Advice- Stone exchange

[Md123456789]

Hi all- if anyone has been following my threads, you will see my fiance and i have quite a few issues with my engagement ring since purchase in November.

I have reset my ring and now want to pursue exchanging my stone with the jeweler who sold it to us. My fiancé was not very educated on diamonds when purchasing and it was a surprise engagement so I didn't have any input. He didn't see any stones or even the certificate of my diamond before purchasing as he purchase it through a friend's father. Unfortunately, we are both disappointed with the stone. Here is a link to the AGS report:

http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104048013002-PDQRK.PDF

Our biggest issues are that the spread is really that of 1.5 carat stone and the cut is very poor. We want to pursue a trade in with the jeweler as we have seen many ideal cut stones at carat weights starting at 1.7 for similar prices to what he paid.

Our jeweler has a liberal upgrade policy with my dollar minimum but we really aren't looking for a true upgrade. In fact, we would be happy with an ideal cut stone of lower carat weight with a larger table.

Any advice on how to pursue this??

 

[farmer gal]

You could call Brian Gavin about a recut, there has been some great results with his recuts.
http://www.briangavindiamonds.com/

 

[Md123456789]

P.s. my fiancé also had no idea about the strong fluorescence of my stone and is upset about not at least knowing about t before buying. Frankly, it doesnt bother me at all and I would actively shop for another I color with flourescence if I could.

 

[Md123456789]

We aren't interested in further investing in this stone and from what I understand, there wouldn't really be a way to recut it with a larger table but thank you!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I want to help you with terminology so you ask for the right thing! The stone you have has a huge table at 62.9%! The table is the flat part on the very top of the stone. The faceted part around the table is the crown. Your stone is too deep, and that makes it face up smaller than it should. That means the diameter of your stone is smaller than it would be if it was within ideal cut parameters.

Aside from asking for AGS Ideal cut which is a start, we can give you a few measurements to help you try to get a well cut stone. You want to get a stone with a cut grade, not like the one you have. AGS Excellent can be fine, especially if symmetry is ideal and polish is excellent. GIA triple excellent stones can be good as well. But watch for these numbers on your report where the graph of the stone is:

Table: 54-58%

Depth: 60-62.3% (although I prefer 62.0 or less since you may get better diameter/spread)

Crown angle: 34.0-35.0

Pavilion angle: 40.6-41.0

girdle: thin, medium, or slightly thick


Just so you know where to find these numbers, I'll tell you the ones on your current stone:

Table: 62.9%

Depth: 64.5%

Crown angle: 35.7

Pav Angle: 41.2

girdle: slightly thick to extremely thick

As you have already figured out, you do have a poorly cut stone. A 1.6 ct. stone faces up around the same diameter as your current stone. So I would focus on stones in the 1.6-1.7 range that are ideal cut, or excellent cut with the numbers all falling in the ranges above. If you are offered some choices, please come back here and post the reports or numbers before you do the trade and we can help you be sure you are getting a great diamond this time! Thank goodness you have a trade-in policy!

 

[slg47]

I would get your jeweler to call in some AGS ideal cuts.

 

[swingirl]

Just my 2 cents. I am guessing that your jeweler is not going to exchange your poor cut stone with an ideal/excellent cut of the same size. So you will end up with a smaller diamond if you are able to find one that meets the criteria for a AGS ideal cut. I had a stone like yours that I got recut. It was too deep and had an extremely thick girdle. It was a good contender for a recut because the thick girdle was hiding a lot of depth that was used to reform the stone, thus reducing the size of the table. It cost several hundred dollars.

Of course, the cutter needs to assess the stone and come up with where they think the final size will be. But don't discount the idea while you work with your current jeweler. Considering this is the stone the jeweler sold to a "friend of a friend", I wonder if this is the typical quality that he sells or if your DF requested a larger size on a tight budget.

 

[Md123456789]

Basically, I'm most concerned with cut then the diameter and the color. I have seen a lot of 1.7 carat stones with diameters of 7.8 and 7.9 that I think I would prefer. I live in NYC and it might sound superficial but I feel like my diamond looks small. Unfortunately, the jeweler is in St. Louis so I worry he won't have as many options. They do specialize in AGS stones so I am hoping I can have them call some in. We will see next week when my fiancé calls. Clearly, he was more concerned with carat weight when he purchased because he didn't realize that a 1.7 carat stone could actually have a bigger diameter.

Diamond seeker- thank you SO much for the information! I have been doing a ton of research and am overwhelmed. I will definitely come back to you with options if/when I have them.

 

[Dancing Fire]

Hi all- if anyone has been following my threads, you will see my fiance and i have quite a few issues with my engagement ring since purchase in November.

I have reset my ring and now want to pursue exchanging my stone with the jeweler who sold it to us. My fiancé was not very educated on diamonds when purchasing and it was a surprise engagement so I didn't have any input. He didn't see any stones or even the certificate of my diamond before purchasing as he purchase it through a friend's father. Unfortunately, we are both disappointed with the stone. Here is a link to the AGS report:

http://www.agslab.com/pdf_sync_reports/104048013002-PDQRK.PDF

rule #1...never to purchase a diamond from a friend's father or a friend's uncle or a friend of a friend.

 

[Md123456789]

Agreed. Unfortunatly, my fiance trusted him and we can't really do anything about it now. I wouldn't say we got a bad deal at all but I think that he should have driven him towards a 1.7 carat stone with a bigger spread knowing that visual size was important to us.

Does anyone have any advice on how to broach this with the jeweler? My fiance is planning to call him on Wednesday. They have a diamond search on their website but nothing is coming up within the parameters and price point I am looking for. Everything seems incredibly marked up. For example, they have a "virtual stone" listed that James Allen also has listed (same exact stone, same cert number) but for a 25% higher price tag.

Help!!

 

[MissGotRocks]

Online vendors work on very slim profit margins so it's no surprise that a B&M jeweler would have a markup like that on a stone. I would share your concerns about the stone with the jeweler and let him know what type of stone you are looking for. In terms of his pricing, there is not much we can do about that. Your other option would be to sell what you have outright or consign it, take the money and start again with someone else.

Hopefully, though, he'll work with you in finding a stone more to your liking!

 

[Dancing Fire]

Agreed. Unfortunatly, my fiance trusted him and we can't really do anything about it now. I wouldn't say we got a bad deal at all but I think that he should have driven him towards a 1.7 carat stone with a bigger spread knowing that visual size was important to us.

Does anyone have any advice on how to broach this with the jeweler? My fiance is planning to call him on Wednesday. They have a diamond search on their website but nothing is coming up within the parameters and price point I am looking for. Everything seems incredibly marked up. For example, they have a "virtual stone" listed that James Allen also has listed (same exact stone, same cert number) but for a 25% higher price tag.

Help!!

ask him if he can price match?

 

[Md123456789]

Update! Spoke to the jeweler today and he said he will work with us towards trade. Sent him my preferred specs this afternoon (thank you Diamond Seeker!) and will see what options he comes back with. I will update the thread with feedback!

 

[MissGotRocks]

Wonderful - good luck with options! Let us know what he suggests!

 

[Md123456789]

How can I tell if a stone I view online is a 'virtual stone'? If I find some with specs I like, can I suggest them to my jeweler? For example (although I know the measurements aren't great on this one, I like the spread):

www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2755199.htm

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I am glad he is willing to try to find you another diamond! I would suggest looking on James Allen for possible stones as they are owned by a diamond supplier and many of their stones are accessible to other PriceScope vendors. I obviously have no knowledge of what diamond suppliers your jeweler has access to, but I know James Allen stones are often posted on other virtual lists. I found my current stone on one vendor's virtual list, was able to see it's picture on James Allen, and I had Good Old Gold call it in and check it out for me, and I bought it from them.

The stone you linked is a little out of my personal comfort zone (especially because I wouldn't want a table as big as 61%), but that stone does have a good spread and is at least in the Excellent cut category. Just remember that stones with a larger spread can sometimes have a shallower crown angle and be more prone to chipping. So be absolutely certain you have good insurance coverage just in case! The blue fluorescence is a big plus in a J color stone, by the way!

 

[Md123456789]

Hi again!

Thanks for the feedback, Diamondseeker. My fiance is having a follow up convo with my jeweler tomorrow. Since I did see a stone that was listed on James Allen also listed on his website, I am wondering if this means he does in fact have access to these stones. So in the meantime, I have been searching their site for some options to be prepared.

I am having trouble finding stones that hit on all of the preferred measurements because I want such a large spread but have only been looking at ones under the Ideal/Excellent category. Here are some that I have found on JA:

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI1-Very Good-Cut-Round-Diamond-1441540.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1443728.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1388847.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Very Good-Cut-Round-Diamond-1457468.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-SI1-Very Good-Cut-Round-Diamond-1396627.asp
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Very Good-Cut-Round-Diamond-1385293.asp

I am trying to be patient but am getting very nervous!

Are "Very Good" cuts just not even worth considering? I found a couple with good spreads (although some of the inclusions look nuts!)

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI2-Very Good-Cut-Round-Diamond-1364479.asp

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1477757.asp

 

[Md123456789]

I found another that looks good besides the table and crown angle, if "eyeclean":

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-SI2-Very Good-Cut-Round-Diamond-1477503.asp

 

[Md123456789]

I love the spread of this one...

http://www.eternitydiamonds.com/diamond_detail.php?id=652877&ref=pricescope

 

[MissGotRocks]

I found another that looks good besides the table and crown angle, if "eyeclean":

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/H-SI2-Very Good-Cut-Round-Diamond-1477503.asp

But the table and crown angle are important when judging cut of a stone!

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I don't think you are going to get a really well cut stone with the spread you want. You have to get a really shallow stone to get that kind of spread and that comes at a cost of the light return of your diamond. Look at this chart which shows ideal cut on the left and then shows the problems with both deep and shallow cut stones:

https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-cut

I think you need to go down in color and just get a larger diamond that is ideal cut (and preferably with fluorescence) over trying to get one that is shallow and not as well cut to get spread.

 

[Md123456789]

Down in color from J?? That scares me..

 

[Md123456789]

Also- Some of these stones are graded 'ideal' so that is quite confusing to me. How are they grade ideal but also shallow? Wouldn't they not be considered ideal if that's the case?

 

[Dancing Fire]

I love the spread of this one...

http://www.eternitydiamonds.com/diamond_detail.php?id=652877&ref=pricescope

hmmm...an interesting stone,steep crown with a shallow pavil.

 

[Lula]

You do not need a shallow stone to get the spread you want. You may however want to look for a 60/60 stone that has a good crown and pavillion angle combination. For example, this stone that you linked may have potential (ignoring the inclusions for a moment):
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1477757.asp

A 60/60 stone has a large table that is very close to its depth; hence the term "60/60" for 60% table and 60% depth. Stones cut in this way can look very large for their carat weight. They can have crappy crown/pavilion angle combinations and have poor light return or they can have good crown/pavilion angle combinations and look very bright and white. The James Allen stone you linked above has decent angles, including longer lower girdle facets (85%), which, in my opinion, make it worth at least considering.

Compare the crown and pavilion and lower girdle facets of that stone to the other 60/60 type stone you linked. http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI2-Very Good-Cut-Round-Diamond-1364479.asp This stone has a very shallow pavilion angle at 40.2, and shorter lgfs (75%). It *may* look okay in person, but it may also look dull and dark.

So, it's important to consider the difference between a shallow stone (less than 59 or 60% in depth) and a shallow pavilion angle (40.6 and lower). All the angles have to work together.

This article explains how different angle combinations affect the appearance of the stone:
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/laboratory_cut_grades_what_report_doesn’t_show

 

[Md123456789]

You do not need a shallow stone to get the spread you want. You may however want to look for a 60/60 stone that has a good crown and pavillion angle combination. For example, this stone that you linked may have potential (ignoring the inclusions for a moment):
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1477757.asp

A 60/60 stone has a large table that is very close to its depth; hence the term "60/60" for 60% table and 60% depth. Stones cut in this way can look very large for their carat weight. They can have crappy crown/pavilion angle combinations and have poor light return or they can have good crown/pavilion angle combinations and look very bright and white. The James Allen stone you linked above has decent angles, including longer lower girdle facets (85%), which, in my opinion, make it worth at least considering.

Compare the crown and pavilion and lower girdle facets of that stone to the other 60/60 type stone you linked. http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI2-Very Good-Cut-Round-Diamond-1364479.asp This stone has a very shallow pavilion angle at 40.2, and shorter lgfs (75%). It *may* look okay in person, but it may also look dull and dark.

So, it's important to consider the difference between a shallow stone (less than 59 or 60% in depth) and a shallow pavilion angle (40.6 and lower). All the angles have to work together.

This article explains how different angle combinations affect the appearance of the stone:
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/laboratory_cut_grades_what_report_doesn’t_show

Really really interesting. As you can tell, I am overwhelmed! This stone seems like a good 60/60 candidate:

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Very%20Good-Cut-Round-Diamond-1385293.asp

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Really really interesting. As you can tell, I am overwhelmed! This stone seems like a good 60/60 candidate:

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Very%20Good-Cut-Round-Diamond-1385293.asp

This one has some possibility, but I suspect the reason it might not have sold is that it has crystals that appear to be right under the table. But it could be eyeclean, you just have to ask. You'd also need to have it examined in different lighting to be sure the strong fluorescence doesn't make the diamond appear hazy. It probably is fine since only a small number of fluor stones are negatively affected. I have one and mine is fine.

 

[Lula]

You do not need a shallow stone to get the spread you want. You may however want to look for a 60/60 stone that has a good crown and pavillion angle combination. For example, this stone that you linked may have potential (ignoring the inclusions for a moment):
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1477757.asp

A 60/60 stone has a large table that is very close to its depth; hence the term "60/60" for 60% table and 60% depth. Stones cut in this way can look very large for their carat weight. They can have crappy crown/pavilion angle combinations and have poor light return or they can have good crown/pavilion angle combinations and look very bright and white. The James Allen stone you linked above has decent angles, including longer lower girdle facets (85%), which, in my opinion, make it worth at least considering.

Compare the crown and pavilion and lower girdle facets of that stone to the other 60/60 type stone you linked. http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-SI2-Very Good-Cut-Round-Diamond-1364479.asp This stone has a very shallow pavilion angle at 40.2, and shorter lgfs (75%). It *may* look okay in person, but it may also look dull and dark.

So, it's important to consider the difference between a shallow stone (less than 59 or 60% in depth) and a shallow pavilion angle (40.6 and lower). All the angles have to work together.

This article explains how different angle combinations affect the appearance of the stone:
https://www.pricescope.com/journal/laboratory_cut_grades_what_report_doesn’t_show

Really really interesting. As you can tell, I am overwhelmed! This stone seems like a good 60/60 candidate:

http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/J-VS2-Very%20Good-Cut-Round-Diamond-1385293.asp

Yes, that's a 60/60 stone. Note how much bigger the diameter of this stone is compared to your stone. The proportions do make a difference!

 

[Md123456789]

I thought that vs2s are pretty safely eye clean? I currently have a strong flouro stone so I actually worry about NOT having it in a j or I colored stone.

So much to learn! Talking to the jeweler in the AM...

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I had a VS2 that had a black inclusion in it, but I could only see it from the sides. VS2 is usually eyeclean from the top, but you really have to ask to be sure when you see the inclusions easily in the magnified images. I am glad you are accepting of the SBF...I really love it! I definitely think that stone is worth looking at. Good luck tomorrow!