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purrfectpear

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Sure, the same way I compare RB''s using the pricescope tool at the top. Look for the same specs, click on the links, check out the 40x mag pictures, GIA reports, etc. and compare price.

In the case of Old World Diamonds, compare size measurements, depth, table, color, clarity, and either click on the magnified pic, or else call Adam and have him send you pics.

It''s not rocket science.
1.gif


I know who works on a minimal margin and who doesn''t. If you can buy the diamond you want at a lesser price, well, that only makes sense now doesn''t it?
 

ericad

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Date: 2/13/2009 11:45:28 AM
Author: glitterata
Purrfectpear had a good experience with OWD. She says she bought three diamonds from him which she loves and which were less expensive than what she found on Erika's site. She never said all his stones are perfect or that nobody should buy from Erika--she just said in HER EXPERIENCE she had found the diamonds she was looking for to be less expensive from OWD and that she believes he often has good stuff for less money.


Maybe Erika doesn't like OWD's stones. But it's not her place to criticize another vendor's offerings--she's a vendor herself. She has many happy customers here who can chime in to recommend her if they want.


Scolding a consumer for preferring another store's goods--or in your case, David, arguing with Storm for pointing this out--will not make potential customers feel good about you and your business.


What's the point of winning every argument and shooting down every criticism if you alienate potential customers when you do it?


Erika's post struck me as atypical of how she usually operates (especially the fruit basket remark, which sounded pretty sarcastic). She's usually very helpful and gracious. I thought Storm was kind to point it out, in case Erika didn't notice her scolding tone. I'm sure she doesn't want to come across as scolding customers and badmouthing competitors.

YIKES! LOL, the fruit basket remark was simply me trying to be funny and light (my point being that vendors really appreciate client support) - that's just the nature of my personality, no offense or ill-willed sarcasm intended. Next time I'll include a smiley to help clarify my tone (and I mean this sincerely, not sarcastically).

Did I criticize OWD? I don't think I did - that certainly wasn't my intent. It's my belief that one can't generalize any vendor (ourselves included) as offering "superior" make across the board. Stone by stone, yes, but all of one vendor's inventory over any other vendor's inventory isn't really possible to determine. That's all I was trying to point out. I also mentioned that OWD does carry wonderful stones - in fact one of our clients recently purchased a cushion from OWD instead of one of ours and we got a chance to see it in person - really stunning and we are nothing but happy for her. Before I got into this business, OWD was one of my first "go to" vendors also - I think very highly of them and their inventory and always encourage every consumer to check all vendors before making a final decision. I have referred clients to OWD many times when we couldn't help them find what they were looking for.

As I said, I am familiar with the inventory of many vendors, OWD included, and it's a fact that not every single stone is of superior make (and consider the subjectivity of the term "superior"). This includes our own inventory as well. I confess I don't really understand why this is objectionable, but if I offended anyone or violated PS vendor etiquette...my bad.
 

diagem

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Date: 2/13/2009 12:53:55 PM
Author: purrfectpear
Sure, the same way I compare RB''s using the pricescope tool at the top. Look for the same specs, click on the links, check out the 40x mag pictures, GIA reports, etc. and compare price.

In the case of Old World Diamonds, compare size measurements, depth, table, color, clarity, and either click on the magnified pic, or else call Adam and have him send you pics.

It''s not rocket science.
1.gif


I know who works on a minimal margin and who doesn''t. If you can buy the diamond you want at a lesser price, well, that only makes sense now doesn''t it?
Some reality/facts...

Why would you compare a "fancy" shape to a RB? (if you have an answer..., I would be happy to hear.)
+
Specs dont tell much vs. RB specs....
+
Pictures just reveal "just" a "minute frame" of the potential reality...
+
GIA or any other report can tell you (practically) nothing on OMC''s or any other old cuts (period).

(=) ---------------------------- (=)

Can old-cuts be compared based on the above??

(Answer = No)
 

glitterata

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There--that''s the more familiar, gracious tone I associate with Erica. (Sorry for misspelling your name, Erica!)

Unless I''m misreading PP, I don''t believe she said that every single one of OWD''s stones was superior. She just said they often offer superior stones at lower prices.
 

purrfectpear

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Date: 2/13/2009 1:13:01 PM
Author: DiaGem

Date: 2/13/2009 12:53:55 PM
Author: purrfectpear
Sure, the same way I compare RB''s using the pricescope tool at the top. Look for the same specs, click on the links, check out the 40x mag pictures, GIA reports, etc. and compare price.

In the case of Old World Diamonds, compare size measurements, depth, table, color, clarity, and either click on the magnified pic, or else call Adam and have him send you pics.

It''s not rocket science.
1.gif


I know who works on a minimal margin and who doesn''t. If you can buy the diamond you want at a lesser price, well, that only makes sense now doesn''t it?
Some reality/facts...

Why would you compare a ''fancy'' shape to a RB? (if you have an answer..., I would be happy to hear.)
+
Specs dont tell much vs. RB specs....
+
Pictures just reveal ''just'' a ''minute frame'' of the potential reality...
+
GIA or any other report can tell you (practically) nothing on OMC''s or any other old cuts (period).

(=) ---------------------------- (=)

Can old-cuts be compared based on the above??

(Answer = No)
You misunderstood my post, I should have been clearer. I was saying when I compare RB''s I use the pricescope tool (not when I compare old cuts).

When I compare old cut pricing, I use Old World as they have hundreds, list the specs online along with pics and prices. Some have GIA and some have EGL reports. It''s just another tool, nothing more. As to pictures, well that''s what is being offered by EricaGrace or DBL. You use pictures to narrow your choices. You call the stone IN to make your final selection. No where did I say that you could make a complete evaluation without seeing the stone yourself. No where did I say that all of OWD stock was superior. I did say that they often have superior stones at lesser prices.

Perhaps instead of quizzing me, we should be asking those with higher prices to justify what is driving their higher price. Is it massive overhead? An inability to purchase low due to low volume? Lack of reasonable sources? What does the consumer get out of their pricing problems?
 

strmrdr

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Date: 2/13/2009 1:13:01 PM
Author: DiaGem
Date: 2/13/2009 12:53:55 PM



Why would you compare a 'fancy' shape to a RB? (if you have an answer..., I would be happy to hear.)
ReRead what she said.... it is the same process to compare one omc/oec to another omc/oec as comparing one RB to another RB ...not compare a RB to old cuts.
 

Rockdiamond

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Great points raised!

I apologize if it seemed I was "arguing"- but I do feel that drawing distinctions is important.
I don;t see anyone complaining that PUrrfect loves or recommends OWD.
No one said anything even remotely negative about OWD- just the opposite. Adam is a great guy, he's got a great site- everyone agreed.

If it seems that a consumer is using faulty methods of comparison, I believe that's a valid subject- not to argue with the consumer, but in an effort to keep a fair, balanced and accurate conversation for the readers.

Purrfect mentioned that she used the same methods as comparing a round- but that's really not going to produce an accurate and valid comparison of two OMC's, for example.

Again- everyone is entitled to their opinion, but a vendor who's here to discuss - especially if they are proud of what they are doing ....well it would seem natural to want to answer a point that was raised. It would also seem to enrich the conversation for all involved.
After all, if the vendor doesn't even participate at all, it's far less informative for all concerned.

Back to the conversation!
I do believe that , for my money, the condition of an old diamond is a large part of determining it's value.
Although we can accept some abrasions, and minor girdle chipping, it seems to me that devalues the stone if we compare to one in better condition.

Diagem- Thank You for joining the conversation!!
In terms of brilliance, and OMC diamonds- I can see your point- ultimate brilliance is not why someone would likely buy an OMC, or OEC. But if we were comparing two stones side by side, and one seems clearly more lively- wouldn't that affect the value?

edited to add: Sorry I was writing as the posts above mine were being posted

Purrfect, that does make a lot more sense as a method of comparison.
 

diagem

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Date: 2/13/2009 1:41:03 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Great points raised!

I apologize if it seemed I was ''arguing''- but I do feel that drawing distinctions is important.
I don;t see anyone complaining that PUrrfect loves or recommends OWD.
No one said anything even remotely negative about OWD- just the opposite. Adam is a great guy, he''s got a great site- everyone agreed.

If it seems that a consumer is using faulty methods of comparison, I believe that''s a valid subject- not to argue with the consumer, but in an effort to keep a fair, balanced and accurate conversation for the readers.

Purrfect mentioned that she used the same methods as comparing a round- but that''s really not going to produce an accurate and valid comparison of two OMC''s, for example.

Again- everyone is entitled to their opinion, but a vendor who''s here to discuss - especially if they are proud of what they are doing ....well it would seem natural to want to answer a point that was raised. It would also seem to enrich the conversation for all involved.
After all, if the vendor doesn''t even participate at all, it''s far less informative for all concerned.

Back to the conversation!
I do believe that , for my money, the condition of an old diamond is a large part of determining it''s value.
Although we can accept some abrasions, and minor girdle chipping, it seems to me that devalues the stone if we compare to one in better condition.

Diagem- Thank You for joining the conversation!!
In terms of brilliance, and OMC diamonds- I can see your point- ultimate brilliance is not why someone would likely buy an OMC, or OEC. But if we were comparing two stones side by side, and one seems clearly more lively- wouldn''t that affect the value?

edited to add: Sorry I was writing as the posts above mine were being posted

Purrfect, that does make a lot more sense as a method of comparison.
It might..., to both direction, think about it...
2.gif
.
 

strmrdr

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Date: 2/13/2009 10:25:04 AM
Author: Rockdiamond

Storm- no question this site is largely based on consumer''s personal experiences, a great thing.

But do you feel that when a totally inappropriate correlation is drawn, it''s balanced and fair to allow the vendor to respond?

They are talking the time to participate and share a tradesperson viewpoint..... I believe that is also valuable to readers.
Educate don''t preach or one will come across as scolding and get hammered.

I would love to hear Erica''s professional opinion on what considerations she considers important when comparing prices and what she looks for in these stones.
 

diagem

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Date: 2/13/2009 1:32:39 PM
Author: purrfectpear

Date: 2/13/2009 1:13:01 PM
Author: DiaGem


Date: 2/13/2009 12:53:55 PM
Author: purrfectpear
Sure, the same way I compare RB''s using the pricescope tool at the top. Look for the same specs, click on the links, check out the 40x mag pictures, GIA reports, etc. and compare price.

In the case of Old World Diamonds, compare size measurements, depth, table, color, clarity, and either click on the magnified pic, or else call Adam and have him send you pics.

It''s not rocket science.
1.gif


I know who works on a minimal margin and who doesn''t. If you can buy the diamond you want at a lesser price, well, that only makes sense now doesn''t it?
Some reality/facts...

Why would you compare a ''fancy'' shape to a RB? (if you have an answer..., I would be happy to hear.)
+
Specs dont tell much vs. RB specs....
+
Pictures just reveal ''just'' a ''minute frame'' of the potential reality...
+
GIA or any other report can tell you (practically) nothing on OMC''s or any other old cuts (period).

(=) ---------------------------- (=)

Can old-cuts be compared based on the above??

(Answer = No)
You misunderstood my post, I should have been clearer. I was saying when I compare RB''s I use the pricescope tool (not when I compare old cuts).

When I compare old cut pricing, I use Old World as they have hundreds, list the specs online along with pics and prices. Some have GIA and some have EGL reports. It''s just another tool, nothing more. As to pictures, well that''s what is being offered by EricaGrace or DBL. You use pictures to narrow your choices. You call the stone IN to make your final selection. No where did I say that you could make a complete evaluation without seeing the stone yourself. No where did I say that all of OWD stock was superior. I did say that they often have superior stones at lesser prices.

Perhaps instead of quizzing me, we should be asking those with higher prices to justify what is driving their higher price. Is it massive overhead? An inability to purchase low due to low volume? Lack of reasonable sources? What does the consumer get out of their pricing problems?
Sorry..., I wrote badly...
37.gif


I mean...., one cannot compare old cuts the (same) way one can compare rb''s or the majority of the other modern cut fancy shapes... (if not seen IRL)
 

strmrdr

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Date: 2/13/2009 2:37:45 PM
Author: coatimundi
Date: 2/13/2009 2:04:21 PM

Author: coatimundi

Storm and DiaGem--when did faceted girdles emerge? Thanks!


Anyone??
tough question, in some ways they came first but I have no idea when the modern type of faceted girdles became common.
My guess is sometime well after ww2.
 

Rockdiamond

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Coati- I''m sure you know this, but in terms of girdles, we need to draw a distinction- there''s a number of types of polished girdles- faceting is one, and a polished girdle is another.
To be clear- I''m saying a faceted girdle has a lot of little facets going all the way around the diamond, while a polished girdle is smooth all the way around.

The bruting machine- developed around 1890 made a bruted girdle.
I''m also interested to see what the responses about when polishing and faceting began.

Thanks Storm- that''s my goal!!


Purrfect- it''s easy to look only at one side- which is "what''s the price?"
If we''re shopping for flat screen TV''s it makes all the sense in the world- A 42inch Panasonic model XXXXX is the same in any store.
But with a diamond, even the same stone can really have different value based on where you buy it, and what the sellers offer.
Without question, the least costly way to sell diamonds is the virtual list.
And for those who like that manner of shopping, it generally means the lowest prices.
But sellers who add a lot of additional value deserve a higher price than someone who simply drop ships the stone- I think we''ve seen that here on PS many times.
Not every vendor charges the same for the same diamond- and it''s been shown that there''s a difference in value which is worth it to some people.
For you, maybe giving up some of the bells and whistles- such as trade up policy- may be the right choice- others want such services, and realize they cost money.

When setting up a business, it''s crucial to keep in mind profitability, as well as competitiveness. I''ll bet a lot of businesses could lower prices if they reduced services- and maybe that''s the right answer for some.

When I buy, I prefer quality and service. I''m not looking necessarily for the lowest price. Of course I don;t want to overpay, but leaving a little meat on the bone promotes better long term relationships......and relationships with cutters are crucial to a successful diamond business.

It''s possible that someone purchasing only one diamond, and not caring where they buy it, will place a low price at the top of their list of considerations..
But others are looking for more- I don''t believe that everyone would be happy if all vendors were only trying to be "cheap".


Diagem- sorry to be thick but I didn;t understand, and I''m really interested in your opinion- do you feel there are cases where a noticeably brighter old stone is worth more?
 

coatimundi_org

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Date: 2/13/2009 2:43:58 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Coati- I'm sure you know this, but in terms of girdles, we need to draw a distinction- there's a number of types of polished girdles- faceting is one, and a polished girdle is another.

Yes, and I'm solely referring to faceted girdles.

I'm guessing 1970s?
 

strmrdr

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Date: 2/13/2009 2:45:42 PM
Author: coatimundi
Date: 2/13/2009 2:43:58 PM

Author: Rockdiamond

Coati- I''m sure you know this, but in terms of girdles, we need to draw a distinction- there''s a number of types of polished girdles- faceting is one, and a polished girdle is another.


Yes, and I''m solely referring to faceted girdles.


I''m guessing 1970s?
start another thread asking the question.
I bet someone around here knows.
 

diagem

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Date: 2/13/2009 1:32:39 PM
Author: purrfectpear

Date: 2/13/2009 1:13:01 PM
Author: DiaGem


Date: 2/13/2009 12:53:55 PM
Author: purrfectpear
Sure, the same way I compare RB''s using the pricescope tool at the top. Look for the same specs, click on the links, check out the 40x mag pictures, GIA reports, etc. and compare price.

In the case of Old World Diamonds, compare size measurements, depth, table, color, clarity, and either click on the magnified pic, or else call Adam and have him send you pics.

It''s not rocket science.
1.gif


I know who works on a minimal margin and who doesn''t. If you can buy the diamond you want at a lesser price, well, that only makes sense now doesn''t it?
Some reality/facts...

Why would you compare a ''fancy'' shape to a RB? (if you have an answer..., I would be happy to hear.)
+
Specs dont tell much vs. RB specs....
+
Pictures just reveal ''just'' a ''minute frame'' of the potential reality...
+
GIA or any other report can tell you (practically) nothing on OMC''s or any other old cuts (period).

(=) ---------------------------- (=)

Can old-cuts be compared based on the above??

(Answer = No)
You misunderstood my post, I should have been clearer. I was saying when I compare RB''s I use the pricescope tool (not when I compare old cuts).

When I compare old cut pricing, I use Old World as they have hundreds, list the specs online along with pics and prices. Some have GIA and some have EGL reports. It''s just another tool, nothing more. As to pictures, well that''s what is being offered by EricaGrace or DBL. You use pictures to narrow your choices. You call the stone IN to make your final selection. No where did I say that you could make a complete evaluation without seeing the stone yourself. No where did I say that all of OWD stock was superior. I did say that they often have superior stones at lesser prices.

Perhaps instead of quizzing me, we should be asking those with higher prices to justify what is driving their higher price. Is it massive overhead? An inability to purchase low due to low volume? Lack of reasonable sources? What does the consumer get out of their pricing problems?
I am not quizzing for attack reasons..., I realy am interested in understanding your (and consumers in general) way of thinking.
And I am attempting to show you (and other consumers) another point of view..., in this case mine...
2.gif
.

I am not entering into your conversation on OWD..., (thats not my issue.) But prices are justifiable simply because the large majority of old-cuts are different! What you see at one seller..., you simply wont see at the other.

But dont forget you ( the consumer) re part of the equation that set the prices.

While reading this thread with great interest...
I notice a lot of similarities in language as when reading threads on modern cut Diamonds.
I feel the need to remind that Old-Cuts are different creatures! Their evaluation is based on beauty..., and beauty alone! (Sure..., the four C''s apply as well
2.gif
)

Words such as "superior make" and others just doesnt sound belonging when it comes to Od Cuts.


 

ericad

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Date: 2/13/2009 2:19:51 PM
Author: strmrdr
Date: 2/13/2009 10:25:04 AM

Author: Rockdiamond


Storm- no question this site is largely based on consumer''s personal experiences, a great thing.


But do you feel that when a totally inappropriate correlation is drawn, it''s balanced and fair to allow the vendor to respond?


They are talking the time to participate and share a tradesperson viewpoint..... I believe that is also valuable to readers.

Educate don''t preach or one will come across as scolding and get hammered.


I would love to hear Erica''s professional opinion on what considerations she considers important when comparing prices and what she looks for in these stones.

Okie-dokie-artichokie, Karl. Point taken.

As for what to look for in an old cut, I''m afraid I''ll sound like a broken record (and not a very technical one at that). We always tell buyers to let their eyes and hearts be the judge. Obviously specs are the primary means of narrowing down one''s selection. But beyond that, the diamond simply has to speak to you. What I like in an old cut is very different from what Grace likes in an old cut, for example. She and I will look at a tray of stones and often agree on which ones to purchase for the store, but she and I have never once fought over the same stone for a personal piece (lucky for her, cuz I''m quite scrappy when I get mad
9.gif
)

That being said, there are specific things that add value to an old cut beyond its specs, as we all know. A stone''s make (symmetry, proportions, etc.) and condition will bring the price up or down compared to others with similar specs. But again, this is not relevant to a stone''s desirability to a particular buyer, but just a means of arriving at a fair market price and finding some way to comp unique stones to other unique stones which are similar, though never exactly the same.
 

Rockdiamond

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I posted this on the other thread coati started

"I just got off the phone with my old friend "Sam Spade"- who was cutting diamonds before WWII.
He remembered that Willie Goldberg was faceting girdles in the 1950''s- although it was not common at that time.
Sam feels that Willie and his partner at the time really brought faceted girdles to the forefront.
Sam also believes that a very good G color with a bruted girdle can become an F if you facet the girdle."


Diagem- I could not agree more with you....each stone -especially one of a kind stones- must be judged on their own merit.
What''s your take on what I''m calling "twisted" stones- where the culet is off center.
If we were trying to establish some rough guidelines would you feel that this might be a detraction?
 

diagem

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Date: 2/13/2009 2:43:58 PM
Author: Rockdiamond


Diagem- sorry to be thick but I didn;t understand, and I''m really interested in your opinion- do you feel there are cases where a noticeably brighter old stone is worth more?
David..., stop thinking like a Diamond dealer for just a sec.
31.gif
, put some thought into it..

Brilliance and brightness are just a part of the whole called beauty..., Beauty is the major weight of the value for old cuts! (no Diamond dealer thinking as re-cutiing options and so on....
2.gif
)

Thats the reason evaluating old cuts differ from modern cut practices...
Its a different world and profession.

If you are genuinely interested in this subject..., there is plenty of reading materials out there..., read, read and more read...., no short-cuts I am afraid.
 

diagem

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Date: 2/13/2009 3:43:54 PM
Author: Rockdiamond

Diagem- I could not agree more with you....each stone -especially one of a kind stones- must be judged on their own merit.
What''s your take on what I''m calling ''twisted'' stones- where the culet is off center.
If we were trying to establish some rough guidelines would you feel that this might be a detraction?
`David you are thinking too fast..., and not getting anywhere and making me tired....
2.gif


Twisted in whose eyes??? The Diamond dealers eyes?
27.gif

Try to establish rough guidelines for "rough" if you want..., you cant establish guidelines on beauty..., (let alone the stories that accompany these Old-Cuts.)
 

Rockdiamond

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Thank you Diagem!!
It's true that people dealing in modern rough, and polished are always seeming to look at an old stone only as a re-cut possibility.
But over the last week, I've really gotten to see a lot of other viewpoints- and I've looked at a large number of Old mine and antique cuts this past week.
Eye opening really- I really thought they'd be priced far less than their modern counterparts, and that's just NOT the case from what I see here in the market..

I don't know about you guys, but for me, the internet has, to a large degree, supplanted me reading a book- and this conversation has already proven extremely enlightening for me.

In terms of the brightness, I suppose my opinion will always be colored by my experience in modern goods- but again, this has really been eye opening for me.

What about the issue of non centered culets?
I'd really be interested in anyone's take on this.

Purrfect- how do you feel about a stone who's culet is clearly off center...would that bother you??


Edited to address Diagem, who posted while I did: thank you -and sorry if my questions seem tiring.
For sure there's different ways to look at this and I find all the input enlightening- even if we can't draw hard fast rules, opinions are important!
 

strmrdr

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Date: 2/13/2009 3:57:58 PM
Author: Rockdiamond



What about the issue of non centered culets?

I''d really be interested in anyone''s take on this.
It bugs me and I don''t particularly care for it.
But that said some stones just have a certain something that would make me overlook it.
I love precision cutting.
But precision cutting does not have to equal cookie cutter.
Precise cutting but unique in appearance is my true love.
If I was a billionaire I would keep Diagem busy for the next 10 years cutting diamonds for me and wifey2b.
A new design each week :}
 

ericad

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I think it depends on how noticeable the off center culet is to the naked eye, and what size the stone is. If the off center culet is clearly noticeable at normal viewing distance, I would adjust pricing accordingly (but would never recut it for that reason unless the stone is really ugly or damaged). A visibly off center culet is harder to sell and will limit the pool of buyers who will find the diamond appealing. If it's only noticeable under magnification then I would not allow that factor to have significant impact on price, since so much about old cut pricing has to do with the visual beauty of a stone, subjective as that may be. And remember, with old cuts, there will be a lot of things that might be considered "technically" imperfect but don't impact pricing the way these things would for modern stones.

And my opinion on your earlier question regarding old antique cuts versus new, I would take an old stone any day of the week. Newly cut old style cushions, for example, look mechanical, clinical, far too "perfect" (don't even get me started on those perfectly rectangular culets!) and don't hold any of the charm or character of a vintage stone FOR ME. This is because what I think is wonderful about an old stone is its history, what has been preserved for 100+ years, the stories it could tell, the energy it has absorbed from the world passing by around it. It's the difference between an original painting or antique piece of furniture versus a chain store reproduction. I'll take the old guy :)
 

LGK

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In an otherwise yummy antique cut, I could forgive an off center culet, especially if it wasn''t readily apparent. If it had a lot of life, edge to edge sparkle with a lot of fire, a pretty pattern and no detracting chips or inclusions, and a color I liked (I like about M ideally) I wouldn''t care if the culet was off center. If it had other issues, like detracting darkness, sparkle only in the middle or the edge, or something else going on- I''d probably consider the off center culet to be an additional issue.
 

Rockdiamond

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wife2b???
Storm- are you engaged????
 

mausketeer

Shiny_Rock
Joined
Jul 20, 2007
Messages
380
Hey guys - is it okay if a rank amateur jumps in and asks a question regarding appraisals of old cuts? If an old cut is judged by "the eye", how does that work as far as appraisals go? (for insurance and replacement purposes)

If an appraiser can say that say, a new RB is X colour, X carat, X clarity etc and therefore replacement value would equal X amount, is there a different criteria for the appraisal of an old stone considering the variables in all of these categories?

Let me know if you think this should be on a new thread as well..... thanks!
 
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