Appraisals - should you tell ''em the color/clarity/carat first?

[MichaelF]

Cut Nut...

BTW we would all love to see a photo of your legs Rich

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[/quote]

Speak for your self! With the way this thread is going you'll cause Leo to create a forum for the displaying of leg pics...

 

[MichaelF]

Hest...

If she asks for the info and you say "no" it is a refusal, at least IMHO... As for her request for the cert go back and look at the trailing phrase... Oh, but to save you the search time it reads... "...,after the appraisal."

I suppose I'm a little more practical about this... I hired someone at $150.00 per hour to do a job. I want to make their efforts as efficient as possible. Having the cert was an important part of the process for the Appraiser is validating not just the stone, but the cert. There are counterfits... Or so I have read...

Michael

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On 7/29/2003 12:12:45 PM Hest88 wrote:
No, I don't think of it as refusing information, I think of it as asking for an independent, uninfluenced second opinion.

Plus, in this case, didn't OP's appraiser say she wants the info to "save her a lot of research time"? Doesn't that imply that she's basically going to do a cursory check of the stone and, unless there's an egregious difference, parrot what the cert says? How is that independent?
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[fire&ice]

Actually Lawgem, I have a friend who is a Pathologist. He said he often bounces a slide to a fellow collegue to get his unbiased opinion. Then they consult.

In law, I bet you would run a case by another attorney for their view.

Doctor to Doctor. Attorney to Attorney. Cert (appraisal) to Appraiser. I'd still want to have an opinion outside of what the Cert says.

I also think this can be a case by case basis.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 7/29/2003 3:56:31 PM LawGem wrote:
If you were diagnosed with cancer and went for a second opinion, would you withhold the first diagnosis from the second doctor because you wanted an unbiased opinion? If someone came to me with a legal question, I would want all the facts including any work done by previous attorneys, and I would get annoyed if the client were holding things back.

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I can see the conundrum, LawGem, and I guess it boils down to the nature of the service provided and the impact the withheld information would have.

Of course, as an attorney, you'd want facts and work done by other attorneys. The client comes to you for legal advice, and it's important to know what ground has already been covered in charting a course of action for the future. In some legal instances, it would be important to know if a plea was offered and/or rejected. Also, previous decisions, discovery, and all other facts are key for an attorney to determine what the BEST OPTION is now.

In grading a diamond, there isn't (or shouldn't) be anything optional. All the information an appraiser needs to most effectively do his job is right there in the stone...the color, the inclusions, the angles.....they don't change. The only variable is the subjective nature of grading. I think that most people realize that a grading could vary up/down a grade, but more than that would concern me.

I wholeheartedly agree with Rich S. that having the cert up front would likely influence an appraiser. That's no different from many here who've commented that they couldn't see an inclusion until they saw it under mag, and now they always "see" it because they know where it is.

In the appraisal world, I see two scenarios. 1) I want the appraiser to verify that indeed possess the diamond that was represented to me at time of sale. In that instance, yes, I can see the validity in providing the cert and asking "does this diamond match the cert?" 2) I want the appraiser to give me HIS opinion on the elements of the stone. In this instance, no, I wouldn't provide the cert.

I don't understand at all the suggestion that having the cert up front would "save research time". Does that mean he won't examine it himself under magnification? Won't plot inclusions? Exactly what tasks would be eliminated by having the cert up front?

True story....one of my colleagues bought a tanzanite/diamond ring. Took it to 3 jewelry stores for appraisal. It appraised similarly (around $3500-$3700) at two stores who had no idea what she paid for it; at the third, she made the mistake of answering the question "how much did you pay for it". The appraisal there came back significantly less, and only $175 more than she paid for it....which was nearly $1500 less than what the other two quoted!

 

[aljdewey]

On a side note....this practice with respect to auto repair shops used to bug the crap out of me, too!

Car got hit....insurance wanted 3 estimates. Shop #1 and Shop #2 gave estimates. Shop #3 says to me, well what did the other ones say? I replied "I'd rather not say, can you please give me YOUR estimate of how much the repairs will run?"

He tells me that he's asking because if I want Shop #1 or 2 to do the work, then he'll quote slightly higher than them; if I want him to do the work, he'll quote just below them.

It took me patiently explaining THREE TIMES that I didn't give a flip who did the work, I just wanted the damn appraisal!!!

 

[pricescope]

I think you guys are talking about two different services, which should cost differently as well.

1. Checking whether a diamond matches its grading report (certificate) plus basic appraisal. Shouldn't cost you much (about $30 give or take).

2. Full and independent analysis of a stone without showing original grading report. It is similar to grading the stone again and might cost depending on the stone size some $150 - $200. For this money you can send the stone to another grading lab (GIA or AGS) as well.

I might be mistaken of course. Let real appraisers correct me if I'm wrong

 

[mike04456]

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On 7/29/2003 4:16

8 PM fire&ice wrote:
Actually Lawgem, I have a friend who is a Pathologist. He said he often bounces a slide to a fellow collegue to get his unbiased opinion. Then they consult.

In law, I bet you would run a case by another attorney for their view.

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Indeed I do, and I have many times. But I think that aljdewey is right in that this may be an apples and oranges comparison. I don't know that I've ever run a legal conundrum past a colleague while withholding certain information to see what they say.

If we can consider another metaphor, in scientific publishing, all manuscripts submitted to a journal go through peer review, which is usually double-blind in that the authors don't know who the referees are and the referees don't know who the authors are, nor do they know what the other referees think of the manuscript. I don't know that that's something that really needs to be done with a diamond, however.

Leonid has a good point that if you just want the diamond checked against the report, it's a much simpler operation.

I think it boils down to how suspicious you want to be about the whole process.

 

[dimonbob]

Let me let you people in on a little secret...
I once was a GIA diamond grader at GTL in Santa Monica. I am also a highly qualified appraiser. Not long ago I worked for a diamond wholesaler. Before we sent the diamonds into GIA or AGS we would grade the diamonds. When they returned from the Lab we would check and see how close we were. Were we 100% correct...NO WAY. Was GIA or AGS right or were we? Who knows! Sometimes they would come back and we would disagree.

Who do you think is the better diamond grader? The labs, the wholesaler, or some "Independent Appraiser" that may grade only a few diamonds a week.

Did you know that taking a cold medicine will effect your color vision? Did you know that having a few too many drinks the night before will effect you color vision?

Yes, appraising is subjective but if you are the one that paid good money for your beautiful diamond and you are happy about your purchase and some Independant Appraiser who happens to be the only one within 20 miles of you calls your diamond one grade below what you thought your diamond was, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO FEEL? If you had given him the certificate, maybe you would save yourself some hurt feelings.

Richard... Are you 100% correct 100% of the time? I will admit the I am not!

 

[ccuheartnurse]

Bob,
Tsk, tsk, tsk, do I sense some tension & animosity? What happened to a friendly debate? I have some cheese for that whine. I'm not particularly proud that I've brought myself to your 4 yr old level. But heck, I'm smiling.

By the way, dont pick on Richard cause I like him.

Judy

 

[Richard Sherwood]

...

 

[Richard Sherwood]

That's on a good day of course...

 

[mike04456]

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On 7/29/2003 6:19:56 PM Richard Sherwood wrote:

That's on a good day of course...

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Of course. Nice, umm, scooter.

 

[Hest88]

Lawgem, I thought about the doctor analogy as well, but felt it was too different.

If, as Leonid said, I'm paying someone to act almost as a notary--either to quickly verify that the stone and cert match, or, if I didn't need verification but only needed something for the insurance guy, then I'd expect to pay about $30. If I'm paying $100 or more, as I did with Dave Atlas for my OMC, then I expect a more thorough analysis. AND, I would want it done the same whether or not a cert was available.

 

[Hest88]

Rich, may I ask where you get your bikini waxed?

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

All this time Rich I thought you were just a pretty face

I have found this discussion interesting and learned from it - Leonid you are correct - we would normally be offering a certification check, which we charge more for because we know an internet purchaser will take up lots of time.

If they request more services of course we offer them.
But I would always point out a certed stone that is a dog - say the one with a cloud that is dull, or an open gletz or more than a grade off (in my opinion) Rich. Of course we do that. But when the cert is there then we will maybe not ask for 2 or 3 opinions between us if the first person who sees it agrees with the cert.

In our case we have 4 registered valuers as well as staff who buy diamonds and so they are really trusted graders. Why waste all those peoples time for the 1 in 10 stones where we disagree.
Does that make sense?

 

[aljdewey]

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On 7/29/2003 5:37

2 PM dimonbob wrote:
Let me let you people in on a little secret...
I once was a GIA diamond grader at GTL in Santa Monica. I am also a highly qualified appraiser. Not long ago I worked for a diamond wholesaler. Before we sent the diamonds into GIA or AGS we would grade the diamonds. When they returned from the Lab we would check and see how close we were. Were we 100% correct...NO WAY. Was GIA or AGS right or were we? Who knows! Sometimes they would come back and we would disagree.

Who do you think is the better diamond grader? The labs, the wholesaler, or some "Independent Appraiser" that may grade only a few diamonds a week.

Did you know that taking a cold medicine will effect your color vision? Did you know that having a few too many drinks the night before will effect you color vision?

Yes, appraising is subjective but if you are the one that paid good money for your beautiful diamond and you are happy about your purchase and some Independant Appraiser who happens to be the only one within 20 miles of you calls your diamond one grade below what you thought your diamond was, HOW ARE YOU GOING TO FEEL? If you had given him the certificate, maybe you would save yourself some hurt feelings.

Richard... Are you 100% correct 100% of the time? I will admit the I am not!
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Bob, are you by chance taking that cold medicine right now? Honestly, I cannot see why you are making this such a contentious issue.

How would I feel if the result of an independent appraisal suggested my diamond was one grade below what I thought it was? I'd feel FINE.....for the millionth time, most of us here realize that grading is subjective. Let me assure you that how I'd feel about the lower grade is mild compared to how I'd feel about the thought that I shelled out over $100 to an appraiser who thinks I'm paying him to tell me what he thinks I want to hear instead of telling me the WAY IT IS.

The point of hiring an appraiser isn't to have someone blow smoke up my proverbial skirt and tell me what a great buy I got......I can get a bunch of other people to do that without paying them over $100.

I don't want an appraiser to yes me to death and make me want to sing "kumbaya" about my purchase. I want him to give me HIS expert OPINION about the properties of the diamond.

Focus with me now, Bob....the word is OPINION. That means it's not expected to be 100% correct all the time. It's meant to say that this is the appraiser's BEST assessment of the diamond, and the expectation is that his variance won't be off by MUCH.

In short, I'd be pis**d if I found out that my F diamond was really a "K". But if an independent appraiser reports that he believes my diamond is a G.....well, no big deal.

You're treating this whole issue as though consumers have a hidden agenda of trying to catch the appraiser in a mistake and then flogging him for it. I seriously don't think that's the point of an independent appraisal for most of us. Time to bring this one down to simmer.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 7/29/2003 9

7

0 PM Cut Nut wrote:
But when the cert is there then we will maybe not ask for 2 or 3 opinions between us if the first person who sees it agrees with the cert.

In our case we have 4 registered valuers as well as staff who buy diamonds and so they are really trusted graders. Why waste all those peoples time for the 1 in 10 stones where we disagree.
Does that make sense?

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Garry, yes from your point of view, I can see where it makes sense to you. And I'd also say that it makes sense me as a consumer if the time/money you save in bypassing your valuers results in you charging me less for the appraisal, and even then ONLY if my goal was to get the least expensive appraisal.

However, I feel that this isn't the point of an independent appraisal. I feel that I'm paying for your expert opinion. I don't want to know if you agree with the cert; I want to know how you would assess the diamond.

I believe that it is not a waste of anyone's time if I am paying you for that time to provide the requested service. If I want an independent appraisal, and you know that means you will likely seek opinions from 2-3 of your valuers, then I assume that you are astute enough to anticipate what the cost of their time is and build those costs into the price you quote me for the appraisal. If you determine that you need to charge $150 for the appraisal to cover those costs, and I agree to pay that price, then fine.

If giving you the cert means that those 2-3 people will now not be involved and you still want to charge me the $150, I'd have a real problem with that.

I agree, this thread has definitely been a learning experience for me too. I think I would now be far more specific up front as to what my expectations are when getting an appraisal so that both the appraiser and I feel we are coming away from the experience whole.

 

[DiehardSearcher]

I personally look to someone's motives when deciding how to interpret their advice.

Bob now sells diamonds. He is no longer independant. He would rather have an appraiser validate the certificate that went along with the stone he just sold you. I do not know Bob, and so I do not know whether he is an honest representative. Based on the level of respect everyone shows him, I would assume that he is. But I would be wary about purchasing a diamond from someone who would rather have the cert matched, rather than feeling confident about his product.

I can't seem to grasp Garry's motive on this one. Maybe appraisals aren't integral to his business, and so he really does not care to be bothered. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 7/30/2003 11:55:11 AM DiehardSearcher wrote:
I personally look to someone's motives when deciding how to interpret their advice.

Bob now sells diamonds. He is no longer independant. He would rather have an appraiser validate the certificate that went along with the stone he just sold you. I do not know Bob, and so I do not know whether he is an honest representative. Based on the level of respect everyone shows him, I would assume that he is. But I would be wary about purchasing a diamond from someone who would rather have the cert matched, rather than feeling confident about his product.

I can't seem to grasp Garry's motive on this one. Maybe appraisals aren't integral to his business, and so he really does not care to be bothered. Seems perfectly reasonable to me.
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That's fine, but I frankly believe it's a mistake to think you either know or can reasonably assume what someone else's motives are based on just one fact. That leads to dangerously narrow-minded generalizations.

Just because Bob sells diamonds doesn't mean his motive is to discourage someone from verifying one of his stones, and it doesn't mean he fears his stones will be found lacking.

Yes, his goal is to make a sale, but he probably doesn't condone lying, misleading, or misadvising just to accomplish that.

 

[Hest88]

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Bob now sells diamonds. He is no longer independant. He would rather have an appraiser validate the certificate that went along with the stone he just sold you.
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Uhhhh, that's a big leap. Understandable leap, but not one I'd take in this case. I think Diamondbob is just expressing his own opinion.

 

[Garry H (Cut Nut)]

Its kinda funny

Ususally it is the trade getting upset with each other, but here we have consumers inquiring on motives.

Bob seemed not to be offering more than an opinion to me.

Die hard you got it right - appraisals are not even 1% of my business and i do not even list the service in the phone book. All our appraisers are store managers, cut researchers etc. So i an not emotionally stirred up by this issue.

But if I can offer an opinion as to why many of you guys are.......

You want an appraiser to give you an opinion as to if you should buy this diamond.

You are unhappy with the existing labs.

You want a better lab service.

I would like you to know that the main reason is the lack of an affective cut grade, and the secondary reason concerns the title of this thread.

And I agree.
We here at Pricescope will fight for your rights.

The first thing is we will do for you is get angles on to some other lab grading reports and help you buy at even better prices.

 

[aljdewey]

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On 7/30/2003 3:31:20 PM Cut Nut wrote:
But if I can offer an opinion as to why many of you guys are.......(emotionally stirred up by the issue).

You want an appraiser to give you an opinion as to if you should buy this diamond.

You are unhappy with the existing labs.

You want a better lab service.

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Garry, close but not spot-on.

I don't want an appraiser to tell me whether or not I should buy a given diamond.....rather, I want confirmation that stone is what I believe it to be, or reasonably so. I want someone who doesn't have a vested interest in selling it to me to advise me of its properties. I want to know what I'm getting for the money I spend. Considering that the properties of a diamond do not change from appraisal to appraisal, the results should be fairly consistent, give or take a grade. I typically find that results are purest when there is no pre-conceived notion of what one is "supposed" to be seeing versus what they actually see.

It isn't so much that I don't trust the labs, per se. I have a great deal of faith in the GIA/AGS certs, and I would wager that their solid reputation is a direct result of their consistent accuracy.

It's that I get a second (and sometimes third!) expert opinion on nearly EVERYTHING. Doing so means that I rarely regret my decisions (either personal or purchase-related) later on because I have done the diligence up front.

I think the "emotion" you refer to comes from the idea that any appraiser (not referring to anyone specific here) might think it's acceptable to "save research time" or be less diligent in performing an appraisal. The idea of anyone doing a half-as**d job at my expense justifiably makes me emotional.

 

[canadiangrrl]

You want an appraiser to give you an opinion as to if you should buy this diamond.

You are unhappy with the existing labs.

You want a better lab service.

I would like you to know that the main reason is the lack of an affective cut grade, and the secondary reason concerns the title of this thread.

And I agree.
We here at Pricescope will fight for your rights.

The first thing is we will do for you is get angles on to some other lab grading reports and help you buy at even better prices.

Mea Culpa.

And nice wheels, Rich.

 

[canadiangrrl]

I think frustration on the part of consumers with this issue is almost inevitable. On one hand, we are to believe that exact numbers and angles are critical - but they may vary slightly from machine to machine. So much for precision. And colour & clarity are important, too - but they can be subjective (particularly clarity.) Having said that, I think the onus needs to be on the consumer to be cognizant of the issues that can arise with any jewelery appraisal, and to do what they can in order to circumvent them. Education is key here. When I attempted to get a diamond appraisal done all those years ago, I didn't bother researching the appraiser at all - I picked him out of the phone book. And the fact that he was a cunning sleazoid is just that - but it doesn't make him an idiot. I'm the idiot for not doing my homework first.

 

[blackball]

All in and respecting all of the opinions stated, here's my EGL specs with an EGL appraisal value (you can verify the 'EGL' appraisal at their site: http://www.eglusa.com/results.htm by typing in the cert #).

For any former/present/future appraisers, what would you 'sight unseen' appraise this stone at?

Call this the 'triple-blind,' lopsided internet appraisal competition, or a subjective end to an exhaustive online thread...

Weight: 1.70 CT
Shape & Cut: Round Brilliant
Measurements: 7.69 -7.64 x4.71mm
Depth: 61.40%
Table: 58%
Crown: 12.90%
Pavilion: 44.50%
Girdle: Very thin to sl. thick faceted
Culet: none
Finish/Polish: Very good
Finish/Symmetry: Good
Clarity Grade: SI2
Color Grade: F
Fluorescence: None
Certification: EGL, 5/21/03, Los Angeles
Certificate: US 73837403D

 

[mike04456]

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On 7/30/2003 5:46:40 PM blackball wrote:
For any former/present/future appraisers, what would you 'sight unseen' appraise this stone at?

Call this the 'triple-blind,' lopsided internet appraisal competition, or a subjective end to an exhaustive online thread...

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I'd say anywhere from $6204 to $6464.

 

[blackball]

Entry #1 is in! Now, remember, no reading previous 'triple-blind' appraisal posts...

 

[Richard Sherwood]

As a former dealer I think I understand to a certain extent the consternation caused among the trade by appraisers who are willing to appraise a diamond without seeing the cert first, or would question the grading on a cert.

As a dealer, you want there to be a "last word" on the grading of a diamond, a cert that settles the issue. That way the selling of a diamond can proceed in an orderly fashion to the public, with some type of order established.

It's hard enough to make a sale in these economic times, without some appraiser blowing the sale at the last minute by disagreeing with a major lab's report. Who in the world are they to question these icons of the diamond grading world?

The whole reason dealers pay good money to get a GIA or AGS report is because they want something solid they can count on in merchandising their wares. So they go to labs with the most solid credentials and track record for a final word, hoping this will settle the grading question once and for all.

A major aspect of diamond grading reports is to give a potential purchaser a document which gives them peace of mind regarding the quality of the stone they're considering. It establishes order out of chaos, and allows business to be carried out in an orderly and predictable manner.

The last thing anyone in the selling chain wants is for this applecart to be upset. They want everybody to go along with the program, and not question the decision of the diamond grading "gods" of the industry. They would prefer that consumers show the certs to the appraisers, and the appraisers accept the grading of a major lab as the "last word" on the subject.

Compounding the problem (and the dealer's anxiety) is that there are a multitude of appraisers out there who have no business appraising in the first place, much less criticizing a major lab report. There are seriously a bunch of incompetents out there, with no governing body regulating them.

Here’s the dilemma a conscientious and competent appraiser finds himself in though. He has been hired by the client to work in his best interests. He in essence is an "extension" of the client, augmenting the client's knowledge with his own knowledge. He is honor bound to disclose all aspects of a stone in order for the client to make an educated decision.

Dealers disagree with lab reports all the time. Often, they will reject the purchase of a stone because they don't agree with the grading, and therefore are unwilling to pay the asking price for the stone. If this happens often enough, the seller will usually offer a greater discount because the stone is a "problem stone", or has a "problem cert". The diamond is then purchased by a vendor who may or may not volunteer this problem status to the consumer, and may or may not offer an appropriate discount.

That's where an appraiser comes into the picture. Since the consumer doesn't have the knowledge to recognize a problem when he sees it, he hires an independent appraiser to keep him out of trouble. An appraiser who takes this contractual relationship seriously will point out all aspects of the stone to the client, good and bad. He tries to put all these aspects into the proper perspective, being fair to all involved (including the vendor selling the stone). He then lets the client make his own decision, having all the facts at his disposal.

I feel that one of the best ways to accomplish this is to independently grade a diamond, without referring to someone else’s opinion first. That way there is no influence in the process. Before I go over the results with the client, I school them thoroughly regarding the subjective science of diamond grading. As an analogy, I compare it to the grading of an Olympic diving competition, where you have seven or so judges grading the dives of the contenders.

These judges all know what constitutes a “perfect” dive, and deduct points for any “imperfections” in the dive. Then, they all “hold their cards up” at once (without having looked over their shoulders to see how the “other guy” was grading). Usually, there will be close agreement among these judges, with maybe one guy scoring a little less and another guy scoring a little more.

This is exactly what diamond grading is like. No more, no less.

Let’s say you’re about to lay out a large amount of money on a large EGL SI2 stone. Let’s say that you’re aware that there’s a 35% price drop between the per carat price on an SI2 and an I1 in that size and color.

Which would you feel more comfortable with? A stone that an experienced gemologist you trust grades as an “SI2” without having seen a certificate beforehand, or a stone that a gemologist grades as an “SI2” after having been shown a certificate from a major gem lab grading it as an SI2?

Or, let’s say the gemologist grades the stone as an I1, without having seen the certificate. Are you going to be happy then you didn’t show him the cert, or upset? If you had a right-of-return period, would the I1 grading influence your decision? Which way would you feel you got the fairest, most unbiased and uninfluenced opinion?

This scenario applies to both dealers and consumers. Dealer's want second (or third and fourth) opinions on potential purchases too, and you can bet if it's an important decision and they want an uninfluenced opinion, they'll show the stone to a gemologist without the cert first. I know, because they do it to me all the time...

 

[DiehardSearcher]

"Dangerously narrow-mided generalizations"

aljdewey - I am not setting direction for the US' foreign policy on Arab affairs, I am putting myself in the situation of purchasing a diamond. I feel not the least bit bad about making a dangerously narrow-mided generalization when it comes to spending my money. If I don't trust someone, they don't get my business. Everyone has learned the hard way. Bob should work to gain my trust, not lose it.

 

[oldminer]

No two customers need identical assistance. We make our advice fulfill the client's special needs as well as giving them our opinion on the quality aspects of a given stone. Sometimes we know the color and clarity in advance, many times we don't. Really, since these are opinions anyway, it matters very little. We are willing to let folks test our ability to form our own opinion, but we have enough experience to make good judgments most of the time. It is up to the client in many cases and we NEVER insist on getting the grade up-front.

Less experienced gemologists may require a stone known to have a GIA or AGS grade revealed before they do an evaluation. They have more self doubt than we do, but the appearance of knowing nothing is presented to the client. It demeans the process, but in the end, one does want an accurate value on the diamond. Some appraisers need a little more information than others.

By the time your hair is gray and your skin is weathered, your brain has matured in the diamond biz to the point where it makes little difference what another grader or lab has declared. You do your own work and make your own judgments anyway. Ultimately the exactness of the final report is up to the appraiser.

This was a fun and entertaining thread!!!