Am I paying too much or am I just being difficult?

[rrrppp]

Hello, 1st post, I just purchased a diamond and band from Robbins Brothers on recommendation from a friend who's wife's ring is very nice and from there. This is what I bought:

Echo Diamond (more facets)
Cut: Excellent
Clarify: SI2 (looks very good for an SI2, only a few scratches which are not visible to the naked eye)
Color: H
Carat: .71

Price: $3,495
Band: $1,150; yellow gold, 14K with tiny diamonds around the band (not sure what types of diamonds they are)

Now, I purchased the ring and band in full and also bought the $149 service promise and will pay $75 for the setting fee. On my original visit, the salesperson verbally stated $950 for the band. Since the band is custom, they have it on order and it won't arrive for about a month. A day after I bought the ring, they informed me they couldn't hold the diamond until the ring arrived for insurance reasons. I complained as they originally told me I could just pick the ring up when it was ready. During this complaint, I asked them to waive the $149 and $75 charges. The follow up email seemed to say 'ok we will waive this' but after I replied and said 'thanks for waiving those charges' they responded with they can't, company policy. So, there was some miscommunication.

So, my question is, am I paying too much for this ring ($4,869 total + tax) and am I being too difficult of a customer? I am trying to get a good deal but I feel like I am being told one thing and then told something different after the fact. I feel taken advantage of, I almost want to just return the diamond (the band is custom so I can't return that) and shop somewhere else. Both the diamond and band are very nice but I just feel like I'm paying too much. I also would like to note I don't want to buy a diamond online (I want to see if first and my GF doesn't like Blue Nile).

Thanks for the help!

 

[JDDN]

What is the certification? Ie, GIA, AGS, EGL?

It's hard to say without knowing more about the cut of the stone. Generally recommendations are to stick with very reputable on-line vendors as you will get quality without over paying. Many really want to see the diamond before purchasing. The on-line vendors most recommend on PS have 30 day return policies.

You can search brick and mortar vs online vendors or some variation of that in the search bar and lots of info will come up and maybe help you.

I'm wondering if you were to cancel your order before the stone is set, maybe the setting can be refunded as well?

Doesn't mean you're overpaying, but I usually say listen to your gut. If you feel you are being taken advantage of, you very well may be. You want this process to be a positive experience too!

 

[danielxlin]

Yeah, you're paying far too much. You should easily be able to find a 0.71 carat GIA H color, SI2, GIA triple excellent for around $2100.

Taking into account that IGI, which certifies the "Echo" stone, is far looser in grading than GIA, you might currently own what would be a GIA graded I color, I1, in a fair cut.

You might have paid $3500 for a $1500 stone.

Return immediately. You can do magnificent things with a $5K ring budget.

P.S. Online shopping isn't mandatory. There are plenty of great independent local jewelry stores, depending on where you live. Avoiding chain stores is mandatory.

 

[pfunk]

I am guessing that this Echo cut diamond has been issued an IGI grading report as opposed to a GIA report? I wouldn't be all that confident in the color accuracy, and the clarity may be off as well. You can definitely get better pricing online, but if you are set on buying in person and on the Echo cut, Robbins is the only place you'll find it so it is hard to do any sort of price comparisons.

 

[yssie]

I must say, I appreciate Robbins Brothers' willingness to post the wireframe for the design... you might not believe how difficult it can be to find information like that about some proprietary cuts!
98 facets - http://www.robbinsbrothers.com/Echo-Diamonds.ring

To answer your question... it really depends on what you want.

Fact: You are paying far more for your stone than you would buying a well-cut "traditional" RB of the same size/colour/clarity.

Fact: The stone you're paying more for is far more unique than a "traditional" RB - and for many people that makes it more special.

Fact: A diamond of a certain size has a certain pre-determined surface area; breaking that surface area up into more facets means that the average facet size is smaller. Given the same area of diamond, numerous small facets will showcase less-intense (less bright) but faster sizzles of white light (rock the stone and it'll look like it's twinkling at you); fewer larger facets will feature slower, bolder, brighter flashes, and you'll see more coloured light. Different people will prefer different flavours of light return.

Fact: This particular design is interesting in that not only are there more facets, but the distribution of the extra facets is skewed toward the outer edges of the stone - much of the extra faceting is on/under the crown, vs. under the table. Compare this to 91-facet Solasfera rounds (http://www.solasfera.com/discover/unlike-any-other/shaped-for-beauty) which have 10 mains, breaking up the distribution of the extra facets more evenly around the stone. Distribution matters because under a certain facet size the human eye is incapable of discerning individual light outputs - it all just blurs together, and you see "sheen" instead of "point-source-sparkle"; concentrating more facets in a certain location means each facet is smaller, pushing more facets into that "can't visually appreciate it" territory.

Fact: PSers, as a collective, have little respect for non-PS vendors and brands, and PSers, as a collective, tend to be fanatical about their preferred vendors and brands. You are most definitely not going to get objective opinions on non-PS brand choices on here.

I'm personally not a fan of extra-facet RBs in the sub-2ct-ish range: I think stones under that size benefit from larger, not smaller, facets. If someone cut a 30-facet round I'd probably be all over it

Buying online is a personal choice. Where do you live?

 

[JDDN]

Yes, you can certainly find a great stone at an independent reputable jeweler. If you don't want to overpay for lesser quality, I personally would avoid a chain jewelry store though (what Daniel said).

If you are set on an Echo diamond, then you are probably limited to Robbins Brothers.

If you tell us what city you're located in, maybe someone can point you in the direction of some other options.

 

[kenny]

You said you are not comfortable buying online.
Then be prepared to overpay for inferior goods.

Sure, it's possible a brick and mortar store could carry an HCA=1.0 round brilliant with perfect Idealscope performance for the same price as good PS vendors.

But I'd say the odds that vendor is local to you is one in a billion.

Keep reading and learning about good cut and honest online vendors who are blowing B&Ms out of the water ... and for good reason.

At the top of this screen click on the tab for KNOWLEDGE, then on ADVANCED TUTORIAL.
That's a good start.
Learn about the HCA and Idealscope ... two tools that guarantee good cut for super light performance.

Yes, absolutely return that to Robbers Brothers.
Do a google search for RB threads on Pricescope.

 

[danielxlin]

You said you are not comfortable buying online.
Then be prepared to overpay for inferior goods.

Sure, it's possible a brick and mortar store could carry an HCA=1.0 round brilliant with perfect Idealscope performance for the same price as good PS vendors.

But I'd say the odds that vendor is local to you is one in a billion.

Keep reading and learning about good cut and honest online vendors who are blowing B&Ms out of the water ... and for good reason.

At the top of this screen click on the tab for KNOWLEDGE, then on ADVANCED TUTORIAL.
That's a good start.
Learn about the HCA and Idealscope ... two tools that guarantee good cut for super light performance.

Yes, absolutely return that to Robbers Brothers.
Do a google search for RB threads on Pricescope.

A lot of the best PS vendors are B&M's themselves. Good Old Gold etc.

If OP is in driving distance of NYC, Dallas, Los Angeles, or Boise, Idaho he will be able to inspect the goods before purchase.

 

[Gypsy]

Can you go to Houston?

We have two great jewelers there.

And yes, by all means, return that.

 

[kenny]

Can you go to Houston?

We have two great jewelers there.

... and they are www.whiteflash.com and www.briangavindiamonds.com
They are B&M and online.

Another superlative online vendor with a B&M store is www.goodoldgold.com not far from NY NY.

I suspect all 3 of these vendors make the majority of their $$ online since the web can reach 7 billion people not just, oh, maybe a million locals.

 

[heididdl]

Yeah, you're paying far too much. You should easily be able to find a 0.71 carat GIA H color, SI2, GIA triple excellent for around $2100.

Taking into account that IGI, which certifies the "Echo" stone, is far looser in grading than GIA, you might currently own what would be a GIA graded I color, I1, in a fair cut.

You might have paid $3500 for a $1500 stone.

Return immediately. You can do magnificent things with a $5K ring budget.

P.S. Online shopping isn't mandatory. There are plenty of great independent local jewelry stores, depending on where you live. Avoiding chain stores is mandatory.

DITTO

 

[MollyMalone]

* * * Taking into account that IGI, which certifies the "Echo" stone, is far looser in grading than GIA, you might currently own what would be a GIA graded I color, I1, in a fair cut.
You might have paid $3500 for a $1500 stone.
Return immediately. You can do magnificent things with a $5K ring budget. * * *.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: consumer PSers' unqualified damnation of IGI lab reports for loose stones is unwarranted. It's simply not true that IGI is notorious amongst those actually in the know (including my late father-in-law, who was a NYC diamond broker for much of his professional life) for very lax grading of loose diamonds. See, e.g., responses of Trade members in this 2012 thread:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/igi-grading-system.182725/

and these December 2014 comments from John Pollard, the US Executive for Crafted by Infinity & formerly the Director of Education for Whiteflash:
https://www.pricescope.com/author/john-pollard
In the global picture IGI loose diamond reports are reputable. The negative sentiment in the USA has been arrived-at based on the "finished jewelry appraisal-reports" which are famously misused by salespeople to demonstrate what a "bargain" a piece is. Only the USA lab issues those, by the way. None of the other IGI Worldwide locations do it.

The IGI Antwerp lab has a strong history in Europe. IGI Mumbai is well respected and IGI Hong Kong has a top reputation in Asia.
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...ork-reorganizes.208588/#post-3795089#p3795089

As Yssie observed above, if you have your heart set on an Echo cut, you have no choice but to purchase it from Robbins Brothers (or in the second-hand marketplace) and pay the attendant price -- as do those who treasure Tiffany's patented Lucida cuts or lust after Good Old Gold's August Vintage cuts. But it doesn't seem that you have involved your future wife, who is the one who will be wearing this ring daily in the years to come -- and it may be that the Echo cut would be "lost" on her, that she would prefer the larger, high caliber stone you could purchase for the same $3500. Unless the element of complete surprise is of great importance to her, how about bringing her into the selection decision?

P.S. On their web site, Robbins Brothers says that all of their Echo diamonds come with an ImaGem report. ImaGem - which assesses a diamond's light performance -- was developed by David Atlas, a gemologist & independent appraiser who is a well regarded Trade member of the PS community, posts here as Old Miner. By any chance, were you shown the ImaGem report for this particular Echo diamond?

 

[danielxlin]

John Pollard is one voice, there are other diamond professionals who have come out against lax grading standards at IGI. I suggest a simple Google search of "IGI vs GIA."

Regardless of who is actually right the reality is that IGI graded diamonds will have more trouble selling in the US market than a GIA graded diamond. Just try re-selling that IGI diamond on the second hand market and see what happens. Reputations take a long time to repair.

 

[yssie]

* * * Taking into account that IGI, which certifies the "Echo" stone, is far looser in grading than GIA, you might currently own what would be a GIA graded I color, I1, in a fair cut.
You might have paid $3500 for a $1500 stone.
Return immediately. You can do magnificent things with a $5K ring budget. * * *.

I've said it before, I'll say it again: consumer PSers' unqualified damnation of IGI lab reports for loose stones is unwarranted. It's simply not true that IGI is notorious amongst those actually in the know (including my late father-in-law, who was a NYC diamond broker for much of his professional life) for very lax grading of loose diamonds. See, e.g., responses of Trade members in this 2012 thread:
https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/igi-grading-system.182725/

and these December 2014 comments from John Pollard, the US Executive for Crafted by Infinity & formerly the Director of Education for Whiteflash:
https://www.pricescope.com/author/john-pollard
In the global picture IGI loose diamond reports are reputable. The negative sentiment in the USA has been arrived-at based on the "finished jewelry appraisal-reports" which are famously misused by salespeople to demonstrate what a "bargain" a piece is. Only the USA lab issues those, by the way. None of the other IGI Worldwide locations do it.

The IGI Antwerp lab has a strong history in Europe. IGI Mumbai is well respected and IGI Hong Kong has a top reputation in Asia.
https://www.pricescope.com/communit...ork-reorganizes.208588/#post-3795089#p3795089

As Yssie observed above, if you have your heart set on an Echo cut, you have no choice but to purchase it from Robbins Brothers (or in the second-hand marketplace) and pay the attendant price -- as do those who treasure Tiffany's patented Lucida cuts or lust after Good Old Gold's August Vintage cuts. But it doesn't seem that you have involved your future wife, who is the one who will be wearing this ring daily in the years to come -- and it may be that the Echo cut would be "lost" on her, that she would prefer the larger, high caliber stone you could purchase for the same $3500. Unless the element of complete surprise is of great importance to her, how about bringing her into the selection decision?

P.S. On their web site, Robbins Brothers says that all of their Echo diamonds come with an ImaGem report. ImaGem - which assesses a diamond's light performance -- was developed by David Atlas, a gemologist & independent appraiser who is a well regarded Trade member of the PS community, posts here as Old Miner. By any chance, were you shown the ImaGem report for this particular Echo diamond?

Thank you Molly.

You said everything I wanted to say re. IGI's reputation with far more poise than my rambling would have exhibited. There are far too many "facts" that are mindlessly parroted by PS generation after PS generation - nuggets of information that are important and relevant, most certainly, but that have been repeated without the context in which they were originally presented so many times that those who are now doing the repeating most likely don't even realise that much of the story is missing.

A PriceScoper's window to the US secondary market does not IGI's international (or, frankly, domestic) reputation make. The value of the IGI brief for set stones that is only issued here in the US is a different (and in this case irrelevant) debate.

OP, I agree with everything else Molly said regarding your choices as well.

 

[danielxlin]

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-isnt-igi-and-egl-reputable.145897/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/why-isnt-igi-and-egl-reputable.145897/[/URL]

Mindless parroting? Unqualified damnation by uninformed consumer PS-ers?

Wink: "I am constantly hearing that both IGI and EGL USA are straightening up their acts, and I hope that this is true, but I will be putting on my 'I am from Missouri' face and wanting them to 'show me' before I will believe it.

I am told by John Pollard that when he was speaking in China over the past couple of years that he was impressed with the quality of the IGI reports there and that in fact in China and the Far East that IGI is one of the first tier labs. I look forward to the day when the US office decides to play nice and start acting the same as the Chinese office."

Old Miner: "It is my belief that most everyone agrees that some IGI and some EGL paperwork is liberal compared to AGSL or GIA. It is not a 100% of the time thing, but it is a trend that is quite apparent to dealers as certs from secondary labs lead to routine discounting of the diamonds just as if they had lower grades from GIA or AGSL. It fools no one in the trade, but it does work magic for some sellers who claim all papers are the same and then fool the unsuspecting consumer into a false belief in Santa or the tooth fairy. Sellers may claim ignorance of the truth, but I just sort of doubt they are all so uninformed. They push off the mis-grading as the responsibility of the lab and just claim they don''t know how to exactly grade diamonds. That might be true for some of them, but surely it is not 100% true for all of them. Some know exactly what they are doing and they are doing it to make money, plain and simple. These dishonest sellers steal good sales from honest merchants and because so few ever get cought it becomes ever more tempting for sellers to follow the lead of those who don''t care and feel they will never get caught.

IGI and EGL are totally capable of grading to exacting GIA standards. However, the market for diamond grading is larger for a bit more liberal graded diamonds and money drives the demand for slightly weaker reports. It does not have ill effect on the diamond itself. Some of the very best values are graded by secondary labs including IGI and EGL. When we did a study on this some years ago that was one of our conclusions. Knowledge and good shopping are key to doing well with a purchase. The paperwork is a shortcut sometimes, but it is not a perfect situation. Simply stated, not all labs and not all grading systems used by labs are identical even though they may appear to be identical. It is confusing, but probably not illegal."

 

[danielxlin]

[URL='https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-igi-really-that-bad.128091/']https://www.pricescope.com/community/threads/is-igi-really-that-bad.128091/[/URL]

James Allen Schultz: "IGI grading for color and clarity is less stringent than GIA or AGS, so the pricing of these diamonds has been discounted to reflect those softer standards. It is our opinion that IGI diamonds still represent a good value, even after consideration of the grading differences. One of our gemologists can inspect any IGI diamond and share our opinion of how the diamond might have been graded by GIA, but this analysis can only take place after the order is placed and the diamond is shipped to our New York office for inspection."

Rock Diamond of Diamonds by Lauren: "Why I say that IGI is that bad is that many, if not most of the places selling these misgraded stones know they are not graded correctly, but conveniently forget to tell the buyers this fact.
The grading inconsistencies of these non GIA labs is not linear. In other words, there's no formula to figure out if it's a good deal.

For those who need to sell a diamond, the IGI report is again worthless- where a GIA report might help a far better recovery of funds in the event a consumer needs to sell the diamond."

John Pollard's stance is to defend IGI international labs: "While I agree with the comments about IGI''s softer standards in the USA . . . the IGI loose diamond reports generated in Mumbai and Hong Kong are considered as strict, and in some cases more consistent, than other local options."

 

[yssie]

Yeah, you're paying far too much. You should easily be able to find a 0.71 carat GIA H color, SI2, GIA triple excellent for around $2100.

Taking into account that IGI, which certifies the "Echo" stone, is far looser in grading than GIA, you might currently own what would be a GIA graded I color, I1, in a fair cut.

He did not set out to buy a 0.71 H, SI2, EX/EX/EX stone. He has purchased an Echo diamond - a branded design. Any direct comparison of cost that ignores this fact is sidestepping the most important piece of the discussion. If he wants an Echo diamond with a GIA report his only option is to buy and submit to GIA for clarity and colour evaluation; neither GIA nor AGSL would even issue a cut grade for this modified RB faceting so the assertion that his stone could be of "fair" cut is meaningless - it is whatever cut grade his IGI report states it is, and there is no standard or metric for comparison to other labs.

(AGS will issue proprietary reports for branded stones - Ritani had a scintillation report at on point, I believe, perhaps this is still issued...).

Secondary market value will be dictated primarily by brand (Echo) and specs (carat/colour/clarity) within the ecosystem Echo has defined in, and which authority issued the report is all but irrelevant given that Echo diamonds are only sent to IGI.


If he was looking to buy a traditional RB PS advice would have mirrored yours: choose a diamond with a GIA or AGSL report if you're buying in the US. This quote you posted is the reason for that:

Rock Diamond of Diamonds by Lauren: The grading inconsistencies of these non GIA labs is not linear. In other words, there's no formula to figure out if it's a good deal.

The blanket statement that he should avoid the entire brand - regardless of whether he likes the way the stones look or not - because of the grading authority they've chosen is tossing the baby out with the bath water.

 

[azstonie]

In my experiences as a consumer/client, if I start getting a feeling of being taken advantage of I put a stick in the wheel and go elsewhere. This outfit has caused you some stress and you haven't had a wonderful time buying this sentimental purchase. Explain to the store manager that you're unhappy and you need to stop this process until you feel confident in the purchase and the relationship and if they are a jeweler of integrity, they'll refund your money and wish you well.

 

[jsmith85]

My vote is to avoid working with Robbins Brothers, and it has nothing to do with the diamond you want. I had a pretty poor experience with them from a customer responsiveness standpoint while looking for an engagement ring, and would recommend you go elsewhere.

Slow response times, poor sales rep knowledge, limited selection (from a diamond point of view), and quite a few fees that aren't typical. The better business bureau and yelp reviews seem to agree with me as well. I would even go so far as to say buy the diamond only from them if you love the diamond, and get it set somewhere else.

I will say, however, that my experience may be in the minority. The do have an overall positive rating on Yelp, although it's a C- on the BBB.

 

[rrrppp]

OP responds! yay! Thanks for all the responses.

So, I have been sitting, waiting for about a month until the ring is ready. It will be ready for pickup tomorrow. I live around the Seattle area. I did not know that Echo diamonds were not GIA certified. I recall when I first went in, they had a grading report, but it must not have been GIA. Anyway, the Echo diamond was just the one that my GF like best when we stopped in the one time we went. There was a "top 3" and she like the Echo diamond the best. In all honesty, this process hasn't been as fun as I thought, it was when me and my GF were shopping and everything. But, once the time came to actually purchase the ring and go through that process, I felt rushed by Robbins, misled, and just have a general bad taste in my mouth. I will likely still get the ring since my GF loved it and that is what matters, but I will likely not be recommending anyone else go there nor be making any future purchases there. They could have resolved this with a little more customer service and maybe got a lifetime customer. Oh well. I hope the finish product looks nice!

 

[heididdl]

OP responds! yay! Thanks for all the responses.

So, I have been sitting, waiting for about a month until the ring is ready. It will be ready for pickup tomorrow. I live around the Seattle area. I did not know that Echo diamonds were not GIA certified. I recall when I first went in, they had a grading report, but it must not have been GIA. Anyway, the Echo diamond was just the one that my GF like best when we stopped in the one time we went. There was a "top 3" and she like the Echo diamond the best. In all honesty, this process hasn't been as fun as I thought, it was when me and my GF were shopping and everything. But, once the time came to actually purchase the ring and go through that process, I felt rushed by Robbins, misled, and just have a general bad taste in my mouth. I will likely still get the ring since my GF loved it and that is what matters, but I will likely not be recommending anyone else go there nor be making any future purchases there. They could have resolved this with a little more customer service and maybe got a lifetime customer. Oh well. I hope the finish product looks nice!

Well if nice is what you want her to wear for the rest of your lives together. Then nice is what I guess she is getting.