Anyone Else Watching?

[momhappy]

I'm sorry, red

 

[OreoRosies86]

Apparently I missed some things (I'm lost in a Comedy Bang Bang podcast), but yeah that sucks. Not in the spirit of what Pricescope is about, and I'm definitely not cool with it.

 

[siv1]

What's done is done. Thanks for trying to help out. If anyone else has the same views as that person with the white dog avatar then please speak up. I need to know who to put on ignore if I even remain here at all. This kind of completely disgusting and intolerant BS is beyond reprehensible. I never post about a specific person here (except Eliot today - who has never been this nasty) because I don't think that is what a decent person does.

Red, I am so sorry. I never expected this thread to get out of hand the way it did. She showed her true colors. Thank God not everyone is like her.

 

[redwood66]

What's done is done. Thanks for trying to help out. If anyone else has the same views as that person with the white dog avatar then please speak up. I need to know who to put on ignore if I even remain here at all. This kind of completely disgusting and intolerant BS is beyond reprehensible. I never post about a specific person here (except Eliot today - who has never been this nasty) because I don't think that is what a decent person does.

Red, I am so sorry. I never expected this thread to get out of hand the way it did. She showed her true colors. Thank God not everyone is like her.

Don't worry about it, it is not your fault at all. I did not think it was out of hand. People disagree but this is something else entirely.

 

[Queenie60]

Wow! I just can't believe the name calling and terrible things many of you are saying. This is why I stay away from these political threads and when I do say anything - it's always generic. I am sorry Redwood that you had to endure such hatred aimed at you. You're a very smart and very nice person and I enjoy reading your posts. I support much of what you say however I don't have the guts to always say so. It becomes too heated at times. Sorry Red. Take care and keep your chin up.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Surely you can agree that I am not the only woman to feel this way. Why do you think so many women came out to March today? The man is a misogynist. I really don't expect you to understand my point of view. We view many things quite differently. That's just a fact and I'm really not trying to get a rise out of you by saying that.

A woman's right to choose regarding her body would be my number one reason.

He said on tape he can grab women by the pussy. That is sexual assault.

The terrible remarks he makes about women's appearance. Examples, Megan Kelley, Hillary Clinton, The woman who accused him of sexual assault. He said she wasn't good looking enough for him to assault. Men who respect women do not act like this.

Women are nothing but objects to him from my point of view.

I'm not 'rising'; I asked you the question, knowing full well we have different views. And my question wasn't directed at other women or who attended the march.

The president does not solely have the power to take away your right to choose; the Supreme Court applies the law to these cases. And the law allows you to choose. His having a "pro-life" view does not mean "take you back to the 50s"; it means you have differing beliefs, something our constitution thankfully affords all citizens.

Has Chump made "inappropriate" comments? Yep; as has probably half (at least) the country at some point or another. Is making an off-handed or dirty comment against the law (not talking about threats)? No. I believe he - as a private citizen - also enjoyed rights to free speech, just like those who marched today, just like those who chanted for dead cops, just like couples who partake in dirty talk in private. And he did not say HE did that; as I heard it, he was speaking (albeit poorly) metaphorically about life as a celebrity, and there are women who willingly allow men to do those things for their own reasons. If making dirty comments was against the law, we would have few musicians, comedians and actors who unapologetically make far more disrespectful statements.

And I know ... none of them were President. Neither was he when he did it, nor did he plan to be at that time, it seems.

Has he been charged with and/or found guilty of committing a crime (sexual assault)? No. In fact, I have not heard one word about any of his "pre-election accusers" since then.

Calling HRC a "nasty woman", against the law? No. She hurled an accusation at him, and he responded. He would have fared better by actually calling her out on her own scandalous financials. Financials, mind you, that her foundation is still under investigation for by the FBI.

His comment about Megan Kelly following the debate - crude, indeed. Against the law? No, again, that pesky "free speech" affords him the freedom to make himself appear as a grotesque pig of a man.

So Chump is guilty of being crude, mouthy and arrogant. And this country STILL elected him over HRC, so they clearly felt she really wasn't up to or qualified for the job, and they could/would accept his MANY faults (over her) because they feel he is capable of fixing that which they see as broken. And save the whole 'popular vote vs electoral college debate; we have a process for elections, and he won per the rules - period.

iLander made terrible remarks about Melania's attire & intellect - in this thread - and you had no comment. So you (and your fellow feminists) feel it's okay for women to tear other women down, but men cannot. That doesn't seem very "equal" to me.

And that is exactly what I meant in my post you quoted. You (general/collective) say you want equality, but you only want it on YOUR terms, and that's NOT equality. You don't want men tearing down women, but you have no problem tearing down men, and other women. If Chump had been debating a man, had his opponent been a man, no one would give a rats behind (and he probably would have lost because I can't think of a worse male candidate this election cycle than him). But his opponent was a woman, and whoa ... "you don't talk to women like that." And I say BS, because you don't get it both ways. She also wanted equality, she wanted to get in the ring with HIM, she ALSO put the gloves on. And as I recall, he kept things civil & respectful toward her until SHE took the gloves off; in fact, I don't recall him launching the first torpedo against any of these women, except Megan Kelly. And let's not forget that whoever would be President would be dealing with FAR tougher adversaries than someone calling her a "nasty woman." If she (or any other woman) couldn't handle Chump, how in the hell would they handle Putin, Khamenei, Kim Jong Un, and the rest of the world's leaders from dictatorial places where women (and others) have few if any rights, least of all free speech. Do you really think for a minute - behind closed doors - they would respect her? PUHHHLEEEZE!

So which is it? Do you want to be treated "like a lady", or do you want to be treated equally, because I don't believe it is possible to 100% have both all of the time ... in politics (which ARE notoriously dirty and mean, and Chump has said he wants to change); in the corporate world (where you demand equal pay but are afforded more time off than men as well as sometimes certain 'accommodations' by virtue of your gender that they are not, and which Chump has laid out plans for even more accommodations for women & families); in blue collar/labor jobs where the average man's physical ability and endurance enables them to usually do/lift/carry 'more' than most women.

Women excel at a lot of things and I applaud, respect and support them; men excel at a lot of things and I also respect them; and there are some things we ARE equally capable of excelling, but the reality is, we are NOT truly equal, and we never will be. I don't try to change people to be, act, believe that which I do; I acknowledge & respect our differences, as well as others. You and others might think of me as 'old fashioned' for thinking that way, and that's your prerogative. But I am not the one marching down the street with a vag on my head demanding I be taken seriously and respected. I already do/am.

 

[redwood66]

JCJ you are my hero tonight. Thanks for the well thought out post. I am sure it will be mashed to bits but it resonates with me and probably many that fear to post their opinion. I post for them and I believe so do you.

 

[the_mother_thing]

JCJ you are my hero tonight. Thanks for the well thought out post. I am sure it will be mashed to bits but it resonates with me and probably many that fear to post their opinion. I post for them and I believe so do you.

(Hugs) I just saw what went down while I was writing my post (was coming and going for a bit tonight), and it is absolutely inexcusable, and uncalled for. You do NOT deserve to be on the receiving end of that kind of hate-filled evil; no one does. I am sorry that you were targeted like that.

 

[ericad]

JoCoJenn, I'm very curious to know in which ways specifically you believe men and women are "NOT truly equal, and never will be"?

Please and thank you.

 

[the_mother_thing]

JoCoJenn, I'm very curious to know in which ways specifically you don't believe men and women are equal? Please and thank you.

I outlined a few examples in my post.

And to be absolutely clear, it's not that I view us women as "inferior to men"; just different - different strengths, weaknesses, abilities, and approaches to how we do things.

 

[ericad]

I've skimmed your post more than once and can't seem to spot the info - could you bullet point it for me?

Now I'm not asking for ways in which men and women are different - but in which ways you think they're specifically unequal. There's a distinction there. Equality does not hinge upon sameness.

 

[missy]

I've skimmed your post more than once and can't seem to spot the info - could you bullet point it for me?

Now I'm not asking for ways in which men and women are different - but in which ways you think they're specifically unequal. There's a distinction there. Equality does not hinge upon sameness.

Bingo and thank you Erica.

One of the biggest problems we have facing us today is the fact that so many people still don't get it. Women still don't have equal rights under the law. There is no E.R.A. How is this possible? Why didn't we get that amendment passed? How is it in this century we are still not considered equal not just under the law but by so many people in general?

Anyone who voted for Trump doesn't care enough about women to have not voted for him. Period. That sums it up for me. I *think* that is true. Because if you cared enough about women and respected women there is no way in hell you would have voted for a man like Donald Trump to be president.

No matter what other reasons you may have for having voted for him (or abstaining from voting as IMO that is the same thing in this election) the point is clear that you (you who voted for Trump) didn't deem women important enough as a factor NOT to vote for him.

 

[ksinger]

What's done is done. Thanks for trying to help out. If anyone else has the same views as that person with the white dog avatar then please speak up. I need to know who to put on ignore if I even remain here at all. This kind of completely disgusting and intolerant BS is beyond reprehensible. I never post about a specific person here (except Eliot today - who has never been this nasty) because I don't think that is what a decent person does.

Red, I am so sorry. I never expected this thread to get out of hand the way it did. She showed her true colors. Thank God not everyone is like her.

Don't worry about it, it is not your fault at all. I did not think it was out of hand. People disagree but this is something else entirely.

Red, I'm hardly the nicest person on this board and well do I know it. But that was totally beyond the pale. No one in these threads should say what was said to you. You and I don't agree on a lot of things, but anyone should be able to see that you're a decent person.

 

[momhappy]

I think it's clear to most of us that red is a decent person. She's thoughtful, intelligent, funny, and polite. She is an asset to this forum.

JoCoJenn - your post above is spot-on and it resonated with me. Thank you for posting it

 

[momhappy]

I've skimmed your post more than once and can't seem to spot the info - could you bullet point it for me?

Now I'm not asking for ways in which men and women are different - but in which ways you think they're specifically unequal. There's a distinction there. Equality does not hinge upon sameness.

Bingo and thank you Erica.

One of the biggest problems we have facing us today is the fact that so many people still don't get it. Women still don't have equal rights under the law. There is no E.R.A. How is this possible? Why didn't we get that amendment passed? How is it in this century we are still not considered equal not just under the law but by so many people in general?

Anyone who voted for Trump doesn't care enough about women to have not voted for him. Period. That sums it up for me. I *think* that is true. Because if you cared enough about women and respected women there is no way in hell you would have voted for a man like Donald Trump to be president.

No matter what other reasons you may have for having voted for him (or abstaining from voting as IMO that is the same thing in this election) the point is clear that you (you who voted for Trump) didn't deem women important enough as a factor NOT to vote for him.

I don't know everyone who voted for Trump, so how could I possibly know that they don't care about women?
Not everyone shares the same thought process and why would we want them to?
I respect people enough to make their own choices about who they voted for and I don't label them one way or the other.
How can you fight for women's rights, but not for someone's right to vote? Rights are rights and you can't condemn someone for expressing their rights, while fighting for the rights that you deem appropriate.

 

[missy]

I've skimmed your post more than once and can't seem to spot the info - could you bullet point it for me?

Now I'm not asking for ways in which men and women are different - but in which ways you think they're specifically unequal. There's a distinction there. Equality does not hinge upon sameness.

Bingo and thank you Erica.

One of the biggest problems we have facing us today is the fact that so many people still don't get it. Women still don't have equal rights under the law. There is no E.R.A. How is this possible? Why didn't we get that amendment passed? How is it in this century we are still not considered equal not just under the law but by so many people in general?

Anyone who voted for Trump doesn't care enough about women to have not voted for him. Period. That sums it up for me. I *think* that is true. Because if you cared enough about women and respected women there is no way in hell you would have voted for a man like Donald Trump to be president.

No matter what other reasons you may have for having voted for him (or abstaining from voting as IMO that is the same thing in this election) the point is clear that you (you who voted for Trump) didn't deem women important enough as a factor NOT to vote for him.

I don't know everyone who voted for Trump, so how could I possibly know that they don't care about women?
Not everyone shares the same thought process and why would we want them to?
I respect people enough to make their own choices about who they voted for and I don't label them one way or the other.
How can you fight for women's rights, but not for someone's right to vote? Rights are rights and you can't condemn someone for expressing their rights, while fighting for the rights that you deem appropriate.

momhappy, it's just what Trump represents and what he believes in and actions speak louder than words but wow his words are loud and clear anyway IMO. There are always exceptions to the rules right? And I think (IMO) Trump is that exception. Yes it is your right to vote or not to vote. That is not up for debate. And yes I support that right. But I cannot help but feel disappointed and very sad about all the people who voted for (or abstained from voting) Trump because of who the man is. So this is my exception to the rule. Do I know people who voted for him? Yes. Are they all bad people? No. Do I respect them voting for him? No. Because he doesn't respect others and because of his flagrant disregard for so many. I find his behavior appalling on so many levels and in so many ways I cannot support him and I don't respect people who voted for him for whatever reason because the fact remains he does not respect women and so many other different groups of people. I am not as eloquent as many on this forum and I cannot adequately express how I feel about this issue but sharing how I feel about this the best I can with you.

Again I don't think everyone who voted for him is a bad person but I absolutely don't agree with those who voted for him. Is he all bad? No but I don't believe he is fit to be President. And yes I am going to label him. If he is who he shows us he is it is a travesty he is President. And why wouldn't we believe he is who he shows us he is?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/donald-trump-sexism-tracker-every-offensive-comment-in-one-place/

 

[momhappy]

I've skimmed your post more than once and can't seem to spot the info - could you bullet point it for me?

Now I'm not asking for ways in which men and women are different - but in which ways you think they're specifically unequal. There's a distinction there. Equality does not hinge upon sameness.

Bingo and thank you Erica.

One of the biggest problems we have facing us today is the fact that so many people still don't get it. Women still don't have equal rights under the law. There is no E.R.A. How is this possible? Why didn't we get that amendment passed? How is it in this century we are still not considered equal not just under the law but by so many people in general?

Anyone who voted for Trump doesn't care enough about women to have not voted for him. Period. That sums it up for me. I *think* that is true. Because if you cared enough about women and respected women there is no way in hell you would have voted for a man like Donald Trump to be president.

No matter what other reasons you may have for having voted for him (or abstaining from voting as IMO that is the same thing in this election) the point is clear that you (you who voted for Trump) didn't deem women important enough as a factor NOT to vote for him.

I don't know everyone who voted for Trump, so how could I possibly know that they don't care about women?
Not everyone shares the same thought process and why would we want them to?
I respect people enough to make their own choices about who they voted for and I don't label them one way or the other.
How can you fight for women's rights, but not for someone's right to vote? Rights are rights and you can't condemn someone for expressing their rights, while fighting for the rights that you deem appropriate.

momhappy, it's just what Trump represents and what he believes in and actions speak louder than words but wow his words are loud and clear anyway IMO. There are always exceptions to the rules right? And I think (IMO) Trump is that exception. Yes it is your right to vote or not to vote. That is not up for debate. And yes I support that right. But I cannot help but feel disappointed and very sad about all the people who voted for (or abstained from voting) Trump because of who the man is. So this is my exception to the rule. Do I know people who voted for him? Yes. Are they all bad people? No. Do I respect them voting for him? No. Because he doesn't respect others and because of his flagrant disregard for so many. I find his behavior appalling on so many levels and in so many ways I cannot support him and I don't respect people who voted for him for whatever reason because the fact remains he does not respect women and so many other different groups of people. I am not as eloquent as many on this forum and I cannot adequately express how I feel about this issue but sharing how I feel about this the best I can with you.

Again I don't think everyone who voted for him is a bad person but I absolutely don't agree with those who voted for him. Is he all bad? No but I don't believe he is fit to be President. And yes I am going to label him. If he is who he shows us he is it is a travesty he is President. And why wouldn't we believe he is who he shows us he is?

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/women/politics/donald-trump-sexism-tracker-every-offensive-comment-in-one-place/

Thank you for your reply, missy
I can certainly understand your feelings of disappointment and sadness. In fact, I share those feelings. I am sad and disappointed that there are plenty of folks that DO believe that everyone and anyone who voted for Trump (or who abstained from voting) is a bad person. To me, there is no distinction between that and someone who is racist, or sexist, or whatever..... It's the same. It's making assumptions about someone based on limited information (like who they voted for).
As far as Trump is concerned, you'll get no argument from me about what kind of person he seems to be. As I've said before, he was not my choice for president (and neither was Hillary), but he was on the ballot and that meant that people had to choose. I will not spite someone for who they voted for or didn't vote for. Voting is very personal.
Again, thanks for your post - I do understand where you're coming from (I think) and I know that this has been difficult for a lot of folks.

 

[canuk-gal]

What's done is done. Thanks for trying to help out. If anyone else has the same views as that person with the white dog avatar then please speak up. I need to know who to put on ignore if I even remain here at all. This kind of completely disgusting and intolerant BS is beyond reprehensible. I never post about a specific person here (except Eliot today - who has never been this nasty) because I don't think that is what a decent person does.

Red, I am so sorry. I never expected this thread to get out of hand the way it did. She showed her true colors. Thank God not everyone is like her.

Don't worry about it, it is not your fault at all. I did not think it was out of hand. People disagree but this is something else entirely.

Red, I'm hardly the nicest person on this board and well do I know it. But that was totally beyond the pale. No one in these threads should say what was said to you. You and I don't agree on a lot of things, but anyone should be able to see that you're a decent person.

The words that were posted were ugly and violent --and I feel upset that they were directed at you Red (or anyone). I sincerely hope this is not the new normal for PS threads...

Hope you are feeling better today Red.

kind regards--Sharon

 

[Matata]

Hugs Red. Luv ya. Remember that the words and opinions of others have the power to hurt only if you care about their opinion of you. And you shouldn't care in a venue such as this. Shoulders back, chin up, stiff upper lip firmly in place and soldier on. Don't let the cruelty of someone who is insignificant to your life story drive you away.

 

[the_mother_thing]

I've skimmed your post more than once and can't seem to spot the info - could you bullet point it for me?

Now I'm not asking for ways in which men and women are different - but in which ways you think they're specifically unequal. There's a distinction there. Equality does not hinge upon sameness.

Then perhaps a different word should be chosen, because "equal" means "same", unless you're take a "Clinton-esque" approach to the definition.

And for the sake of clarity, for the purposes of this post, I am intending my opinions on "equality" to mean "women = men"; LGBTQ, marriage, race, etc. are also important, but a more broad discussion.

Men and women biologically are NOT the same, and those differences (both of which deserve value & respect) are unavoidable catalysts to some of the things that consequently result in inequality, be it perceived or actual. As I said earlier, there are things women excel at over men; there are things men excel at over women; and, there are some things we equally excel at doing. As a woman, I am honest enough with myself to know there are many things I am not as capable of doing as well/fast/long as a man.

I am not at all advocating against having laws in place that protect everyone equally so long as they ARE in fact fair to everyone and don't create an adverse impact (otherwise, it's not equal/fair). I am saying that - in light of how men and women are different - there will likely always be areas if life that remain unequal IF you are truly being fair and applying equal expectations, such as how we are compensated in the work place.

I am a woman, and of course I support women having every opportunity, protection, benefit, etc. that men do - legally, professionally, socially, etc; but I also feel that any area women have an "advantage", that too must be leveled/equated to the extent possible for men. I don't believe in trying to create some sort of "catch up for the past" quotas that give an advantage to anyone because that just creates more inequality. We can only fix the past by creating fairness going forward, and learn from the mistakes made that created unfairness in the first place to make sure they aren't repeated.

And I will add that Redwood made a comment earlier that I wholeheartedly agree with: that we (women) have problems in our own ranks. I know the women's March yesterday was largely a peaceful, bonding demonstration of solidarity, and that is beautiful to see. But there are also many incidents (even in this thread) where women tear other women down, shame them unjustly, demand respect from men while disrespecting other women, etc., and those are poor examples to set. You may not like me, my opinions, my beliefs, or how I voted, but to say you don't respect me for those things is no different that withholding respect from someone for being gay, black, Muslim, etc. If we stand by and condone disrespect from other women, how on earth do you expect respect from men? We need to BE the example, GIVE the respect we expect, and hold others accountable/call them out when they don't.

I hope that clarifies my positions, Erica.

 

[ericad]

Part of being a critical thinker is to make JUDGMENTS about the actions of individuals, groups of people, etc. Saying "I think that Trump's platform and behavior was openly anti-equality, anti-women's rights, anti-LGBTQ rights, anti-healthcare, misogynistic, racist and offensive. Therefore it stands to reason that the people who voted for him share all or at least some of these same beliefs, which are antithetical to my own beliefs and may result in the loss of rights I currently enjoy."

This is not the same as racism, or the issue of voting rights - correlating the two is absurd. It defies logic to say something like "just because people voted for Trump doesn't mean they believe the same things he believes!" Ummmmm yes it does, THEY VOTED FOR HIM. That's what voting means. It means that you are casting yourself in with the lot of a particular candidate who shares your beliefs and will represent your beliefs in government. The argument Trump supporters attempt to make is "people voted for Trump not because they shared any of his beliefs or behaviors, but because they are sick of the status quo and want change!" Sorry, I call BS on that one lol.

For those who support Trump, he is your mouthpiece now. That's what voting for him and supporting him means. As he bashes the media, spends his first day in office obsessing about the SIZE of his crowd versus Obama's crowd, Tweets with zero regard to consequences, and barely acknowledges the 3 million citizens who took to the streets of this country yesterday, he is representing YOU. When he says that celebrities can assault women without consequence, judges women solely on their appearance, mocks the disabled, calls Hispanics criminals and rapists, suggests a Muslim registry, fails to denounce the alt-right/KKK, and the myriad other despicable things he's done, and you continue supporting and defending him, then you are painting a very clear picture of yourself and your beliefs.

I will not be complacent - I will stand at the ready to do everything in my power to protect myself against policies that will eradicate my rights. We proved yesterday that we are present, our numbers are YUGE (and can be much much bigger as there were many who didn't participate yesterday but who are like minded and able to turn out in future), and we can mobilize quickly, peacefully, and effectively across the WORLD. Trump, his cronies, and his supporters were put on notice yesterday!

 

[lovedogs]

Part of being a critical thinker is to make JUDGMENTS about the actions of individuals, groups of people, etc. Saying "I think that Trump's platform and behavior was openly anti-equality, anti-women's rights, anti-LGBTQ rights, anti-healthcare, misogynistic, racist and offensive. Therefore it stands to reason that the people who voted for him share all or at least some of these same beliefs, which are antithetical to my own beliefs and may result in the loss of rights I currently enjoy."

This is not the same as racism, or the issue of voting rights - correlating the two is absurd. It defies logic to say something like "just because people voted for Trump doesn't mean they believe the same things he believes!" Ummmmm yes it does, THEY VOTED FOR HIM. That's what voting means. It means that you are casting yourself in with the lot of a particular candidate who shares your beliefs and will represent your beliefs in government. The argument Trump supporters attempt to make is "people voted for Trump not because they shared any of his beliefs or behaviors, but because they are sick of the status quo and want change!" Sorry, I call BS on that one lol.

For those who support Trump, he is your mouthpiece now. That's what voting for him and supporting him means. As he bashes the media, spends his first day in office obsessing about the SIZE of his crowd versus Obama's crowd, Tweets with zero regard to consequences, and barely acknowledges the 3 million citizens who took to the streets of this country yesterday, he is representing YOU. When he says that celebrities can assault women without consequence, judges women solely on their appearance, mocks the disabled, calls Hispanics criminals and rapists, suggests a Muslim registry, fails to denounce the alt-right/KKK, and the myriad other despicable things he's done, and you continue supporting and defending him, then you are painting a very clear picture of yourself and your beliefs.

I will not be complacent - I will stand at the ready to do everything in my power to protect myself against policies that will eradicate my rights. We proved yesterday that we are present, our numbers are YUGE (and can be much much bigger as there were many who didn't participate yesterday but who are like minded and able to turn out in future), and we can mobilize quickly, peacefully, and effectively across the WORLD. Trump, his cronies, and his supporters were put on notice yesterday!

Couldn't have said it better, Erica! This is NOT the time for complacency, this is the time for action and standing up for what we believe in.

 

[ericad]

JoCoJenn, I will repeat that equal doesn't mean biologically the SAME. There is no argument that women are biologically different from men. I mean, who has ever suggested that women and men are biologically the same?!

Equality means equal in the eyes of the law. Women's equality means that we are equally protected under the law, that we have equality in the workplace, equal opportunity for all jobs where we are equally qualified, equal pay, and equal representation in government and across all aspects of society. The word "Equal" is shorthand for "EQUAL RIGHTS" and always has been - don't be coy, you know this.

We don't need to change the word, you just need to understand the context less literally. We are fighting for EQUAL RIGHTS and you have stated that you don't believe men and women are, or ever will be, equal. Yet I'm still waiting for specific examples of LEGAL EQUALITY that you don't believe women should have equivalent to men. Please enlighten me. I think you're playing games and know full well what the distinction is. But you will continue pretending that the fight for EQUAL RIGHTS has something to do with biological sameness, but you know better. I hope you prove me wrong.

And I do agree with you that equality extends to men too, if there are areas where they are not legally equal to women. I can't think of any examples, but perhaps there are some.

 

[lovedogs]

JoCoJenn, I will repeat that equal doesn't mean biologically the SAME. There is no argument that women are biologically different from men. I mean, who has ever suggested that women and men are biologically the same?!

Equality means equal in the eyes of the law. Women's equality means that we are equally protected under the law, that we have equality in the workplace, equal opportunity for all jobs where we are equally qualified, equal pay, and equal representation in government and across all aspects of society. The word "Equal" is shorthand for "EQUAL RIGHTS" and always has been - don't be coy, you know this.

We don't need to change the word, you just need to understand the context less literally. We are fighting for EQUAL RIGHTS and you have stated that you don't believe men and women are, or ever will be, equal. Yet I'm still waiting for specific examples of LEGAL EQUALITY that you don't believe women should have equivalent to men. Please enlighten me. I think you're playing games and know full well what the distinction is. But you will continue pretending that the fight for EQUAL RIGHTS has something to do with biological sameness, but you know better. I hope you prove me wrong.

And I do agree with you that equality extends to men too, if there are areas where they are not legally equal to women. I can't think of any examples, but perhaps there are some.

Exactly, and the wage gap is a well known fact. Not to mention that it's significantly worse for women of color. Women and men aren't treated equally (unfortunately), and should have equal rights. Also, this is worse for mothers, and gets worse with age.

 

[momhappy]

I've skimmed your post more than once and can't seem to spot the info - could you bullet point it for me?

Now I'm not asking for ways in which men and women are different - but in which ways you think they're specifically unequal. There's a distinction there. Equality does not hinge upon sameness.

Then perhaps a different word should be chosen, because "equal" means "same", unless you're take a "Clinton-esque" approach to the definition.

And for the sake of clarity, for the purposes of this post, I am intending my opinions on "equality" to mean "women = men"; LGBTQ, marriage, race, etc. are also important, but a more broad discussion.

Men and women biologically are NOT the same, and those differences (both of which deserve value & respect) are unavoidable catalysts to some of the things that consequently result in inequality, be it perceived or actual. As I said earlier, there are things women excel at over men; there are things men excel at over women; and, there are some things we equally excel at doing. As a woman, I am honest enough with myself to know there are many things I am not as capable of doing as well/fast/long as a man.

I am not at all advocating against having laws in place that protect everyone equally so long as they ARE in fact fair to everyone and don't create an adverse impact (otherwise, it's not equal/fair). I am saying that - in light of how men and women are different - there will likely always be areas if life that remain unequal IF you are truly being fair and applying equal expectations, such as how we are compensated in the work place.

I am a woman, and of course I support women having every opportunity, protection, benefit, etc. that men do - legally, professionally, socially, etc; but I also feel that any area women have an "advantage", that too must be leveled/equated to the extent possible for men. I don't believe in trying to create some sort of "catch up for the past" quotas that give an advantage to anyone because that just creates more inequality. We can only fix the past by creating fairness going forward, and learn from the mistakes made that created unfairness in the first place to make sure they aren't repeated.

And I will add that Redwood made a comment earlier that I wholeheartedly agree with: that we (women) have problems in our own ranks. I know the women's March yesterday was largely a peaceful, bonding demonstration of solidarity, and that is beautiful to see. But there are also many incidents (even in this thread) where women tear other women down, shame them unjustly, demand respect from men while disrespecting other women, etc., and those are poor examples to set. You may not like me, my opinions, my beliefs, or how I voted, but to say you don't respect me for those things is no different that withholding respect from someone for being gay, black, Muslim, etc. If we stand by and condone disrespect from other women, how on earth do you expect respect from men? We need to BE the example, GIVE the respect we expect, and hold others accountable/call them out when they don't.

I hope that clarifies my positions, Erica.

Again, another wonderfully written and thoughtful post

 

[ericad]

Ok Momhappy, perhaps YOU can enlighten me about areas where women should NOT have equal rights as men? I'm still waiting for specific examples.

JoCoJenn, what legal protections do women enjoy which create inequality for men? Again, I'm standing by, awaiting enlightenment. I am simple, though, and need specific examples of laws currently in place or rights women are asking for, which will create inequality for men.

Please and thank you.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Anyone who voted for Trump doesn't care enough about women to have not voted for him. Period. That sums it up for me. I *think* that is true. Because if you cared enough about women and respected women there is no way in hell you would have voted for a man like Donald Trump to be president.

No matter what other reasons you may have for having voted for him (or abstaining from voting as IMO that is the same thing in this election) the point is clear that you (you who voted for Trump) didn't deem women important enough as a factor NOT to vote for him.

Missy - you are one of the most kindhearted people on this forum. And I fully respect your reasons for feeling how you do.

This election, quite frankly, sucked! The candidates sucked. The behavior all around by the candidates sucked. The process being manipulated by committees and the media sucked. The lack of accountability sucked. One party may have "won" the election, but I do believe - having witnessed what I did the last year during all of this - that America lost. We lost respect, civility, accountability, a sense of community, cohesiveness, unity and what has binded us together. And that is sad.

I have shared some of my general rationale for voting for Trump in other threads, but I will elaborate a bit, not in hopes of gaining your approval or anything; just so you and others may perhaps understand, especially as it pertains to this particular topic of women's rights, etc., how *this* woman could vote for him.

A few facts - I am a conservative. I am a patriot. I love my country and ALL its citizens, and to the depths of my heart and soul I appreciate & respect those who have fought for every single freedom and right we enjoy today. I don't view our constitution as just words on paper or a basis for deciding cases; I view it as centuries of bloodshed by people who thankfully had the courage, bravery, wisdom and foresight to build a framework that would allow future generations an opportunity to experience life, liberty and happiness. It's not perfect, but without it, where would we be today?

I did not view this election from the perspective of "a woman"; rather, as an American with the utmost respect for our country, it's safety & security, and it's laws. I did not like seeing the things happening in my country that I have seen over the last few years - the lack of national security; attacks on our soil (as well as that of our allies); the divisiveness that I feel grew significantly between genders, races, religions, etc.; the lack of respect for our country by others; the economic instability; the loss of jobs and the twisting of numbers & terms to make it appear better than it really is; and this list goes on. The reason these things were important to me is because - without them - we risk losing our country, constitution, freedoms, and rights. These things are all much bigger than 'me' and my gender, and dare I say that - to cast a vote for President against Trump solely because he is perceived a misogynist or a woman-hater is IMO selfish and short-sighted, and I don't mean that YOU (Missy) are those things; rather, that's just how I feel given the enormous responsibilities of the position.

When I had to evaluate these two candidates (who both sucked) and make a choice, I had to do it for my country; not personalities or gender. For me, not voting was not an option I would consider. I had to choose which person I felt was most capable and qualified to lead, make tough decisions with the whole country's best interests in mind (not just one segment of the country). I had to decide - if it was my daughter wearing the uniform and defending our country, who would best have her back and respect & value her life to ensure she had the support needed to carry out her mission and would put her in harms way only out of imminent and ultimate necessity. I had to decide which person I felt most respected this country, it's citizens, it's laws, and would make those things a priority over what other countries do, think, enact, etc. I had to decide which person was best capable of putting more people back to work. I had to decide which person would most respect the reasons this country was founded in the first place, and not be wasteful with nor misappropriate my tax dollars in ways I don't feel are appropriate, which subsequently impedes my ability to pursue my definition of happiness.

I had to make this very difficult choice based on what I knew about both people to be factual and what I perceived to be truthful from and about each. I had to look at their history, records, words, experiences, accomplishments, and failures. And I had to decide - considering those things - out of these two sucky candidates, which most aligned with my priorities noted above. For a slew of reasons I have shared in many other threads, that person was not HRC, because even with a pig of a man as her opponent, IMO she overwhelmingly demonstrated untrustworthiness in everything that was important me. I do believe she broke the law (even if she was not found guilty) by virtue of her own admissions & evidence, and as vile as he may be, I do not believe he broke the law by virtue of the same. And to this point, I also could not in good conscience support someone - a lawyer at that - to be the leader of our country.

NO part of my decision was based on nor intended in any way to reduce nor elevate any one gender, race, religion, sexual orientation, etc. It came down to two very different, imperfect people who applied for the job, and I made what I felt was the most fair decision about my vote considering what I believe to be the job description and qualifications necessary for success - for my country. And I considered both candidates equally with the same criteria.

While I don't expect you or anyone else to agree with me or my choice, I truly hope that by sharing all of that, my perspective, that you now at least better understand why and how a woman could vote for Trump.

 

[momhappy]

No, ericad, I don't believe that I can enlighten you. I'm afraid that I don't speak nearly as eloquently as JoCoJenn. I understand that you feel the need for further clarification, but for some of us, JoCoJenn's posts were crystal clear.

 

[Calliecake]

Part of being a critical thinker is to make JUDGMENTS about the actions of individuals, groups of people, etc. Saying "I think that Trump's platform and behavior was openly anti-equality, anti-women's rights, anti-LGBTQ rights, anti-healthcare, misogynistic, racist and offensive. Therefore it stands to reason that the people who voted for him share all or at least some of these same beliefs, which are antithetical to my own beliefs and may result in the loss of rights I currently enjoy."

This is not the same as racism, or the issue of voting rights - correlating the two is absurd. It defies logic to say something like "just because people voted for Trump doesn't mean they believe the same things he believes!" Ummmmm yes it does, THEY VOTED FOR HIM. That's what voting means. It means that you are casting yourself in with the lot of a particular candidate who shares your beliefs and will represent your beliefs in government. The argument Trump supporters attempt to make is "people voted for Trump not because they shared any of his beliefs or behaviors, but because they are sick of the status quo and want change!" Sorry, I call BS on that one lol.

For those who support Trump, he is your mouthpiece now. That's what voting for him and supporting him means. As he bashes the media, spends his first day in office obsessing about the SIZE of his crowd versus Obama's crowd, Tweets with zero regard to consequences, and barely acknowledges the 3 million citizens who took to the streets of this country yesterday, he is representing YOU. When he says that celebrities can assault women without consequence, judges women solely on their appearance, mocks the disabled, calls Hispanics criminals and rapists, suggests a Muslim registry, fails to denounce the alt-right/KKK, and the myriad other despicable things he's done, and you continue supporting and defending him, then you are painting a very clear picture of yourself and your beliefs.

I will not be complacent - I will stand at the ready to do everything in my power to protect myself against policies that will eradicate my rights. We proved yesterday that we are present, our numbers are YUGE (and can be much much bigger as there were many who didn't participate yesterday but who are like minded and able to turn out in future), and we can mobilize quickly, peacefully, and effectively across the WORLD. Trump, his cronies, and his supporters were put on notice yesterday!

Great posts Erica and Missy.

 

[chrono]

I usually do not post on weekends but had to log in to support Redwood. Redwood and I don't always agree with each other's views but I can tell that she is a good person with good intentions. The personal attack was uncalled for.