Anyone Else Watching?

[Calliecake]

What the heck did I miss between last night and this afternoon? It obviously concerns Red. I hope you are okay Red.

 

[Dee*Jay]

What the heck did I miss between last night and this afternoon? It obviously concerns Red. I hope you are okay Red.

There was a very inappropriate post that contained a personal attack on Red. It has since been removed. I'm not going to say more than that because I don't want Red to have to dwell on it any further. She didn't deserve it and I hope she is still in this thread seeing the support she is receiving.

If you're here, Hi Red!

 

[Matata]

What the heck did I miss between last night and this afternoon? It obviously concerns Red. I hope you are okay Red.

A poster maliciously and cruelly insulted Red. It would be insensitive to her to be more specific.

 

[Calliecake]

What the heck did I miss between last night and this afternoon? It obviously concerns Red. I hope you are okay Red.

There was a very inappropriate post that contained a personal attack on Red. It has since been removed. I'm not going to say more than that because I don't want Red to have to dwell on it any further. She didn't deserve it and I hope she is still in this thread seeing the support she is receiving.

If you're here, Hi Red!

Thank you for explaining DeeJay and Matata. I hope Red is still here and doing well.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Part of being a critical thinker is to make JUDGMENTS about the actions of individuals, groups of people, etc. Saying "I think that Trump's platform and behavior was openly anti-equality, anti-women's rights, anti-LGBTQ rights, anti-healthcare, misogynistic, racist and offensive. Therefore it stands to reason that the people who voted for him share all or at least some of these same beliefs, which are antithetical to my own beliefs and may result in the loss of rights I currently enjoy."

This is not the same as racism, or the issue of voting rights - correlating the two is absurd. It defies logic to say something like "just because people voted for Trump doesn't mean they believe the same things he believes!" Ummmmm yes it does, THEY VOTED FOR HIM. That's what voting means. It means that you are casting yourself in with the lot of a particular candidate who shares your beliefs and will represent your beliefs in government. The argument Trump supporters attempt to make is "people voted for Trump not because they shared any of his beliefs or behaviors, but because they are sick of the status quo and want change!" Sorry, I call BS on that one lol.

For those who support Trump, he is your mouthpiece now. That's what voting for him and supporting him means. As he bashes the media, spends his first day in office obsessing about the SIZE of his crowd versus Obama's crowd, Tweets with zero regard to consequences, and barely acknowledges the 3 million citizens who took to the streets of this country yesterday, he is representing YOU. When he says that celebrities can assault women without consequence, judges women solely on their appearance, mocks the disabled, calls Hispanics criminals and rapists, suggests a Muslim registry, fails to denounce the alt-right/KKK, and the myriad other despicable things he's done, and you continue supporting and defending him, then you are painting a very clear picture of yourself and your beliefs.

I will not be complacent - I will stand at the ready to do everything in my power to protect myself against policies that will eradicate my rights. We proved yesterday that we are present, our numbers are YUGE (and can be much much bigger as there were many who didn't participate yesterday but who are like minded and able to turn out in future), and we can mobilize quickly, peacefully, and effectively across the WORLD. Trump, his cronies, and his supporters were put on notice yesterday!

Much of this is your opinion, to which your entitled; and some of it is factually false (e.g., he did denounce the KKK).

I don't view myself as complacent and reject the insinuation that - because we don't share the same views or priorities - I somehow am. You chose to vote (I assume) with a platform of equality as your priority. And I chose to vote with a broader platform of the country as mine (as I just posted in response to Missy, if you care to read it). Neither you or I is wrong or right; just different. And my choosing my priorities for how I vote does NOT equate to me wanting to limit anyone's rights in the least, regardless of what you may think or assume. In fact, my priorities specifically support not only the continuation of the rights we enjoy today, but ability to continue ensuring they remain in place and are able to further be made equal. If our country falls or fails, and we are subjected to foreign rule, do you really think there is any other country (that is capable of such overthrow) that would leave our constitution, laws, protections and way of life intact?

Exactly, and the wage gap is a well known fact. Not to mention that it's significantly worse for women of color. Women and men aren't treated equally (unfortunately), and should have equal rights. Also, this is worse for mothers, and gets worse with age.

At no point did I say there is NO wage gap. What I said was that there are some jobs that - by virtue of the requirements/qualifications of that job and the inherent differences in men & women - it is impossible to FAIRLY pay them the same because - by virtue of those differences, they are not necessarily capable of performing the same.

In cases where all things ARE equal - qualifications, performance, responsibility, etc., they should be equally compensated.

JoCoJenn, what legal protections do women enjoy which create inequality for men? Again, I'm standing by, awaiting enlightenment. I am simple, though, and need specific examples of laws currently in place or rights women are asking for, which will create inequality for men.

Please and thank you.

I was not speaking specifically or solely in terms of legal protections; you are.

But as an example (which I already suspect you will disagree, but you asked), I feel it there is legal inequality towards men when it comes to a woman's right to choose. I won't get into a debate about the 'right' itself, and for the sake of the argument & example, assume both parties are legal, consenting adults. I believe that removing the man from the decision is morally, legally and financially unequal. You remove due consideration of his beliefs (which have constitutional merit) as well as the option and opportunity for him to be responsible and raise a child he had a direct role in creating, while - alternatively - also legally requiring him to be financially responsible for the child he gets no say in you keeping. In this case, whether you agree or disagree with abortion, I view this as women having more legal protection than men. And I know, it's her body ... but it's my belief and view that if you willingly share your body in an act that both people know full well the 'potential consequence', then both parties should legally have equal say in the decision about that consequence. As it is, two people are legally responsible without equal consideration. And FTR, yes, I view incidents of rape, incest, etc. entirely differently than my position above by virtue of the woman's age, maturity, and ability to make the choice to have sex in the first place.

JoCoJenn, I will repeat that equal doesn't mean biologically the SAME. There is no argument that women are biologically different from men. I mean, who has ever suggested that women and men are biologically the same?!

Equality means equal in the eyes of the law. Women's equality means that we are equally protected under the law, that we have equality in the workplace, equal opportunity for all jobs where we are equally qualified, equal pay, and equal representation in government and across all aspects of society. The word "Equal" is shorthand for "EQUAL RIGHTS" and always has been - don't be coy, you know this.

We don't need to change the word, you just need to understand the context less literally. We are fighting for EQUAL RIGHTS and you have stated that you don't believe men and women are, or ever will be, equal. Yet I'm still waiting for specific examples of LEGAL EQUALITY that you don't believe women should have equivalent to men. Please enlighten me. I think you're playing games and know full well what the distinction is. But you will continue pretending that the fight for EQUAL RIGHTS has something to do with biological sameness, but you know better. I hope you prove me wrong.

And I do agree with you that equality extends to men too, if there are areas where they are not legally equal to women. I can't think of any examples, but perhaps there are some.

Correction - equality CAN mean "in the eyes of the law" and "women's equality"; it also has mathematical and other meaning; however, that wasn't the narrow scope I used in my earlier posts; rather, it's the narrow scope you applied to it when you skimmed it. Perhaps reading it thoroughly for comprehension vs condescension would be more helpful and productive. This thread didn't start with any form of "equality" as the topic or focus, and it's not your place to determine or define the context of my post made before you entered the conversation. I am not being coy; in fact, I specified multiple scenarios of inequality (legal, professional, social). You are merely doing here what we discussed in other threads - taking a very direct and clear statement (post) and twisting & inferring not only that which was NOT stated, but also (and unecessarily sarcastically, I might add) attempting to force your views and opinions to "legally" define and constrict a discussion that is entirely comprised of opinion and individual belief.

If you are unable to understand - as I previously explained - why and how I believe the bioligical differences between men and women directly create some unavoidable opportunities for inequality, but that both still merit respect and appreciation for their uniqueness, then I'm not sure what else I can tell you.

 

[ericad]

Your replies are lengthy, JoCoJenn, in response to a simple question. It's like a complicated dance when I simply ask for you to show me a specific step.

So we have abortion rights/parental rights that you feel favor women over men, therefore there is inequality. That men/courts should be able to compel a woman to carry a pregnancy to term against her will in protection of the father's rights. I concede that the rights women currently possess over their bodies do currently favor women. Would you like to see those rights restricted so that men exercise rights over women's bodies?

What other examples might you enlighten me with? Specific concrete examples, not vague ones like "oh there may be some jobs where women are different from men and can't perform at the same level." Please be specific, this is really helpful for me to understand your perspective!

 

[OreoRosies86]

What the heck did I miss between last night and this afternoon? It obviously concerns Red. I hope you are okay Red.

There was a very inappropriate post that contained a personal attack on Red. It has since been removed. I'm not going to say more than that because I don't want Red to have to dwell on it any further. She didn't deserve it and I hope she is still in this thread seeing the support she is receiving.

If you're here, Hi Red!

Thank you for explaining DeeJay and Matata. I hope Red is still here and doing well.

She seems like a very opinionated person who has a lot of conviction in her beliefs and her own self assurance. I'd be surprised if one comment would have the power to rock her that much that she wouldn't return.

 

[Dee*Jay]

What's done is done. Thanks for trying to help out. If anyone else has the same views as that person with the white dog avatar then please speak up. I need to know who to put on ignore if I even remain here at all. This kind of completely disgusting and intolerant BS is beyond reprehensible. I never post about a specific person here (except Eliot today - who has never been this nasty) because I don't think that is what a decent person does.

Elliot, this is what I was thinking of when I wrote my post.

 

[OreoRosies86]

What's done is done. Thanks for trying to help out. If anyone else has the same views as that person with the white dog avatar then please speak up. I need to know who to put on ignore if I even remain here at all. This kind of completely disgusting and intolerant BS is beyond reprehensible. I never post about a specific person here (except Eliot today - who has never been this nasty) because I don't think that is what a decent person does.

Elliot, this is what I was thinking of when I wrote my post.

Oh I know, but hopefully that was just said in anger. As much as Red and I don't "get along" on here, she seems perfectly capable of brushing things off and I would hope that she wouldn't give one harsh comment the power to upset her that much.

 

[ruby59]

What's done is done. Thanks for trying to help out. If anyone else has the same views as that person with the white dog avatar then please speak up. I need to know who to put on ignore if I even remain here at all. This kind of completely disgusting and intolerant BS is beyond reprehensible. I never post about a specific person here (except Eliot today - who has never been this nasty) because I don't think that is what a decent person does.

Elliot, this is what I was thinking of when I wrote my post.

Red, if you are at least here reading, I hope you are OK.

And please come back and post as soon as you can. You are missed.

 

[momhappy]

What's done is done. Thanks for trying to help out. If anyone else has the same views as that person with the white dog avatar then please speak up. I need to know who to put on ignore if I even remain here at all. This kind of completely disgusting and intolerant BS is beyond reprehensible. I never post about a specific person here (except Eliot today - who has never been this nasty) because I don't think that is what a decent person does.

Elliot, this is what I was thinking of when I wrote my post.

Oh I know, but hopefully that was just said in anger. As much as Red and I don't "get along" on here, she seems perfectly capable of brushing things off and I would hope that she wouldn't give one harsh comment the power to upset her that much.

Disagreements are one thing, but personal attacks are another and not easily brushed off.
Many of us hope to see Red return soon if she feels like doing so - it wouldn't surprise me, however, if she chose not to.

 

[chrono]

Posting again, since it got lost on a previous page:

I usually do not post on weekends but had to log in to support Redwood. Redwood and I don't always agree with each other's views but I can tell that she is a good person with good intentions.

 

[momhappy]

I know you're here, red

 

[Bonfire]

 

[the_mother_thing]

Your replies are lengthy, JoCoJenn, in response to a simple question. It's like a complicated dance when I simply ask for you to show me a specific step.

So we have abortion rights/parental rights that you feel favor women over men, therefore there is inequality. That men/courts should be able to compel a woman to carry a pregnancy to term against her will in protection of the father's rights. I concede that the rights women currently possess over their bodies do currently favor women. Would you like to see those rights restricted so that men exercise rights over women's bodies?

What other examples might you enlighten me with? Specific concrete examples, not vague ones like "oh there may be some jobs where women are different from men and can't perform at the same level." Please be specific, this is really helpful for me to understand your perspective!

I am indeed sometimes guilty of long posts. This is not done in an attempt to complicate matters; rather, it is because in sensitive topics such as this, I make a sincere effort to articulate exactly what I mean/think/believe to prevent it from being misinterpreted or twisted, which - ironically - you seem quite intent on doing for some reason by continually questioning what was already clearly stated & suggesting false intent in my comments that I very clearly & carefully did not state.

I previously conceded that we have different views & beliefs, neither of which makes the other right or wrong. Yet for some reason, you seem insistent on picking apart my posts and applying what you deem an acceptable framework for my responses.

Doing this demonstrates a lack of comprehension and/or respect/courtesy on your part. Please enlighten me - specifically - which it is, and - specifically - why.

 

[the_mother_thing]

The following is being shared on Redwood''s behalf to those who have demonstrated care/concern for her, as she is unable to post:

Hi everyone.  Thank you all for your concern as it is much appreciated.  Last night reading that post was hard and I was a bit shaken and angry that someone could say such vile things about a person they don't even know.  Someone who is well respected by all and who posts quite often in threads about psychological issues that people are experiencing and exudes empathy for them.  I pity her and she has shown me who she truly is.  I will not be deterred or change my opinions for anyone and I can brush this off without a further thought.  Eliot this will not change how I interact with you because we have our differences and it can get tense at times but I still respect you and we both have the ability to draw the line before heading down a rocky road.  Everyone else, you are all my heroes for keeping it civil and still caring for one another despite very deep chasms of different views.  That is what makes the world exciting and makes us learn about each other.

 

[t-c]

At no point did I say there is NO wage gap. What I said was that there are some jobs that - by virtue of the requirements/qualifications of that job and the inherent differences in men & women - it is impossible to FAIRLY pay them the same because - by virtue of those differences, they are not necessarily capable of performing the same.

In cases where all things ARE equal - qualifications, performance, responsibility, etc., they should be equally compensated.

Sorry to jump in the conversation but: What jobs are these and do they comprise such a huge percentage of all jobs in the that it would result in a 20% pay gap? Outside jobs that require really heavy lifting (I've seen women doing crossfit who can lift massive amounts of weight so this may not even hold true), I can't think of any other jobs that women would inherently not be able to perform as well as men.

 

[momhappy]

Firefighter?

 

[AGBF]

The following is being shared on Redwood''s behalf to those who have demonstrated care/concern for her, as she is unable to post:

Hi everyone.  Thank you all for your concern as it is much appreciated.  Last night reading that post was hard and I was a bit shaken and angry that someone could say such vile things about a person they don't even know.  Someone who is well respected by all and who posts quite often in threads about psychological issues that people are experiencing and exudes empathy for them.  I pity her and she has shown me who she truly is.  I will not be deterred or change my opinions for anyone and I can brush this off without a further thought.  Eliot this will not change how I interact with you because we have our differences and it can get tense at times but I still respect you and we both have the ability to draw the line before heading down a rocky road.  Everyone else, you are all my heroes for keeping it civil and still caring for one another despite very deep chasms of different views.  That is what makes the world exciting and makes us learn about each other.

Jenn-thank you for posting this on red's behalf. I hope that you and I can finally make up our differences. I have apologized to you before, but you may have had me on ignore. My friendship with red and yours with her are both deep. I would appreciate it if you would allow that to give us another chance to be civil to each other. I have had the opportunity to practice friendship, following red's example of being able to be courteous to people with whom she disagrees, with a conservative. I love her very much. Now I might do better with you.

red-Hang in there! I need you back here!

Hugs,
Deb/AGBF

 

[monarch64]

Firefighter?

http://www.unitedwomenfirefighters.org/

Also: http://www.businessinsider.com/here-are-apples-new-emoji-for-firefighters-astronauts-and-artists-2016-8

I keep saying this...times, they are a changin'.

 

[nala]

For those of you concerned about Red, she was quick to defend herself and responded with profanity and name calling--personal attacks. Just saying....

 

[momhappy]

Yes, AFTER she was verbally attacked. Just sayin'

 

[nala]

Firefighter?

http://www.unitedwomenfirefighters.org/

Also: http://www.businessinsider.com/here-are-apples-new-emoji-for-firefighters-astronauts-and-artists-2016-8

I keep saying this...times, they are a changin'.

Monarch, she must think your links are just "alternative facts"

 

[momhappy]

Firefighter?

http://www.unitedwomenfirefighters.org/

Also: http://www.businessinsider.com/here-are-apples-new-emoji-for-firefighters-astronauts-and-artists-2016-8

I keep saying this...times, they are a changin'.

Monarch, she must think your links are just "alternative facts"

Are you referring to me?
I was asking a question - thus the question mark after the word "firefighter"
I hadn't even responded yet

 

[OreoRosies86]

Firefighter?

http://www.unitedwomenfirefighters.org/

Also: http://www.businessinsider.com/here-are-apples-new-emoji-for-firefighters-astronauts-and-artists-2016-8

I keep saying this...times, they are a changin'.

Hold on there, little lady. The menfolk will handle the emojis round these parts

 

[OreoRosies86]

Momhappy, you edited your post. It originally said women firefighters do not perform as well as men.

 

[nala]

Yes, AFTER she was verbally attacked. Just sayin'

Thanks for confirming!!!

 

[AGBF]

For those of you concerned about Red, she was quick to defend herself and responded with profanity and name calling--personal attacks. Just saying....

I do not want to relive last night, nala. I do not blame red for her response. I was here and know what she read. What I do feel was a mitigating circumstance was that the poster who put up the offensive words immediately took them down. Clearly that poster felt that s/he had posted in haste and rethought what s/he had written. Anyone can say something in anger and regret it.

Deb

 

[momhappy]

Momhappy, you edited your post. It originally said women firefighters do not perform as well as men.

.....and that's exactly why I edited it....because I felt it was more appropriate to pose it as a question
I understand that times have changed, but it is still a male-dominated field for a number of reasons.

 

[OreoRosies86]

Momhappy, you edited your post. It originally said women firefighters do not perform as well as men.

.....and that's exactly why I edited it....because I felt it was more appropriate to pose it as a question
I understand that times have changed, but it is still a male-dominated field for a number of reasons.

Yes, but then don't act confused as to why people responded the way they did!