Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom law"

[Matata]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

http://www.nsvrc.org/sites/default/files/publications_nsvrc_factsheet_media-packet_statistics-about-sexual-violence_0.pdf

https://rainn.org/statistics

 

[momhappy]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

Sexual assault is already illegal. Public exposure is already illegal. Rape is already illegal.

If anyone goes into a bathroom and does any of those things, they are already doing something illegal. A sign on the door that shows a lady shape doesnt stop someone now, this law is suppose to?
If youre trans and are not planning to do any of those things currently, they go to the bathroom and go on their way. So, because of this, I do not understand how this law is trying to parade itself as a law meant for protection. It's a segregation law. If you dont like trans people, and don't "believe" them or don't like them, then you want to pass laws that keep them away from you. It's not hard to understand.

Yes, public exposure is illegal - unless you're pretending to be transgender and you enter the locker room of your local pool and undress in front of a room full of women & girls.
What if there is a man, who is genuinely transgender, and all he wants to do is change in the locker room - What if there is a 10 year-old girl who is also in the same locker room and she's uncomfortable seeing a man's penis in the locker room - does her comfort level not matter? How do we choose who's comfort level is more important? That's where it gets complicated.
I have nothing against trans people and I have no desire to keep them away from me. I actually feel for them because although I don't know any trans people personally, I'm sure that most of them face a constant struggle.

 

[Matata]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

What if there is a man, who is genuinely transgender, and all he wants to do is change in the locker room - What if there is a 10 year-old girl who is also in the same locker room and she's uncomfortable seeing a man's penis in the locker room - does her comfort level not matter? How do we choose who's comfort level is more important? That's where it gets complicated.

We'll just need to shift our paradigm like we do for every other significant social change. That shift will occur if we stop teaching our kids to be ashamed of the human body and that it's "bad" to see someone naked or be seen naked, or that we'll grow warts on our foreheads if we catch sight of a penis or vagina. We need to destigmatize and desensitize the long held Puritanical view that body parts are something to be embarrassed by. I'm not suggesting that we stop teaching kids to be cautious.

 

[Maria D]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

Sexual assault is already illegal. Public exposure is already illegal. Rape is already illegal.

If anyone goes into a bathroom and does any of those things, they are already doing something illegal. A sign on the door that shows a lady shape doesnt stop someone now, this law is suppose to?
If youre trans and are not planning to do any of those things currently, they go to the bathroom and go on their way. So, because of this, I do not understand how this law is trying to parade itself as a law meant for protection. It's a segregation law. If you dont like trans people, and don't "believe" them or don't like them, then you want to pass laws that keep them away from you. It's not hard to understand.

Yes, public exposure is illegal - unless you're pretending to be transgender and you enter the locker room of your local pool and undress in front of a room full of women & girls.
What if there is a man, who is genuinely transgender, and all he wants to do is change in the locker room - What if there is a 10 year-old girl who is also in the same locker room and she's uncomfortable seeing a man's penis in the locker room - does her comfort level not matter? How do we choose who's comfort level is more important? That's where it gets complicated.
I have nothing against trans people and I have no desire to keep them away from me. I actually feel for them because although I don't know any trans people personally, I'm sure that most of them face a constant struggle.

I've been changing in women's locker rooms of pools and health clubs for all of my adult life. I've yet to see a 10 year old girl out in the open with naked adult women in the locker room. Penises, breasts, vulvas, whatever...kids in our society aren't accustomed to being exposed to them and don't tend to be around naked adults. They go in a dressing cubicle with a curtain.

This law is posed as a "solution" looking for a problem that doesn't actually exist. For all the instances of child sexual predation how often is it happening in a public restroom by someone dressing up as the opposite sex? It can't be enforced, so what's the point of the law? As Missy said earlier, it's a statement. An ugly statement that serves to plant the seed that this transgender business is dangerous.

I'm amazed that any intelligent and reasonable person actually believes the law was enacted to protect us all from those "imposter" transgenders that you never hear about.

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

Momhappy. I'm sorry you are just spouting party line non-sense. The sole point of this law is discrimination pure and simple. That's not media spin. It's reality.

The right always says that criminals will be able to get access to guns, so that's why the rest of us have to be armed and have unrestricted access to weapons. Because criminals are what they are. They break the law. That is the logic. So by that VERY SAME LOGIC THIS LAW isn't going to keep predators at bay. What it does it makes what is already a hard on the law abiding transgender populace.

It is ridiculous that you have to have a proven sex change on your paper work to get access to the bathroom that matches your gender perceived identity.

There is low risk of predators in bathrooms. Period.

I am saddened by someone like you buying into this right wing media brain washing.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

I support separate restrooms based on sex, and I support adding gender neutral restrooms for those who prefer mixed gender restrooms. Those males who have had sex change surgery can come in the women's restroom and probably have done so for a long time. However, men who still have intact male body parts can go to the male or gender neutral restrooms. I respect the needs of others and believe there is a fair solution without taking away the right of women and men to have separate restrooms. It doesn't have a thing to do with politics or religion, it has to do with common sense which is incredibly lacking in this country today.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

It is ridiculous that you have to have a proven sex change on your paper work to get access to the bathroom that matches your gender perceived identity.

There is low risk of predators in bathrooms. Period.

Agree, From now on I'm going into the lady's restroom...

 

[Niel]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

It is ridiculous that you have to have a proven sex change on your paper work to get access to the bathroom that matches your gender perceived identity.

There is low risk of predators in bathrooms. Period.

Agree, From now on I'm going into the lady's restroom...

Statements like this sound so small and ignorant.

Go ahead.

As a big girl, I have no problem with you standing in a another stall while I piddle. If a young girl feels uncomfortable, tell her you're proving a point, she'll totally get it.

 

[Niel]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

I support separate restrooms based on sex, and I support adding gender neutral restrooms for those who prefer mixed gender restrooms. Those males who have had sex change surgery can come in the women's restroom and probably have done so for a long time. However, men who still have intact male body parts can go to the male or gender neutral restrooms. I respect the needs of others and believe there is a fair solution without taking away the right of women and men to have separate restrooms. It doesn't have a thing to do with politics or religion, it has to do with common sense which is incredibly lacking in this country today.

It does have to do with politics as conservatives have tried to turn their party into the party of exclusion.

Your theory of having three bathrooms sounds like a very good one. Howev, where is that money coming from? The conservative legislatures are going to pass bills to pay for a third bathroom and locker room put in every school? Why? To many its just someone with a mental condition.

And frankly, you know who this hurts, children and the poor. An adult who has already had a sex change? Great! A child who physically cannot go through that yet or has only recently begun to transition? Sorry kid.

Or the 50 yo man who can't afford the hormones, plastic surgery to look "passing", or the transition surgery at all. They're already struggling and now theyre being singled out. Because I'm sure there will continue to be trans people in the bathrooms, they will just be the ones who could afford to dress and look the part so Joe Shmow doesn't notice

 

[MarionC]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

I respect the needs of others and believe there is a fair solution without taking away the right of women and men to have separate restrooms. It doesn't have a thing to do with politics or religion, it has to do with common sense which is incredibly lacking in this country today.

yes.

 

[arkieb1]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

I remember having to pee in an out of the way place in a major city in China and it was literally a very very stinky pit/hole in the ground with an overwhelmingly bad small, rats down in it, no door and men and women walking past in open view. I'm all for gender equality but there are millions of people in the world that don't even have decent toilets so maybe some times we all need to get over ourselves, transgender people should be allowed to use whatever makes them feel comfortable and provided they are not doing anything to harm anyone else the rest of us should just get on with it....

 

[momhappy]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

Momhappy. I'm sorry you are just spouting party line non-sense. The sole point of this law is discrimination pure and simple. That's not media spin. It's reality.

The right always says that criminals will be able to get access to guns, so that's why the rest of us have to be armed and have unrestricted access to weapons. Because criminals are what they are. They break the law. That is the logic. So by that VERY SAME LOGIC THIS LAW isn't going to keep predators at bay. What it does it makes what is already a hard on the law abiding transgender populace.

It is ridiculous that you have to have a proven sex change on your paper work to get access to the bathroom that matches your gender perceived identity.

There is low risk of predators in bathrooms. Period.

I am saddened by someone like you buying into this right wing media brain washing.

Interesting. So far my thoughts on the matter are not only pure bullshit, but now I'm only spouting party line non-sense and I'm brainwashed.... Sometimes I wonder why I even bother to share my thoughts because those that aren't in align with everyone else, are quickly ganged up on and dismissed. I'm sorry that anyone would find it so difficult to believe that an individual does not support all-sex public restrooms and locker rooms. I am not comfortable with it, but I guess only certain comfort levels matter and are taken into consideration. I really don't see how my thoughts, opinions, or comfort levels matters anyways in the grand scheme of things. If things are progressing and moving towards all-sex bathrooms, then who am I to stand in the way? I guess I'll jut have to get over it and life will go on.

 

[missy]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

Hey just catching up here and want to say I think everyone has the right to share their opinions whether or not we all agree.

I know things can get heated especially with sensitive topics and yes this is a sensitive topic because many of us feel it is directly tied to discrimination which is NOT ok. BUT I get that you all don't feel that way and of course you have the right to share how you feel and why you feel that way.

I hear the reasons some of you are against transgendered people sharing the bathroom with you and while I don't agree it will increase risk for crimes nor do I agree it is OK to make transgendered individuals feel less than who they are by making them use a bathroom for a gender they don't identify with I do understand what you are saying. I just don't agree with the reasons and that is OK. By sharing we get to see others points of view and maybe make change for the positive by seeing both sides more clearly.


It's just that discrimination isn't OK. I am surprised at what a big deal it is for some to share a bathroom with a transgendered individual. It is eye opening for me. I mean I already knew how some of you were really against unisex bathrooms but this *is* different.

 

[Niel]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

Momhappy. I'm sorry you are just spouting party line non-sense. The sole point of this law is discrimination pure and simple. That's not media spin. It's reality.

The right always says that criminals will be able to get access to guns, so that's why the rest of us have to be armed and have unrestricted access to weapons. Because criminals are what they are. They break the law. That is the logic. So by that VERY SAME LOGIC THIS LAW isn't going to keep predators at bay. What it does it makes what is already a hard on the law abiding transgender populace.

It is ridiculous that you have to have a proven sex change on your paper work to get access to the bathroom that matches your gender perceived identity.

There is low risk of predators in bathrooms. Period.

I am saddened by someone like you buying into this right wing media brain washing.

Interesting. So far my thoughts on the matter are not only pure bullshit, but now I'm only spouting party line non-sense and I'm brainwashed.... Sometimes I wonder why I even bother to share my thoughts because those that aren't in align with everyone else, are quickly ganged up on and dismissed. I'm sorry that anyone would find it so difficult to believe that an individual does not support all-sex public restrooms and locker rooms. I am not comfortable with it, but I guess only certain comfort levels matter and are taken into consideration. I really don't see how my thoughts, opinions, or comfort levels matters anyways in the grand scheme of things. If things are progressing and moving towards all-sex bathrooms, then who am I to stand in the way? I guess I'll jut have to get over it and life will go on.

Petend instead of this being about sex it was about race. Pretend this law was about keeping black people out of white people bathrooms because they're "dangerous".

Then pretend if you heard someone supporting this segregation. Would you stand by an respect their beliefs I'd they came by it honestly?

Now if I said this is how many feel about the issue of trans gender people in bathrooms, would you understand why people are voicing a strong opinion against your support?

 

[missy]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

Transgendered people are human beings and deserve to be treated with respect and deserve to be treated as the gender they identify with and living as your gender should be a basic human right.

 

[momhappy]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

It's funny how someone can chime in with a thought or two and suddenly they are viewed as some backwards idiot who can't think for themselves (and that's not directed at you, missy - just a general observation). They are just thoughts and these are just discussions (or at least I thought they were ). I actually have mixed feelings about HB2, just like I do many issues, so again, this isn't an all-or-nothing for me. Maybe I'll go back to discussing beauty products, but I appreciate the dialogue anyways

 

[missy]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

Momhappy, I hear you and I agree there are times some posters who feel strongly about their convictions may seem a bit condescending in their posts either wittingly or unwittingly IDK and for the most part I think people are respectful here and if it comes across otherwise it is not on purpose. BUT I hate for anyone to feel as if they are being belittled for expressing their opinions no matter how much I personally disagree with those opinions. You know that saying: (and I am paraphrasing here) I might not agree with what you have to say, but I'll defend to the death your right to say it. Well I wouldn't defend to my death but you know what I mean.

Anyway back to the discussion at hand. Being conflicted is good because perhaps it opens the door for you to better understand why some of us feel the way we do (i.e. about this truly being about basic human rights IMO and anything less is not OK). Maybe with time you will be more open to allowing transgendered people be true to who they are and using the restroom that fits the gender they identify with.

(Sorry for the confusing sentences. Doing lots of things at once and just trying to get my thoughts out quickly).

 

[chrono]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

I am being silly here but are people in NC now expected to carry their birth certificate everywhere and have it checked by law enforcement standing outside each and every bathroom?

 

[missy]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

I am being silly here but are people in NC now expected to carry their birth certificate everywhere and have it checked by law enforcement standing outside each and every bathroom?

OK this is just a guess but no. I believe it was just to make a (morally repugnant) statement and that was the purpose of this unfair and IMO unethical "law". I cannot see it being enforced unless there is an aggravating factor involved.

 

[kenny]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

Now we can add Bryan Adams to the list of companies and artists trying to drag America out of the dark ages.

http://www.bbc.com/news/entertainment-arts-36013468

"Bryan Adams has cancelled a concert in Mississippi over the US state's new controversial religious liberty law.

The law, which allows some private businesses and religious groups to refuse service to gay people, was passed last week.

The singer issued a statement saying he could not "in good conscience" perform in the state.
He added he found it "incomprehensible that LGBT citizens are being discriminated against".
He was due to play the Mississippi Coast Coliseum in Biloxi on Thursday.

Mississippi Governor Phil Bryant signed HB1523 into law on 5 April amid opposition from equal rights groups and businesses.

The law offers protection for Christians who adhere to traditional views of marriage and gender roles, which Governor Bryant said "protects sincerely held religious beliefs and moral convictions".
The new law will take effect from 1 July."

 

[susief]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

Deleted

 

[kenny]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

Can someone explain to me why it's so important to have single sex bathrooms? Assuming there are plenty of cubicles to do whatever private business you're there for in?

Fear, rational or irrational.

Fear is the most powerful and contagious human emotion.

 

[liaerfbv]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

Momhappy. I'm sorry you are just spouting party line non-sense. The sole point of this law is discrimination pure and simple. That's not media spin. It's reality.

The right always says that criminals will be able to get access to guns, so that's why the rest of us have to be armed and have unrestricted access to weapons. Because criminals are what they are. They break the law. That is the logic. So by that VERY SAME LOGIC THIS LAW isn't going to keep predators at bay. What it does it makes what is already a hard on the law abiding transgender populace.

It is ridiculous that you have to have a proven sex change on your paper work to get access to the bathroom that matches your gender perceived identity.

There is low risk of predators in bathrooms. Period.

I am saddened by someone like you buying into this right wing media brain washing.

Interesting. So far my thoughts on the matter are not only pure bullshit, but now I'm only spouting party line non-sense and I'm brainwashed.... Sometimes I wonder why I even bother to share my thoughts because those that aren't in align with everyone else, are quickly ganged up on and dismissed. I'm sorry that anyone would find it so difficult to believe that an individual does not support all-sex public restrooms and locker rooms. I am not comfortable with it, but I guess only certain comfort levels matter and are taken into consideration. I really don't see how my thoughts, opinions, or comfort levels matters anyways in the grand scheme of things. If things are progressing and moving towards all-sex bathrooms, then who am I to stand in the way? I guess I'll jut have to get over it and life will go on.

The issue is not an individual's comfort level. I also don't particularly like all-sex bathrooms, however, if I'm uncomfortable with that, I'll pee somewhere else. A transgendered person's ability to safely go the bathroom without facing discrimination is more important than my personal hang ups.

 

[kenny]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

A transgendered person's ability to safely go the bathroom without facing discrimination is more important than my personal hang ups.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

It is ridiculous that you have to have a proven sex change on your paper work to get access to the bathroom that matches your gender perceived identity.

There is low risk of predators in bathrooms. Period.

Agree, From now on I'm going into the lady's restroom...

Statements like this sound so small and ignorant.

Go ahead.

As a big girl, I have no problem with you standing in a another stall while I piddle. If a young girl feels uncomfortable, tell her you're proving a point, she'll totally get it.

How do you know I am small?...

 

[Gypsy]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

Momhappy,
I apologize if my post came across as patronizing, that was not my intent. You and I often disagree about certain specific topics; most often when it comes to issues affecting children and child care. You are a mother, and though I do not know you personally, I believe you are a good if, from your posts sometimes over protective (it seems to me), one. I am not one. So I think a lot of our conflicts of opinion come from those differing world views. Despite our differences on these topics, I have never thought you were gullible or an idiot who cannot think for herself. As a matter of fact, the impression I have of you is of a very strong minded and strong willed person who doesn't go with the flow, because it is easy, but rather forms her own opinions from her own experiences. And I mean that as a compliment. And while I may not agree with your viewpoint on a given issues, its not because I believe those views are willfully uninformed.

That is why this part of your post:
"The concern was predators having free access to public facilities because they are pretending to be transgendered. For example, any man who put on lipstick and a dress, could enter a (public) female locker room or vice versa. The law was meant to protect the general public, not discriminate against transgendered people.I have no interest in sharing bathrooms with members of the opposite sex and this is one of those issues where the needs of the many should outweigh the wants of the few.As usual, the media has put their own spin on things."
In this thread took me by surprise and I had such a strong reaction to it. Because that post resembled closely the facebook memes that I see originating from sites that pander to affluent, insulated, conservative christian, prejudiced and paranoid white populations that have no personal experience or empathy for the plight of ANY marginalized minority but in particular, in this case, the transgendered. And that did not match the voice I have come to associate with you. Your wording about the needs of the many outweighing the needs of the few while parroting (factually non-existent) claims of those types of sites that this law's goal is to PROTECT some population from (factually non-existent) predators rather than discriminate really surprised me. Because it is not the post of someone who is strong minded, independent and well informed, which is the impression I've had of you. But is rather, in my opinion, the post of someone who has allowed the right wing media spin prey on their fears about children (your hot button) being preyed upon in public bathrooms.

You say you are conflicted about the law. Perhaps it is because you are a momma bear. And any issue that affects child safety is a particularly sensitive one for you. And the thought of protecting children from predators is one that you believe in strongly. So any law the claims to protect children automatically registers as one worthy of support to you.

But at the same time, perhaps, part of your realizes that this law does in fact discriminate against a population, that like children, do not have a voice, are disenfranchised, and are deserving of protection. The transgendered. And that even if you have no personal experience with the transgendered you may recognize that they are just the latest target, like blacks, and the Japanese, and women, and gays before them, of the right to be singled out for fear mongering and discrimination. Not because they threaten children. But because they threaten the status quo that the white affluent right so desperately wants to protect.

Many of the transgendered most affected by this of law are teenagers and young adults. Teenagers and young adults that are already troubled, already in need, already marginalized. And this law, and ones like it, just make what is already a difficult reality harder for them. And perhaps, like blacks, the Japanese, and women and gays... in the case of the transgendered it's actually NOT the majority that is at risk from the minority, as you said in your post. But rather exactly the opposite. It's the minority that is being attacked by the majority. And that this minority, like all those that have gone before them, deserve your protection because, like children, they do not have a voice and need a champion. A momma bear.

The irony for me, is that if you look at the statistics and the research the greatest predatory threat to the children you want (and we all want) to protect, in terms of demographics, it is white males. Whether they are dressed as clerics, as women, as clowns, or as coaches. White males are pretty much the biggest predatory threat to children in this country. But you won't see a law tailored to protecting children against them. Ever. Why? Well, they, unlike the transgendered and the gays and the blacks, etc., are not marginalized or a minority. And not only do they threaten children on an individualized basis, but through their affluence in politics and their fear mongering messaging they have threatened and continue to threaten ALL minorities in our populace and have for decades. And even as we win battles against them, generation after generation, for blacks, for women, for the Japanese, and most recently for gays, they continue to prey upon target after target. The behavior doesn't change. Just the target. Today's targets just happen to be the transgendered. And the muslims. But the behavior doesn't change.

That's why I applaud Bruce Springsteen. Because he IS an affluent white male. And he is standing against his 'own kind.' And it is only through those like him, other white males, standing against this predatory behavior that victimizes minorities, whether they be children or anything else, that we will win the war instead of just successive battles. Because like it or not, in this country, white males are where the power is at. And that is where change needs to start or order to affect permanent change. Not with the transgendered or any other minority.

 

[partgypsy]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

NC pulled a special session (outside their usual schedule) to pass this bill, which cost us taxpayers at least 40K for this session. We are having numerous fallout from this law, everything from canceled concerts, to companies not expanding here, to for NY State no non-essential travel. So, as other states and areas have interpreted this as a discriminating piece of legislature, this was at the least not very well thought-out. There is no word on how to actually enforce or fund enforcing this law, ensuring that it is either not enforceable or will be inconsistently enforced. And finally all it does is criminalize transgender people. As other people have mentioned, white males are the most likely to commit acts of predatory sexual abuse, not transgender. In fact it is much more likely that a transgender will be attacked, than be an attacker. Forcing those transgender in transition to use say the men's bathroom when dressed as a women makes them much more likely to become a target, increasing their chances of becoming a victim.

 

[Matata]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

.

 

[chemgirl]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

.

Conversely I have a very good friend who is trans. This is unkind of me to say, but she very much looks like a guy wearing makeup. People stare, make comments, and snap pictures when we are out together. I don't know how she has the courage to venture out (and travel the world!) by herself, but she does.

She gets rude comments and faces confrontation nomatter what bathroom she uses. Laws like this one somehow justify the people who discriminate against her. It's just not fair.

 

[kenny]

Re: Bruce Springsteen cancels concert in NC over "bathroom l

... I have a very good friend who is trans.
This is unkind of me to say, but she very much looks like a guy wearing makeup. ...

I don't think that is unkind to say.
Not at all.

It would be unkind only if we insist every person must either fit into one of two gender-jars or appear to.

I think it's better to just accept each person, as is.
If her goal is to look 'convincingly female' and works towards that, great.
If not, equally great.

I'm reminded of those comedy skits staring Julia Sweeny as "Pat" the gender-ambiguous charcter.
All the people around Pat are freaked out.
It's hilarious to watch them try to use tact to figure out of Pat is a man or a woman.

We are soooo uncomfortable with people who don't fit into one jar.
I confess to this myself.
Something I'm working on.