Appraisals - should you tell ''em the color/clarity/carat first?
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mike04456
Brilliant_Rock
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I don't think it's a good idea, and it shouldn't be necessary. If the appraiser makes an issue of it, it makes me wonder if s/he is either lazy or unsure of their skills. There's nothing wrong with letting them see it afterward, however, as they may want to compare their results with those of the lab.
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I am sorry, I do not agree with you. Taking your diamond ring into an appraiser and hiding the certificate until the appraiser is done with the appraisal is setting yourself and the appraiser up for a problem. No part of appraising is an exact science from grading diamonds and colored stone to figuring out the value of the jewelry that is appraised. Furthermore no two appraisers will give you the same information. Some appraiser are highly trained and some have no training at all. Some even think they are more informed and better than GIA or AGS. If you have a 1.02 G VS2 and he grades it as a 1.03 F SI1, what are you going to do? Be happy he graded it a 1.03 F or be mad that he graded it an SI1? Are you going to believe the appraiser or GIA/AGS? How many diamonds a day does an appraiser grade? The GIA and AGS graders grade diamonds all day every day. Furthermore they are not just graded by one grader but three.
Give yourself and the appraiser a break and give him the certificate along with your diamond ring. If he disagrees with the certificate, that is his problem. If he agrees, everybody is happy and you will be out of his office sooner. Another little fact, an appraisal on a diamond that has a certificate should show the certificate lab, number and date on the appraisal.
Also a copy of the certificate should be attached to the appraisal.
In my past life I was a Master Gemologist Appraiser with the American Society of Appraisers. I was also a CGA with the American Gem Society. Since I am not with Whiteflash, I no longer do appraising.
Give yourself and the appraiser a break and give him the certificate along with your diamond ring. If he disagrees with the certificate, that is his problem. If he agrees, everybody is happy and you will be out of his office sooner. Another little fact, an appraisal on a diamond that has a certificate should show the certificate lab, number and date on the appraisal.
Also a copy of the certificate should be attached to the appraisal.
In my past life I was a Master Gemologist Appraiser with the American Society of Appraisers. I was also a CGA with the American Gem Society. Since I am not with Whiteflash, I no longer do appraising.
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Bob is right.
You are not playing games here.
Do you want to know if the diamond is the same one as on the report?
An appraiser needs to perform a professional service and playing smarty pants amueter games is just stoopid.
Do not do it.
You are not playing games here.
Do you want to know if the diamond is the same one as on the report?
An appraiser needs to perform a professional service and playing smarty pants amueter games is just stoopid.
Do not do it.
How can an appraiser do an "independent" appraisal if shown an appraisal in black & white prior to grading?
How can one make an educated informed decision when told what the outcome *should* be prior to grading?
If I had a G/VS2 stone and the jeweler (not privy to the cert) said it was an F SI1, I would say that the cert says differently. He then either defends his position or offers his *expertise* on why he believes his opinion. Consumers know this is not an exact science.
GIA/AGS are not infallible. Appraiser's (who ever they may be) are only human.
How can one make an educated informed decision when told what the outcome *should* be prior to grading?
If I had a G/VS2 stone and the jeweler (not privy to the cert) said it was an F SI1, I would say that the cert says differently. He then either defends his position or offers his *expertise* on why he believes his opinion. Consumers know this is not an exact science.
GIA/AGS are not infallible. Appraiser's (who ever they may be) are only human.
hoorray
Ideal_Rock
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I had the same question since the cert was sent with the stone to the appraiser before I had purchased it. At the end of the day tho, what you really need is to know that the stone is what you thought you were buying (i.e. it matches the cert and any other specs that you used to make your purchase decision.) If you are looking for more information to help you make the final decision, it is probably not what is on the cert, but some of the fancier analysis and scopes that some appraisers use.
I can't see how it hurts to have the appraiser see the cert if they still go through the steps to verify each item.
I can't see how it hurts to have the appraiser see the cert if they still go through the steps to verify each item.
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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I have to really agree with the majority here.....paying for an appraisal is paying the appraiser for HIS opinion, not to parrot someone else's.
Bob, I think you're undercrediting the consumer. I don't think a consumer's objective is to "catch" the appraiser in a mistake....quite the contrary. It would be my hope that the appraiser finds the exact same thing as the cert reflects, or CLOSE to it. I think most of us do realize that grading is subjective, and no one would be horribly alarmed if something was up/down one step. An appraisal gives peace of mind that you're reasonably getting what you've paid for without wild fluctuations.
Just my humble $.02.
Bob, I think you're undercrediting the consumer. I don't think a consumer's objective is to "catch" the appraiser in a mistake....quite the contrary. It would be my hope that the appraiser finds the exact same thing as the cert reflects, or CLOSE to it. I think most of us do realize that grading is subjective, and no one would be horribly alarmed if something was up/down one step. An appraisal gives peace of mind that you're reasonably getting what you've paid for without wild fluctuations.
Just my humble $.02.
Richard Sherwood
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As an appraiser, I feel the whole reason a client is hiring my services is because they want my unbiased, uninfluenced opinion as to the ranking of their stone.
Putting myself in the client's place, I would be extremely interested if an experienced appraiser agreed with the grade, or graded it higher or lower. All that would enter into my data being accumulated in regards to my purchase decision, or viewpoint on something I already own.
An appraiser is more likely to be influenced if shown a certificate first, plain and simple.
When I look at a stone, I ask the client not to show me the certificate, and let them read a paper I've written entitled "Diamond Grading, Is It A Science?". It explains the subjective science of diamond grading. Then I tell them I'll completely grade out their stone, and we'll go over everything point by point afterwards, comparing my analysis with the lab's.
I feel that way the client truly gets their money's worth. Instead of rubber stamping a certificate and collecting my fee, they get a true second opinion.
In the end, I will usually recommend that we use the grading of GIA, AGS or HRD on the appraisal, unless I am in radical disagreement with them and can't bring myself to sign my name to it. In that case I will grade it out like I see it, and then make a notation in comments that "Diamond additionally documented in GIA Report #777777 as a G/VS1. Value listed determined from SGL's (Sarasota Gem Lab's) grading".
If the stone is certed by EGL, IGI, or anyone else, I will go with my grading as opposed to theirs, making the same notation in the comments.
These people aren't gods. They are giving out their opinion, just like any other lab. The more experienced the grader(s), the more veracity there is to their opinion. The GIA Gem Trade Laboratory follows a protocol where two junior graders grade a stone first. If they agree, that's the grade the stone receives. If they disagree, the stone is bumped up to a senior grader who assigns the final grade.
Sometimes those junior graders are fresh out of school, with the additional training given them by GTL (six months or less?). Between the two of them, their total time grading stones might be a fraction of what I have spent in my professional career. Do I consider my opinion to be on as strong a legs as theirs? Hell yeah, if not more... On as strong a legs as a senior grader? Hell yeah, in most cases.
Putting myself in the client's place, I would be extremely interested if an experienced appraiser agreed with the grade, or graded it higher or lower. All that would enter into my data being accumulated in regards to my purchase decision, or viewpoint on something I already own.
An appraiser is more likely to be influenced if shown a certificate first, plain and simple.
When I look at a stone, I ask the client not to show me the certificate, and let them read a paper I've written entitled "Diamond Grading, Is It A Science?". It explains the subjective science of diamond grading. Then I tell them I'll completely grade out their stone, and we'll go over everything point by point afterwards, comparing my analysis with the lab's.
I feel that way the client truly gets their money's worth. Instead of rubber stamping a certificate and collecting my fee, they get a true second opinion.
In the end, I will usually recommend that we use the grading of GIA, AGS or HRD on the appraisal, unless I am in radical disagreement with them and can't bring myself to sign my name to it. In that case I will grade it out like I see it, and then make a notation in comments that "Diamond additionally documented in GIA Report #777777 as a G/VS1. Value listed determined from SGL's (Sarasota Gem Lab's) grading".
If the stone is certed by EGL, IGI, or anyone else, I will go with my grading as opposed to theirs, making the same notation in the comments.
These people aren't gods. They are giving out their opinion, just like any other lab. The more experienced the grader(s), the more veracity there is to their opinion. The GIA Gem Trade Laboratory follows a protocol where two junior graders grade a stone first. If they agree, that's the grade the stone receives. If they disagree, the stone is bumped up to a senior grader who assigns the final grade.
Sometimes those junior graders are fresh out of school, with the additional training given them by GTL (six months or less?). Between the two of them, their total time grading stones might be a fraction of what I have spent in my professional career. Do I consider my opinion to be on as strong a legs as theirs? Hell yeah, if not more... On as strong a legs as a senior grader? Hell yeah, in most cases.
elmo
Brilliant_Rock
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I have a question for Bob.
If I wanted a second, independent opinion on an important stone, I might choose to send it to the other major lab, i.e. if it already had a GIA report, maybe I'd send it to the AGS.
Why in the world would the AGS want to see the GIA report before rendering an opinion?
If I wanted a second, independent opinion on an important stone, I might choose to send it to the other major lab, i.e. if it already had a GIA report, maybe I'd send it to the AGS.
Why in the world would the AGS want to see the GIA report before rendering an opinion?
Richard Sherwood
Ideal_Rock
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You cut right to the heart of it, Elmo.
canadiangrrl
Brilliant_Rock
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I see both sides of the argument. When I was 20, I had a diamond appraised that had been left to me by my grandmother. It was uncertified, but it had been previously appraised when it had been purchased for her. I didn't have the previous appraisal with me (and in all honesty, I wouldn't have thought to show it to the appraiser.) This unscrupulous appraiser lied to me, plain and simple. I should also mention that I was considering selling the diamond as I was then a starving undergrad many miles from home in dire need of wisdom teeth extraction...and this appraiser, lo and behold, was a reseller of diamonds. The diamond was a well cut 1.02 carat E VS1 - the appraiser offered me $500 CDN for it before the "appraisal" had even begun. Me and Nana's stone hightailed it outta there but quick.
I didn't know nuthin' about diamonds, but I knew that something stunk real bad.
Moral of the story - find an independent accredited appraiser who knows what he's/she's doing, and trust them - give them the cert, don't give them the cert - you are, after all, the customer, so it's up to you - but remember that grading is subjective in part.
Moral of the story - find an independent accredited appraiser who knows what he's/she's doing, and trust them - give them the cert, don't give them the cert - you are, after all, the customer, so it's up to you - but remember that grading is subjective in part.
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If anyone has stories like that of appraisers on our list please send them to myself or Leonid and we will look into it.
We have taken people off that list.
Equally we are always looking for more competent appraisers to add. Many unfortunately have little idea about cut quality and that you will find is one of the main benefits those on that list will provide.
Please trust me - there is no value in playing guessing games. If you try that with me with my appraisal services I will simply tell you where to go. if you wish to have that sort of service then do not bother using a professional.
We have taken people off that list.
Equally we are always looking for more competent appraisers to add. Many unfortunately have little idea about cut quality and that you will find is one of the main benefits those on that list will provide.
Please trust me - there is no value in playing guessing games. If you try that with me with my appraisal services I will simply tell you where to go. if you wish to have that sort of service then do not bother using a professional.
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On 7/29/2003 3:198 AM Cut Nut wrote:
Please trust me - there is no value in playing guessing games. If you try that with me with my appraisal services I will simply tell you where to go. if you wish to have that sort of service then do not bother using a professional.
----------------
Guessing games? Hey Cut Nut, remind me never to even think of getting a stone appraised by you. You are like the guy that plays trivia pursuit and gets every question wrong, and when you are the one asking the question with the answer in front of you, you always mutter "Oh this is an easy one". Don't you guys hate those people? No thanks, I'll take my business to Marty Haske, who "appreciates" the guessing game because he is confident in his skills.
elmo
Brilliant_Rock
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This is related to Garry's comment.
I think there is a subtle but important difference between an appraisal and a second, independent opinion about the stone itself.
For an appraisal per se, yes I think the lab report is an important part of the process. In that context I see what Garry is talking about, guessing games and all.
However, as I'd proposed earlier, for an independent opinion on a stone, why would the process be any different than sending the stone to one of the major labs? The cost is about the same (average maybe $100-200), and as Rich indicated the appraiser's expertise may be even greater than at the labs. (This reminds me that Rich had a good post related to this in response to someone asking about SI-2s, that discussed the subtle bias that seeing the lab report could introduce.)
This is a great topic. I love seeing threads where the experts are polarized in their opinions; it does not happen all that often
. As a consumer, I learn so much more about how things work this way.
I think there is a subtle but important difference between an appraisal and a second, independent opinion about the stone itself.
For an appraisal per se, yes I think the lab report is an important part of the process. In that context I see what Garry is talking about, guessing games and all.
However, as I'd proposed earlier, for an independent opinion on a stone, why would the process be any different than sending the stone to one of the major labs? The cost is about the same (average maybe $100-200), and as Rich indicated the appraiser's expertise may be even greater than at the labs. (This reminds me that Rich had a good post related to this in response to someone asking about SI-2s, that discussed the subtle bias that seeing the lab report could introduce.)
This is a great topic. I love seeing threads where the experts are polarized in their opinions; it does not happen all that often
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When I took my stone in to get appraised, I actually laughed at the secretary when she asked me if I could give her any paperwork I already had on the stone. I COMPLETELY disagree with Bob about this. I was paying for an independent appraisal, not a copy. In fact, if I had given my copy to them I would have just been suspicious that they had in fact copied it! If my cert was different than the appraisal, I would have asked for an explanation.
I wanted to make sure that the diamond I had in my posession matched the cert that was given with it. The grader actually graded my stone an F colour, when it was graded by AGS as a G, the SI-1 was the same & he plotted the inclusions exactly where AGS had (in the same locations). And he did all this **without** my AGS cert. He did what I paid him to do.
Judy
I wanted to make sure that the diamond I had in my posession matched the cert that was given with it. The grader actually graded my stone an F colour, when it was graded by AGS as a G, the SI-1 was the same & he plotted the inclusions exactly where AGS had (in the same locations). And he did all this **without** my AGS cert. He did what I paid him to do.
Judy
Richard Sherwood
Ideal_Rock
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Bob, Garry, I'm curious.
Have you rejected purchasing any GIA or AGS stones over the years because you didn't agree with the grading?
Have you rejected purchasing any GIA or AGS stones over the years because you didn't agree with the grading?
In my work, people come to me and ask me for some advice. No matter what was done before,
I start everything over again and tell the person what I do believe would be the best
thing to do at this point.
So for diamond grading it`s the same thing. If you want to be sure the stones matches
the cert, show it to your appraiser.. However if you`re searching for an independant
appraisal (be prepare to pay more), you don't need to show it.. that`s it. BUT don't
show it after your appraiser did his work... cause he might feel insulted !
This is what Cut was referring as "playing games" and I understand him.
Trichrome.
I start everything over again and tell the person what I do believe would be the best
thing to do at this point.
So for diamond grading it`s the same thing. If you want to be sure the stones matches
the cert, show it to your appraiser.. However if you`re searching for an independant
appraisal (be prepare to pay more), you don't need to show it.. that`s it. BUT don't
show it after your appraiser did his work... cause he might feel insulted !
This is what Cut was referring as "playing games" and I understand him.
Trichrome.
MichaelF
Rough_Rock
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Hmmm... Let me get this right...
1. I research and find an Independent Appraiser...
2. I get references and check him / her out...
3. I hire him / her and pay them money to work for me...
4. I should refuse them information because:
a. After checking them out I think they are
dishonest, but not so much so that I won't
lay down my money...
b. They may be lazy so I want them to perform
even though I'm paying him / her by the hour...
c. They may be in cahoots with the merchant...
d. Because they really aren't independent and will
cheat me becuase my stone was not from the lab
where they were certified / educated...
e. Because if they palm my diamond I'll have proof...
Sounds like a trusting relationship to me... Did I say I checked them out before all this got started?
Michael
1. I research and find an Independent Appraiser...
2. I get references and check him / her out...
3. I hire him / her and pay them money to work for me...
4. I should refuse them information because:
a. After checking them out I think they are
dishonest, but not so much so that I won't
lay down my money...
b. They may be lazy so I want them to perform
even though I'm paying him / her by the hour...
c. They may be in cahoots with the merchant...
d. Because they really aren't independent and will
cheat me becuase my stone was not from the lab
where they were certified / educated...
e. Because if they palm my diamond I'll have proof...
Sounds like a trusting relationship to me... Did I say I checked them out before all this got started?
Michael
aljdewey
Ideal_Rock
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I'm sorry, Garry, but I completely cannot understand your position on this.----------------
On 7/29/2003 3:198 AM Cut Nut wrote:
Please trust me - there is no value in playing guessing games. If you try that with me with my appraisal services I will simply tell you where to go. if you wish to have that sort of service then do not bother using a professional.
----------------
If you are being hired to appraise a diamond, you are being hired to give your professional assessment of the diamond's characteristics.
How exactly is that playing games? I just don't see your line of reasoning on this one.
Hest88
Ideal_Rock
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No, I don't think of it as refusing information, I think of it as asking for an independent, uninfluenced second opinion.
Plus, in this case, didn't OP's appraiser say she wants the info to "save her a lot of research time"? Doesn't that imply that she's basically going to do a cursory check of the stone and, unless there's an egregious difference, parrot what the cert says? How is that independent?
What an incredible thread my question has began...
Now what to do: I haven't gone to this appraiser yet, but was asked for the cut, color, carat, what I paid, the EGL appraisal (which if I type the certification # on the EGL-USA website, I get)...
Hmm?
Now what to do: I haven't gone to this appraiser yet, but was asked for the cut, color, carat, what I paid, the EGL appraisal (which if I type the certification # on the EGL-USA website, I get)...
Hmm?
Richard Sherwood
Ideal_Rock
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If you give the appraiser all that information, you'll always have a question in your mind as to whether he or she was influenced by it.
If you tell them that you would like their opinion first, and then would like to compare it with the cert, stressing that you understand the subjective science of diamond grading, I don't see how they could be insulted or irritated.
Unless they're not confident of their grading abilities. If that's the case, you're talking to the wrong appraiser.
If you tell them that you would like their opinion first, and then would like to compare it with the cert, stressing that you understand the subjective science of diamond grading, I don't see how they could be insulted or irritated.
Unless they're not confident of their grading abilities. If that's the case, you're talking to the wrong appraiser.
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Interesting opinions.
I would not worry a client if GIA called a stone G VS2 and I thought it was H VS2, thereby starting a potential WWIII.
But if I thought it was H SI1 I would declare and consult.
Let me be clear about this though. My business does 2 or 3 appraisals a year of the type we are discussing because I live a long way from the Interent action. Do I need it? No.
Will people in Australia pay the fees that are charged in USA? No way.
if you want to play guess the number of beans in the jar and you are prepared to pay for wasting a pro's time, then OK
BTW we would all love to see a photo of your legs Rich
I would not worry a client if GIA called a stone G VS2 and I thought it was H VS2, thereby starting a potential WWIII.
But if I thought it was H SI1 I would declare and consult.
Let me be clear about this though. My business does 2 or 3 appraisals a year of the type we are discussing because I live a long way from the Interent action. Do I need it? No.
Will people in Australia pay the fees that are charged in USA? No way.
if you want to play guess the number of beans in the jar and you are prepared to pay for wasting a pro's time, then OK
BTW we would all love to see a photo of your legs Rich
mike04456
Brilliant_Rock
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Wow, what a thread.
Having slept on this, I'm still conflicted. I appreciate what Bob and Garry are saying, but I keep finding myself agreeing with Rich. There are some nuances here.
If you were diagnosed with cancer and went for a second opinion, would you withhold the first diagnosis from the second doctor because you wanted an unbiased opinion? If someone came to me with a legal question, I would want all the facts including any work done by previous attorneys, and I would get annoyed if the client were holding things back.
On the other hand, this isn't a life or death situation, and I still think I would trust the appraisal more by seeing what the appraiser thought before seeing the report. No question that I would want to go over it with him or her after that, though. It's not a question of not trusting them, just wanting to be sure I got an unbiased view of the stone.
On the third hand
, of course, I would never be in this situation anyway because I would simply do the "checking up" on my own and not bother hiring another appraiser.
Having slept on this, I'm still conflicted. I appreciate what Bob and Garry are saying, but I keep finding myself agreeing with Rich. There are some nuances here.
If you were diagnosed with cancer and went for a second opinion, would you withhold the first diagnosis from the second doctor because you wanted an unbiased opinion? If someone came to me with a legal question, I would want all the facts including any work done by previous attorneys, and I would get annoyed if the client were holding things back.
On the other hand, this isn't a life or death situation, and I still think I would trust the appraisal more by seeing what the appraiser thought before seeing the report. No question that I would want to go over it with him or her after that, though. It's not a question of not trusting them, just wanting to be sure I got an unbiased view of the stone.
On the third hand
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