Advice needed on cloudy diamond...

[sledge]

I disagree wholeheartedly.

PS is a microcosm. It’s a microcosm of blind chart- and tool-happy fanaticism.

Doesn't score <2 on HCA? Garbage.
Doesn't fit EX/0 GIA and AGS proportions charts? Garbage.
Doesn't meet those wretched "cheat sheet" specs? Garbage.
Doesn't have big chunky symmetric facets? Garbage.

In reality, of course, much of this "garbage" is perfectly lovely. There is nothing above the proportions on this stone that should serve as a warning sign to anyone but followers of blind chart- and tool-happy fanaticism - by the numbers this could be a perfectly beautiful stone, and the inclusions could well have been nothing to write home about.

Diamonds are visual spectacles. They need to be bought using the eyes... and the eyes need to be trained a little to identify what they do and do not like. The report was never intended to be the primary medium of purchase - it was meant to supplement an in-person viewing. PS "blindness" is inevitable and understandable, as of course we don't have anything but photos and numbers to work with, but to suggest that our tools and charts and graphs and plots should take precedence over what the eyes appreciate is misleading at best, counterproductive at worst.

OP's FI failed to do his due diligence in this in-person viewing; I cannot find sympathy for anyone but OP in this situation. Hopefully her vendor will understand that what she is looking for is not what her FI was satisfied with originally.

I was sick at the time you wrote this and never felt like responding back. I'm better now but see the OP updated the thread to which you have responded and you didn't understand the dealer bringing in the stone didn't have a return policy.

I hope you can see why I was critical of the dealer. In the OP's initial thread I had caught that fact, and was disappointed the jeweler wouldn't advise the OP's fiancee of potential issues on a non-returnable stone. Even if you ignore the cut quality because frankly the buyer probably couldn't discern a difference, the clarity plots and notes tells a responsible jeweler there is likely clarity issues going on that an inexperienced buyer could see -- as confirmed by the OP.

Conveniently the other diamond got sold. And apparently there was only two diamonds in the world that met all criteria , so the jeweler proceeds to order the one that arrived and says there is no return policy.

All shady practices in my opinion. I wasn't there and don't know if any of this was done deceitfully or not but I do know if I owned & operated a diamond shop I would have advised my clients of the potential issues so there would be no misunderstandings or hard feelings like what has occurred. I'd like to think all jewelers would treat their customers in a similar fashion, but it's apparent that isn't the case.

 

[MamaBee]

I was sick at the time you wrote this and never felt like responding back. I'm better now but see the OP updated the thread to which you have responded and you didn't understand the dealer bringing in the stone didn't have a return policy.

I hope you can see why I was critical of the dealer. In the OP's initial thread I had caught that fact, and was disappointed the jeweler wouldn't advise the OP's fiancee of potential issues on a non-returnable stone. Even if you ignore the cut quality because frankly the buyer probably couldn't discern a difference, the clarity plots and notes tells a responsible jeweler there is likely clarity issues going on that an inexperienced buyer could see -- as confirmed by the OP.

Conveniently the other diamond got sold. And apparently there was only two diamonds in the world that met all criteria , so the jeweler proceeds to order the one that arrived and says there is no return policy.

All shady practices in my opinion. I wasn't there and don't know if any of this was done deceitfully or not but I do know if I owned & operated a diamond shop I would have advised my clients of the potential issues so there would be no misunderstandings or hard feelings like what has occurred. I'd like to think all jewelers would treat their customers in a similar fashion, but it's apparent that isn't the case.

I agree 100%! I hope you’re feeling better!

 

[HappyNewLife]

I'm so sorry your jeweler was such a jerk

I'd probably go a titch over budget for this sparkle bomb. You can always upgrade the color at another time. It's the right size for your setting:

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4092506.htm

 

[Rubymal]

I'm so sorry your jeweler was such a jerk

I'd probably go a titch over budget for this sparkle bomb. You can always upgrade the color at another time. It's the right size for your setting:

https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4092506.htm

Wow, that is really a sparkle bomb! Unfortunately, I am very color sensitive so it might drive me a little bonkers. And call me sentimental, but if I'd been wearing a diamond for years, I dont think I'd want to trade/upgrade it away. I'd become too attached!

 

[sledge]

Wow, that is really a sparkle bomb! Unfortunately, I am very color sensitive so it might drive me a little bonkers. And call me sentimental, but if I'd been wearing a diamond for years, I dont think I'd want to trade/upgrade it away. I'd become too attached!

Haha, that's what they all say. Then DSS sets in. Then next thing you know someone is posting pictures of their 4 carat rock.

 

[Rubymal]

Haha, that's what they all say. Then DSS sets in. Then next thing you know someone is posting pictures of their 4 carat rock.

Ahhh, now that you mention it, 4 carat does sound enticing

I know someone else had mentioned a while back that moral of the story is to buy a diamond with your own eyes. I completely agree! This might be hard to believe, but this is exactly what I told my fiance when I let loose the reins and told him to go on the search. I specifically told him, do not even consider a diamond that you cannot see with your own eyes first. If the seller doesn't allow it? No buy! (spoiler alert, he didn't listen to me).

We had also visited three other (different) jewelers in person and looked at diamonds that fit my specifications for the 4Cs. Little did I know- this actually contributed to the mistake. My fiance couldn't tell a potato from a rock, so of course, all the sparkly diamonds that the jewelers showed us in their stores were absolutely lively and brilliant. This lead my fiance to believe that -all- diamonds as long as they were in the parameters of our 4cs, that they would automatically be beautiful. Along with the "recommendation" of the jeweler, he decided to skirt the viewing in person advice and place all faith into the jeweler's word.

Oddly enough, most of the reviews for that jeweler are positive, but I'm inclined to believe that they are either fake or written by people who didn't realize what actually happened (if I wasn't so picky about the diamond being cloudy, I wouldn't have dug into the research and realized we'd been bamboozled). Since it is a chain store, I looked up their other location's reviews and MANY of them complained about the jeweler's deceitful ways which were very similar to what I experienced.

One guy said he actually let the store charge him for a stone/setting but then realized it was a bad situation in the same visit and they wouldn't give him a refund. He ended up walking out of the store without the ring- opened a claim with his cc company and got his money refunded.

 

[yssie]

I’m glad you’re feeling better @sledge

I’m removing myself from this thread - I’m on my way to a lovely week in Canada I will simply iterate that a decade here has taught me that numbers and plots should not be used as stop signs, or even warnings, unto themselves - in my strong opinion the only thing an ethical jeweller should do in this scenario is suggest that the buyer(s) see the stone in-person to judge it. The situation described initially in this thread, without background of prior threads, paints a different picture than what has appeared after four pages of that context coming out - given this additional context I will happily state that I, too, would not recommend this vendor, or any vendor who demands non-refundable payment without in-person viewing.

@Rubymal if you decide to go in another direction you’re in good hands here on PS. Mistakes happen!!

It was me who stated that one should buy with his (or her) eyes - but training those eyes is critical - some people have naturally discerning vision and aesthetic, but for most people it takes time and exposure - and for some people potatoes will just always sparkle

Use the tools, lists, proportions charts, diagrams, etc. as guidelines - guidelines only. Let your eyes learn what they like to see and then trust them.

The upsides here are that you’re obviously a well-grounded woman - and your FI will know better than to pick paint colours or home furnishings or wedding decor or baby clothes without some input from you first

 

[natasha-cupcake]

@Rubymal, my husband bought me two diamonds 25 years apart. The first was a total dud. The second was not a total dud, but expensive and not up to my/PS standards. He is no longer allowed to purchase jewelry of any sort for me. If he wants to surprise me, I will give him explicit instructions on what to purchase and I will be happy to put on a very convincing !!Surprised!! face.

We're good, now!!

 

[MamaBee]

@Rubymal, my husband bought me two diamonds 25 years apart. The first was a total dud. The second was not a total dud, but expensive and not up to my/PS standards. He is no longer allowed to purchase jewelry of any sort for me. If he wants to surprise me, I will give him explicit instructions on what to purchase and I will be happy to put on a very convincing !!Surprised!! face.

We're good, now!!

Yes! I am married a long time....so I got him to the point where he tells me what he wants me to get...and I get it! He loves when I’m happy so it’s a win!

 

[sledge]

Thank you @yssie! And I hope your trip to Canada is fun. What part? I was in Toronto several years back and had a great time. One of my favorite experiences was a friend and coworker was Asian and we hit Chinatown while there. He lit up like a fat kid in a candy store. Started talking in his native tongue, bartering and ordering food for the entire group of us.

Also I would agree whole heartedly about viewing with your eyes. Unfortunately as pointed out, I think a good portion of buyers lack the depth of experience to trust their eyes. It's something that can be learned rather easily but diamond education isn't a priority despite approximately 50% of the population will need/want to buy a diamond at some point (assuming they get married and propose traditionally).

I remember a marketing class I took and how retailers place candy, junk food, etc at eye level of kids. It may be a smart way to boost sales but it feels a little slimy to me too.

Jewelers know most people lack in depth knowledge so this thread hits a nerve for me as I feel they should be more responsible with the power they are given. While looking at proportions, plots, images, etc may be overkill at least it provides some objective information to place judgment instead of just what looks "pretty".

But I do respect you and the wisdom you bring as I've enjoyed many of your posts. Again, have fun in Canada.

 

[gm89uk]

I think spending a lot of time here has taught seasoned PSers to be critical of jewellers.

I was certainly shocked to learn when the stone heavily suggested to me was a terrible heavily included, poor performing diamond and I put a deposit on it. Iit looked great in the store lighting, and the dazzle drowned the inclusions. Only afterwards did I realise what I was dealt, but fortunately managed to sort things out.

I understand that your fiancé didn't do his due diligence, but most people wouldn't expect how carefully they need to double check their own jewellers recommendation. I cannot blame the jeweller for suggesting a GIA Excellent stone (even if the numbers aren't PS HCA perfect). Based on the certificate, some HPD stones with Si2 have the same inclusion plot and comments on the certificate, but are great diamonds. But I'd have expected the jeweller to look and advise regarding this stone before handing it over for good.

What else is the point of dealing with a jeweller?

 

[AV_]

Synthetic_ downsides,

That in a decade or so the same may well be available for the price of a bag of apples & regarded according to price.

Synthetic sapphire prices took a couple of decades to get below anyting natural & there were too many large & perfect sapphires in the world at that point.

'Secondary market value' might say more of the market than of diamonds or sapphire - these have been around for longer; I expect the future of naturals to be more surprising than that of synthetics (& no more).

 

[ponyrider]

I hesitated to post this here because it really doesnt help the OP solve the problem but I have a very similar diamond. I did not pay a lot for this but it exhibits the same characteristics as described by the OP. I dont wear it often and when I do, I make sure we are going to be in an indoor evening setting (restaurant or similar) where it behaves a bit better. It is also set a bit ornately to hopefully take the focus off the stone - lol.

 

[Rubymal]

I hesitated to post this here because it really doesnt help the OP solve the problem but I have a very similar diamond. I did not pay a lot for this but it exhibits the same characteristics as described by the OP. I dont wear it often and when I do, I make sure we are going to be in an indoor evening setting (restaurant or similar) where it behaves a bit better. It is also set a bit ornately to hopefully take the focus off the stone - lol.

Thank you for sharing! I actually ended up replacing my original diamond. Well, it's still in a drawer in my house so I might find another project for it someday. I ended up buying a whole other diamond from Whiteflash.

 

[kmoro]

Thank you for sharing! I actually ended up replacing my original diamond. Well, it's still in a drawer in my house so I might find another project for it someday. I ended up buying a whole other diamond from Whiteflash.

You did WHAT and didn’t tell us??? LOL

Clearly another member (OP) has underestimated our interest in others’ diamond experiences! We followed you for four pages ... how could you .... lol.

Nice picture! The new diamond looks beautiful!! Will you please tell us about your new diamond and post a bunch more pictures??? I hope you love it!!!

 

[Rubymal]

You did WHAT and didn’t tell us??? LOL

Clearly another member (OP) has underestimated our interest in others’ diamond experiences! We followed you for four pages ... how could you .... lol.

Nice picture! The new diamond looks beautiful!! Will you please tell us about your new diamond and post a bunch more pictures??? I hope you love it!!!

Ahhh, my sincerest apologies, @kmoro !! I actually created a few other threads and updated those ones instead ! However, I was thinking of making a thread in show me the bling to showcase the many many photos I have. Once i do that, I'll be sure to link it to this original thread!

 

[axelrich]

The diamond should not be "milky" like that. As others have mentioned, if you're not attached to the diamond I would bring it back to the jeweler and address the situation. They knew very well it was a very "milky" stone and that's not cool.

Well said, A good advice indeed...

 

[ponyrider]

Thank you for sharing! I actually ended up replacing my original diamond. Well, it's still in a drawer in my house so I might find another project for it someday. I ended up buying a whole other diamond from Whiteflash.

There you go!!! I am happy for you I have a love-hate relationship with mine. Its not a ring I wear often but sometimes I enjoy its moodiness Your new stone looks lovely!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

This thread has stimulated a worthwhile discussion about the role of the jeweler and their ethical obligations to consumers, and there has been a lot of valid commentary. I think it is important to recognize the context of how laboratory reports first entered the market in a big way.

When GIA created the grading system that all other lab grading is based on today, they were largely devoted to teaching jewelers. When grading reports started becoming an important part of their mission, there was a very strong presumption that consumers would be viewing and discussing those reports with a GIA trained jeweler and gaining an understanding of all the value factors, large and small, some of which are NOT directly discernible from the data on a report. For instance, a cut grade was omitted from a GIA report until recent times, but GIA trained jewelers were trained to discuss cut quality and make certain assessments that could be shared with consumers in the course of a diamond showing. Transparency deficits caused by certain types of inclusions are another important aspect of diamond beauty and value that are not directly addressed in a GIA report, but can be explained to a consumer by a trained jeweler with the diamond in hand.

Today, the jewelry industry has changed in fundamental ways - the rise of internet shopping having been one of the biggest disrupters of all. Jewelers no longer actually buy their own inventories to the extent they did originally, most relying instead on consignments or virtual inventories to fuel their businesses. In the days when the jeweler actually committed their own money to buy diamond inventory, the most problematic stones tended to be excluded. Therefore, many of today’s “bargain” stones have bypassed that first important filter.

Jewelers trying to compete today, are often shopping on behalf of customers without the benefit of seeing the diamond themselves and are quite often working within some budget parameters that tend to favor diamonds with some less than desirable qualities. And because many of the diamonds they access may come from overseas, returns are problematic. A ‘no returns’ policy may be an indication of such a situation. Moreover, sight unseen ‘no returns’ should be a non-starter for any important diamond or jewelry purchase.

This is not in any way excusing a jeweler from a duty to properly inform and protect the consumer. But rather to explain why the market NEEDS well trained and ethical jewelers. And there are many of them out there.

It is possible today to make great purchases online with the proper due diligence. But it is a very good practice to have those purchases inspected by an experienced and fully qualified independent gemologist during the returns period.