Added Value: A discussion.

[diagem]

Hello PS'ers & Happy Holidays,

Since this industry is going through tremendous & rapid changes presently as in the past decade and as I consider PS as a great barometer reflecting (especialy educated) consumers  & professional knowledge, I thought it would be a great topic brainstorming the subject of "added value" on Gem & Diamond jewels specifically.

"Added Value" can be measured and discussed based on quite a few criteria e.g. marketing ideas, manufacturing specialities, AVS (added value services), jewelry design innovations or trends, display visuals (B&M-online), packaging, educationals and much, much more!

Unfortunately I have been noticing how these changes are transforming old industry practices into two contrast directions. One is professional knowledge & innovations where industry players are adapting and are able to grow their businesses into succesful models but mostly I am noticing the larger share of the majority who are finding themselves in complicated situations unable to keep up with the changes and are rapidly finding themselves out of the game (period.) it's a great pity as a lot of them are family operations and it's effects are destructive.

In the hopes that professionals are (or will....) reading the forums I thought it would be an appropriate platform to discuss these issues. These discussions are aimed at both the professional and the consumer as one and am hoping they will entice some audience paticipations.

This industry is moving through changes at a rather rapid pace (faster than anyone would have imagined a short while ago). Unfortunately most industry players IMO are stuck with Historic business practices & knowledge. In order to move on and be able to identify future trends/changes they must learn/educate themselves!!! They will have no choice as I have been touting for years. 

On the darker side of the story the majority of professionals  work as if "price" is THE major component to determine a Gem/Diamond "value"! (well, some even offer more simple added value services like better cuts, some matching and other simple demand type services. Unfortunately most consumers as well believe "price" is the determined  value factor.

There is a bright side to this story as-well. Any professional can if he/she chooses to educate themselves and their immediate staff. Internet is an amazing database of knowledge, most of the information needed is out there and the great part it is free! I think a PS thread openly discussing these issues by interacting between professionals & con/prosumers minds will produce results translated into many WinWin situations. Now to just hope reading is not the obstacle.

A PS thread like this can possibly offer in concentration educational materials required by elimination of the massive quantities of ineffective information out there. Part of the problem I foresee is the starting point. PS is the ultimate starting point for anyone interested in positively effective educational materials.

I will begin with a starting point for discussion which hopefully might spark some interest.

Transparency (which is an opposite of the old-school of thinking). 

I believe transparency is the key word to a lot of Added Value component. 
It's time to identify that utilizing the old-school methods of "secrecy run operations" is no longer a reality and what better than to look straight at our reality. 

What could be better than show & educate why your product has content of genuine and agreed values.

 

[Jim Summa]

Hi Yoram,

This is indeed a tough one. Things are shifting quickly and sometimes the future looks a little murky as far as where things are headed.

As a professional I would recommend a little old school, and that would be joining the American Gem Society. They require a least a diamond education from GIA (GIA and AGS were founded by Robert Shipley) and then participating in the organizations annual 4 days of meeting (Conclave) that they hold yearly in different American cities (the memberships I believe are limited to Canada, US and Mexico at this time). This year's will be in Southern California in the spring and my two assistants are already looking forward to it.

The new school part of the discussion for myself is watching Pricescope. If your reading this post then you know not a day goes by without something of value being discussed. I think it was Karl who said read PS for 15 minutes and you will know what it takes to run a store.

On a personal note its the holidays and I'm off to work!

 

[Tekate]

I am new here, but have loved diamonds and jewlery since I can remember that said:

You bring up many interesting and diverse topics to discuss..

Transparency (which is an opposite of the old-school of thinking).

I believe transparency is the key word to a lot of Added Value component.
It's time to identify that utilizing the old-school methods of "secrecy run operations" is no longer a reality and what better than to look straight at our reality.


The transparency of vendors such as Good Old Gold has allowed 'retail buyers' such as myself a 'best as can afford' diamond that is to my mind better than what one can get at 'chains such as Jared' at the same price point..this transparency I think, will change even the diamond cutting business.. as consumers/and proconsumers one can learn about 'cut' and learn a LOT.. the cut of the diamond and angles can add value to a consumer who is buying a diamond on a limited budget.. as such I mean, you can get a better diamond at the same price.. I have said here before, if I were a mega watt rich person I would buy my ring through a vendor here... so I think the transparency of the web has helped consumers immensely BUT I wonder as people become better educated the Jareds, Samuels, Kays will either have to change OR go out of business.. the supply chain will have to understand that people can and do educate themselves on diamonds and as such will have to change.. my .02.

this is a fascinating read I think.. you may have read this already.

http://www.bain.com/publications/articles/global-diamond-report-2013.aspx

 

[starrylight]

One is professional knowledge & innovations where industry players are adapting and are able to grow their businesses into succesful models but mostly I am noticing the larger share of the majority who are finding themselves in complicated situations unable to keep up with the changes and are rapidly finding themselves out of the game (period.) it's a great pity as a lot of them are family operations and it's effects are destructive.

In the hopes that professionals are (or will....) reading the forums I thought it would be an appropriate platform to discuss these issues. These discussions are aimed at both the professional and the consumer as one and am hoping they will entice some audience paticipations.

This industry is moving through changes at a rather rapid pace (faster than anyone would have imagined a short while ago). Unfortunately most industry players IMO are stuck with Historic business practices & knowledge. In order to move on and be able to identify future trends/changes they must learn/educate themselves!!! They will have no choice as I have been touting for years. 

And yet when a supposed professional comes onto the boards asking for advice, he is met by laughter and jeers. While I had to agree to some extent as it did not sound like he had read any of the information or discussions available, I think his question had some validity. I think the best way to provide support to other professionals that might be lurking is to ask what educated consumers like/need to see in order to purchase from stores.

 

[TC1987]

...

Unfortunately I have been noticing how these changes are transforming old industry practices into two contrast directions. One is professional knowledge & innovations where industry players are adapting and are able to grow their businesses into succesful models but mostly I am noticing the larger share of the majority who are finding themselves in complicated situations unable to keep up with the changes and are rapidly finding themselves out of the game (period.) it's a great pity as a lot of them are family operations and it's effects are destructive.

...

I'm not sure what type of audience participation you are looking for, but here is my experience with local chain stores and mom & pop vs. online: Compare 1992-1993 to Pricescope.
My first diamond was the e-ring, back in 1992, Charleston, WV, and our choices for stores back them were the typical mall jeweler chain stores of the day, "Lilly's Crown Jewelers," a regional series of chain stores (Charleston, Beckley, Dunbar, maybe other locations) owned and run by the Lilly family, and the big pawn shop in Charleston, B&B Loans (pawn shop, estate, new, and used jewelry) that had been in business since the '20s or '30s and was also a local family-run business. The other stores were out of his price range, he said: Calvin Broyles, McCormick, Galperin ,John E. Cook. But those four were also the ones that carried the better-cut and certed diamonds of the day. McCormick carried the AGS-graded diamonds.

My bf went to Lilly's Beckley store and that's where he got his education about cut/color/clarity. The prices were very high, and the budget he had to work with was about $3000- $3200 and that would have bought, in 1992, only about a .6ct G SI2 that had a sizable black spot in it, not eyeclean, probably had IGI cert but might have been GIA, and a plain yg Tiffany-type 6 prong solitaire setting.

I told him to go see B&B Loans, because that's where everyone in Charleston like cops and teachers and ordinary people bought some nice-looking rings. So, for $3600, he got the .85ct G VVS1, uncerted by anyone, evaluated and appraised per their GIA GG, and it was probably only "good" cut at best by today's standards.

There would have been no cut grade on either the Lily's stone or the B&B Loans stone, but those stores asked $3200 for .6ct SI2 with big sort-of prongable black spot, and B&B was asking close to $4000 for the uncerted G VVS1 .85ct.

2004:
I bought, from B&B Loans, a 1.03 or so ct H I1 that is eyeclean and very nicely cut, for less than $3000 set in a YG solitaire. If I sent it to GIA now, I feel it would get a VG cut and symmetry grade, and it might receive an SI2 clarity grade instead of I1, because I have looked at a lot of today's SI2s that are not as clean as that I1. It's a better performer than that .85 ct that was bought in 1992, is larger, and it cost less.

2013:
Now, today, $3300 - $3600 will buy you (wire transfer) 0.817ct G SI2 AGS #104066317014 from Whiteflash that is eyeclean enough. Or a .8 I VS2 or a .76 H SI1. That's just the stone, but a Stuller solitaire won't add much more cost. Those stones have credentials that my bf found unaffordable back in 1992. And the cut is vastly improved, and the price is the same is in 1992, and there is far more information available.

The local jewelry stores in my small town don't carry anything with a GIA or AGS report. IGI from a maul chain store is all I can find. And the prices are still far to high for the kind of low-end junk they are selling. I don't even window shop anymore at retail chain stores.

So, Mom and Pop, you either innovate, keep up, compete, or die. PS has been in existence since early 2000s, over 10 years now. So I see absolutely no reason for my local small town jeweler to not have an ASET scope or an IdealScope or otherwise be able to demonstrate that his/her diamonds are just as modern and just as good as what's being sold in the Internet.

Remount events: I don't even go to remount events held at B&M stores anymore. I would love to buy something at a remount event. But when those shows come in and show me halo mountings for $7000 or $10,000 in 18kt gold, not even platinum, and that's more than a genuine Victor or a Leon platinum mounting costs... Well, surely they can't sell me anything.

 

[Karl_K]

Jewelers still have an image problem in many communities.
Many Jewelers unfortunately deserve that image.
Number 1 way to add value: Show respect and honesty, then educate and form relationships with your customers. Many people when shopping for Jewelery will ask their circle of people for recommendations.
One person saying this one is honest and treated me right and gave me an honest deal can lead to 10s if not 100s of sales over a few years. One person saying that place is scum will cost much more than that.

The best sales person I ever know(she is now retired) had dozens of customers who would drop in just to talk to her when they were in the area and she know all about them and sold tons of Jewelery year round.
When is the last time one of your customers dropped in just to talk to you?
When was the last time you were involved in the community? Doing volunteer work? Sponsoring sports teams? Sponsoring scouts? Sponsoring homeless and battered woman's shelters?


More later.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

I found PS 7 years ago when I began looking for a new diamond ring for an anniversary. I honestly wanted to try to give a local jeweler the business, and I asked one for some specific specs (ideal cut or better GIA XXX, G-H, VS). He couldn't supply a single stone.

As a result, I went with a PS vendor and all my diamonds since then have been from PS vendors. The locally owned family jewelers that have the best chance of making it into the future are ones like Good Old Gold and Pearlman's who have significant internet sales. I do think there will always be clientele, however, for the mall chain stores because a certain segment of the population will just find it appealing to walk in and buy a ring and be happily ignorant of the specs. The independent jewelers are going to have to be more competitive in price to make it as more and more people are able to compare diamond prices on the internet.

 

[c-k]

My 2 cents worth....Social Media, getting your name out there, service service service......taking care of the customer. The price you pay will be long forgotten with great customer service.

Real Old school still works!!.... with social media, the internet, the vast information available to all, old school still has its place. I will pay more to get that customer service. It can be found, you as a consumer have some responsibility to do a bit of homework.

Trying to separate those who proclaim from those who produce, internet competition has created many challenges for the good guys

The real 'old school' had/has transparency (hate that term), had/has the honesty, had/has people with knowledge & understanding, had/has the proper tools, that is/was real value.

 

[Karl_K]

My point above by adding value to your community you can do something no online or box store can do in your area. This leads to increased mind share and more traffic in your store.

2: draw people to your store.
If I was running a jewelery store I would sell cell phones/contracts and have dedicated employees manning the cell phone desk.
These days there is nothing better for drawing people into a small store.

3: Never let people leave empty handed.
If they don't buy something the leave with a card and printout of what they were looking at or at the very least a flier with your website information on it.

4: Put your education material on your website. You don't have to sell through your website but its not a bad idea. Your products need to be on it. If someone googles "your town, brand name you sell" Your name comes up right? No? You just lost a bunch of sales.

 

[smitcompton]

Hi,

The diamond and gem businesses that used the internet to sell early seem to have reaped the most. They promised more value than the B&M store. It seems the key word was "CUT". Next, price was less due to lower overhead costs. As consumer and Vendor trusted each other more upgrade policies, exchange policies, viewing the diamond on line all grew to where you had a lot of value add compared to B&M stores. They still do not have the panache of the high end stores though.

I read where white flash no longer wants to deal in virtual stones and interestingly, had opened a B&M store . I, for one, like this idea. Whiteflash seems to be narrowing the target base of their clientel. They want a higher end client, who is looking for their select and aca stones. Interesting. I enjoy a higher class name brand, (Cartier, ect.) and think this is very clever of them. Its a value add to me. They are my first choice for purchasing diamonds.

Not everyone can deal in the best diamonds. . But everyone can use the internet for sales as well as their stores. You have to know your target audience, give them honest evaluations, and treat them well. One vendor here wants to deal with everyone, selling diamonds that are lazeredand treated and has high end cuts for mucho dollars on the other side. He wants it all. Usually thats hard to work because you dilute your brand with the crap, and people like me remember that.

Some of these vendors have done great, given great service, but I would leave PS in place as the consumer keeps these vendors in check.

Annette

 

[Karl_K]

5: constantly do research, who are your customers and what are they looking for? Whats in, whats out?
What is the most common budget ranges for different customers?
6: offer something unique, be it a different brand or a different cut or a different setting.
7: Finally get it that Woman are buying their own diamonds! I have been in stores dressed as my usually scruffy self and sales people jump up to help me while a Lady that looks like she has 10x the spending money I do is ignored.
8: treat all you customers from a $20 purchase to a million dollar purchase well. One of my former clients is the top 3 richest people in town and top 100 in the state. He had done business for years with a jeweler and spent a lot of money on watches and jewelery. He sent his executive assistant to purchase a $100 item for a gift and they treated her badly. Ignored her and they were rude. That jeweler lost more than one of his best customers that day.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

This topic is very timely. Thank you for starting this thread.
Briefly, a few of my personal observations.
I speak from experience. I have been in this business for 35 years.

The small local jeweler in the 80's had to compete with heavy discount jewelers such as
Service Merchandise. Folks would wait for that heavy telephone book sized catalog to arrive at their home.
Enthusiastic wives, husbands and children would circle what they wanted while sitting in the kitchen or the bathroom possibly.
Next, the person would schlep to their giant store, grab a clip board, check off their purchase, and purchase it after taking a look in the display case. Cold and impersonal. The opposite of the small local jeweler. Eventual winner= small local jeweler. Transparency rating: Poor

The 90's saw a strong push by the majors like Kay's, Zales, Whitehall. The malls were busy and credit was given to anyone that could
breathe. Some majors had "sales" of 50% off everyday on everything. Eventually, these tactics failed and some of the majors closed forever. Diamond grading was often based on an "in house" system where A+ was really an M-N color diamond and A++++ was really a J color.
The "best" clarity was often an I1, with I3 as very acceptable. "Cut" was never discussed. Eventual winner=small local jeweler. Transparency rating: Fair.

The new decade of 2000 saw a mix of everything and by early to mid 2000, the thought of buying a diamond on-line became a reality.
Younger consumers embraced it but middle and older folks feared it. Small local jewelers didn't really understand it, so they also feared it. Most if not many small local jewelers did not know about Pricescope and many to this day still do not. The small local jeweler realized that he had to have very good price awareness or he would perish. Local retailers quickly learned to re-invent themselves to save their business. Eventual winners= small local jewelers, guild independents, and quality based internet vendors. Transparency rating: Good

Now we are looking at the years 2011+ . The internet diamond vendors are here to stay. Many providing reports on just about any part of the diamond along with scans, light performance, and critical analyses, ASET, etc. The consumer sees just about everything: virtual loupes, pricing structures of every vendor, etc. It's ALL out there. The small local jeweler is staying afloat by offering "personal service" and competitive "internet" pricing" as well as CAD design services and on site repair work. As I talk to many independents, the stores that have CAD/design capabilities as well as an "in-house" jeweler are doing well (surviving). They must adjust often and change often to stay competitive. The stores must look fresh and enticing with the very latest styles and all price points and happy ,smiling and educated employees. These are just the basics that must be achieved. Eventual winners= small local jewelers, guild independents and quality internet vendors. Transparency rating: Very Good

So the trend, as I see it is positive. As a large national clothing store once advertised "An educated consumer is our best customer."
I see a bright future for the small local jewelers if they pay attention and don't become complacent. The internet guys will be fine. Both will be fine. I'm positive!

 

[yssie]

This topic is very timely. Thank you for starting this thread.
Briefly, a few of my personal observations.
I speak from experience. I have been in this business for 35 years.

The small local jeweler in the 80's had to compete with heavy discount jewelers such as
Service Merchandise. Folks would wait for that heavy telephone book sized catalog to arrive at their home.
Enthusiastic wives, husbands and children would circle what they wanted while sitting in the kitchen or the bathroom possibly.
Next, the person would schlep to their giant store, grab a clip board, check off their purchase, and purchase it after taking a look in the display case. Cold and impersonal. The opposite of the small local jeweler. Eventual winner= small local jeweler. Transparency rating: Poor

The 90's saw a strong push by the majors like Kay's, Zales, Whitehall. The malls were busy and credit was given to anyone that could
breathe. Some majors had "sales" of 50% off everyday on everything. Eventually, these tactics failed and some of the majors closed forever. Diamond grading was often based on an "in house" system where A+ was really an M-N color diamond and A++++ was really a J color.
The "best" clarity was often an I1, with I3 as very acceptable. "Cut" was never discussed. Eventual winner=small local jeweler. Transparency rating: Fair.

The new decade of 2000 saw a mix of everything and by early to mid 2000, the thought of buying a diamond on-line became a reality.
Younger consumers embraced it but middle and older folks feared it. Small local jewelers didn't really understand it, so they also feared it. Most if not many small local jewelers did not know about Pricescope and many to this day still do not. The small local jeweler realized that he had to have very good price awareness or he would perish. Local retailers quickly learned to re-invent themselves to save their business. Eventual winners= small local jewelers, guild independents, and quality based internet vendors. Transparency rating: Good

Now we are looking at the years 2011+ . The internet diamond vendors are here to stay. Many providing reports on just about any part of the diamond along with scans, light performance, and critical analyses, ASET, etc. The consumer sees just about everything: virtual loupes, pricing structures of every vendor, etc. It's ALL out there. The small local jeweler is staying afloat by offering "personal service" and competitive "internet" pricing" as well as CAD design services and on site repair work. As I talk to many independents, the stores that have CAD/design capabilities as well as an "in-house" jeweler are doing well (surviving). They must adjust often and change often to stay competitive. The stores must look fresh and enticing with the very latest styles and all price points and happy ,smiling and educated employees. These are just the basics that must be achieved. Eventual winners= small local jewelers, guild independents and quality internet vendors. Transparency rating: Very Good

So the trend, as I see it is positive. As a large national clothing store once advertised "An educated consumer is our best customer."
I see a bright future for the small local jewelers if they pay attention and don't become complacent. The internet guys will be fine. Both will be fine. I'm positive!

I don't have anything of my own to add right now as my thoughts are all over the place and I need to collect them, but I just wanted to say that this post made for an interesting read, thank you Jeff!

 

[diagem]

Thanx for the replies folks...

I must admit, old-school on a measured dose is a necessity in the industry, if it sounded as I am dismissing old-school I am sorry it wasn't the case.

Old-school relationships are still very important unfortunately social media & online communications are eliminating them slowly but surely.
Ethics..., believe it or not old-school ethics were strict and powerfully enforced. They were limited to present social requirements, but the ones who were in place we're taken most seriously. They still are but everything presently comes in masses (more ethical subjects and a much larger and geographically spread industry) which complicates enforcement..

Gemological education is a must as well (especially these days where ones knowledge in the field might help through the pluralities of treatments & other scenarios out there) but still is considered only theoretical, apprenticeships are still required. Education is endless and should not be limited to gemological.

My aim in this discussion is more towards innovative thinking and practices both on the suppliers side as with the retail segment (professionals) down to consumer behavior (potential retail clients) etc. On the professional level this means moving away from old-school thinking. On the consumer level it means more information gatherings prior to transactions.

I claim we are just scratching the surface of the potentials. Most innovative professionals and jewelers are still playing the conservative Gem game, they are creating, selling and buying jewelry consisting of limited Diamond cuts & stories (more precise cuts, reflector technologies, grading reports, video comparisons etc, etc...) which is great but I believe we have the tools for more daring routes. Given present technologies, who says Diamonds should be cut to known shapes & cuts? Diamond material (in this case) is only material, its optical potential is tremendous. Same goes for other materials as well I suppose. Just an example I foresee in the future.

 

[denverappraiser]

Some of the most highly ethical people I’ve ever met are in that pool of ‘old school’ jewelers and their suppliers. Historically, diamonds have been a blind purchase where you were expected to rely on your jeweler to steer you right. The difference between a $1000 stone and a $5000 stone were subtle and you were expected to trust your neighborhood jeweler to tell them apart. In many (most actually) cases the jewelers took this trust very seriously and the process actually worked out fairly well and the enforcement was subtle. Reputational damage was a disaster for the retailer, the quality suppliers didn’t want to be associated with stores seen as lacking and the quality stores didn’t want to be associated with the brands represented by the sleezballs.

In a weird way that’s still the case but now customers want to do the research themselves. They don’t WANT to trust the jeweler. In many ways they’re right but that opens up a new set of issues. It’s STILL a blind purchase after all. Now they trust the labs. They trust the appraisers. They trust the Internet tutorials. They trust forums like this one. They trust Rapaport. Is this better? In some ways,yes, and it’s definitely the trend of the future but it’s not without it’s troubles and each comes with it's own pitfalls. Grading labs are one of the fastest growing segment of the industry and this is sure to continue. The more people count diamonds as a world commodity, the more powerful Rapaport becomes. GIA is the strongest brand name in diamonds and that’s going nowhere but up. Education has subtly been taken over by the Internet suppliers and, to the extent that people ask gemological sorts of questions of salespeople, they’re asking questions they already know the answers to (or at least THINK they know). As diamonds become fungible, stores are becoming fungible. I agree with Yoram that the value of a formal gemological education is dropping but the value of an apprenticeship and interconnectivity with the community is growing. The skills required to be the jeweler of the future are changing but we need good jewelers as much now as we ever have. Meanwhile, the evolution of GIA moving from the role of a school to that of a manufacturer is nearly complete.

 

[Modified Brilliant]

In this business, everyone needs to find their own niche. It's really hard to be all things to all people.

Regarding education...nothing will ever take the place of working side by side in the trenches with a
jewelry professional or store owner. You should take the best from that person and then augment
that knowledge with formal training from GIA or another educational entity. I know a store owner
who is a highly skilled bench jeweler who taught both his young teenage daughters to laser weld
and they are also taking GIA courses.
You can't put a price tag on that sort of complete education.

Yoram, I am totally on board with trying new diamond shapes or anything new. Designers today are
using all sorts of new metals, steel, wood, etc. in their designs. Who knows where technology will take us?

 

[c-k]

Some vendors have made their web sites so easy to navigate, so informative, loaded with pictures, specifications, facts, everything and anything you could think of. If this same vendor can provide me with confidence to buy from them, warranties, exchanges, returns, price, service before and after the sale...I would be a customer

 

[yssie]

The industry is, in a lot of ways, a strange combination of mismatches and anachronisms. On one hand you have groups like OctoNus that are creating new analytic tools that people like DiaGem can use to revolutionise design - design that necessitates confidence in the ability to exactingly manufacture per some given specifications. On the other you have the fact that the major labs still grade colour and clarity - two of the major price-setters - by eye, hand, and opinion.

What is "old-school" in this context? Is it one-on-one personal (in-person?) interaction between vendor and consumer? Is it the implication that there are certain truths about diamonds that a consumer should only have access to through someone who works in the industry? Perhaps it's usually a bit of both? Neil, you brought up ethics, and that's what set off ramble... I define "ethical" as presenting information about a certain diamond as completely and truthfully as possible, and aren't the descriptors "completely" and "truthfully" both big cans of worms! The latter, especially, is only as stable and certain as the entity that defines it. If GIA issues a report for a J SI1 that a consumer takes to an appraiser who then states it's a J SI2, who's right? Presumably GIA. If the consumer sends that stone off to AGSL and it comes back with K VS2, who's right? If the manufacturer was unhappy with the J SI1 grade and sent it for re-grading and it came back as I SI1, what's the "truth"? What if a consumer has GIA J SI1 from 2006 and sends it in for re-grading and in 2013 it comes back I VS2?

To be honest I don't think most consumers are inclined to devalue personal interaction with a knowledgeable vendor - in fact I think that as sales are automated more and more establishments that can offer that sort of interaction will be much sought-after. I do think the way the entities that define the "truths" that these ethical vendors are presenting completely and truthfully will change - and I think they *should*. "Truth" about the 4Cs shouldn't have multiple faces that vendors/manufacturers can manipulate - they shouldn't have the option of choosing to represent the stone as either the GIA J SI1 or the AGSL K VS2, for example... This is very different from Cut, IMO, which different labs might grade differently but for which each lab has a clear and unyielding set of objective requirements and restrictions. Colour is the obvious problem: it should be assigned strictly by wavelength, frequency, and absorption spectra, and should be automated so it's robust and repeatable. Then that becomes a binary "truth" and vendors have the option of either disclosing it or not - but there's no grey area for unscrupulous vendors to take advantage of or scrupulous vendors to have to try to explain to overwhelmed consumers... Clarity is more difficult - I can't come up with any system I'd personally trust to consider all aspects of visibility, impact on durability, and effects on light return, but... yes, there's a lot of information out there now and consumers can (and should!) educate themselves on what they're buying, but all of that information is just that - information! From my perspective as a consumer who isn't new to buying diamonds, well, I now value my sales associates' and appraisers' opinions more, not less, because they know what information is important to me and what isn't and thanks to having seen many more stones than I ever will they can parse it and translate it into choosing a stone that makes my heart melt. And the more I learn the less I see diamonds as mass-manufactured commodities that can be wholly defined by numbers and letters and papers and the more I realise that I *need* to see it with my own eyes before I buy it, or have someone I trust to keep my priorities in-mind look at it... that sort of trust is nothing Rapaport, GIA, or forums like PS can compete with.

I guess the point I'm getting to in a roundabout way is that that sort of trust would be a whole heck of a lot easier to give and earn without pseudo-truths like opinion-based diamond colour grading muddying the water, so... I'm all in favour of changes that remove people from the grading process. People have opinions, and opinions are fundamentally unreliable in a one-size-fits-all model. People are exactly what you don't want when determining objective "truths"... and people's opinions are exactly what you DO want when figuring out how to translate a bunch of truths into a personalised fit

 

[denverappraiser]

Yssie. I largely agree with you, especially about automated grading, but it’s slippery even with that. I remember reading a story a while back about a Hollywood celebrity who bought a diamond for a ridiculous amount of money. No surprises so far. In the interview he explained that it had come from a Spirit cave in Africa and that it was found on a particularly auspicious day. His marriage was sure to work, something that seems to be a problem in Hollywood. Needless to say I cringed at the thought that this client would come to me for an appraisal. What is that particular value-add worth? What would it take to replace it? He can, of course, buy whatever he likes and I applaud the jeweler for finding value attributes that make their stones more desirable to their clients than what the competition offers but, even assuming the claim is 100% true, is it legit? Do they now have carte blanche to charge whatever they want because they’ve found an attribute that makes their stone(s) absolutely unique, no matter how arcane? What possible clues should I as an appraiser use to value this sort of thing? It’s not just about Hollywood crazies. Canadian origin in some markets trades at a premium and it’s not just a Canadian tax matter. This is not a testable attribute and the claims of it boil down to the credibility of the people making the claim. Is a stone cut by Yoram or Paul personally worth more than a knockoff that’s otherwise identical? How about one cut by someone that one of them hires to do all or some of the work? With other artworks this is a BIG deal. A painting by Thomas Kinkade goes for vastly more than a similar painting by the 'workshop of Thomas Kinkade'. Is it obscuring the truth to not tell a buyer exactly which employees worked on it or, for that matter, on what day it was mined? While we're at it, is ‘spirit cave’ another term for ‘mine’ or is there some attribute here that needs to be evaluated? Dealers have a vested interest in differentiating their stuff but consumers seem to have a need for it as well. This is exactly the ‘value add’ proposition that’s being discussed.

 

[spicyitalian]

Different people perceive value differently. Some people might view diamond cutting as an art. With the correct method of selling, it is possible for companies to market it to a niche consumer market. Take gabi tolkowsky for example. His signature diamonds are marketed as "limited" collections and each comes with a certificate of authentication.

If you can convince people that certain values are worth paying for, you can establish a niche market to service clients.

 

[yssie]

Yssie. I largely agree with you, especially about automated grading, but it’s slippery even with that. I remember reading a story a while back about a Hollywood celebrity who bought a diamond for a ridiculous amount of money. No surprises so far. In the interview he explained that it had come from a Spirit cave in Africa and that it was found on a particularly auspicious day. His marriage was sure to work, something that seems to be a problem in Hollywood. Needless to say I cringed at the thought that this client would come to me for an appraisal. What is that particular value-add worth? What would it take to replace it? He can, of course, buy whatever he likes and I applaud the jeweler for finding value attributes that make their stones more desirable to their clients than what the competition offers but, even assuming the claim is 100% true, is it legit? Do they now have carte blanche to charge whatever they want because they’ve found an attribute that makes their stone(s) absolutely unique, no matter how arcane? What possible clues should I as an appraiser use to value this sort of thing? It’s not just about Hollywood crazies. Canadian origin in some markets trades at a premium and it’s not just a Canadian tax matter. This is not a testable attribute and the claims of it boil down to the credibility of the people making the claim. Is a stone cut by Yoram or Paul personally worth more than a knockoff that’s otherwise identical? How about one cut by someone that one of them hires to do all or some of the work? With other artworks this is a BIG deal. A painting by Thomas Kinkade goes for vastly more than a similar painting by the 'workshop of Thomas Kinkade'. Is it obscuring the truth to not tell a buyer exactly which employees worked on it or, for that matter, on what day it was mined? While we're at it, is ‘spirit cave’ another term for ‘mine’ or is there some attribute here that needs to be evaluated? Dealers have a vested interest in differentiating their stuff but consumers seem to have a need for it as well. This is exactly the ‘value add’ proposition that’s being discussed.

Goodness. It's hard not to cringe at the thought of someone paying a premium for a stone apparently found on an auspicious day in a Spirit Cave in Africa. I would never have guessed that might be something someone would value, or indeed a claim someone might believe, which I know is unfair of me: I have no proof that it's not true, after all!

I would pay a premium for a stone cut by Yoram or Paul personally.
I would not, however, pay a premium for Canadian stone.
I wouldn't care when a stone was found, but I might be interested in knowing where. Certainly place of origin is sometimes a very important and valuable part of stone's pedigree.

You've brought up an interesting point - how much information should be shared to be considered a "complete" disclosure? I assume that would be partly determined by the niche of the market a vendor decides to target, which goes right back to Jeff's point about not trying to be everything for everyone... I suppose at the end of the day I couldn't say what value-adds I consistently value! That's treating them like pizza toppings - $250 for place of origin, $300 for time of origin, $500 for who/what cut it... and even then there'd be a number of details that the consumer has no way to verify...

Well, now I really don't know what to think.

 

[Huldak]

Yssie, would you mind saying why would you pay more for a stone cut by Yoram? Superior cutting? Personal regard? Just looking to learn why this might be preferable as I'm choosing my own diamond. Thanks.

 

[yssie]

Yssie, would you mind saying why would you pay more for a stone cut by Yoram? Superior cutting? Personal regard? Just looking to learn why this might be preferable as I'm choosing my own diamond. Thanks.

Strictly for the cachet of owning one, because they're people I have a lot of respect for.

I'm quite sure that it wouldn't be visibly or practically superior in any "traditional" way - better cut, prettier, more sparkly - because I'm quite sure they take pains to ensure all stones associated with their names are beautifully cut to the same painstaking parameters

 

[Huldak]

Thank you - very helpful and apologies for the threadjack.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Really great topic with a lot of astute commentary so far. Jeff laid out a really good historical perspective. Since I have been in the business about the same amount of time, I have seen the “before and after” picture in much the same way. I began my career in the time before the internet and have been an active participant in the emergence of e-commerce in the diamond and jewelry industry.

Like it has for other industries, the internet has brought about a sea change for diamonds and jewelry and has empowered the consumer like never before. Clearly, every jeweler has had to adapt or be pushed to the margins and even completely out of business. But adaptation does not necessarily mean a full embrace of e-commerce.

I share Neil's perspective about the many fine traditional jewelers who have always done business the old fashioned way. Give great service, provide a quality product, and (as Karl mentions) do good things in the community. Working from such a set of core values will always be necessary for success, both online or offline.

I have heard (and happen to subscribe to) the theory that the internet has simply forced many businesses to return to traditional values. Online companies that want to sell expensive items to remote customers are scrutinized heavily for their reputation, the information they provide, their policies, and even their social responsibility. And so it should be.

For a new generation of diamond and jewelry buyers the focus is on transparency and value. Young people want to understand the value proposition clearly and determine where they will get the best value for their particular needs. It’s certainly NOT all about price. And that fact gives every business, both online or brick and mortar, an opportunity to create a compelling value proposition and to succeed. As always, they must be able to understand and relate to their target audience and their priorities, and the tools they are using to decide on the products to buy and the merchants to buy from.

The bar has been raised. For many it has been a difficult bar. Most traditional jewelers are small to very small operations without IT departments. Therefore many have found it difficult to implement successful e-commerce operations so far. But a great number of them have adapted, improved, and found a way to compete in their own way in a new and changing landscape.

In 2013 we still tend to think in terms e-commerce vs brick and mortar. But there is a big convergence taking place. A better way to think of e-commerce is simply a new sales channel. One of the realities is that the vast majority of the consumer population prefer to buy local when it comes to expensive and symbolically important purchases such as diamond wedding rings.

There is more than enough room for traditional jewelers. But everyone, I mean everyone, must be adaptive in this new age.

 

[yssie]

Really great topic with a lot of astute commentary so far. Jeff laid out a really good historical perspective. Since I have been in the business about the same amount of time, I have seen the “before and after” picture in much the same way. I began my career in the time before the internet and have been an active participant in the emergence of e-commerce in the diamond and jewelry industry.

Like it has for other industries, the internet has brought about a sea change for diamonds and jewelry and has empowered the consumer like never before. Clearly, every jeweler has had to adapt or be pushed to the margins and even completely out of business. But adaptation does not necessarily mean a full embrace of e-commerce.

I share Neil's perspective about the many fine traditional jewelers who have always done business the old fashioned way. Give great service, provide a quality product, and (as Karl mentions) do good things in the community. Working from such a set of core values will always be necessary for success, both online or offline.

I have heard (and happen to subscribe to) the theory that the internet has simply forced many businesses to return to traditional values. Online companies that want to sell expensive items to remote customers are scrutinized heavily for their reputation, the information they provide, their policies, and even their social responsibility. And so it should be.

For a new generation of diamond and jewelry buyers the focus is on transparency and value. Young people want to understand the value proposition clearly and determine where they will get the best value for their particular needs. It’s certainly NOT all about price. And that fact gives every business, both online or brick and mortar, an opportunity to create a compelling value proposition and to succeed. As always, they must be able to understand and relate to their target audience and their priorities, and the tools they are using to decide on the products to buy and the merchants to buy from.

The bar has been raised. For many it has been a difficult bar. Most traditional jewelers are small to very small operations without IT departments. Therefore many have found it difficult to implement successful e-commerce operations so far. But a great number of them have adapted, improved, and found a way to compete in their own way in a new and changing landscape.

In 2013 we still tend to think in terms e-commerce vs brick and mortar. But there is a big convergence taking place. A better way to think of e-commerce is simply a new sales channel. One of the realities is that the vast majority of the consumer population prefer to buy local when it comes to expensive and symbolically important purchases such as diamond wedding rings.

There is more than enough room for traditional jewelers. But everyone, I mean everyone, must be adaptive in this new age.

The PS blog this week features an interesting story - BN marketing samples in Nordstrom, but you still have to buy online. The sort of convergence you brought up, just going the other way - apparently even the gorilla of internet diamond sales sees value in permitting customers some personal interaction with sales reps and the pieces themselves!

 

[Texas Leaguer]

Diagem,

What an interesting and on point discussion on transparency and added value.
I'd like to know where everyone thinks the line is drawn in terms of transparency when it come to the vendors on this board and where it should be.


1) Should we as consumers be educated on the difference between a retailer owning a polishing house and cutting their own diamonds(almost none do) versus what most do in selecting inventory from a polishing house that sells wholesale to retailors who then rebrand it their own?

2) Should we as consumers be aware of the level of input and intellectual material that was contributed by vendors who have rebranded your fancy cuts (like your OMC cushions) and how much of it was your input versus theirs?

3) Should we as consumers be aware of how much PS vendors compensate Pricescope for being advertisers here and how much influence that entitles them in the moderation of these forums?

I think almost everyone would admit in business too much transparency is detrimental especially in the diamond business. For example if we asked every PS vendor to show us invoices to know their cost price that would be going to far, but how much transparency is enough?

Very good questions Fineline. As your last statement suggests, there is a limit to the amount of disclosure that should be expected of any business. At some level they have a clear right to protect their self interests.

However, the internet has served to pierce a veil of secrecy that has been pervasive and excessive in the jewelry industry. And that is a good thing.

We think transparency should be carried to the extent necessary to provide consumers with actionable information. In that regard, many aspects of marketing, product production or procurement, or other business activities are not generally relevant to the consumer’s decision-making. (Although they may be interesting to select consumers and also to competitors!)

So, as long as you are disclosing pertinent and accurate information about the products, and NOT simply generating marketing spin that cannot be supported by verifiable facts, you have pretty much done your job protecting the consumer and enabling them to make wise decisions.

Ironically, for years too many companies have bought into the idea that the veil of secrecy helped them make money. It actually has just the opposite effect. If customers cannot get comfortable that they know the facts or get the feeling that something is being withheld, they have a very hard time pulling the trigger. We recently created a new page on our site for this very reason. Though we have always had detailed information on our site about our A CUT ABOVE diamonds, it was somewhat scattered about the site. We pulled all of the info together in one place detailing all the qualifications and specifications for the brand.

With good information now SO readily available to consumers, companies that do not do their best to demystify their offerings will find themselves with a lot of “be backs”. The days of the "wizard behind the curtain" or the "secret sauce" are gone. They went out with the turn of the new millenium.

 

[Texas Leaguer]

The PS blog this week features an interesting story - BN marketing samples in Nordstrom, but you still have to buy online. The sort of convergence you brought up, just going the other way - apparently even the gorilla of internet diamond sales sees value in permitting customers some personal interaction with sales reps and the pieces themselves!

That is interesting, it surely helps Bluenile, one has to wonder though what Nordstrom's get out of the deal if they are not selling to consumers directly.

That is interesting Yssie.

As the saying goes "inter dependence" is better than "independence".

The e-commerce version of the concept is called "Bricks and Clicks" !

 

[diagem]

Diagem,

What an interesting and on point discussion on transparency and added value.
I'd like to know where everyone thinks the line is drawn in terms of transparency when it come to the vendors on this board and where it should be.


1) Should we as consumers be educated on the difference between a retailer owning a polishing house and cutting their own diamonds(almost none do) versus what most do in selecting inventory from a polishing house that sells wholesale to retailors who then rebrand it their own?

2) Should we as consumers be aware of the level of input and intellectual material that was contributed by vendors who have rebranded your fancy cuts (like your OMC cushions) and how much of it was your input versus theirs?

3) Should we as consumers be aware of how much PS vendors compensate Pricescope for being advertisers here and how much influence that entitles them in the moderation of these forums?

I think almost everyone would admit in business too much transparency is detrimental especially in the diamond business. For example if we asked every PS vendor to show us invoices to know their cost price that would be going to far, but how much transparency is enough?

You are asking a simple question with a plurality of agenda's..., but your initial question is "but how much transparency is enough?"

I say, let us start with transparency in this industry..., we are too backed up. 
This primitive way of thinking and/or practicing is causing destructive actions which will be impossible to repair/reverse in certain Historic manufacturing centers. We are witnessing a great power struggle between different geographical manufacturing centers. London DTC moving operations to Botswana, Dubai attracting mega-entities to move from old existing centers each for the opposite reasons. Banks are threatening to exit (one already left and more are contemplating) with their financing due to lack of transparency and speculative primitive business practices.
If we don't getting our act together I am afraid in a couple of years from now a huge percentage of professionals will be looking for other livelihoods. Simple as that!!

Now let me answer your question in your divisions although given the nature of your questions proves transparency on PS is alive and ticking

1) there are too many scenarios to give a simple answer to such a question but it should be understood that there are different costs involved if you just pick selectively from a pool of existing rocks vs. produce your own line of rocks..., how much you might ask? Well it would depend on the product and the added value components you as a potential client agree with. But it should be easily identifiable otherwise who would be willing to pay premiums on specifics?  

2) I would prefer you and others readers leave my personal involvement out of such discussions, by you and other readers specifying my works limits my freedom to participate in such discussions due to forum rules. My suggestions to readers who would like genuine feedback from "trade" professionals should limit identifying subjects by entity. Connecting entities to subjects limit our input possibilities. 
To your question..., any questions relating light performance cuts and/or designs will be answered by me (and I believe by my colleagues) openly and freely, a lot of my beginnings/story are open and transparently documented on PS so no secrets here..., you can digg and prety much locate any queries you might have on the subject. 
I can clearly say I will be more than happy to pass my knowledge accumulated over the years on light performance cuts to any professionals  interested in learning.
My moto is "the more the merrier"...., it's clearly a win-win sittuation for all especially the way the wind is blowing in the industry. 

3) since we are participating on the PriceScope forum, I will give the PS staff the first option to comment if they wish to. I can't identify a relevance, sorry.

 

[diagem]

Speak of the devil..., Rapaport is joining in, kinda

http://www.diamonds.net/News/NewsIt...o+Adopt+Transparency+Will+Win+Young+Consumers