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Calling all feminists...what next?
- Thread starter nala
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Speechless...But this seems to be the new face of feminist liberals....serve as judge and jury based on your perception, when it’s convenient to you.
At least you got the hypocrite name right, although I suspect that if you were not defending Biden most posters would call you much worse for your statement.
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This article gives me hope and yes, I will continue to be an idealist. At least other feminists agree with me.
news.yahoo.com
Democratic Frustration Mounts as Biden Remains Silent on Sexual Assault Allegation
For more than three weeks, progressive activists and women's rights advocates debated how to handle an allegation of sexual assault against Joe Biden. The conversations weren't easy, nor were the politics: Biden, the presumptive Democratic presidential nominee, faced one allegation; his opponent
news.yahoo.com
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Oops, pardon my doof @telephone89. Apology accepted. Not excepted 
@nala I respect you and what you are saying.
@nala I respect you and what you are saying.
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Oops, pardon my doof @telephone89. Apology accepted. Not excepted
@nala I respect you and what you are saying.
#pandemicbrain
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I don't use the sexual predator card against Trump and I don't wear a pink pussy hat and had no inclination to go to any of the rallies. I actually wasn't all that phased about him getting caught saying you can "grab them by the pussy" [when you're famous] on a hot mic. I believe there ARE many people who, for whatever reason, WOULD let a famous/powerful person treat them inappropriately, especially if they believe that person could help them get ahead in some way. Trump's sexual exploits/possible crimes are the least of the reasons he never should have been elected, in my opinion.
I don't know what went on with Trump and his accusers or with Biden and Reade. I would not be shocked to find out that something beyond hair sniffing and shoulder rubbing happened between the latter. Even if Reade's accusation could be proven (it can't), then the issue becomes: was it consensual? She would say it wasn't, he would say it was. There would be no way to know who is telling the truth - especially these days when we all seem to have our own "truths." It is hard for me to believe her story, based on the fact that by all accounts this is completely out of character for Biden, but that doesn't mean it didn't happen. On the other hand, the fact that she told her mother, brother, friend (I may be missing someone?), doesn't mean that it did happen, and in the way that she said it did. We can't know.
Reade voted for Biden as VP twice, years after the event she's accusing him of. She was a Sanders supporter and did not come public with this accusation until Sanders dropped out. This makes me feel that there is some political motivation here. Does that mean she's flat out lying? No - but if she felt comfortable voting for him twice why should any feminist who now wants to vote for Biden be accused of being a hypocrite?
As for the DNC choosing anyone other than the person who won the primaries - that is a sure way to get Trump re-elected. Many many people who give not one whit about Reade's accusations voted in those primaries for Biden. What do you think is going to happen if a non-majority group of people under the banner of feminism succeeded in burying the will of the voters in order to nominate someone they liked better? Have we forgotten 2016 already?
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Aren't you serving as judge and jury for Biden? It's interesting, because to me *you* are the new face of feminism.
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Why I'm skeptical about Reade's sexual assault claim against Biden: Ex-prosecutor
If we must blindly accept every allegation of sexual assault, the #MeToo movement is just a hit squad. And it's too important to be no more than that.
www.usatoday.com
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Why do you assume that any action will result in him getting replaced? As you can see, whether you give a whit or not, more women are becoming bothered and making this an issue. Do you still think the best strategy is to ignore it until it implodes? And how about all the future voters who aren’t cynical enough to accept the hypocrisy of the situation that we find ourselves in? The Democrats are losing their edge and precisely bc they are willing to betray their ideals. Read the article. I am not alone.
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Hi. You haven’t read all my posts or you must have missed the point where I said, give him a chance to clear his name.
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Time and time again people ask the same tired questions of the sexual assault victim. Sexual assault is deeply personal. It really isn’t up to you to determine how she SHOULD HAVE behaved in the face of being digitally assaulted. It didn’t happen to you. It has been proven over and over again that assault victims do not behave in a linear and logical manner. Get over it!
The fact that they do not behave in your preconceived imaginary way does not mean they are lying. This is the real world...people behave in an unpredictable fashion, especially when they are penetrated against their will.
For all of you that are so shocked by this, don’t be...you should have known this was coming when Biden’s hair sniffing, shoulder rubbing behavior was revealed. He was a poor candidate then.
Now, I’m supposed to vote for him? Because he’s on equal ground or “higher ground” than Trump? We are really going to rationalize this? I’m a liberal. I’m better than this garbage. I’m not stooping to right wing rolling in the mud to get my candidate in office.
The fact that they do not behave in your preconceived imaginary way does not mean they are lying. This is the real world...people behave in an unpredictable fashion, especially when they are penetrated against their will.
For all of you that are so shocked by this, don’t be...you should have known this was coming when Biden’s hair sniffing, shoulder rubbing behavior was revealed. He was a poor candidate then.
Now, I’m supposed to vote for him? Because he’s on equal ground or “higher ground” than Trump? We are really going to rationalize this? I’m a liberal. I’m better than this garbage. I’m not stooping to right wing rolling in the mud to get my candidate in office.
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Why I'm skeptical about Reade's sexual assault claim against Biden: Ex-prosecutor
If we must blindly accept every allegation of sexual assault, the #MeToo movement is just a hit squad. And it's too important to be no more than that.www.usatoday.com
Interesting read- lots going on there!
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A chance to clear his name? If somebody accused you of doing a heinous thing 27 years ago with no specific way to refute it (no exact date, time, or place) what on earth could you do to “clear your name” and why should you be expected to?
I have read all your posts in this thread.They appear to have evolved into stating that anyone who doesn’t agree with you is a hypocrite.
edited to add: I did read the article you linked to. I do not think you are alone in wanting Biden to speak out. I’m not that politically astute so I could be wrong, but I think the vast majority of voters who picked Biden (I was not one of them) are not going to be put off by him staying quiet on this. In fact, they may rather he just STFU because it’s a no win situation for him. A vehement denial means he has to call Reade a liar and get the machine going to discredit her.
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Did anyone watch the Mika interview this morning? I think the Delaware papers might be a problem for him and he made it worse for other reasons in addition to Tara Reade. I don't have an opinion on the sexual assault answers because I always knew it would be a he said she said. He could have done better addressing it. She was tougher than I thought she would be which is good.
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@redwood66 thanks for the head’s up!!!
I haven’t watched it but I will! I guess that we ideal feminists were not asking for too much by holding him accountable! At least he has finally come forward!!!
I haven’t watched it but I will! I guess that we ideal feminists were not asking for too much by holding him accountable! At least he has finally come forward!!!
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This interview. This is what I expected him to at the very least do to clear his name. Even after 27 years.
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He hasn't cleared his name. He addressed the issue by denying the allegation. As was stated by others, he can't clear his name without concrete proof the incident did not happen. So while you got what you said you expected, we're still hypocrites. We have the predicted he said, she said and the only alternative at this point is for feminists to choose who they believe is more credible.
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Like I said, at the very least...and the fact that he was held accountable for his earlier statements of believing all women... that has been my point all along, and Mika did a wonderful job. And I will stay tuned to see what comes of this. Sorry not sorry that my idealism conflicts with your views.
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It is the most you could get absent a confession. We are still on the merry-go-round.
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I’m not out to get him...this thread was never about that. And the fact that my party has acknowledged that some of us wanted this allegation addressed makes me feel heard. And we will stay tuned....
S
smitcompton
Guest
Hi,
First let me say to Housecat that she is right that I , nor anyone else can predict how someone may react if it would happen to them. However, the Washington Post reporters did do a timeline of Ms Reades recollection of events and they do leave rational questions. As I pointed out earlier Ms rReade made her written and oral harassment complaint to the appropriate agency and 3 supervisors before this assault incident.
This is her account in my words. She was asked to bring Sen. Biden's gym bag to him in the underground of the Capital building. When she met him he pushed her against the wall, then took the gym bag from her, put his hand up her skirt (she didn't have pantyhose on) proceeded with this assault, whispered if she wanted to go elsewhere. She resisted at this point, and he stopped, and said Man, I thought they said you liked me....... . Yes Joe, this woman who just reported you to a Fed agency and 3 supervisors really likes you. Did they not tell you?
The neighbor she told about the incident happened 1995-96 Assault happened in 93. Her brother does not corroborate her story. He changed it. It is still not what she says.
Nala, I believe in using my brain to evaluate a situation. I believe it is unlikely that Joe Biden did
this.
I have a very real life story of someone who was accused of sexual assault and arrested and jailed for it. I am happy to say I helped this man because I believed him. knowing what he was like. It was a terrible experience for him, and he was only released when the accuser recanted to the police. She made it up for her own purposes. Accusations like this have terrible repercussions on the men involved..
We ought to be discerning on all fronts. all sides. I also wrote to Al Franken asking him not to resign. He didn't listen to me. Women and liberals lost a good man there.
Maria D --thanks for putting such a logical response to some posters comments. Thanks.
Annette
First let me say to Housecat that she is right that I , nor anyone else can predict how someone may react if it would happen to them. However, the Washington Post reporters did do a timeline of Ms Reades recollection of events and they do leave rational questions. As I pointed out earlier Ms rReade made her written and oral harassment complaint to the appropriate agency and 3 supervisors before this assault incident.
This is her account in my words. She was asked to bring Sen. Biden's gym bag to him in the underground of the Capital building. When she met him he pushed her against the wall, then took the gym bag from her, put his hand up her skirt (she didn't have pantyhose on) proceeded with this assault, whispered if she wanted to go elsewhere. She resisted at this point, and he stopped, and said Man, I thought they said you liked me....... . Yes Joe, this woman who just reported you to a Fed agency and 3 supervisors really likes you. Did they not tell you?
The neighbor she told about the incident happened 1995-96 Assault happened in 93. Her brother does not corroborate her story. He changed it. It is still not what she says.
Nala, I believe in using my brain to evaluate a situation. I believe it is unlikely that Joe Biden did
this.
I have a very real life story of someone who was accused of sexual assault and arrested and jailed for it. I am happy to say I helped this man because I believed him. knowing what he was like. It was a terrible experience for him, and he was only released when the accuser recanted to the police. She made it up for her own purposes. Accusations like this have terrible repercussions on the men involved..
We ought to be discerning on all fronts. all sides. I also wrote to Al Franken asking him not to resign. He didn't listen to me. Women and liberals lost a good man there.
Maria D --thanks for putting such a logical response to some posters comments. Thanks.
Annette
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I keep trying to write down what I'm thinking, and then I keep erasing it and trying again. This thread is bringing up so much in me, and I just don't know how to communicate it. Nothing I try seems to really say it.
I'm distressed at the number of people who are trying to impugn the accuser because of how she "handled it", or looking for ways to discredit her, especially if you're the same people that were deeply offended and wrote lengthy refutations - as I did - back during the Kavanaugh hearings when his accuser was treated that way. If it wasn't OK then, it's not OK now. We don't have any more "objective facts" about what actually happened between the accuser and the accused now than we did then. If we look at facts, none of us know what happened between Biden and his accuser - and short of a confession to lying by one or the other, we never will know. The same holds true for Kavanaugh and his accuser. All of our "gut hunches" about who is telling the truth, etc., is purely speculation based on little-to-no facts and overwhelmingly mainly emotions and personal biases - and we should be honest with ourselves as well as others about that, especially when those biases lead us to change our tune based on the politics.
I would dearly love to have the DNC provide a different option for their candidate, but I don't know that there is a mechanism for doing that. The party members clearly voted for Biden in the primaries, and it is putting the DNC in an extremely difficult position if they overrule those votes to nominate a different candidate. The situation really is a bit of a shitshow. What I personally think would be the only politically reasonable choice would be to have primaries all over again due to the new information about these allegations, and give the party members the chance to decide if they still want him to be their candidate in the face of it, or now wish to go in a different direction. That would be a logistical nightmare, though. The timing of these allegations, whether intentional or not, is completely devastating to any hope of defeating Trump. If I was more conspiracy-minded, I would suspect that Republican strategists absolutely had a hand in the timing, but short of provable facts, who knows. Perhaps Bernie or the second-best of the more centrist Democratic candidates should throw their hat in as an independent now, but that likely would still split the vote and hand Trump the win. Somehow, it seems that no matter how we try on the left, and despite the fact that the majority of polls repeatedly show that the majority of Americans are more centrist and left than right, we're always out-strategized by the right and left with the majority being ruled by the minority.
I'm also distressed at the attitude of condemnation and ethical superiority some are taking against those of us who, despite our distress, will still vote for Biden if he is the Democratic nominee. I'm not going to tell you who you should vote for, and if you feel, as a feminist, that you simply cannot vote for Biden, I respect that, and wouldn't dream of treating you like I'm morally superior to you because you are making a different choice. I request the same respect in return.
Trump and Biden both have sexual assault allegations against them - in that respect they are equally offensive to me. In literally every other area in which I could possibly evaluate them, I find Trump unequivocably vile, in complete opposition to everything I believe, and dangerous to the country, its citizens, and other citizens of the world. As deeply abhorrent to me as sexual assault and harassment to anyone is, the danger Trump presents to actual human (and animal) life simply outweighs the issue in my mind. Death > sexual assault for me. That doesn't make me a hypocrite, and that doesn't make me morally/ethically inferior. Period.
I'm distressed at the number of people who are trying to impugn the accuser because of how she "handled it", or looking for ways to discredit her, especially if you're the same people that were deeply offended and wrote lengthy refutations - as I did - back during the Kavanaugh hearings when his accuser was treated that way. If it wasn't OK then, it's not OK now. We don't have any more "objective facts" about what actually happened between the accuser and the accused now than we did then. If we look at facts, none of us know what happened between Biden and his accuser - and short of a confession to lying by one or the other, we never will know. The same holds true for Kavanaugh and his accuser. All of our "gut hunches" about who is telling the truth, etc., is purely speculation based on little-to-no facts and overwhelmingly mainly emotions and personal biases - and we should be honest with ourselves as well as others about that, especially when those biases lead us to change our tune based on the politics.
I would dearly love to have the DNC provide a different option for their candidate, but I don't know that there is a mechanism for doing that. The party members clearly voted for Biden in the primaries, and it is putting the DNC in an extremely difficult position if they overrule those votes to nominate a different candidate. The situation really is a bit of a shitshow. What I personally think would be the only politically reasonable choice would be to have primaries all over again due to the new information about these allegations, and give the party members the chance to decide if they still want him to be their candidate in the face of it, or now wish to go in a different direction. That would be a logistical nightmare, though. The timing of these allegations, whether intentional or not, is completely devastating to any hope of defeating Trump. If I was more conspiracy-minded, I would suspect that Republican strategists absolutely had a hand in the timing, but short of provable facts, who knows. Perhaps Bernie or the second-best of the more centrist Democratic candidates should throw their hat in as an independent now, but that likely would still split the vote and hand Trump the win. Somehow, it seems that no matter how we try on the left, and despite the fact that the majority of polls repeatedly show that the majority of Americans are more centrist and left than right, we're always out-strategized by the right and left with the majority being ruled by the minority.
I'm also distressed at the attitude of condemnation and ethical superiority some are taking against those of us who, despite our distress, will still vote for Biden if he is the Democratic nominee. I'm not going to tell you who you should vote for, and if you feel, as a feminist, that you simply cannot vote for Biden, I respect that, and wouldn't dream of treating you like I'm morally superior to you because you are making a different choice. I request the same respect in return.
Trump and Biden both have sexual assault allegations against them - in that respect they are equally offensive to me. In literally every other area in which I could possibly evaluate them, I find Trump unequivocably vile, in complete opposition to everything I believe, and dangerous to the country, its citizens, and other citizens of the world. As deeply abhorrent to me as sexual assault and harassment to anyone is, the danger Trump presents to actual human (and animal) life simply outweighs the issue in my mind. Death > sexual assault for me. That doesn't make me a hypocrite, and that doesn't make me morally/ethically inferior. Period.
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Thank you for your thoughtful post. I don’t know the logistics of replacing Biden nor am I endorsing for that to happen. I am also not telling anyone who to vote for. The term hypocrisy emerged in this thread because of the double standard that we were using when it came to Biden. The Morning Joe interview acknowledged that, which was music to my ears. I feel heard. I don’t feel so alone, which is how many on this thread, expect for a few @redwood66 and @Bonfire and @Queenie60 have made me feel.
ETA: I am aware that this election will be a matter of the lesser of two evils, but I also have faith that when you do the right thing, you effect long-term change. We have to model a true conviction to women’s rights if we want our daughters and granddaughters to be liberals.
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I want future generations of all sexes to be taught critical thinking and how to hone that skill by evaluating facts, remaining independent of group think, developing strategies for identifying propaganda and lies and making decisions based on all the aforementioned. That would, imo, make irrelevant and render obsolete the need for labels such as liberal or conservative and in my most idealistic dream, render any subset other than human rights unnecessary. Yeah, I know, I'm not holding my breath.
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This is a truly awful post. Please take time to learn about trauma before blaming a potential victim and lecturing about what someone "should" do.
I don't love joe Biden, and these accusations make me dislike him more than I already did. However, trump is 1000x more dangerous for the country and the world than biden, so I will hold my nose and vote for him.
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Interesting POV regarding hypocrisy and this election.
Biden denies sex assault claim. If you don't believe him, should you vote for him anyway?
If you believe Reade's claims but grasp the unique danger Trump presents, it's best to ignore black-and-white analysis and search your own conscience.
www.usatoday.com
If you believe Reade's claims but grasp the unique danger Trump presents, it's best to ignore black-and-white analysis and search your own conscience.
Here we go again: The American public is faced with allegations of a male politician’s bad behavior — in this case, accusations against former Vice President Joe Biden by former Senate staffer Tara Reade, who says the putative Democratic presidential nominee sexually assaulted her in 1993 while she worked in his Capitol Hill office.
What does it mean to “believe women” who have made sexual assault allegations such as Reade’s? It has always been my inclination to err on the side of believing women because, statistically speaking, it’s highly unusual (though not unheard of) for such claims to be fabricated. “Believing,” in such cases, does not mean blindly accepting every accusation as the unquestioned truth. It simply means taking such allegations seriously and believing that their claims should be fairly investigated.
Many Biden supporters don’t believe Reade’s accusation. But for those who find it unsettling, how might we think about this issue in terms of the presidential election?
Trump outstrips Biden on accusations
First, the terrible analogies need to go. Conservatives claim there has been a double standard for Biden compared with how Supreme Court nominee Brett Kavanaugh was treated. This is false. While a few Democrats demanded Kavanaugh's nomination be immediately withdrawn just on the strength of the accusations against him, the prevailing view was that the accusations should be thoroughly and fairly investigated, and that Christine Blasey Ford should be heard. This is what Democrats on the Senate Judiciary Committee sought and it’s what the Republicans refused to do, instead running a sham investigation intended to exonerate Kavanaugh and smear Ford.
Another factor that clearly separates the two situations is that President Donald Trump could have withdrawn Kavanaugh's nomination for a life term on the Supreme Court and replaced him with someone else. Biden, on the other hand, was not appointed. He was chosen by voters.
Whether people like it or not, it’s now a zero-sum game: Trump versus Biden.Even if you believe the accusation against Biden, Trump far outstrips him in the sexual assault accusation department. Yes, it's a terrible place to be where that sentence can even be written.That said, if sexual assault allegations are the most important issue to you, then there is still no contest.
Former Vice President Joe Biden and President Donald Trump. (Photo: AP)
Does that make you a hypocrite? I don’t think so, but even if it did, we need to get some perspective here. “Pin the tail on the hypocrite” is a uniquely Washington game, and one that I played with élan for years. The problem with it is that it often reduces complex issues to simplistic caricatures and typically involves ascribing the worst of intentions to whomever you view as an opponent.
But if you are undone by hypocrisy, wait until you hear what Trump has done to undocumented immigrants, the environment, black people, indigenous people, Muslims, Latinos, women’s rights, LGBTQ rights, America’s standing in the world, or the concepts of truth and decency.
This is a president who had advance warning of a looming pandemic that has killed tens of thousands of Americans and counting; who is wreaking economic havoc across the nation; and who thinks ingesting bleach might be the solution to all of this.
If the media must play the hypocrisy game, then ask the Republicans why, if they are so concerned about sexual assault allegations, they don’t turn against Trump or talk with any number of the president's accusers?
You can believe Reade and vote Biden
For those who believe the accusations against Biden but who grasp the unique danger Trump represents to this country, it’s best to ignore the kind of black-and-white analysis that dominates our public discourse. Here’s the truth: You can believe Tara Reade and still support Joe Biden, even if you view him as an imperfect vessel for removing a dangerous maniac from the White House. If this were the primary, then the calculus would be different. But it’s not.
Most of the people I know who are deeply wrestling with this issue are women. Something I’ve noticed is that women are often pushed to be absolutely pure and above reproach in order to have moral authority. I know in the past I twisted myself into pretzels trying to meet the standards of moral consistency set by people (usually men) who in hindsight were themselves raging hypocrites who never held themselves to the same strict standards to which they hold everyone else.
Just like Ford, Tara Reade should be heard and her accusations deserve investigation. Biden should cooperate with that investigation. He has asked the National Archives to release the records of any complaint against him, should one exist.
When pressed Friday on MSNBC's "Morning Joe" about whether he had a double standard for Ford and Reade, Biden explained, "I'm not suggesting she had no right to come forward. Any woman, they should come forward. They should be heard. And then it should be investigated. And if there is anything that's consistent with what’s being said and she makes the case or the case is made, then it should be believed.”
This is the essence of what believing women actually means. In stark contrast to Trump, who attacked many of his accusers and imitated and mocked Ford at a Mississippi rally, Biden made clear he has no intention of maligning Reade. “I’m not going to go in and question her motive,” he said on "Morning Joe." “I’m not going to attack her. She has a right to say whatever she wants to say. But I have a right to say, look at the facts. Check it out."
Contrary to the way politics and world affairs are typically covered and discussed in America, moral and ethical dilemmas tend to be nuanced and complex. There are rarely perfect answers. In the end, we all have to weigh all sorts of competing factors and search our own consciences to determine which candidate represents the best future for the country.
Kirsten Powers, a CNN news analyst, is a member of USA TODAY's Board of Contributors. Follow her on Twitter: @KirstenPowers
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