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Beautiful OMC

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Upgradable

Ideal_Rock
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New stone posted at DBL. Luscious!!

David, this is a stunner!!

DavidsOMC.JPG
 

Rockdiamond

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Thank you upgradable!

I don''t have all that much experience with old diamonds.
I''m looking to learn about the girdles on unrestored old mine diamonds.


I saw another old mine stone with a thin girdle, and it was really ....chewed up looking.
The stone you posted was re-polished- including the girdle.

I did learn that OEC''s came into being as an imporvment over the old mine cut due to the advance in cutting thechnology that allowed the cutter to "girdle" the diamond- so that they could be round.

Anyone famiiar with what type of girdle was common on old mine diamonds?
 

Upgradable

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Grace is our resident old cut expert. In time I''m sure she''ll be attracted to this post.
 

HeartingDiamonds

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Indeed a very pretty stone, David! Any clue as to the stone''s history?

Not quite sure how to answer your "girdle" question, to be quite frank. We come across old cuts with all types of girdles - ranging from extremely thin to extremely thick - and we have find no correlation between girdle thickness and an old cut''s make and face up look.

Old Euros do have better symmetry than old mine cuts BUT it does not necessarily follow that Old Euros are prettier cut of the two. I find Old Mines and Antique Cushions to be extremely charming in their own lumpy, chunky kind of way. Its definitely one of those "whatever floats your boat" kinda situation
.

Can you tell that I love them all?
 

Rockdiamond

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Thanks Grace!
I should have been more clear in my question.
I meant to ask- are the girdles of older diamonds generally high polished?
I was thinking of maybe a "frosted girdle" on an old mine diamond- translucent as opposed to transparent. Like a foggy mirror when you get out of the shower.

No question, both thick and thin girdles can be gorgeous.

I'm not sure of the stone's history past the fact it was re polished last week.
I didn't see it before- but the diamond now has a modern girdle- I was thinking that might give the stone a bit more brilliance.
It's cool because it seems they went over every facet- no abrasion whatsoever.

I'm sure it's not always possible to re-polish stones like this.
The one upgradable posted does have a thick girdle.
If there's a thin girdle I'll bet there's a lot more loss when you fix them....
Are minor surface abrasions are acceptable in older diamonds?


PS sorry if I ask too many questions, I love them too!
 

Rockdiamond

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Re Surface abrasions....
I suppose I should have asked if you feel that older stones are better left in original condition....or to be repaired...
 

glitterata

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I''ve been wondering about the same thing.

I have two old diamonds, one from each grandmother, both from the 1920s. Both have frosted--that is, unshiny, untransparent--girdles. Is that called "bruted," or is bruted something else?

One of my diamonds is an L and the other is an F. I was told that the frosted girdle helps lower colors look whiter, but my colorless (F) diamond also has a frosted girdle.

Both have small naturals on their girdles; I''ve wondered whether that had something to do with the decision not to polish the girdle. Is that possible?

Come to think of it, as of last week I have three old diamonds from the 1920s. Let''s see if the other one has a frosted girdle... Yes, it does. I can''t tell if it has any naturals, though, because too much of the girdle is hidden by the setting.

Can it be possible that they didn''t have the technology to polish the girdle back then? That doesn''t make sense to me, since they obviously had the technology to polish the facets! Is it harder to polish a girdle?
 

arjunajane

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Great question, I too would love to know. Because of this thread I just realized my new oec also has a frosted girdle - how interesting!
 

LGK

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All OECs and OMCs I've ever seen have bruted / frosted girdles. (Of course, that's not to say all do- just all the... few dozen?... I've ever seen). I don't believe it's thought to make any difference at all in the appearance or light return, it's just how they finished girdles until about the 1970s if I remember right. I'm not sure if it was done because that was the state of the technology, or it was just the way they did it because of tradition.

The OMC is gorgeous, I really like the patterning on it.

I think the decision to repolish a stone is definitely a case by case thing. My larger OEC has an extremely thin girdle all the way around and a (non eye visible) nick on it. However, since it's right on the threshold of a "critical" weight- 3.55ct- the appraiser I took it to, who was experienced with antique stones, said it was not a good idea to recut it. She felt that since it wasn't visible without a loupe, there was too much risk recutting a rock with an extremely thin girdle. Also, lots of antique stones have a few nicks- it's pretty typical. Most of us who like the quirkiness of antique stones can forgive a few small non visible nicks. If a stone had a thicker girdle, or had a chip that was big enough to see, it would probably be a better candidate for repolishing.
 

Rockdiamond

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Thank you so much guys!
I recently saw a 2.38ct OMC that had a very thin girdle, with a lot of eye visible abrasions- it looked as if someone had chewed on the girdle.
To my eye there were areas that had already been repaired leading me to believe that further repair was economically unfeasible ( and the guy wanted a STOOOPID price) so we did not buy.
Have you guys seen other stones like LittleGreyKitten''s that didn''t make sense to re-cut?

In terms of the girdle- I really wish I had the chance to inspect the OMC at the top of this thread before the re-polish- I really do believe the polished girdle makes a difference in the brilliance.
I suspected the old ones had bruted girdles.
AS I mentioned earlier I have learned the it was the development of a machine that allows cutters to truly make a round diamonds ( OEC) that changed how girdles are polished.
 

Diamond*Dana

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Stunning!
Did you happen to notice the heart in the upper right center? What a sweet picture!
 

HeartingDiamonds

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Date: 2/11/2009 10:54:45 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thanks Grace!

I should have been more clear in my question.

I meant to ask- are the girdles of older diamonds generally high polished?

I was thinking of maybe a ''frosted girdle'' on an old mine diamond- translucent as opposed to transparent. Like a foggy mirror when you get out of the shower.


No question, both thick and thin girdles can be gorgeous.


I''m not sure of the stone''s history past the fact it was re polished last week.

I didn''t see it before- but the diamond now has a modern girdle- I was thinking that might give the stone a bit more brilliance.

It''s cool because it seems they went over every facet- no abrasion whatsoever.


I''m sure it''s not always possible to re-polish stones like this.

The one upgradable posted does have a thick girdle.

If there''s a thin girdle I''ll bet there''s a lot more loss when you fix them....

Are minor surface abrasions are acceptable in older diamonds?



PS sorry if I ask too many questions, I love them too!
I honestly do not think that I have come across a single diamond that had a polished girdle! And you bring an interesting point about whether a diamond with a polished girdle could possibly be more brilliant...Hhhmmmm...

Surface abrasions, bearding, and minor nicks and chips are certainly acceptable in old cuts. As a matter of fact, its one of the things that we inspect for when we purchase stones - a very non-scientific method of assuring ourselves that we are, indeed, looking at an antique diamond vs one that is recently cut (in particular, cushions). Of course, this is not to say that there are not antique diamonds out there that are in pristine condition!

We typically DO NOT advocate a repolish if the girdle is in good shape. Personally, though, I like to repolish old cuts if the surface abrasions make the stone look dull and lifeless, and if the facets have abraded over time. Like LGK stated, its really a case-by-case decision.
 

strmrdr

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Date: 2/11/2009 8:44:36 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thank you upgradable!


I don't have all that much experience with old diamonds.

I'm looking to learn about the girdles on unrestored old mine diamonds.



I saw another old mine stone with a thin girdle, and it was really ....chewed up looking.

The stone you posted was re-polished- including the girdle.


I did learn that OEC's came into being as an imporvment over the old mine cut due to the advance in cutting thechnology that allowed the cutter to 'girdle' the diamond- so that they could be round.


Anyone famiiar with what type of girdle was common on old mine diamonds?
David,
If you are interested in learning the details of these cuts I strongly recommend Al's book:
http://journal.pricescope.com/Articles/53/1/American-Cut---The-First-100-Years%2c-by-Al-Gilbertson%2c-GG.aspx

To answer your question truly round stones came into being with the advent of the mechanical bruting machine patented in 1873
When it came into widespread use in the 1900s the age of the omc was over.
From there it gets really complicated.

edit:
left some off... before that they were hand polished and varied from maker to maker.
Someone else will know better than me but the few I have seen where what I would call wavy and frosted at best.
 

purrfectpear

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I find that Adam from Old World Diamonds knows a lot about all the old cuts since that is what they specialize in. He''s in your neighborhood David.

That is a very pretty diamond, but you''re about $800 higher than the comparable mine cut at Old World
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Thank you Purrfect!
I know Adam personally- nice site, and also a very nice guy!

We also have some amazing sources for old mine diamonds- we''ll be adding some new ones soon.
IN terms of trying to compare prices on one stone versus the next, it''s not always that simple.
For example you''d need to take into account the condition and overall look of the diamond.
The one that upgradable posted is totally clean ( in terms of abrasions) and more symmetrical than many I''ve seen.
Personally I like to see the culet pretty close to the center of the diamond although many old mine cuts have the culet nowhere near the center.
Not that that''s bad, per se- but it''s personal preference. I did feel that these factors made the stone in question worthwhile at the price- but of course, it''s personal preference.

Storm- thanks for the link! Hopefully I''ll have a chance to take a look at it soon.

Yes, I was referring to the "bruting machine"- I did not know the exact date- but I also learned about how that machine basically puts the diamond table down, onto a dowel- as the dowel spins, and the diamond''s girdle is created, you end up with a round diamond. That''s why old mine cuts have irregular shapes
 

HeartingDiamonds

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Date: 2/12/2009 3:06:18 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thank you Purrfect!
IN terms of trying to compare prices on one stone versus the next, it''s not always that simple.
For example you''d need to take into account the condition and overall look of the diamond.
Ditto. There are many factors affecting pricing - carat weight, color and clarity is just a portion of it. You will find huge price discrepancies on 2 stones that actually appear identical on paper - its all about the make.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Grace- thank you so much for sharing- your words mean a lot as I''ve admired your site, and stones for a while!.

IN terms of what is really old, and what is new....
Do you feel that it''s an important distinction?
In other words, if a cutter cut a fresh piece of rough to look just like an Old Mine Cut last week- do you feel the value be different from a stone cut in 1890?
 

purrfectpear

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Date: 2/12/2009 4:38:07 PM
Author: HeartingDiamonds

Date: 2/12/2009 3:06:18 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thank you Purrfect!
IN terms of trying to compare prices on one stone versus the next, it''s not always that simple.
For example you''d need to take into account the condition and overall look of the diamond.
Ditto. There are many factors affecting pricing - carat weight, color and clarity is just a portion of it. You will find huge price discrepancies on 2 stones that actually appear identical on paper - its all about the make.
YMMV, but for someone looking for old stones they would be my FIRST "go to" place, especially when they often offer a superior make at a lesser price. Perhaps the "competitors" will begin pricing more competively, no?
 

HeartingDiamonds

Brilliant_Rock
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David, I would say yes, but then again, I am a purist!

I have seen quite a few newly cut stones cut in the chunky, 8-pav main style, complete with a culet and somehow, I can still tell the difference. I love the charm, the personality and the character of the old cuts - they''re almost always never perfectly round nor symmetrical, the culet is too big and/or off-center just so, the girdle just wonky enough.

Of course, I am not saying that newly-cut, antique style diamond are not beautiful in their own right, they are!! I just don''t connect with them as well and quite frankly, I love the romance and history of old stones.

Oh, and between 2 identical stones with one being a true vintage cut and the other a newly cut, there will be a premium for the antique cut.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Thanks Grace- I see what you mean!
purrfect...whats YMMV?

By the way, it''s easy to feel like diamond sellers pay $1 for the stone, and sell it for $5000. That we can simply control the price. If only.
It''s incredibly competitive- so keeping a sharp price always needs to be at the forefront. Although OMC, and OEC stones are "used" they still hold great value at the wholesale level.
And as we''ve already mentioned, trying to look at two OMC''s based on a single photo- or stats alone- and saying one is $800 too expensive overlooks the true value in any diamond. The old world site is nice- but I''m curious what would lead you to believe the make of their stones is better?
 

HeartingDiamonds

Brilliant_Rock
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David, as far as I can tell - Your Mileage May Vary?

I''m sure PP will hop in soon to confirm
.
 

purrfectpear

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Yep, it''s your mileage may vary....aka opinions.

I''ve purchased three diamonds from Old World and they have been less expensive than any listed with pricescope, or EricaGrace. Consequently I trust Adam and love his pricing. Perhaps he just has a source for diamonds that is less expensive? He has been quite honest when I''ve called about a diamond that was priced low and he felt I would not be happy with it. That''s the type of customer service I expect from them. I''ve not seen EricaGrace stones in person, but am basing my evaluation on the excellent photos and videos they provide. Their stock is gorgeous, but I do believe in the last year their prices have been creeping up in the retail level. Earlier they would have been a vendor that I would consider as their prices were most reasonable in my opinion. Since there are just the two of them and no brick and mortar overhead, I''m somewhat bummed that they are now in the realm of larger retail pricing. It''s their online website to price as they wish.


Generally I pick up a lot of my OEC and OMC diamonds from eBay. So far I''ve been quite pleased, however eBay isn''t for everyone.

As to the question about new vs. old "old cut" diamonds, I can usually tell the difference. The new cuts are too symmetrical for me. I don''t want wonky, but I don''t want an antique cushion to look perfectly square or rectangular either. I like them "pillow-y.
 

ericad

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Date: 2/12/2009 5:34:44 PM
Author: purrfectpear
Date: 2/12/2009 4:38:07 PM

Author: HeartingDiamonds


Date: 2/12/2009 3:06:18 PM

Author: Rockdiamond

Thank you Purrfect!

IN terms of trying to compare prices on one stone versus the next, it's not always that simple.

For example you'd need to take into account the condition and overall look of the diamond.

Ditto. There are many factors affecting pricing - carat weight, color and clarity is just a portion of it. You will find huge price discrepancies on 2 stones that actually appear identical on paper - its all about the make.
YMMV, but for someone looking for old stones they would be my FIRST 'go to' place, especially when they often offer a superior make at a lesser price. Perhaps the 'competitors' will begin pricing more competively, no?
It's clear you have had a terrific experience with OWD and that you recommend them highly every chance you get (Adam owes you a fruit basket). But I would urge you not to judge stones based on specs and pics alone. And to state that OWD offers a superior make is a very broad generalization. I am quite familiar with their inventory and don't feel that every stone they carry is of a superior make. There certainly are superior stones to be found among the hundreds of listings but pulling pricing comps based only on the specs they list is not an accurate way to compare vendors' inventory or pricing.
 

strmrdr

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Date: 2/12/2009 11:22:49 PM
Author: ericad

It's clear you have had a terrific experience with OWD and that you recommend them highly every chance you get (Adam owes you a fruit basket). But I would urge you not to judge stones based on specs and pics alone. And to state that OWD offers a superior make is a very broad generalization. I am quite familiar with their inventory and don't feel that every stone they carry is of a superior make. There certainly are superior stones to be found among the hundreds of listings but pulling pricing comps based only on the specs they list is not an accurate way to compare vendors' inventory or pricing.
purrfectpear's personal experience is 100% appropriate to post here.
I appreciate it. Thank you purrfectpear.

Vendors coming across as if they are scolding consumers will lead to a prompt and very negative reaction.
 

Rockdiamond

Ideal_Rock
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Erica and or Grace- or anyone else who is interested:
DO you feel that OMC''s that are..."twisted"- I mean to say ones where the culet is far off center- visibly so- do you feel that is a negative, in terms of the make?

Personally, I prefer if the culet seems at least close to center, but what''s the general view on it?


Storm- no question this site is largely based on consumer''s personal experiences, a great thing.
But do you feel that when a totally inappropriate correlation is drawn, it''s balanced and fair to allow the vendor to respond?
They are talking the time to participate and share a tradesperson viewpoint..... I believe that is also valuable to readers.

Purrfect may love OWD- that''s awesome! Maybe she''s found them to be priced more aggressively- that may or may not be the case.

Looking at realistically it can''t be proved because we''d need to have two identical OMC diamonds to fairly say one seller is $800 less- and of course that''s not the case. If for example, there''s two vendors offering the same "virtual stone" then we can see how the pricing stacks up head to head.
Making a broad generalization like " they offer a superior make at a lesser price" is inaccurate ( anyone who takes pride in what they do might even see it as an insult), and seems to beg a response.
You could make the point to just allow the reader to draw their own conclusion, but isn''t "nice" worth anything?
 

glitterata

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Purrfectpear had a good experience with OWD. She says she bought three diamonds from him which she loves and which were less expensive than what she found on Erika's site. She never said all his stones are perfect or that nobody should buy from Erika--she just said in HER EXPERIENCE she had found the diamonds she was looking for to be less expensive from OWD and that she believes he often has good stuff for less money.

Maybe Erika doesn't like OWD's stones. But it's not her place to criticize another vendor's offerings--she's a vendor herself. She has many happy customers here who can chime in to recommend her if they want.

Scolding a consumer for preferring another store's goods--or in your case, David, arguing with Storm for pointing this out--will not make potential customers feel good about you and your business.

What's the point of winning every argument and shooting down every criticism if you alienate potential customers when you do it?

Erika's post struck me as atypical of how she usually operates (especially the fruit basket remark, which sounded pretty sarcastic). She's usually very helpful and gracious. I thought Storm was kind to point it out, in case Erika didn't notice her scolding tone. I'm sure she doesn't want to come across as scolding customers and badmouthing competitors.
 

diagem

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Date: 2/11/2009 10:54:45 PM
Author: Rockdiamond
Thanks Grace!
I should have been more clear in my question.
I meant to ask- are the girdles of older diamonds generally high polished?
I was thinking of maybe a ''frosted girdle'' on an old mine diamond- translucent as opposed to transparent. Like a foggy mirror when you get out of the shower.

No question, both thick and thin girdles can be gorgeous.

I''m not sure of the stone''s history past the fact it was re polished last week.
I didn''t see it before- but the diamond now has a modern girdle- I was thinking that might give the stone a bit more brilliance.
It''s cool because it seems they went over every facet- no abrasion whatsoever.

I''m sure it''s not always possible to re-polish stones like this.
The one upgradable posted does have a thick girdle.
If there''s a thin girdle I''ll bet there''s a lot more loss when you fix them....
Are minor surface abrasions are acceptable in older diamonds?


PS sorry if I ask too many questions, I love them too!
Hi David,

An important fact....

When talking about Antique cuts...., "more brilliance" is not (such important) key to appearance!
 

HeartingDiamonds

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Date: 2/13/2009 10:25:04 AM
Author: Rockdiamond
Erica and or Grace- or anyone else who is interested:

DO you feel that OMC's that are...'twisted'- I mean to say ones where the culet is far off center- visibly so- do you feel that is a negative, in terms of the make?

Personally, I prefer if the culet seems at least close to center, but what's the general view on it?
Let's get back to the topic here, shall we?

Dia-gem, thanks for your input - I was wishing you would hop in when the question was first asked above (Upgradeable was very generous in stating that I am an old cut resident expert but that distinction really belongs to you).

David, never heard the word "twisted" used to describe off-center culets before so it made me giggle.

Slightly off-center culets do not ruin a beautiful diamond, but horribly lopsided ones *may*.

And lastly (although Erica certainly does not need me to defend her), the gist of Erica's post is not really to scold anyone, but really to try to say that there are many many factors to be considered when looking at antique stones - it would be a disservice to anyone to go by sweeping generalizations. I had have the pleasure of communicating with PP sometime last year when she was eyeing one of our diamonds. She eventually went with OWD, and I was happy that she's found the diamond that worked within her budget and one that she loved. We have nothing against Adam - he seems to be a great guy! Having many players in the field is healthy for everyone concerned.
 

diagem

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Date: 2/12/2009 1:09:05 PM
Author: purrfectpear
I find that Adam from Old World Diamonds knows a lot about all the old cuts since that is what they specialize in. He's in your neighborhood David.

That is a very pretty diamond, but you're about $800 higher than the comparable mine cut at Old World
PP..., can you please elaborate more on how you categorize "comparable" in this specific example?
Just want to understand the consumer's way of thinking on the issue
.

Better yet..., can you show us the two examples you compare?
 
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