Buying a diamond in Toronto, Canada: My experience.

[blakeo]

http://www.platinum-wedding-rings.com/platinum_alloy_information.html details the following:

Many sites list 950 platinum and seem to hide the 5% alloy used. This 5% is what you need to know before buying. None of the normal commercial mixes are bad, just very different. For example if you use 950 Platinum with Palladium your metal hardness is only 60HV. This is really soft and even dents with use. It also requires a Rhodium plating to modify the color which will wear off in a few weeks or months. In my opinion plating platinum serves no real purpose except to hide defects in materials or workmanship. How about 950 Platinum with Iridium, only 80HV and is used by many on line stores and usually they are offered at a really low price. Ask before you buy and get it in writing! I feel 80HV is still too soft for a good wedding band. I use 900 Platinum with Iridium which has a base hardness of 115HV and 950 Platinum with Ruthenium( my standard) which has a base hardness of 135HV. Both get harder when the rings are made by what is called "work Hardening" My super hard mix, Plat-S™ will harden up to 280HV depending on the process used. It does cost more for the metal and I do have to charge more labor due to the extra work required. Below are all before heat treating or work hardening. Some of the alloy mixes below are not for rings. They are used for springs and other special applications.

Plat % Fineness Melt/C Hardness
Pure Platinum, No Alloy Added 999 1773 50
5% Copper 950 1725 120
5% Cobalt 950 1750 135
3Cobalt/7% Palladium 900 1730 125
5% Cobalt / 10% Palladium 850 1710 150
1.5% Iridium /3%Gallium ( springs ) 950 1550 225
5% Iridium - Used a LOT at Low price internet sites! 950 1780 80 / Soft!
10% Iridium / My optional mix 900 1780 115
5% Palladium 950 1755 60
10% Palladium 900 1750 80
15% Palladium 850 1730 90
5% Ruthenium / My Standard 950 1780 135+
5% Tungsten 950 1830 135

 

[blakeo]

Also found this from http://www.diamondtalk.com/forums/archive/1/2000/11/1/3385

"I posted this once before, but it may help so you get it again

Cobalt is a white metal that has a slight redish tint. It is very hard, but is somewhat brittle too. A 950/50 mixture has a Vickers hardness of 150. Difficult mixture to cast.

Iridium is mostly alloyed as 10% but 5% is common too, it adds hardness to platinum and can be welded with a torch very easy. It cast easy, and has a Vickers hardness of 110 using a 10% mixture.

Palladium is very soft and adds little hardness. It cast very easy, great for fine detail, but palladium does oxidize in air, and it does have a grayish tint to it. In a mixture of 950/50 the Vickers hardness is 60, but goes up to 80 in a mix of 900/100.

Ruthenium is very hard to work with and is a fragile material. It is very difficult to cast and ruthenium oxide fumes are toxic. In a 950/50 mixture it has a Vickers hardness of 130. A lot of manufactures use this to extrude tubing, slice it, and form it into wedding bands. "

 

[blakeo]

also from http://www.diamondtalk.com/forums/archive/1/2001/06/3/8327

"bingostu,

There is more to the various platinum alloys that just the numbers. In a nut shell:

900 Platinum is generally comprised 90% pt and 10% iridium. This is a great metal to fabricate with. It is the "old standard" that you find in your grandma's jewelry box.

950 platinum can contain 5% cobalt (Stuller's choice for casting alloy). This mix casts readily becaus it becomes very liquid at a lower emperature than the others. It is a relatively hard metal and, therefore, it is less resistant to abrasion and easier to polish. The labor required to produce jewelry in this metal is less. The profit to the manufacturer is higher and the value to the consumer is much less because of the lowered resistance to wear and the fact that this metal cannot be welded/fused together as all of the other commonly used metals can be. This metal is too hard and too brittle to fabricate much with. This metal is reactive and it is magnetic. It will oxidize and it will break. The only reason for it's use, that I can figure, is that it costs less to produce and manufacture jewelry with.

950 platinum can contain 5% iridium. This is becoming a popular alloy because it casts beautifully and it finishes well but it is very soft. I have found that it bends too easily and it does seem to scratch more readily than all of the other platinum alloys that I have used. This is a good choice for massive, solid pieces that won't have thinner areas which will be subject to heavy input. I used it to cast a monster of a man's ring and it was the right choice for that job. I don't like it for average weight ladie's rings, prongs etc. but some very qualified jewelry makers, friends of mine, love this alloy and use it exclusively.

950 platinum can contain %5 ruthenium which creates a harder, more durable alloy than 5% iridium of 10% iridium but not as brittle as the 5% cobalt alloy. This mix also casts and finishes well and it is almost as pleasant to fabricate with as the long time American favorite - 90% platinum/10% iridium.
Because I don't choose to stock too many different platinum alloys, this is the platinum mix I keep on hand and use for most everything I do unless my customer asks for another mix. I will never use the cobalt alloy. I have mixed 950pt/ iridium with 950pt/ruthenium and I liked the result a lot. I may gravitate more toward that mix in the future.

950 platinum is the European standard. 900 pt is not legal there. I believe that this is the reason for the move away from 90/10 iridium. Also, as someone has noted, to be stamped "plat" or "PT" the metal must be at least 95% pure platinum.

That's my take on it... Some fact, some personal preference. There are other platinum alloys being used in the world but the above values are the ones that I have been able to find from my usual U.S. sources."

 

[Hest88]

Blakeo, I wouldn't stress about this too much. I went through all the same research when investigating my DH's wedding ring. Until normal wear, the alloy actually isn't going to make a huge difference.

If you're looking at a ring with a lot of intricate work and highly detailed engraving, the 10% iridium is harder and more preferable. If it's not a highly detailed piece, then the 5% ruthenium is totally fine.

Nix the cobalt, definitely, and you might as well stay away from the palladium as well.

 

[blakeo]

Thanks Hest88,

Yeah - all this info can drive you nuts! I like the idea of 950 so the ring can actually be called Platinum. So, final spec is:

Superbcert 6 prong Tiffany 950 Platinum (5% Ruthenium) size 7, 92 ct, high shiny polish, no Rhodium coating, comfort fit with slight knife edge.

Have I missed anything? I hear die struck results in increased hardness over standard forging - is this something to consider or overkill?

 

[Hest88]

Die-struck is definitely nice, if you can find someone to do it. I know some bands are still routinely die-struck. For something basic like this, though, if it's not being commonly done I wouldn't worry.

 

[barry]

Vatche uses Iridium and Ruthenium, only.
Mostly iridium, and although more expensive than Ruthenium,
gives the finished ring a cleaner, more elegant look.
Their settings are either hand-wrought or forged.
Vatche has told me there are absolutely no
durability differences between iridium and Ruthenium.
He provides a Lifetime Guarantee on the setting and workmanship.

SuperbCert Platinum rings contain either iridium or Ruthenium.
Durability is not an issue.
Our settings are forged. The Tiffany Classic Style
is hand-wrought.
We provide you with a Lifetime Guarantee on both the ring and it's
workmanship.

Barry
www.superbcert.com

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Barry what does 'forged' mean?

 

[barry]

Configuring the metal when it's red-hot.

Barry
www.superbcert.com

 

[trichrome]

....which comes from the french "forger".

The guy who's doing that kind of work is called a "forgeron".

Trichrome.

 

[ola!]

Blakeo,

Hey just read about your diamond buying and ring search. Really liked the tiffany ring of your choice. Let me know how it goes when you finally get it all done. I'd like to purchase the same style.

Ola

 

[Rhino]

Hi Blakeo,

Thanks for the kind words. I'm glad you found our website of benefit in the whole of your experience. I've had more than one occasion to speak with Martin in the past and I can't say the nicest things about him. Glad to hear of your experience.

Kind regards,
Rhino

 

[blakeo]

Hi Rhino,

I'm looking for a close-tiffany match and at the moment Superbcert has the closest thing to it. My hesitation is the final price in $C. Local suppliers seem to average around $1,100 after tax. The Superbcert looks fantastic but is: ((((Price of ring + export handling fee) x exchange rate) + Canada luxury tax) + Canada PST & GST)

OR

((((US$900 + US$200) /0.72) x 1.1) x 1.15) = C$1932.64

Thats a $832 difference. Also, if I bring the setting in from the US, the diamond still has to be set. The local guy is charging C$200 just to set the stone in the setting and doesn't guarantee the stone while in his posession unless you pay another $300.

Given Martin charged $75 for shipping to Canada for the diamond, the $200 export handling fee seems a little excessive (what would your to-canada shipping charge be?). Does GOG do a close-match tiffany? Does Vatche? (I can't find it on their website if they do).

 

[blakeo]

There is a mistake in my last pricing calcs: - the $1,100 doesn't incl taxes. My local guy will design, make and set the diamond for $1,480 after tax (excluding his $300 charge to insure the diamond while in his posession).

(sigh - if only I lived in the US eh?).

 

[trichrome]

Blakeo

Why dont you buy a setting here in Canada????

Go to exaurum.com for example...
you'll find pretty good things there...

Trichrome.

 

[trichrome]

now look at something:

an 18k gold ring weighting around 5 grams of gold
should not cost you more than 125$ CDN+taxes

Plus 50$ for setting that's not more than 200$ CDN
evrything included... that's for the simple tiffany
style setting,...
if you want more elaborate, expect to pay more...

but 1400$ or 2000$ ??? no way.....

Trichrome.

 

[blakeo]

OK Tri - then where?

You're Montreal based? I have no problem buying from there if there is a good local person you know there (work takes me there once a month anyway).

I looked at exaurum.com but can't find a 6 prong tiffany I'm after (see my other post https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/pictures-original-tiffany-6-prong-settings.8434/ for details of what I'm looking for.

 

[blakeo]

Well, I went for the Superbcert ring - delivered on Friday last week. Barry came to the party with a much revised international shipping cost that made more sense.

Will post pics of the setting without the diamond shortly.

 

[blakeo]

shot 1

 

[blakeo]

shot 2

 

[blakeo]

As my last posts, I inserted pics of the setting sans diamond. Yesterday I was looking for a jeweler to set the diamond in the setting.

When I purchased the diamond from USA Certed diamonds, Martin recommended a couple of people who could help me build me a new setting from scratch or set a diamond in a setting I supplied. Having selected the Superbcert setting for it's design, I was after the latter service. The first quote I got from Martin's recommended contact said he would do it for $200 but that he took no liability for the diamond whilst in his care. He would assume liability for a further $300. $500 just to set a diamond?

Nope.

I took the ring to Birks Jewelers (top Canadian high end jeweler on Bloor St) who indicated that the prongs were far to short for the size of the diamond and that they often saw this kind of thing from ‘internet’ companies in fact she said they had another person with the same problem earlier in the week. They indicated they could help me, but it would take 2-3 weeks and require that they send the setting to Montreal and recast a new and larger prong setting. Cost - $450 including setting the diamond.

She did comment that I had a great design for the setting and a matching high quality diamond and that I 'got it for a very good price'

I went to a second high end Jeweler in Yorktown (high end) district who indicated that there was no problem with the prongs but that they would need to send the diamond and setting away for 5 days, wouldn’t insure it either way and that they were not responsible for any damage – cost $150.

I went to Birks Jewelers in the Eaton Centre (downtown) who indicated that they could set the stone no problems, that the prongs were sufficient length and that it would cost around $165 and take a week.

I went to European Jewelery also in the Eaton Centre (mid level maul jeweler who have been very helpful with me before - see earlier posting). They had an inhouse jeweler who could have done it in front of me but actually refused as he didn’t think he was up to the task without being able to rhodium plate it afterwards.

Honest at least. This company then recommended an area of Toronto 2 blocks away that has some 40 jewelers in the same building.

Here, a very old Chinese man called ‘Olive’ took me to his workshop on the 5th floor where I watched him do his thing. He indicated he could do a low, medium or high setting and recommended the medium, which I agreed with. He positioned the diamond in the setting before confirming with me that the height was OK, then got out an archaic set of tools on a much used wooden desk and set the diamond as I watched from 2 feet away within 15 minutes. Cost - $15 to set it, $45 insurance (if he damaged the diamond or setting this covered either recasting the setting or re-cutting the diamond). He then polished the ring again and cleaned it in an ultrasonic bath. Downstairs, I was given a free engagement ring box (black exterior, my choice from black or white velvet interior). As soon as this guy got the diamond and ring in his hands you could tell he had been doing this for decades - he wasn't gentle, his workshop was tiny and a mess but he had no problem with me watching over his shoulder and he confidently went about what he does for a living.

Anyway, I am very happy with the results, reinforced in my opinion that the high end jewelers and mauls are either dangerously out of touch with how to do their business or demonstrating that they are not acting in my best interests, and confirmed that I made a good decision with the Superbcert ring.

Lesson learned - don't forget to calculate in the cost of setting the diamond if you are getting the diamond and the setting seperately - it could be a major expense otherwise. Also, watch you don't get ripped off when you do get it done - it was literally 15 minutes worth of work.

I won't post a shot of the finished ring just yet... there is someone I want to see (and wear) it first.

 

[Greatcall]

Hey bleako are you sure you dont work for Martin at USACERTED???????????

 

[trichrome]

As I said before Blakeo,

A lot of people on this forum don't have a clue about how much
should it REALLY cost for a setting or for setting a diamond ...
Old people like this chinese guy know what they're doing.. lol

Trichrome.

 

[Acclaim]

Is this the building on Dundas Square? What is the name of his shop? Do you have a phone number for this setter?

 

[blakeo]

Yes,

The building is the "Diamond and Jewellery Centre" in Dundas Square on the south side.

 

[blakeo]

Re: Insurance

Didn't have much luck with finding good (cheap/ all inslusive) insurance and ended up having to stick with Meloche Monnex (who I also have H&C and car with). Chubb wasn't interested as I didn't have any other accounts with them.

All up, the ring cost approx $11,400 to buy. Harold and Weinstein appraised it at $17,300. The insurance agent indicated that this didn't include tax and so the final insurance would be on $19,895. MM insured the ring for (I think) $270 P/A, however, the kicker is that because I had a low House and Contents rate, this is going up as well by around $185 (H&C coverage in total is up by a further $20k). Basically, to insure the ring will be $455 PA.

I have only confirmed the policy to the end of the year so I would be interested in hearing from anyone in Canada/ Toronto who has experience in insuring e-rings and can provide feedback as to whether this is a good rate or not and if not, who they would recommend so I can renew in Jan.

Thanks

 

[hero_vc]

hi all,

I have a question with regards to shipping the diamond?
Can I have the jeweler ship it to a hotel of my choice (one night stay) in Niagara falls, NY and avoid TAXES?
If it work, we can really save a lot of money

The jeweler will only have to send the bill to toronto, canada
Would it work?

VC

 

[trichrome]

blakeo,

so have you called my agent?

Trichrome.

 

[trichrome]

blakeo,

so have you called my agent ?

Trichrome.

 

[blakeo]

Tri,

Er, no. Who would you recommend?