Anyone Else Watching?

[nala]

For those of you concerned about Red, she was quick to defend herself and responded with profanity and name calling--personal attacks. Just saying....

I do not want to relive last night, nala. I do not blame red for her response. I was here and know what she read. What I do feel was a mitigating circumstance was that the poster who put up the offensive words immediately took them down. Clearly that poster felt that s/he had posted in haste and rethought what s/he had written. Anyone can say something in anger and regret it.

Deb

Not trying to relive yesterday. But I also have much respect for the othe poster. And I hope that poster isn't made to feel unwelcome either, esp since she obviously realized her mistake.

 

[OreoRosies86]

People say things when they're angry, it's not an excuse it just is. Red has repeatedly said that she views life in a logical rather than emotional way so I was surprised by her reaction as well. It was a good reminder for all that calm down time was needed. That's all I'll say about it.

 

[momhappy]

Momhappy, you edited your post. It originally said women firefighters do not perform as well as men.

.....and that's exactly why I edited it....because I felt it was more appropriate to pose it as a question
I understand that times have changed, but it is still a male-dominated field for a number of reasons.

Yes, but then don't act confused as to why people responded the way they did!

I'm not acting confused - I am confused. I get it Elliot and I'm not going to debate you. Have a nice night

 

[the_mother_thing]

Sorry to jump in the conversation but: What jobs are these and do they comprise such a huge percentage of all jobs in the that it would result in a 20% pay gap? Outside jobs that require really heavy lifting (I've seen women doing crossfit who can lift massive amounts of weight so this may not even hold true), I can't think of any other jobs that women would inherently not be able to perform as well as men.

Welcome to PS!

I have not conducted employee interviews, completed a statistical analysis of the labor force, wages, etc. In earlier posts I clarified my opinion with the word "generally", because I acknowledge there ARE some women who not only can perform certain physical activities as well as a man, but in many cases also surpass them; however, in "physically demanding" jobs, GENERALLY speaking, men have more strength and endurance, and therefore may reasonably be able to "perform" more/longer than a woman.

In the interest of true fairness and equality - I don't believe it to be fair to pay two people the exact same salary when one bears more "burden" than the other (whether that is M/W, M/M, or W/W). I - at no point - stated that I condone any pay disparity where it is not (by measure of employee performance) warranted.

 

[missy]

For those of you concerned about Red, she was quick to defend herself and responded with profanity and name calling--personal attacks. Just saying....

I do not want to relive last night, nala. I do not blame red for her response. I was here and know what she read. What I do feel was a mitigating circumstance was that the poster who put up the offensive words immediately took them down. Clearly that poster felt that s/he had posted in haste and rethought what s/he had written. Anyone can say something in anger and regret it.

Deb

Not trying to relive yesterday. But I also have much respect for the othe poster. And I hope that poster isn't made to feel unwelcome either, esp since she obviously realized her mistake.

Nala, I agree.

I am sorry this has happened and for what both posters are going through. I think both ladies were shaken and upset by the events and didn't mean to say everything they said. It is a difficult topic and things got heated. We have all (at least most of us) said things in the heat of the moment we wished we didn't say and as soon as the words were out of our mouth we wish we could turn back the clock and not say them. This is what happened here and the other poster deleted her comments but another poster quoted her and her original comments which she couldn't delete. She reported the post to Ella but unfortunately the damage was done.

 

[missy]

JoCoJenn, thanks for your explanation in reply to my post to momhappy.

I recently watched a documentary interviewing women actors (who generally prefer the word actor to actress as some consider the word actress demeaning) and what do you think about leading ladies who have the most lines/biggest part getting much less pay than their minor role male costars? Not cool and rampant in Hollywood. Even still in this day and age. Pretty disheartening and well I won't go into the whole documentary but I was shocked and disgusted by the treatment of women in general in the acting field.

Just an example of where we are still not "equal" in pay but if you watch the documentary you will see there is so much further to go in general. More men writers and hence more male roles and so on and so forth.

And if you complain you are labeled a bitch and it is even harder to get roles.

 

[canuk-gal]

For those of you concerned about Red, she was quick to defend herself and responded with profanity and name calling--personal attacks. Just saying....

I do not want to relive last night, nala. I do not blame red for her response. I was here and know what she read. What I do feel was a mitigating circumstance was that the poster who put up the offensive words immediately took them down. Clearly that poster felt that s/he had posted in haste and rethought what s/he had written. Anyone can say something in anger and regret it.

Deb

Not trying to relive yesterday. But I also have much respect for the othe poster. And I hope that poster isn't made to feel unwelcome either, esp since she obviously realized her mistake.

Nala, I agree.

I am sorry this has happened and for what both posters are going through. I think both ladies were shaken and upset by the events and didn't mean to say everything they said. It is a difficult topic and things got heated. We have all (at least most of us) said things in the heat of the moment we wished we didn't say and as soon as the words were out of our mouth we wish we could turn back the clock and not say them. This is what happened here and the other poster deleted her comments but another poster quoted her and her original comments which she couldn't delete. She reported the post to Ella but unfortunately the damage was done.

HI:

I come to PS to escape. There I said it. Cottonheadedninniemuggins that I am.

I have enough entertainment, stress, workload/obligations/accountability, and drama IRL to come here and happen upon causal looking threads that leave a traumatic footprint. While it is true I don't take everything personally, I just can't unread things. Yanno, like history.

Time to drop the PS rope.

 

[missy]

Sharon, you know how much I care about you and respect you and genuinely like you. I would very much miss you if you leave. Please reconsider because it wouldn't just be one person who would miss you but many. You are adored here and I am asking you to not leave for good.

 

[Calliecake]

Sharon, I also hope you reconsider. Can I also add that for the most part Pricescopers are nice supportive people. Most of us do not know each other personally in real life. If someone says something out of line my first thought always is that I have no idea what this person is going thru in their real life. Trust me if the past year has taught me anything it is that people can and do have truly awful days. None of us are perfect. We all make mistakes and says things from time to time we wish we could take back. We are all human.

 

[ruby59]

For those of you concerned about Red, she was quick to defend herself and responded with profanity and name calling--personal attacks. Just saying....

I do not want to relive last night, nala. I do not blame red for her response. I was here and know what she read. What I do feel was a mitigating circumstance was that the poster who put up the offensive words immediately took them down. Clearly that poster felt that s/he had posted in haste and rethought what s/he had written. Anyone can say something in anger and regret it.

Deb

Not trying to relive yesterday. But I also have much respect for the othe poster. And I hope that poster isn't made to feel unwelcome either, esp since she obviously realized her mistake.

Nala, I agree.

I am sorry this has happened and for what both posters are going through. I think both ladies were shaken and upset by the events and didn't mean to say everything they said. It is a difficult topic and things got heated. We have all (at least most of us) said things in the heat of the moment we wished we didn't say and as soon as the words were out of our mouth we wish we could turn back the clock and not say them. This is what happened here and the other poster deleted her comments but another poster quoted her and her original comments which she couldn't delete. She reported the post to Ella but unfortunately the damage was done.

Kenny quoted her and so did I. I immediately removed my post when Deb asked me to. In fact, if you people were not so hard on me with this quote thing, I would have just replied without the quote.

Kenny seemed a bit confused and did not edit in time.

But that does not negate that poster's terrible comment or the awful one she made to me, which Ella deleted.

I still have the one to Red and it was truly unreedemable.

 

[momhappy]

For those of you concerned about Red, she was quick to defend herself and responded with profanity and name calling--personal attacks. Just saying....

I do not want to relive last night, nala. I do not blame red for her response. I was here and know what she read. What I do feel was a mitigating circumstance was that the poster who put up the offensive words immediately took them down. Clearly that poster felt that s/he had posted in haste and rethought what s/he had written. Anyone can say something in anger and regret it.

Deb

Not trying to relive yesterday. But I also have much respect for the othe poster. And I hope that poster isn't made to feel unwelcome either, esp since she obviously realized her mistake.

Nala, I agree.

I am sorry this has happened and for what both posters are going through. I think both ladies were shaken and upset by the events and didn't mean to say everything they said. It is a difficult topic and things got heated. We have all (at least most of us) said things in the heat of the moment we wished we didn't say and as soon as the words were out of our mouth we wish we could turn back the clock and not say them. This is what happened here and the other poster deleted her comments but another poster quoted her and her original comments which she couldn't delete. She reported the post to Ella but unfortunately the damage was done.

HI:

I come to PS to escape. There I said it. Cottonheadedninniemuggins that I am.

I have enough entertainment, stress, workload/obligations/accountability, and drama IRL to come here and happen upon causal looking threads that leave a traumatic footprint. While it is true I don't take everything personally, I just can't unread things. Yanno, like history.

Time to drop the PS rope.

I enjoy reading your posts. If you decide to leave, I wish you all the best.

 

[AGBF]

You ain't leaving me, Sharon! I've had your e-mail address for about ten years now!

Big hugs,
Deb

 

[Tekate]

What's done is done. Thanks for trying to help out. If anyone else has the same views as that person with the white dog avatar then please speak up. I need to know who to put on ignore if I even remain here at all. This kind of completely disgusting and intolerant BS is beyond reprehensible. I never post about a specific person here (except Eliot today - who has never been this nasty) because I don't think that is what a decent person does.

I just logged in and was perusing, I don't know anyone's avatar as I have so many controls on my machine that all I see is a ghostly sight.. But I am glad I didn't read the poster's remarks.

I noticed that all the more alt right posters went out of their way to give me props on my two implants (which STILL hurt btw ) I thought that showed character on all of them and you. and I appreciated it mucho. As I appreciated everyone who gave me a high five and thought it was gonna be about breast implants!

We are a community Red, and I believe we are all products of what we have experienced in life. Different experiences different views.

Again, sorry about the insult you are an American and you deserve respect as we all do here (whether American, Aussie, British, Canadian, Hong Kong wherever). So you are owed an apology, I give huge huge kudos for being strong and not wavering, you are a strong woman!

peace.

 

[the_mother_thing]

JoCoJenn, thanks for your explanation in reply to my post to momhappy.

I recently watched a documentary interviewing women actors (who generally prefer the word actor to actress as some consider the word actress demeaning) and what do you think about leading ladies who have the most lines/biggest part getting much less pay than their minor role male costars? Not cool and rampant in Hollywood. Even still in this day and age. Pretty disheartening and well I won't go into the whole documentary but I was shocked and disgusted by the treatment of women in general in the acting field.

Just an example of where we are still not "equal" in pay but if you watch the documentary you will see there is so much further to go in general. More men writers and hence more male roles and so on and so forth.

And if you complain you are labeled a bitch and it is even harder to get roles.

That is a tough one, Missy. And it sound like an interesting documentary; was it on regular tv (discovery, history, etc) or a premium channel? If I can get it, I would be interested in watching.

Acting/modeling/etc - that's a tough one because while talent is a criterion for success, I think it is also largely the "looks" driven popularity of some men that baits the people who enjoy watching/looking at them - mostly women. I don't see acting an area where there should be any sort of measurable or justifiable difference that would warrant such a large disparity solely based on gender (the biological differences I earlier referenced). I suppose (not condone, mind you) that the only justification one *might try* to muster for it - and I am thinking about major celeb/actors vs small theater here - could be the anticipated larger revenue generated by one actor's fame/popularity over another's. But that is a giant leap, and feel it would lead to women feeling more like they have to do things they otherwise wouldn't (e.g., semi-nude scenes, etc). And that is not right.

Separately - I hope no one feels that I am in any way condoning or advocating pay disparities where they should not be. My earlier comments perhaps were not quite clear to say that I know they do not apply widely at all; that the places they do are few, and in most cases, career fields, etc., men and women 'perform' equally and SHOULD be compensated as such. I apologize if I failed to make that distinction.

 

[the_mother_thing]

Jenn-thank you for posting this on red's behalf. I hope that you and I can finally make up our differences. I have apologized to you before, but you may have had me on ignore. My friendship with red and yours with her are both deep. I would appreciate it if you would allow that to give us another chance to be civil to each other. I have had the opportunity to practice friendship, following red's example of being able to be courteous to people with whom she disagrees, with a conservative. I love her very much. Now I might do better with you.

red-Hang in there! I need you back here!

Hugs,
Deb/AGBF

Deb - I'm sorry I missed your post in my reply-fest; it wasn't intentional. I hold no ill will or feelings toward you in the least. And I respect your positions and posts on a lot of topics. You bring a perspective that - ironically - I think we have a lot of similar passion about, albeit sometimes we see it slightly different. And that's okay because we grow from that.

I do care also about Red as a friend who I hope one day to be able to meet in person because I have come to really appreciate her as a wise person, contributor on this (and another) forum, and as a fellow bling junkie. What was said to her last night was so far out of left field and uncalled for, and IMO not even remotely in the realm of the conversation that I can't muster any explanation that makes sense. And it doesn't matter nor excuse it. I just look forward to Red's return, and hope there is a sincere apology awaiting her when she does.

Hugs backatcha!

 

[missy]

JoCoJenn, thanks for your explanation in reply to my post to momhappy.

I recently watched a documentary interviewing women actors (who generally prefer the word actor to actress as some consider the word actress demeaning) and what do you think about leading ladies who have the most lines/biggest part getting much less pay than their minor role male costars? Not cool and rampant in Hollywood. Even still in this day and age. Pretty disheartening and well I won't go into the whole documentary but I was shocked and disgusted by the treatment of women in general in the acting field.

Just an example of where we are still not "equal" in pay but if you watch the documentary you will see there is so much further to go in general. More men writers and hence more male roles and so on and so forth.

And if you complain you are labeled a bitch and it is even harder to get roles.

That is a tough one, Missy. And it sound like an interesting documentary; was it on regular tv (discovery, history, etc) or a premium channel? If I can get it, I would be interested in watching.

Acting/modeling/etc - that's a tough one because while talent is a criterion for success, I think it is also largely the "looks" driven popularity of some men that baits the people who enjoy watching/looking at them - mostly women. I don't see acting an area where there should be any sort of measurable or justifiable difference that would warrant such a large disparity solely based on gender (the biological differences I earlier referenced). I suppose (not condone, mind you) that the only justification one *might try* to muster for it - and I am thinking about major celeb/actors vs small theater here - could be the anticipated larger revenue generated by one actor's fame/popularity over another's. But that is a giant leap, and feel it would lead to women feeling more like they have to do things they otherwise wouldn't (e.g., semi-nude scenes, etc). And that is not right.

Separately - I hope no one feels that I am in any way condoning or advocating pay disparities where they should not be. My earlier comments perhaps were not quite clear to say that I know they do not apply widely at all; that the places they do are few, and in most cases, career fields, etc., men and women 'perform' equally and SHOULD be compensated as such. I apologize if I failed to make that distinction.

JoCoJenn, I found it for you.
http://www.sho.com/titles/3412587/that-galwho-was-in-that-thing-that-guy-2

There is no gray area for me here. When an actor gets paid less simply because they are a woman and not a man. Happening in Hollywood and happening all over still in 2017. No sugar coating from me. This is an unpleasant fact and sexism exists everywhere. As does Racism, Classism, Ableism, Anti-Semitism, Ageism and Heterosexism and unfortunately more isms exist.

http://www.sascwr.org/files/www/resources_pdfs/anti_oppression/Definition_of_Isms.pdf

 

[the_mother_thing]

JoCoJenn, I found it for you.
http://www.sho.com/titles/3412587/that-galwho-was-in-that-thing-that-guy-2

There is no gray area for me here. When an actor gets paid less simply because they are a woman and not a man. Happening in Hollywood and happening all over still in 2017. No sugar coating from me. This is an unpleasant fact and sexism exists everywhere. As does Racism, Classism, Ableism, Anti-Semitism, Ageism and Heterosexism and unfortunately more isms exist.

http://www.sascwr.org/files/www/resources_pdfs/anti_oppression/Definition_of_Isms.pdf

Crap, I don't have Showtime (I'm a basic cable kind of gal as I don't watch much tv). I do appreciate you posting the link for me!

On your other point, different industries have a multitude of factors that don't make it so cut & dry, especially the arts. If a man and woman both paint a 20x20 canvas in 8 hours, what is the likelihood they would both be paid the exact same amount for that same work? The price is driven by the art itself, how well known/popular the artist is, etc., is it not?

I admittedly don't know the first thing about the inner workings of Hollywood (and quite frankly, I think they're ALL quite over-paid, but that's JMHO). But if an actor (male or female) gains enough fame/popularity where the movies they star in are grossing hundreds of millions of dollars because of that person's performance or presence in the film, does he or she not deserve to earn more? If not, why do they even earn the millions of dollars that they do for a film? Why aren't they paid the equivalent to an indy film actor, or perhaps theater, if the work performed is the same?

Sales is another example - two real estate agents with the same credentials spend the same amount of time in a month selling the same number of houses. But one person earns more commission because the type of homes that person sold were priced higher than the other person's - a difference driven PURELY by the customer. Does the one who earned a higher commission for the month split the difference with the other person?

That does NOT mean I think women should earn less than a man; the examples above happen to people of the same gender. I just don't think every job/industry is so cut & dry that a simple 'blanket' approach can be applied specific to gender without also looking at ALL factors.

 

[t-c]

Sorry to jump in the conversation but: What jobs are these and do they comprise such a huge percentage of all jobs in the that it would result in a 20% pay gap? Outside jobs that require really heavy lifting (I've seen women doing crossfit who can lift massive amounts of weight so this may not even hold true), I can't think of any other jobs that women would inherently not be able to perform as well as men.

Welcome to PS!

I have not conducted employee interviews, completed a statistical analysis of the labor force, wages, etc. In earlier posts I clarified my opinion with the word "generally", because I acknowledge there ARE some women who not only can perform certain physical activities as well as a man, but in many cases also surpass them; however, in "physically demanding" jobs, GENERALLY speaking, men have more strength and endurance, and therefore may reasonably be able to "perform" more/longer than a woman.

In the interest of true fairness and equality - I don't believe it to be fair to pay two people the exact same salary when one bears more "burden" than the other (whether that is M/W, M/M, or W/W). I - at no point - stated that I condone any pay disparity where it is not (by measure of employee performance) warranted.

I understand your post: folks should be paid less if it is "warranted". But if we take your point a little further, given the fact that there currently exists a pay disparity between men and women, would you then say that it is warranted, that there is a valid reason that women get paid less?

Men may have more strength; as for having more endurance, birthing/labor should dispel that myth. The thing is, there are fewer of these physically demanding jobs, fewer jobs that require brute strength (most use motorized pallet jacks), fewer of these repetitive manufacturing jobs that require (so they say) endurance, yet the pay gap endures. And it persists even when broken down by occupation: truck drivers, financial planners, even in female dominated fields such as teaching and nursing, men are paid more than women. How do we explain that?

 

[t-c]

...
That does NOT mean I think women should earn less than a man; the examples above happen to people of the same gender. I just don't think every job/industry is so cut & dry that a simple 'blanket' approach can be applied specific to gender without also looking at ALL factors.

No one is saying that women should get equal pay simply because they are female. The goal is to be paid the same for doing the same job -- not just having the same job, but doing the same job as a man.

The problem is that women fall behind before they even start working: their salary offers are generally lower, when they try to negotiate for more it is seen negatively, etc... It's really disheartening.

 

[the_mother_thing]

T-C: I don't feel it necessary to keep repeating myself, especially when my previous statements (which you have quoted) make it quite clear that I do NOT agree with gender pay disparities in cases where two people ARE performing the same work. The only caveat I added was that there are SOME job/industries where it is not as simple as saying "performing the same work".

 

[missy]

...
That does NOT mean I think women should earn less than a man; the examples above happen to people of the same gender. I just don't think every job/industry is so cut & dry that a simple 'blanket' approach can be applied specific to gender without also looking at ALL factors.

No one is saying that women should get equal pay simply because they are female. The goal is to be paid the same for doing the same job -- not just having the same job, but doing the same job as a man.

The problem is that women fall behind before they even start working: their salary offers are generally lower, when they try to negotiate for more it is seen negatively, etc... It's really disheartening.

Yes and I completely agree. It happens all the time.

JoCoJenn, I know you don't get SHOWTIME but perhaps if you google it you can find another way to watch it. And no worries if you don't want to because it doesn't matter. There are examples of pay disparity (and other disparities) everywhere (and not just for women but since we are illustrating that example right now) and you just need to look for it to find it. I am in the medical field where it is less rampant but it still exists. We still have a far way to go and I really feel for the daughters (and sons) and their children more so than even us since they are the future. And I hope there is a fairer future ahead.

Let's just agree to disagree if that is OK with you because I am not trying to change your mind. It exists and it is real and if you don't want to or can't see it that is fine but that doesn't mean it isn't happening all over our country right now. Because it IS.

 

[the_mother_thing]

JoCoJenn, I know you don't get SHOWTIME but perhaps if you google it you can find another way to watch it. And no worries if you don't want to because it doesn't matter. There are examples of pay disparity (and other disparities) everywhere (and not just for women but since we are illustrating that example right now) and you just need to look for it to find it. I am in the medical field where it is less rampant but it still exists. We still have a far way to go and I really feel for the daughters (and sons) and their children more so than even us since they are the future. And I hope there is a fairer future ahead.

Let's just agree to disagree if that is OK with you because I am not trying to change your mind. It exists and it is real and if you don't want to or can't see it that is fine but that doesn't mean it isn't happening all over our country right now. Because it IS.

I would LOVE to watch it to better understand the issue; and I will look around online to see if it's available elsewhere. Not being a tv person, I assume if it's a premium channel doc'y, that you would have to subscribe to see it, but I will look.

Agreeing to disagree is ok; I respect you & your perspective. But I don't think it's that we necessarily disagree per se; I think we perhaps just view the word "equal" somewhat differently. I *think* (and please correct me if I am wrong, because I genuinely AM trying to understand), that you and perhaps others believe "equal = same", and I believe "equal = fair". And I think that may be where we have a difference in viewpoint, because those two words are not synonymous in my mind as it relates to this topic.

And I sincerely hope you are not inferring any belligerence or frustration in my posts directed at you (personally) because I certainly don't intend any; as I noted earlier, you are one of the kindest people on PS, IMO, and are always respectful in your posts. Unfortunately, the Internet can make it hard to decipher a person's attitude, so I hope you haven't mistaken mine as negative.

 

[missy]

JoCoJenn, I know you don't get SHOWTIME but perhaps if you google it you can find another way to watch it. And no worries if you don't want to because it doesn't matter. There are examples of pay disparity (and other disparities) everywhere (and not just for women but since we are illustrating that example right now) and you just need to look for it to find it. I am in the medical field where it is less rampant but it still exists. We still have a far way to go and I really feel for the daughters (and sons) and their children more so than even us since they are the future. And I hope there is a fairer future ahead.

Let's just agree to disagree if that is OK with you because I am not trying to change your mind. It exists and it is real and if you don't want to or can't see it that is fine but that doesn't mean it isn't happening all over our country right now. Because it IS.

I would LOVE to watch it to better understand the issue; and I will look around online to see if it's available elsewhere. Not being a tv person, I assume if it's a premium channel doc'y, that you would have to subscribe to see it, but I will look.

Agreeing to disagree is ok; I respect you & your perspective. But I don't think it's that we necessarily disagree per se; I think we perhaps just view the word "equal" somewhat differently. I *think* (and please correct me if I am wrong, because I genuinely AM trying to understand), that you and perhaps others believe "equal = same", and I believe "equal = fair". And I think that may be where we have a difference in viewpoint, because those two words are not synonymous in my mind as it relates to this topic.

And I sincerely hope you are not inferring any belligerence or frustration in my posts directed at you (personally) because I certainly don't intend any; as I noted earlier, you are one of the kindest people on PS, IMO, and are always respectful in your posts. Unfortunately, the Internet can make it hard to decipher a person's attitude, so I hope you haven't mistaken mine as negative.

I don't believe equal means being the same when we are talking about people as we are all different. Rather being equal means (to me) having the same rights and opportunities. That each of us is equal in our value as a being. That we deserve the same opportunities and we all deserve a good education and the right to the pursuit of happiness (life and liberty and all that jazz). That we all have the right to competent health care no matter our ability to pay.

We are not the SAME but we deserve the same rights and opportunities to excel. And for doing the same job we deserve the same pay with all other things being equal. And there is a huge disparity in this area and many others and it is easy to twist words so I hope you understand the general concept I am trying to convey because yes it would be easy to rip it apart. But hopefully you get the gist.

It is a complex issue and I cannot explain it with a few bullet points but didn't want to leave your question unanswered. Fair is open to interpretation isn't it? And I stand by the fact (IMO) our country is still not "fair" in its treatment of people who are not white christian males (as an example). Nothing against white christian males (I married one after all didn't I?).

 

[chrono]

Missy,
I wish I am able to express myself as clearly and calmly as you just did above. All I can write is "see Missy's post above" as we share the same opinion and belief about equal rights and equal opportunities for everyone.

 

[the_mother_thing]

I don't believe equal means being the same when we are talking about people as we are all different. Rather being equal means (to me) having the same rights and opportunities. That each of us is equal in our value as a being. That we deserve the same opportunities and we all deserve a good education and the right to the pursuit of happiness (life and liberty and all that jazz). That we all have the right to competent health care no matter our ability to pay.

We are not the SAME but we deserve the same rights and opportunities to excel. And for doing the same job we deserve the same pay with all other things being equal. And there is a huge disparity in this area and many others and it is easy to twist words so I hope you understand the general concept I am trying to convey because yes it would be easy to rip it apart. But hopefully you get the gist.

It is a complex issue and I cannot explain it with a few bullet points but didn't want to leave your question unanswered. Fair is open to interpretation isn't it? And I stand by the fact (IMO) our country is still not "fair" in its treatment of people who are not white christian males (as an example). Nothing against white christian males (I married one after all didn't I?).

The bolded part is basically what I was trying to convey all along; and you are correct, it is a VERY complex issue, and there are MANY areas of unfairness ... not only in our workforce. I don't think you & I are really that far apart on this.

My hope is that while we work to solve one problem, we don't create a new one that inadvertently & unfairly impacts others - including the 'white Christian males'. I think that in part has led us (as a country) to the point we are now with situations like this (e.g. amendments and laws that could/should have been crafted to provide more broad application to 'all people' vs any 'one group'). And I guess by virtue of my profession, this (assessing up- & downstream impacts) is front-of-mind for me when creating solution/s to solve problems.

I can understand perhaps you not wishing to continue the discussion, and that is perfectly fine. But I am learning & understanding from your respectful & thoughtful responses, so thank you!