Can’t decide between these unheated royal blue sapphires

[poppystar]

Hi all

I’m new to this forum and very new to the world of gemstones.

4 months ago I started my search for an unheated blue sapphire to set for a wedding anniversary ring.

Right now I have shortlisted 3 sapphires, but I feel rather undecided so I’d be grateful for everyone’s views

Sapphire 1: 7ct Madagascar unheated royal blue, $35000
Really like this but I wonder whether it would hold its value less than a Burma royal blue

Sapphire 2: 4.25ct Burma unheated royal blue, $32000
I like this but I’m a bit wary as to why it’s so much cheaper than Sapphire 3 (same origin and almost same weight)

Sapphire 3: 4.6ct Burma unheated royal blue, $50000
My favourite but it also means busting my budget

Ps: I’ve read a lot of lit about unheated and heated sapphires and I prefer unheated sapphires so all my shortlisted sapphires are unheated

 

[VividRed]

Before you set yourself on this short list - are you aware that with this kind of money you can get much livelier stones? These are extremely dark; almost black. If this is what you want, you can cut your budget in half and get the same material. Otherwise, you can stay on this sort of budget and get much lighter and vivid blue sapphires.

Not judging your taste, you do you of course, but don’t overpay!

 

[poppystar]

yup I know what u mean, actually the stones look a lot more vivid and less dark in person. But somehow the photos didn’t turn out great

 

[chrono]

Can you post all three stones/rings side by side? It would help a lot in comparing them against each other. Having accurate pictures is also important so if these are not true to life, everyone will be unable to advise accordingly.

 

[ShinyPink]

Where are you located? And are you comfortable with an online vendor sourcing a stone?

 

[Bron357]

Generally speaking, the Burmese sapphires would hold a premium price over Madagascar as long as they are typical of the source ie vivid Royal blue.
And remember the price you are paying is retail, if you ever went to sell any of those sapphires the amount you would realise would be many many thousands less.
With sapphires it’s treatment, size and colour and to a lesser extent cut and origin (except Kashmir). Unheated is premium provided it is accompanied by a reputable lab report.
Colour is subjective, some people prefer a dark sapphires, others pastel but “vividness” is a desirable.
Buy what you love but realise that buying at retail means resale value will be a lot less should you choose / need to sell. Gemstones are not investments unless you have something very rare and very desirable AND you bought it cheap.

 

[lovedogs]

I think they are extremely dark. Much too dark for so much money (in my opinion).

 

[poppystar]

Generally speaking, the Burmese sapphires would hold a premium price over Madagascar as long as they are typical of the source ie vivid Royal blue.
And remember the price you are paying is retail, if you ever went to sell any of those sapphires the amount you would realise would be many many thousands less.
With sapphires it’s treatment, size and colour and to a lesser extent cut and origin (except Kashmir). Unheated is premium provided it is accompanied by a reputable lab report.
Colour is subjective, some people prefer a dark sapphires, others pastel but “vividness” is a desirable.
Buy what you love but realise that buying at retail means resale value will be a lot less should you choose / need to sell. Gemstones are not investments unless you have something very rare and very desirable AND you bought it cheap.

Thanks! Appreciate your view
For me, I just want to buy something that will hold its value 10-20 years later
Definitely want to buy something rare, desirable and cheap but it seems pretty difficult to get anything good on the cheap these days
The 3 sapphires all come with GRS certs, Sapp 1 is meant to be a good buy as it is (apparently) wholesale price whereas Sapp 2 and 3 are retail

 

[poppystar]

Can you post all three stones/rings side by side? It would help a lot in comparing them against each other. Having accurate pictures is also important so if these are not true to life, everyone will be unable to advise accordingly.

Thanks! The stones are with diff dealers so I don’t have them with me
I have videos of the stones but seems we can only post pics

 

[poppystar]

Thanks everyone for your views
I realise I should have posted better pics but these are really screen grabs from videos I have
Can anyone give some views on the max prices I should expect to pay for good quality Burma sapphire, Ceylon sapphire and Madagascar sapphire, assuming they are all unheated and royal blue?

 

[lovedogs]

1. These stones are unlikely to hold their value. Do not buy gemstones as investments. They are more like cars and they depreciate in value immediately (unless you have something museum quality).
2. If you upload the videos to youtube or imgur you can post the links here directly. That will help a lot.

Unfortunately we can't really give an answer about prices because there are so many factors. Cut, tone, report (e.g. do they have a report, and from where), etc.

 

[T L]

I don't care for any of them, way too too dark, if the photos are accurate. Someone is overcharging based on origin. Color is king, and I rather have a drop dead gorgeous African stone than a blue black Burmese gem.

 

[LilAlex]

I like that top one. I like the rectangular cushion and it seems very vivid. I like the face-up proportions (but of course can not gauge depth). If it is a phone photo, then all bets are off in terms of color; however, you saw them with your own eyes.

Hard to say too much from these random photos. I doubt that they look black IRL.

If they are all medium-dark tone (I am inferring) and are all GRS royal, that says something. GRS is generous with that designation but they should all be attractive. This would be the expected tone for Burma and dark for Madagascar, imo.

I infer that you are not in the US. At that price-point (and what I infer to be your level of expertise and/or confidence), it can be helpful to have access to a less biased eye than just the seller's. A number of folks here have asked Inken (in NYC) to source a bigger-ticket stone. There may be others elsewhere.

Also at that price point (esp for Burma), you should have a GIA, AGL, Gubelin, or SSEF origin report, imo. GRS is "good" but if you are paying a 2X Burma premium, most would want greater assurance. For Madagascar, I suspect that GRS is fine.

Dimensions would help, too. With that darker tone, a little less worry about window/tilt window, etc., but would give us a lot more to work with -- whether over-deep or too shallow. Facet diagram (does GRS do that?) would help with that, too. I infer that they are all mixed cut. Are any precision-cut?

You say nothing about clarity and that has a huge impact on price but maybe not that big an impact on appearance in a medium-dark stone. The type and location of inclusions can affect the mounting style to which a stone is suited. Also nothing about color zoning, which would also impact price.

"Retail" and "wholesale" from the same seller? Seems unlikely unless he/she owns one stone and the others are from the shop down the block. In the latter instance, two people need to profit from the same sale. Of course you would never get actual "wholesale" -- they just mean (perhaps) more competitive pricing or an undisclosed flaw.

The age of the reports and some information about the stones' respective backstories can be helpful.

None are investments, and I am not saying that because of the price. They will retain some value for sure. They will be impossible to sell without consigning or accepting a lowball offer. I would not count on appreciation in the future. The nice thing about these is that, assuming their quality warrants the current price-point, they are desirable and would catch a vendor's eye down the line. A lovely 5-ct unheated GRS royal is a nice thing to have. (Understatement ). A heated, mediocre, 1.5-ct sapphire is commercial-grade and no seller would ever need yours.

Exciting opportunity! With that healthy budget, you should be able to find something that you really love. If it is not one of these three, keep looking!

 

[dk168]

Too dark for me personally, so I'd pass.

DK

 

[lmyracle]

Those are a bit dark for me too, especially with that kind of $.

 

[T L]

The term “royal blue” probably comes from Princess Diana’s ring, which imho, is too dark, and I never cared for it. It may be the most unphotogenic gem ever because there’s a bazillion pictures of it and it always looks like charcoal with a flash of blue to me. That gem is probably responsible for more overly inferior dark sapphires getting sold for $$$ than one can realize. Instead of looking for “royal blue,” just look for the best color you can afford, and do not overpay for blackish stones, if that’s what you like. By the way, too bad that Diana didn’t get Beyoncé’s ring!

 

[qubitasaurus]

I'm afraid they are too dark to hold their value -- in the sense that the asking price is too high given how dark the sapphires are. I can only suggest you look for comparisons. Search Ivy New York, Era gems, Langs antiques, Enhoerning. None of these are cheap, but I don't think they'll be more expensive than what you're currently looking at paying.

 

[CBianco]

Inken from Enhoerning Jewelry in NY just listed this stone:

3.03 ct Unheated Burma Sapphire, AGL — Enhoerning Jewelry

www.enhoerning-jewelry.com

It's a bit smaller than the ones you've posted in OP, but I believe it's around your budget and also comes with AGL report confirming the unheated burmese status. With that budget of yours it's definitely worth it to take a look around.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

You're paying a very high premium for these particular stones. They won't appreciate in value, gemstones generally don't unless there are extraneous circumstances. If anything, you could lose up to 25-30% when, and if, you ever sell.

5.32 carat, Blue, Sri Lankan Sapphire, Oval Shape, CD, SKU 482658

5.32 carat, Blue, Oval shape Sapphire, graded by CD. A rich Blue Gemstone that is a really beautiful stone. For more information about this item please contact our customer service department.

www.leibish.com

Everyone has spoken true and they've given some great advice/sources. There are some beautiful sapphires out there. For fun go to 1stdibs.com
https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rin...-certified-unheated-ceylon-ring/id-j_6809322/ and look at their sapphire rings(many antique houses post there and you can make offers as they are generally a bit overpriced) Don't settle, you can get an amazing specimen for your budget.

 

[poppystar]

You're paying a very high premium for these particular stones. They won't appreciate in value, gemstones generally don't unless there are extraneous circumstances. If anything, you could lose up to 25-30% when, and if, you ever sell.

5.32 carat, Blue, Sri Lankan Sapphire, Oval Shape, CD, SKU 482658

5.32 carat, Blue, Oval shape Sapphire, graded by CD. A rich Blue Gemstone that is a really beautiful stone. For more information about this item please contact our customer service department.

www.leibish.com

Everyone has spoken true and they've given some great advice/sources. There are some beautiful sapphires out there. For fun go to 1stdibs.com
https://www.1stdibs.com/jewelry/rin...-certified-unheated-ceylon-ring/id-j_6809322/ and look at their sapphire rings(many antique houses post there and you can make offers as they are generally a bit overpriced) Don't settle, you can get an amazing specimen for your budget.

thanks! Looking at the LEIBISH stone, it seems to be a lighter shade of blue? It looks beautiful, but tbh I’m quite attracted to the royal blue shade, it’s like how Richard Hughes described it in his book, it just draws me in

I have checked out LEIBISH and other sites, but it seems to me not many jewellers have Burma unheated royal blues, and that’s what the seller of Sapp 3 told me - that Burma unheated royal blues are v rare in the market these days so he has no choice but to offer it to me at such a high markup (obvious sales pitch but I’m not a dealer or miner that’s why I’m checking here)

It would be an easy thing for me to say no to Sapp 3, except it did look v good in real life

And I’m also confused by the pricing of Sapp 2 - it’s a very similar size to Sapp 3 yet it’s a lot cheaper (a friend of mine who saw Sapp 2 said it’s cos Sapp 2 has some grey in it) but the experts at GRS gave Sapp 2 and 3 the same royal blue certification so hrmmmm

 

[demantoidz]

Keep in mind that even top goods can struggle to retain their value. See for example this fine 10.88ct Kashmir sapphire (Kashmir being the most prestigious sapphire origin, plus in a weight excess of 10ct):

Important Kashmir Sapphire and Diamond Ring

Tiancheng International Auctioneer Limited (Tiancheng International) is a Hong Kong-based auction company dedicated to the diverse needs of Asian collectors. Founded in one of the world's leading art and auction centres, Tiancheng International is led by a visionary management group and an...

www.tianchengauction.com

The sale occured in 2014 for 11,800,000 HKD which is 13,678,000 HKD adjusted for 2020 and converts to 1,755,000 USD today (couldn't find a calculator for HKD to USD for the year 2020)

Now its being retailed for 1,500,000: https://www.shrevecrumpandlow.com/p...lue-kashmir-sapphire-ring-w-diamonds-platinum

And I’m also confused by the pricing of Sapp 2 - it’s a very similar size to Sapp 3 yet it’s a lot cheaper (a friend of mine who saw Sapp 2 said it’s cos Sapp 2 has some grey in it) but the experts at GRS gave Sapp 2 and 3 the same royal blue certification so hrmmmm

GRS is very lax with their designations. Seems like every ruby that comes out of there is designated pigeon blood. There was recently a bit of discussion on this topic here.

How does the real pigeon blood ruby should look like?

What do you PSers think pigeon blood ruby look like? I have seen a very large range of colors being referred as pigeon blood ruby. From a pinkish red to a near black red. Any opinion?

www.pricescope.com

 

[VividRed]

With all due respect for gem labs, I have seen they vivid red / pigeon blood rubies that would hide perfectly in a parcel of unimpressive garnets. Same for royal blue - Color types are not standardized and some labs are more generous than others.

 

[icy_jade]

9 ct royal blue set in ring… and cheaper than the option 3. Burmese unheat. Not my stone but I saw it just the other day.

The other two are unheat cornflowers. I think Sri Lanka.

 

[ItsMainelyYou]

thanks! Looking at the LEIBISH stone, it seems to be a lighter shade of blue? It looks beautiful, but tbh I’m quite attracted to the royal blue shade, it’s like how Richard Hughes described it in his book, it just draws me in

I have checked out LEIBISH and other sites, but it seems to me not many jewellers have Burma unheated royal blues, and that’s what the seller of Sapp 3 told me - that Burma unheated royal blues are v rare in the market these days so he has no choice but to offer it to me at such a high markup (obvious sales pitch but I’m not a dealer or miner that’s why I’m checking here)

It would be an easy thing for me to say no to Sapp 3, except it did look v good in real life

And I’m also confused by the pricing of Sapp 2 - it’s a very similar size to Sapp 3 yet it’s a lot cheaper (a friend of mine who saw Sapp 2 said it’s cos Sapp 2 has some grey in it) but the experts at GRS gave Sapp 2 and 3 the same royal blue certification so hrmmmm

Usually, in this carat weight, it'll be more of a concierge service as most regular jewelers don't have a bevy of large unheated stones kicking around. They can get them, though. Some of the sources listed in this thread do provide this service. Another really good rule of thumb is to expect your sapphire to darken down once set. It's a good idea to mentally account for that while you're getting eyeballs on any stone. So, take that Leibish stone- it will look a little darker once set. If you love the royal- then aim for one/two shades lighter to get that deep tone you're after. Also, color is subjective; certifications can also be subjective with color designation and small differences resulting in huge differences in price. That will partly be what you end up weighing before putting your money down. Is it worth this price color wise, to me? You're the one wearing this and it has to sing for you. Industry standards are a good guide, but they aren't everything.
It's also more time consuming to find your blue sapphire and that's completely normal. Don't rush.
Yes, he's trying to sell you something- of course he'll justify his markup and try to finesse some urgency- that's just business. The blue light play you see will be almost nonexistent unless under strong store lighting/sun.
The stones he's offering you will look really dark once set(they are already under intense lighting and they're blacking out)-not usually the most desirable color when thinking sapphire, all said and done. Unless your heart is set on these, I would keep looking.

 

[Avondale]

tbh I’m quite attracted to the royal blue shade

And that's completely fine. There's absolutely nothing wrong with liking a dark blue stone. But, allow me to try to illustrate with yet another example what everyone else is trying to say.

Take a look at this stone: https://www.instagram.com/p/CV4s4q9gD5d/
Now that's royal blue through and through (at least on screen... reality can always differ). See how the royal blue is basically all you can see? Slides 1 and 2 are videos of the same stone. Slide 3 is a picture of a different stone where you can see the effect of the dark tone and how the sapphire blacks out - it has areas that are so completely dark they look black. That is typically less desirable in a sapphire and lowers the price of the stone. And that is precisely what's happening with all the sapphires you have pictures of.

You see, what everyone else is saying isn't that the stones are too dark to be considered desirable and pretty, as this is entirely subjective. But they are too dark to be considered trade ideal (or anything close to it) and too dark to be sold at the premium that's usually slapped on trade ideal colour.

Stones with a dark tone sell because they offer a price compromise. I have a similar one, albeit smaller, about 2ct. If it didn't have any dark undertone and was all vibrant and with no shadowing, it would easily cost 2-3 times more than what I paid for it. But you see, seems like here someone is trying to sell you a dark sapphire and price it as if it was top colour, all the while arguing that origin and lack of treatment alone justify this.

Long story short, it's not fair to you. Look around. See what else is available because you do have a generous budget and can shoot for the moon. And if in the end you decide that this dark blue is precisely the colour you desire, then at least you'll know to pay way less for it and spend the rest of your budget on something else that's nice.

 

[demantoidz]

Here's a side by side comparison between the desirable royal blue color @Avondale found (great post btw) and one that is overly dark according to trade ideal - seemingly almost totally black except for where light reflects back. Beauty is subjective, but don't overpay.

 

[poppystar]

Just wondering, as it seems that there are ppl who are “in the trade” here on this forum (and I’m obviously not), is it true that Burma sapphires are v scarce and hard to get hold of?
I’m based in Asia and in my four months of searching for a sapphire I love, I’ve only seen 2 Burma sapphires

 

[VividRed]

Just wondering, as it seems that there are ppl who are “in the trade” here on this forum (and I’m obviously not), is it true that Burma sapphires are v scarce and hard to get hold of?
I’m based in Asia and in my four months of searching for a sapphire I love, I’ve only seen 2 Burma sapphires

I think the answer to your question might be right there

There is a premium for fine Burmese rubies and sapphires. In fine quality, they are rare, rarer than African ones. Burma also carries a “poetic” premium. Two stones of identical quality and specs will have a different prices whether coming from Burma or Madagascar.

 

[T L]

I think the answer to your question might be right there

There is a premium for fine Burmese rubies and sapphires. In fine quality, they are rare, rarer than African ones. Burma also carries a “poetic” premium. Two stones of identical quality and specs will have a different prices whether coming from Burma or Madagascar.

Some Madagascar stones rival Burma and even Kashmir. Some are even sold under the false pretense of being those locales. I would look to fine Madagascar stones if I was trying to get a bigger bang for the buck.

 

[demantoidz]

Just wondering, as it seems that there are ppl who are “in the trade” here on this forum (and I’m obviously not), is it true that Burma sapphires are v scarce and hard to get hold of?
I’m based in Asia and in my four months of searching for a sapphire I love, I’ve only seen 2 Burma sapphires

There are over 400 results for 'Burmese sapphire' on 1stdibs. Of course, the right one in the right quality/budget is hard to find.
In contrast, there are 2000+ combined results for 'Sri lanka sapphire' and 'Ceylon sapphire'. Only 64 for 'Kashmir sapphire'. Not scientific at all but its something

Just wondering, as it seems that there are ppl who are “in the trade” here on this forum

Side note, if by 'in the trade' you mean sellers/jewelers/ect, the majority here are not. Just consumers and enthusiasts. Some posters are but they have an icon under their profile image that looks like this: