Best red stone - Rubellite or Rhodolite?

[GliderPoss]

Christmas greeting to my fellow PS members!

I am looking to treat myself with a xmas red stone and would sincerely appreciate your wise advice...

Looking for a:

• 8-10mm stone, would prefer pink/purple undertones (rather than orange)
  Cushion or square shaped
  Cherry/raspberry red
  No too much extinction
  Reasonable price ie. <$300.
  Eye clean.

I have looked at many recommended vendors and have Doug from Bespoke Gems checking his rough inventory for me. Really like Barry Bridgestock's stones BUT figured the most important question I should ask first is WHICH is better for what I'm looking for?

Rubellite Tourmaline or Rhodolite Garnet?

Which will show less extinction and look best in all lights? Guess I don't want to waste anyone's time looking for a stone that doesn't exist if that makes sense?

Any help would be terrific. Thanks again. Have attached pic of one that is sorta what I'm looking for.........

 

[Treenbean]

I have both a rhodolite pair from TGT and a rubellite pair from Bob Kast. The rhodolites are lively but darker by nature, whereas the rubellites are lighter and more lively and have a depth that my rhodolites don't have. MHO

 

[Treenbean]

http://www.ajsgem.com/garnet/rhodolite-garnet/rhodolite-garnet-3.88-carats.html-0

This may not be what you are looking for but it's a start. With your budget you should be able to get a really nice stone. I think Uli has some nice rhodolite rough too if you want to check with him too.

 

[GliderPoss]

Thanks Treenbean! I will check out your suggestion. Obviously the cheaper the better but didn't want to make the search impossible!

 

[arjunajane]

hi pozzum, the cushion you have shown belongs to me -although its a lovely stone, the colour IRL can be quite different to the photo -think more merlot than raspberry in most lighting (I do have a thread around with a number of pics of it). If you are going with rhodolite I would suggest asking for umbalite (a variety of rhodo) instead-I saw a piece of rough in Doug's online inventory. In my experience it tends to be brighter, more richly coloured and holds its colour in more varied lighting. Even though I'm fond of it, my rhodo cant hold a candle up against my umbalite.

I dont own a rubellite so cant comment from experience there, however I do understand they tend to be somewhat brighter and hold their colour better than regular rhodo.
As far as cutters, I've recently purchased a spess from Doug which is stunning and he's an excellent guy. Barry would be my next recommendation as his fave gems to cut (and what he tends to have the better rough in) is garnets & tourms.
Good luck in your hunt!

 

[GliderPoss]

What about this one? Too dark?

Weight: 5.25 carats
Total Price (USD): $165.00
Clarity: Slightly Included
Origin: Madagascar
Shape: Emerald Cut
Cut: Scissor
Treatment: Unheated
Size: 10.49 x 8.76 x 6.25 mm ( LxWxD )



Love the rich colour and although it's a tad larger its well within my budget... Hmmm think it's just good lighting or will it look ok?

or this one:

Weight: 3.18 carats
Total Price (USD): $99.00
Clarity: Eye Clean
Origin: Madagascar
Shape: Cushion
Cut: Portuguese
Treatment: Unheated
Size: 8.92 x 7.52 x 5.27 mm ( LxWxD )

 

[GliderPoss]

Thanks Arjuna Jane - I have found the thread you were referring to and have a good look at both stones.

https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/two-new-rhodolites.148947/

I see what you mean about the different levels of "brilliance" and saturation. Both are stunning in their own way and in fact I think I prefer the rich red of the rhodolite....Hmmm... this just makes it harder to decide!

 

[cellentani]

I have 2 rhodolite garnets - a Tanga, and an Umbalite, both from Gene. I love the mix of pink, red, and purple, but they can definitely close up in certain light. I also have several rubellites, ranging from hot pink (some probably wouldn't classify those as true rubellites) to pinkish red. While some shift to a deeper red in incandescent light, the one thing they all have in common is that they never black out, even in low light. However, I have seen a few rubellites that don't hold their color as well, so you'd still need to ask the vendor to evaluate each individual stone. I don't know if this is an issue for you, but depending on the region, rhodolites tend to be cleaner than rubellites. Feel free to search my threads for examples, and let me know if you'd like any comparison shots - I could probably throw a few together.

 

[Arkteia]

I'd love to own a beautiful rhodolite but I yet have to find one. Except for a very old stone everything else that I bought looks much darker than in pictures. (I am waiting for a package from Barry, though. Keeping my fingers crossed).

My first Bob Kast's rubellite is amazing, a stone that I want to keep for myself although it is small. The second one was definitely not as saturated, so if you buy from him, specify that this is what you are buying, I think he once shipped another stone by mistake. But he is definitely a good source of inexpensive, bright and happy pink and red stones, which are very well cut as well.

 

[GliderPoss]

Cellentani, that would be wonderful if you could post comparisons of your stones! Thank you.

Seems I have learnt so far:

Rhodolite - more extinction in low light but more rich "true red" colour and saturation

VS

Rubellite - holds its brilliance and colour in various lighting but is more pinky coloured.

I guess it might help to explain my first e-ring was a bright red ruby and I totally adored it (was lost last year ). Swore if I ever replaced it I'd get a untreated one this time. Now I know more I can see it's unlikely we'll ever afford a sizable untreated ruby SO I am happy to get some red bling in another form and the upside it better clarity.

 

[LD]

Hotpossum - not sure I would agree that Rhodolites tend to be more red than Rubellites. I don't think they do. Rubellites are named as such because it means "Ruby like". Neither stone is a true red however, both have more purple/pink/raspberry tones than being a true red.

I've got both but tend to veer towards Rubellite. HOWEVER, finding a great Rubellite that holds its colour in incandescent lighting without looking more brown can be challenging. Once you find one however, it's a bit like the Holy Grail!!! I've bought possibly 50 Rubellites over the years and my collection actually comprises only about 5 - so you can see how fussy I was in trying to find the right material. In my opinion, a Rubellite should be towards the purple end of red or as red as you can find!

Rhodolites are much easier to source BUT can be quite dark. When you find a good one, it'll be a deep raspberry red with flashes of pink - and again, look for one with no brown. I bought a lovely one from John at GemRite about 2 years ago and he had some great material. It might be worth contacting him to see if he has any left?

 

[movie zombie]

rhodies of any larger size just are darker....its part of the characteristics of the stone. want a brighter, really red: need to go smaller and pay high sums. otherwise, lots darkness due to the character of the stone and/or extinction.

as noted above, rubelite is "ruby like". i've seen one that was so when i was looking at one time. jeweler got it in for me to see and it was from pala. it was more $ than i was willing to pay at the time and while not sparkly like a premium rhodie garnet, it was a stunning red.

for me the best red stone is spinel....stop light red, to be exact. but such a stone...particulary a quality stone w/o extinction or any darkness....is beyond my budget.

MoZo

 

[Treenbean]

Roger Dery at Spectral Gems has a particularly beautiful plumy rhodolite. I don't know the price but it is really pretty and cut by a master.
http://www.spectralgems.net/A-garnet.html

 

[chrono]

Rhodolites have a tendency to get darker the larger they get. I suggest looking for an Umbalite (rhodolite from the Umba region) as they don’t seem to suffer the terrible extinction that most large rhodolites do. A rubellite might be a better choice in this case. With a rubellite, you have to watch out that it doesn’t get muddy or orangish under indoor lighting. In terms of true red, a rubellite will be redder than a rhodolite, which is prized for their purplish hue.

 

[gsellis]

Why not a red Zircon?

 

[Michael_E]

Why not a red Zircon?

Because the name starts with a "Z" silly, (of course the idea is really good, since there are some very nice red zircons floating around at lower prices). This is a neat discussion, but I doubt if a person can get a decent Rubellite in the 8 to 10mm range for under $300. I';d stick with looking for rhodolites in that price range, unless you'd be happy with a rubellite that had some orange or greenish secondary hues. This ones which are "ruby like" are probably going to be way over budget.

 

[movie zombie]

Why not a red Zircon?

Because the name starts with a "Z" silly, (of course the idea is really good, since there are some very nice red zircons floating around at lower prices). This is a neat discussion, but I doubt if a person can get a decent Rubellite in the 8 to 10mm range for under $300. I';d stick with looking for rhodolites in that price range, unless you'd be happy with a rubellite that had some orange or greenish secondary hues.[/quote This ones which are "ruby like" are probably going to be way over budget.]

understatement.

MoZo

 

[T L]

At this juncture, because of all the nuked rubellite that is undisclosed, I would look for a rhodolite instead. Higher RI too.

 

[cellentani]

At this juncture, because of all the nuked rubellite that is undisclosed, I would look for a rhodolite instead. Higher RI too.

TL, have you found reports that indicate rubellite rough is being treated too? I was under the impression that it was the cut stones that underwent heat and irradiation.

 

[movie zombie]

i found the RI factor lacking with rubelite when i was looking at them.....got spoiled by the garnet RI factor.

another consideration might be a fine red spess. they're around and might be lower priced than the orange ones....just a thought.

MoZo

 

[iLander]

A pure red stone CAN be done, but it will have to be a freak of nature.

Here's my threads on my search:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/which-stone-do-i-need.143386/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/which-stone-do-i-need.143386/[/URL]

And finally the red stone, that turned out to be a high chrome (freak) garnet from Barry:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/finally-the-bubblegum-ring.150757/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/finally-the-bubblegum-ring.150757/[/URL]

It was $200, and I had to beat back a bunch of other Pser's with a stick to get it Here's their reaction:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/who-got-barry-new-red-garget.150610/?hilit=barry%20red']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/who-got-barry-new-red-garget.150610/?hilit=barry%20red[/URL]

Here's the red stone thread that I am keeping up, out of guilt:

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/red-stone-alert.151699/?hilit=barry']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/red-stone-alert.151699/?hilit=barry[/URL]

So, yeah, red stones are hard to get, but you have to have faith

 

[T L]

At this juncture, because of all the nuked rubellite that is undisclosed, I would look for a rhodolite instead. Higher RI too.

TL, have you found reports that indicate rubellite rough is being treated too? I was under the impression that it was the cut stones that underwent heat and irradiation.

I heard they nuke anything and everything (cut and uncut) from another site that boasts some gemological experts. If it's being done, I wouldn't trust it, and since it's currently impossible to detect this kind of treatment, I now stay away from ALL pink tourmaline and rubellites.

 

[cellentani]

At this juncture, because of all the nuked rubellite that is undisclosed, I would look for a rhodolite instead. Higher RI too.

TL, have you found reports that indicate rubellite rough is being treated too? I was under the impression that it was the cut stones that underwent heat and irradiation.

I heard they nuke anything and everything (cut and uncut) from another site that boasts some gemological experts. If it's being done, I wouldn't trust it, and since it's currently impossible to detect this kind of treatment, I now stay away from ALL pink tourmaline and rubellites.

Well, I know you can't post a link, so if you can find me elsewhere, I'd be interested in reading up on this. Are the experts widely known? Can you give their names?

 

[T L]

At this juncture, because of all the nuked rubellite that is undisclosed, I would look for a rhodolite instead. Higher RI too.

TL, have you found reports that indicate rubellite rough is being treated too? I was under the impression that it was the cut stones that underwent heat and irradiation.

I heard they nuke anything and everything (cut and uncut) from another site that boasts some gemological experts. If it's being done, I wouldn't trust it, and since it's currently impossible to detect this kind of treatment, I now stay away from ALL pink tourmaline and rubellites.

Well, I know you can't post a link, so if you can find me elsewhere, I'd be interested in reading up on this. Are the experts widely known? Can you give their names?

I don't know if they would want me to give their names, but feel free to research, look for the references, and ask questions. All I know is that if a stone is undergoing a treatment that is impossible to detect with any equipment, I tend to stay away from it. I have heard the same from others in the field, although I have also heard that stones from Africa are safe. However, and this is my opinion, when in doubt, forget about it. One of the reasons I won't buy sapphires anymore is because some of the more invasive treatments on them are so expensive to detect, and for all the rest, you really need to get a reputable lab report or have a very very good gemologist look at it if it's deemed untreated. As for irradiation, that is even more difficult, if not impossible, to detect in many gems, so, I just stay away. It makes me rather sad, but I don't like to take my chances with gem treatment. For the moment, garnets are safe, even though I have heard that they are being fracture filled, but at least that's not as invasive as dying or irradiating.

 

[Michael_E]

For the moment, garnets are safe, even though I have heard that they are being fracture filled, but at least that's not as invasive as dying or irradiating.

Not as invasive? Well that's a matter of opinion. The fact is that fracture filling does not increase a stones durability and can decrease durability, since the wearer is not aware that they need to be very careful about breaking a stone which has been "pre-broken" for them". I would much rather have a diffused or irradiated gem than one which had hidden fractures.

 

[Arkteia]

Garnets can be heated. If demantoids are heated, then it means that other garnets can be heated. I'd run away from fracture-filled garnets. As to rubellites, I suspect that any material can be heated, African included, so it is a combination of color/price. Several years ago, the marked was full of incredible red tourmalines sold at low prices, then they disappeared. Nuked, no doubt. I would stay away of zircon, which has natural level of radiation, all of it is zicronium, for god's sake, look at the periodic table! As to nuked rubellites, the price should reflect it. Also, I always wonder what happens to irradiated stones and if after a while they may lose their color. At least heat treatment is permanent.

But the only light rhodolite I saw in my life was the one from Costco! It was the whole ring, 18 ct. white gold with diamonds, they may still be there and the reason I returned it was because I thought nothing good would ever come out of Costco. It was pink, though, but my appraiser confirmed it was rhodolite. Uli's rhodolite that I bought was dark. I am on the verge of looking for larger anthill garnets, they are usually microscopic but if larger, they are beautiful.

I bought something from Barry but have not yet received the package and can not comment on it. If the name "rhodolite" comes from greek "Rhodos", it should be pink, not, really, dark red.

 

[T L]

For the moment, garnets are safe, even though I have heard that they are being fracture filled, but at least that's not as invasive as dying or irradiating.

Not as invasive? Well that's a matter of opinion. The fact is that fracture filling does not increase a stones durability and can decrease durability, since the wearer is not aware that they need to be very careful about breaking a stone which has been "pre-broken" for them". I would much rather have a diffused or irradiated gem than one which had hidden fractures.

Michael,
I said that nuking or diffusing is a more invasive treatment because these treatments dramatically alter the gem color, whereas fracture filling does not, at least not in gems like emeralds. It does come down to a matter of personal opinion on what you think is more invasive, and for some people, fracture filling is more invasive. For example, I much rather have a fracture filled emerald than a nuked one (if they could figure out how to nuke emeralds to dramatically alter the color). There is no way I would want a nuked or diffused stone in a million years, except to give it to my daughter to play with (and if she lost it, I wouldn't care that much). However, again, this is my personal preference, and many other gem collecting purists I know. However, there is nothing wrong with buying an irradiated or diffused gem, as long as the treatment is disclosed. I respect that people still enjoy gems with those treatments. The problem with rubellite or pink tourmaline is that this treatment is rarely disclosed, and it's being sold all over the place from what I've heard, and it's impossible to detect. I find this a double whammy.

Crasru,
Heating garnets, from what I know, does not positively alter the color, except in the case of demantoids, so I think we're safe (at the moment).

 

[cellentani]

Well, laying aside the heat and irradiation issue for now, I promised some comparison photos. My Tanga and Umbalite happen to look almost identical, but keep in mind that there is a lot of color variation in rhodolites.

 

[cellentani]

One more. Again, rhodolite on the left, rubellite on the right.

 

[ooo~Shiney!]

Oh, Cellentani, what beautiful stones!
All of them are