Am I being sold duds?

[Gav]

So I have been suggested a couple of alternative stones by a local dealer in my search for a stone that are currently in my price range. I’ve been told these are fantastic in particular the E colour.

However From my reading and learning on this site I get this feeling these will be poor light performing diamonds and not worth considering further - would my interpretation be accurate?

1.3 G weird table and depth proportion but seems to have a HCA below 2



e colour 1.34 with really steep pavilion of 41.4 giving HCA above 5. Images of stone also attached

 

[OoohShiny]

First is a 60/60 style with a lower crown angle, so will major on white light return rather than coloured fire.

The second is just a 'No'.


What is your budget and required/desired colour/clarity/carat size? We can help you find better options online.

 

[Lykame]

I don't like either of those stones at all. I suspect ASETs would only confirm my feelings. The first has a shallow crown angle and is likely to look grey. The second I feel you can see from the photo how leaky it is under the table, let alone if you obtained formal proof of that from an idealscope or ASET... and not only that, but that's also suggested by the pants HCA. I know it's a GIA excellent but still. I'm unconvinced. Furthermore! It's an E with strong blue fluorescence. Although some people really like fluorescence, you have to see the stone in person to know how you feel about it in all lighting conditions. Finally, they have the potential to be really difficult stones to move on if you ever wanted to do that in the future and were not covered by some sort of sensible upgrade policy.

I am happy to stand corrected by the multiple people on this forum who are significantly more knowledgeable than me!

@Gav, you're now nicely aware of all the percents and angles that you need to ask for to try and weed out some good stones:

Depth 60-62.3%
Table 54-58%
Crown angles 34-35 (up to 35.5 can sometimes work with a 40.6 pavillion angle)
Pavillion angle 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41 if the crown angle is close to 34).

Again even if you find stones with these angles, a GIA certificate contains averages so you ideally need more information beyond that, but it's at least a good starting point.

Why can't you share those angles with your jeweller (whom I believe you're a bit tied into) so he can start showing you stones that are actually worth your time? Hopefully it will help narrow your selection.

Finally, just as a random thought: I would be interested if, when you do get to see a selection of stones in person, you could also ask to see the two stones above. It would be an interesting experiment in general to see what you thought of their light performance compared to stones that were sitting within what is considered more 'ideal' angles.

 

[butters88]

Gav, where abouts in Aus are you mate? I just bought from a jeweler in Aus who was able to get a full ring made up cheaper than I could find online once taxes etc were taken into account.

 

[sledge]

Others covered the stones already.

Being an Aussie have you found Holloway Diamonds yet? He is there and Gary is the father of the idealscope, and also participates in this forum. He should be able to help guide and select fantastic diamonds if you insist on working locally.

Also, if you are open to online experiences, let us know your diamond wish list and we can help you.

 

[Gav]

Gav, where abouts in Aus are you mate? I just bought from a jeweler in Aus who was able to get a full ring made up cheaper than I could find online once taxes etc were taken into account.

I’m in Sydney - where would you recommend

 

[Gav]

Others covered the stones already.

Being an Aussie have you found Holloway Diamonds yet? He is there and Gary is the father of the idealscope, and also participates in this forum. He should be able to help guide and select fantastic diamonds if you insist on working locally.

Also, if you are open to online experiences, let us know your diamond wish list and we can help you.

Ah I didn’t know. Where is he based?

 

[Gav]

I don't like either of those stones at all. I suspect ASETs would only confirm my feelings. The first has a shallow crown angle and is likely to look grey. The second I feel you can see from the photo how leaky it is under the table, let alone if you obtained formal proof of that from an idealscope or ASET... and not only that, but that's also suggested by the pants HCA. I know it's a GIA excellent but still. I'm unconvinced. Furthermore! It's an E with strong blue fluorescence. Although some people really like fluorescence, you have to see the stone in person to know how you feel about it in all lighting conditions. Finally, they have the potential to be really difficult stones to move on if you ever wanted to do that in the future and were not covered by some sort of sensible upgrade policy.

I am happy to stand corrected by the multiple people on this forum who are significantly more knowledgeable than me!

@Gav, you're now nicely aware of all the percents and angles that you need to ask for to try and weed out some good stones:

Depth 60-62.3%
Table 54-58%
Crown angles 34-35 (up to 35.5 can sometimes work with a 40.6 pavillion angle)
Pavillion angle 40.6-40.9 (sometimes 41 if the crown angle is close to 34).

Again even if you find stones with these angles, a GIA certificate contains averages so you ideally need more information beyond that, but it's at least a good starting point.

Why can't you share those angles with your jeweller (whom I believe you're a bit tied into) so he can start showing you stones that are actually worth your time? Hopefully it will help narrow your selection.

Finally, just as a random thought: I would be interested if, when you do get to see a selection of stones in person, you could also ask to see the two stones above. It would be an interesting experiment in general to see what you thought of their light performance compared to stones that were sitting within what is considered more 'ideal' angles.

Thankyou . The dealer sourced stones from an overseas supplier - half the time I’m not even getting videos or other images.

the 60 pavilion angle gave a really good hca score but the angles confused me..

 

[rockysalamander]

Halloway Diamonds is located at 1/54 Church St, Brighton VIC 3186, Australia. That's about a 9 hour drive, from memory. But, he has an online site and we can help you provide an initial list of interest to him. He can also help you directly.

 

[david b]

An E color will never look Grey! It will look snow white!!
E and Strong Blue is a big "NO"Slight or Faint is ok.
An Excellent cut of GIA is good enough for the average person, If it doesnot cost more check the light performance.

 

[david b]

It really add somnething to the diamond performance but is not worth significantly higher price

 

[OoohShiny]

the 60 pavilion angle gave a really good hca score but the angles confused me..

The HCA tool assess whether the angles complement each other, therefore will return light well - AIUI it is possible for a very high crown and shallow pavilion to get a good HCA score because the angles work, but it may not be attractive to the eye, for example!

An E color will never look Grey! It will look snow white!!
E and Strong Blue is a big "NO"Slight or Faint is ok.
An Excellent cut of GIA is good enough for the average person, If it doesnot cost more check the light performance.

Is this is your opinion?

Or is this an empirical fact?

 

[whitewave]

I suggest garry and tell him you are on pricescope.

 

[sledge]

An Excellent cut of GIA is good enough for the average person, If it doesnot cost more check the light performance.

I agree to disagree on this point.

Given the way GIA averages and rounds up values, an "excellent" cut stone can easily fall outside the criteria of excellent, and many average Joe's may not be able to explain WHY it happens, but they can likely see it.

Take the diamonds at hand for example. Both the 60/60 and other stone technically hit the excellent category if all values were perfect as the GIA report implies. But we know how GIA actually averages and rounds up values shown on their reports so I drew a box around an area where the cut could potentially fall.

You will notice there is a very good (VG) category in each one. The latter diamond has more probability of being a lesser well cut stone. But we knew that already by the 41.4 PA reported. The charts are just confirming this data.

If ASET and IS images were provided on this stone, I think those too will confirm we are dealing with a stone that has some issues. Rather or not those are issues the buyer can live with is an entirely different story. But to assume the OP can't discern the difference and that "average" is okay because it's excellent cut (according to GIA) is not an acceptable answer, at least to me.

60/60 stone


34.5 CA / 41.4 PA stone

 

[sledge]

This might also be of interest as it gets into more of the nitty and gritty of why cut is so important, while keeping it on a consumer based level of understanding.

In particular they compare AGS 000 stones to GIA XXX stones.

https://www.whiteflash.com/about-diamonds/diamond-education/diamond-fire-1568.htm

 

[whitewave]

I do think the average person accepts less, but that is mostly because IMO the process of buying diamonds had traditionally been mostly an unknown/uneducated experience.

With the explosion of the internet, people like gav have come here to learn how to make the best purchases for them.

In my city, small diamond cluster rings placed together to look like a larger ring as well as clarity enhanced diamonds are what the average person buys. So GIA excellent is likely perfectly fine for them. Heck, one stone is a step up.

But anyone who lands here at PS IMO did so because they wanted to learn more. How much higher they go up is individual.

I have come to love super ideals because it is SO MUCH EASIER in that you just pick one. Done. 5 minute diamond selecting; no analysis paralysis. I also love the edge to edge fire.

So it’s all based on what the person wants.

 

[ringo865]

Thankyou . The dealer sourced stones from an overseas supplier - half the time I’m not even getting videos or other images.

Fav, the people on here use the same virtual diamond inventory your guy is using. With your budget and specs, we can point you to stones that he can call in for you (or forget him and buy from any of the PS approved vendors also offering the same stone).

 

[whitewave]

Here is an example:
1.23 G eye clean SI1
$9523 wire price
Super ideal ACA

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970286.htm

 

[Gav]

Thanks all and particularly sledge for giving me
this new insight..Yes I have been using these crown pavilion angle tables religiously since learning about them but have to date assumed that GIA numbers falling into a box would be accurate..clearly there is a potential for deviation with GIAs rounded numbers that could push it into a competly different and also sub par grade...5!8: is something I was compeletly unaware of!

Also thanks, I would like to think I’m a bit more than the average joe .... maybe a very curious joe who wants the best diamond They can afford for their partner because she is certainly no average Sheila!!

I’ve been reading widely and watching YouTube videos before joining PS and met talked with a number of local dealers but there has been so much information (sometimes conflicting out there). This forum does clear a lot of my misconceptions and confusion but more so I’ve gained a lot of new knowledge simply from reading the posts in this forum, and the very much valued opinions of the members responding to my threads!

 

[sledge]

Here is an example:
1.23 G eye clean SI1
$9523 wire price
Super ideal ACA

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3970286.htm

In total agreement about the super ideal part. On this particular stone, I'd have WF gemologist pull and confirm eye clean. The cert shows quite a few inclusions on the table which concern me. But my eyes tend to be more picky than some.

FYI, this is a good time to talk about "eye clean". WF defines it as no inclusions 10" away looking at the top of the diamond only. Picky people like me use their own definitions. For instance I said 6" on top & sides.

Also I suffer from "mind clean" issues. And I hope you don't, lol. So while I was open to clean SI1's, I was very happy to end up with a clean VS2 for my girl.

All this said, Gav has another thread or two and IIRC he might have put down a deposit with his local jeweler, so he might be tied to him unless he can get the deposit back or be willing to eat the cost of the deposit (not sure how much) if the "perfect" stone comes along.

 

[whitewave]

Ah! @sledge I didn’t catch that about the deposit.

My”mind clean” issues are not clarity but color. I’ll take (and did buy) an Eye clean SI2 from High performance diamonds/crafted by infinity, but it is a G color. I want to learn to like K/L and more, but for right now, tint bothers me.

So give me a F, Eye clean I1 and I am happy! My original engagement ring is a D-I1 and it never bothered me.

Again, it depends on the person and the cultural thing, if there is one.

I see inclusions as personality and, yes, even charm lol.

 

[sledge]

Thanks all and particularly sledge for giving me
this new insight..Yes I have been using these crown pavilion angle tables religiously since learning about them but have to date assumed that GIA numbers falling into a box would be accurate..clearly there is a potential for deviation with GIAs rounded numbers that could push it into a competly different and also sub par grade...5!8: is something I was compeletly unaware of!

Also thanks, I would like to think I’m a bit more than the average joe .... maybe a very curious joe who wants the best diamond They can afford for their partner because she is certainly no average Sheila!!

I’ve been reading widely and watching YouTube videos before joining PS and met talked with a number of local dealers but there has been so much information (sometimes conflicting out there). This forum does clear a lot of my misconceptions and confusion but more so I’ve gained a lot of new knowledge simply from reading the posts in this forum, and the very much valued opinions of the members responding to my threads!

In my books, you are here so you are definitely above average. Always keep moving and learning!

Whichever direction you decide to go, we will help you to the best of our abilities.

 

[ringo865]

If you can't get your deposit back, use it toward a gold necklace or earrings (without diamonds) and break up with him.

 

[sledge]

If you can't get your deposit back, use it toward a gold necklace or earrings (without diamonds) and break up with him.

Yeah, a nice gold necklace. Get one to let your girl know who the champ is.

 

[ringo865]

Ermergerd @sledge ! I nearly spewed my coffee. Love the chest lettuce

 

[Gussie]

Yeah, a nice gold necklace. Get one to let your girl know who the champ is.

And if this pic doesn't scare you, not much will, lol!!!!

 

[OoohShiny]

Ermergerd @sledge ! I nearly spewed my coffee. Love the chest lettuce

If Kenny is around, this will be much to his liking lol

 

[WinkHPD]

An Excellent cut of GIA is good enough for the average person.

With respect for a fellow professional, I very much disagree.

Close to 70% of round brilliants sent through GIA receive their Excellent cut grade. Over half are Triple-Excellent. This includes proportions sets which can get penalized all the way down to AGS 5 (in the AGS platinum system) due to reduced brilliance. Most of them land somewhere between AGS 2-4. Bright jewelry store lights can mask this, but once you compare the average EX to a really well cut diamond in normal and low lighting the difference becomes obvious. In my experience even the average person sees and appreciates those differences.

Wink

 

[sledge]

Ermergerd @sledge ! I nearly spewed my coffee. Love the chest lettuce

And if this pic doesn't scare you, not much will, lol!!!!

If Kenny is around, this will be much to his liking lol

I've heard lots of slang that would make sailors blush, but "chest lettuce" is new.

LOL, glad you all enjoyed that. I was originally searching for that 80's mobster look on Google and then it occurred to me the search string history and how that may appear to others that would potentially be snooping.

About that time, I saw the above and said, "oh yeah, this is the one".

 

[whitewave]

With respect for a fellow professional, I very much disagree.

Close to 70% of round brilliants sent through GIA receive their Excellent cut grade. Over half are Triple-Excellent. This includes proportions sets which can get penalized all the way down to AGS 5 (in the AGS platinum system) due to reduced brilliance. Most of them land somewhere between AGS 2-4. Bright jewelry store lights can mask this, but once you compare the average EX to a really well cut diamond in normal and low lighting the difference becomes obvious. In my experience even the average person sees and appreciates those differences.

Wink

Also, anyone who posts on PS is not average lol.