of Gary (Cut Nut) and Sergei on the diamond end of the forum...

I'd love to get similar education on the colored gem end of the spectrum!!

----------------

 

[mogok]

----------------
On 9/27/2004 11:38:32 PM rubydick wrote:


Regarding my book, also yes, working on an update. Just back from a month in Mogok, Nanyazeik, Hpakan and Pailin. Very wet!

Always looking for new info and would appreciate anything you could send my way.----------------

Hello Richard, Martin, Scott and other pricescope visitors,

Well, it was long time Richard you did not came to Burma, isnt it?
It is all the time great for me to put a foot on the "golden land"... From what I've read from you, I guess it is the same! I'm very happy to know you went back to these places you make me dream about when your were writting in "Gemological digest"! I was a real fan... and all your writting from Bangkok made me think that it was the place to come to learn about gems! I was not disapointed at all and I want personally to thanks you as without your writtings, that make me study here and become a gemologist, I would not have such an interesting life in South East Asia now.

By the way, did you had any problem with the American ban on Burma? Everybody there was worried about your boss, Bill Larson, not to be able to come because of the ban and the interdiction (?) for american citizen to make business in Burma...
I ask this question as I've some american students here wishing to join me on my next field trip to Burma but they worry about that... I told them that if Bill could go so they might be able to go, but may be you can confirm that... They would appreciate your comments on that matter!

Mogok, Hpakant, Namya (or Nanyaseik) in Burma and Pailin in Cambodia are great places to visit for any gemstone lover. I've to say Richard that I've dream about these places reading your writting about them in your excellent "ruby and sapphire" book that I recommend to all my students.

If anybody want to have a look to what you can see currently: Have a look to the following pages i just put on line during the last few weeks:

Pailin (Cambodia)
Pailin and its mines
trekking near pailin to ruby and sapphire mines
Heat treatment in Pailin

Mogok (Burma)
A field trip to Mogok
Mogok, its mines, lanscapes and people

More photos from Mogok will be added in the coming days (I'm taking photos like a crazy guy each trip there!), for Namya (Nanyazeik) and Hpakant things will come latter as i want to complete the Mogok slide show first and uploading all these photos take long time!

Richard, anyway if you need some help on your new book update, I would be happy to contribute of course.

All the best,

 

[Richard Sherwood]

Hey Richard (W. Hughes)! Nice to have you posting. Stick around, you'll enjoy this place.

I'm still lugging your book around in my laptop case. Best piece of gemological work to come around in the last twenty years.

Martin, I enjoyed your info. As far as I'm concerned, the more you post the better.