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A Rookie Wants to Know, What Would You Do?

sth1971

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
12
so i've been lurking in the forums for the past few weeks, and I THINK i know what i want, but there are a ridiculous amount of variables when selecting the perfect diamond. and every time i think i've found the one, i learn something in these forums that makes me question myself.

so with that, i put my future (and that of my fiance's) in your collective hands...

here's what I THINK i want: RBC, 2.20-2.5 carat, H-I color, excellent cut, VS1-VS2, VG-EX in P&S. my budget is $30-35k, but in reality when you factor in the ring and the proposal, i'd like to keep it closer to $30-33k. (UNLESS it's the most perfect diamond known to man.)

some other questions:
-going with an I color, should i go with some fluorescence to whiten it up?
-i like the idea of going with JA, b/c of their policies and ability to see the rings both online and here in NYC. some of the other online dealers make me nervous with their shorter returns. i like some stuff on BGD, but it's hard to pull the trigger on something you can't even see.
-B&M/Diamond District: i'm probably the worst negotiator in the world (which is also why i like the idea of JA), so what's my best negotiation tactic going into a store? the first thing they're going to ask is what's my budget, how do i avoid answering that question, yet being able to look at the diamonds i want to see? b/c no two diamonds are alike, how do i negotiate the price other than by saying "i want to pay less"? makes it hard to leverage one guy over another, like car dealers.
-H&A: is it worth it? i really prefer GIA over AGS (should I?), and is there any benefit to H&A when it's not under idealscope? does it make the ring any more special? or is it all marketing?

thank you all! i look forward to your input and suggestions!!!
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
21,130
sth1971|1316208808|3019097 said:
so i've been lurking in the forums for the past few weeks, and I THINK i know what i want, but there are a ridiculous amount of variables when selecting the perfect diamond. and every time i think i've found the one, i learn something in these forums that makes me question myself.

so with that, i put my future (and that of my fiance's) in your collective hands...

here's what I THINK i want: RBC, 2.20-2.5 carat, H-I color, excellent cut, VS1-VS2, VG-EX in P&S. my budget is $30-35k, but in reality when you factor in the ring and the proposal, i'd like to keep it closer to $30-33k. (UNLESS it's the most perfect diamond known to man.)

some other questions:
-going with an I color, should i go with some fluorescence to whiten it up? depends on your eyes and what metal you're setting it in.. I *strongly* recommend going out to look at some stones in-person, see how YOU feel about colour. Some people are more sensitive than others, some people care more than others. Do you have a Hearts on Fire dealer nearby, or a Jared (check out their Peerless selection)?
-i like the idea of going with JA, b/c of their policies and ability to see the rings both online and here in NYC. some of the other online dealers make me nervous with their shorter returns. i like some stuff on BGD, but it's hard to pull the trigger on something you can't even see. There's always the option (again, one I strongly recommend) of having the stone you've zeroed in on shipped out to you to inspect in-person before having it set. But yeah, nice to be able to see it without paying for it and waiting for it to be shipped - or having to go to a local appraiser to see it!
-B&M/Diamond District: i'm probably the worst negotiator in the world (which is also why i like the idea of JA), so what's my best negotiation tactic going into a store? the first thing they're going to ask is what's my budget, how do i avoid answering that question, yet being able to look at the diamonds i want to see? b/c no two diamonds are alike, how do i negotiate the price other than by saying "i want to pay less"? makes it hard to leverage one guy over another, like car dealers. Hmm. Be prepared to actually just walk away? ;)) I'd suggest leaving your wallet at home on your first trip, stave off any impulses ::)
-H&A: is it worth it? i really prefer GIA over AGS (should I?), and is there any benefit to H&A when it's not under idealscope? does it make the ring any more special? or is it all marketing? Lots of threads here asking all sorts of questions about H&A - do a PriceScope search when you've got an hour (or several) to kill. We've got all sorts on here - with a huge range of opinions on all sorts of related subjects... again, if you have a HoF dealer nearby you can see some H&As for yourself.

thank you all! i look forward to your input and suggestions!!!
 

sth1971

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
12
here are a few diamonds i've got my eye on and wanted to get a few second opinions. if there are any others you see, please post!thanks in advance for your help!

2.53 Carat I-VS2 Ideal Cut Round Diamond
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1372123.asp
Certificate: GIA
Depth: 61.2%
Table: 56.0%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Girdle: Thin to medium
Culet:
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 8.80*8.84*5.40
HCA: 1.7
-i can't see any of the inclusions in the photo. assuming that's eye clean?
-should i be concerned about the feather along the perimeter?

2.25 Carat I-VS1 Hearts & Arrows Ideal Cut Round Diamond
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1383448.asp
Certificate: AGS
Depth: 62.0%
Table: 56.4%
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Girdle: Thin to medium
Culet: None
Fluorescence: Negligible
Measurements: 8.40*8.44*5.21
Crown Angle: 34.7
Crown %: 15.10
Pavilion Angle: 41.0
Pavilion %: 43.40
HCA: 2.0
-this diamond looks amazing, but i'm reluctant to buy AGS--should i be? will that hurt future value?
-should i be concerned about the avg HCA?

2.40 Carat I-VS2 Ideal Cut Round Diamond
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1396806.asp
Certificate: GIA
Depth: 62.0%
Table: 55.0%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Girdle: Thin to slightly thick
Culet:
Fluorescence: Faint
Measurements: 8.60*8.66*5.35
HCA: 4.8
-i'm intruiged by this stone by it's preceived value, but am confused by the inclusions i see in the picture and the inclusions i see on the certificate. they don't seem to match up. is that just dirt/dust i see?
-concerned about the low HCA score. should i be?
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
sth1971|1316320779|3019893 said:
here are a few diamonds i've got my eye on and wanted to get a few second opinions. if there are any others you see, please post!thanks in advance for your help!

2.53 Carat I-VS2 Ideal Cut Round Diamond
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1372123.asp
Certificate: GIA
Depth: 61.2%
Table: 56.0%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Girdle: Thin to medium
Culet:
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 8.80*8.84*5.40
HCA: 1.7
-i can't see any of the inclusions in the photo. assuming that's eye clean?
-should i be concerned about the feather along the perimeter?
I think this is one with the best balance of stats and size.
You need to ask about it's eyeclean status. Can't assume from a plot. Also ask if the feather breaks the surface or is a danger in any way. If it all checks out get an Idealscope.
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
21,130
sth1971|1316320779|3019893 said:
here are a few diamonds i've got my eye on and wanted to get a few second opinions. if there are any others you see, please post!thanks in advance for your help!

2.53 Carat I-VS2 Ideal Cut Round Diamond
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1372123.asp
Certificate: GIA
Depth: 61.2%
Table: 56.0%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Girdle: Thin to medium
Culet:
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 8.80*8.84*5.40
HCA: 1.7
-i can't see any of the inclusions in the photo. assuming that's eye clean?
No. Decide what "eyeclean" means to you (clean from 12" faceup? 6"? from the sides as well?) and have JA vet the stone to your specifications.
-should i be concerned about the feather along the perimeter?
In a reputably graded (AGS, GIA in the US) VS2 of this size I would not be, no, even if it was the grade-making inclusion, which it is not (inclusions listed on report from most to least "severe" as judged under a 10x loupe, so the clouds are deemed "worse" than the feather in this stone)

Will be a very bright stone - lots of white light return in all sorts of lighting types. In spotlights all stones show coloured light, in diffuse office light all stones will be white, in in-between types of lights different stones of same size w/ different types of proportions (high crown, shallow crown, etc) will err toward white or colour... this one will show less coloured light in these in-between types of lights than a higher-crown type. If you know you like to see lots of white light this is a great pick, if you like coloured light skip this one.

2.25 Carat I-VS1 Hearts & Arrows Ideal Cut Round Diamond
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS1-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1383448.asp
Certificate: AGS
Depth: 62.0%
Table: 56.4%
Polish: Ideal
Symmetry: Ideal
Girdle: Thin to medium
Culet: None
Fluorescence: Negligible
Measurements: 8.40*8.44*5.21
Crown Angle: 34.7
Crown %: 15.10
Pavilion Angle: 41.0
Pavilion %: 43.40
HCA: 2.0
-this diamond looks amazing, but i'm reluctant to buy AGS--should i be? will that hurt future value?
No worries
-should i be concerned about the avg HCA?
HCA is a blunt weeding tool only - no good for selection, and you more info (IS, actual photo) that gives you more info than HCA anyway, so no, absolutely no worries

I like this one best by far. Prefer the higher crown that yields potential for more coloured light return (I personally like to see lots of colour), would assume artifacts in hearts photo due to unevenness during photography. Don't let the pale pink under the table in the IS scare you off - the IS is strictly a one eyed scope, but you'll be looking at it with two eyes!

2.40 Carat I-VS2 Ideal Cut Round Diamond
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1396806.asp
Certificate: GIA
Depth: 62.0%
Table: 55.0%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Girdle: Thin to slightly thick
Culet:
Fluorescence: Faint
Measurements: 8.60*8.66*5.35
HCA: 4.8
-i'm intruiged by this stone by it's preceived value, but am confused by the inclusions i see in the picture and the inclusions i see on the certificate. they don't seem to match up. is that just dirt/dust i see?
They look to to me - the crystal in the middle of the table, and the bogeys just table-side of the upper girdle pair on the L side of the JA photo... lots of the strange black/grey asymmetric chunks you're seeing aren't inclusions, they're virtual facets created by the lack of optical symmetry within the stone, if that's what you mean.
-concerned about the low HCA score. should i be?
Not so much about low HCA as about why the HCA is so low - considerably steep pav + low optical symmetry.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Yssie, I have a question. The first stone is geared toward white light instead of colored. Is this something the average person will really be able to tell? Enough of a difference to overcome .4mm of size. .24 carats of weight. And a thousand dollars more spent on the stone.

I really do get what you are saying... particularly as I am a person who LOVES the colored light. But isn't it hairsplitting a bit when you are talking this level of precision cutting and ideal light return either way... especially when compared to the other differences in the stones?

I mean, I know that when you are already spending 32K another one thousand dollars seems like a drop in the bucket (and OMG did that logic drive up my wedding budget week by week-- SURE we'll have 5 wines offered instead of 3 since it's ONLY a thousand dollars difference!)
but the reality is its a thousand dollars MORE for a smaller stone... all because one stone leans toward one TYPE of light other than another.

NOT that it's not VERY IMPORTANT to point out the difference. I think it's brilliant you KNOW that cause I can't look at stats and do what you do. BUT my point is... when is it hairsplitting and when it IS hairsplitting SHOULDN'T we tell the posters that OUR preference might be one (colored light, smaller stone, more money) but that their decision EITHER WAY will yield them a fabulous stone. Instead of stating what our personal preferences are with light return types and things and, without meaning to perhaps, skew the decision to OUR preference instead of just educating the posters and then letting them make the best decision for them... once it get's down to the hairsplitting of course, not before.

This is a philosophical question hon. I KNOW the OP here asked what WE would do. So of course our preferences are what he is asking for. And for the record. I'd want the bigger stone, less money spent (cause you know... that wedding is coming up!), and more white light in this case.

Just asking. 8)
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
21,130
Oy, fair enough!

I see the difference. I know I see the difference - I once chose the spreadier stone despite knowing I prefer colour (um. Two iterations ago?) thinking it was all just theory in someone's book, and it drove me bananas. So now I'm super careful to warn others about those issues - going both ways, and now I (and my hypothetical budget) are hypersensitive to it...

sth - Gypsy is of course correct, ultimately it is up to what you prefer and what your priorities are, and how you choose to meld the two! And I'll add my own disclaimer here: It's easy to nitpick and waltz around what's coming out of the wallet when it's someone else's money 8) Ultimately you're not going to wind up with a flat out ugly stone with any of the three - though I'd eschew the third, given two better options. So if you feel that the larger stone for less is the better way to spend your money, you can be sure it'll be a beautiful stone! A beautiful stone with one "type" of light return instead of another, certainly - there's no right or wrong answer here, neither type (erring toward white or colour in in-between lighting types) is objectively better than the other, just personal preference (if YOU A-notice, B-care, C-care to indulge it)

Edited* can't spell.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
((HUGS)) Yssie. 8)
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
21,130
::)
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
10,463
sth1971|1316320779|3019893 said:
2.40 Carat I-VS2 Ideal Cut Round Diamond
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1396806.asp
Certificate: GIA
Depth: 62.0%
Table: 55.0%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Girdle: Thin to slightly thick
Culet:
Fluorescence: Faint
Measurements: 8.60*8.66*5.35
HCA: 4.8
-i'm intruiged by this stone by it's preceived value, but am confused by the inclusions i see in the picture and the inclusions i see on the certificate. they don't seem to match up. is that just dirt/dust i see?
-concerned about the low HCA score. should i be?
The hca is right, this one is not so great.
That combo will most likely face up 1 color grade below its lab grade.
 

Karl_K

Super_Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Aug 4, 2008
Messages
10,463
Yssie|1316324968|3019921 said:
sth1971|1316320779|3019893 said:
here are a few diamonds i've got my eye on and wanted to get a few second opinions. if there are any others you see, please post!thanks in advance for your help!

2.53 Carat I-VS2 Ideal Cut Round Diamond
http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/I-VS2-Ideal-Cut-Round-Diamond-1372123.asp
Certificate: GIA
Depth: 61.2%
Table: 56.0%
Polish: Excellent
Symmetry: Excellent
Girdle: Thin to medium
Culet:
Fluorescence: None
Measurements: 8.80*8.84*5.40
HCA: 1.7
-i can't see any of the inclusions in the photo. assuming that's eye clean?
No. Decide what "eyeclean" means to you (clean from 12" faceup? 6"? from the sides as well?) and have JA vet the stone to your specifications.
-should i be concerned about the feather along the perimeter?
In a reputably graded (AGS, GIA in the US) VS2 of this size I would not be, no, even if it was the grade-making inclusion, which it is not (inclusions listed on report from most to least "severe" as judged under a 10x loupe, so the clouds are deemed "worse" than the feather in this stone)

Will be a very bright stone - lots of white light return in all sorts of lighting types. In spotlights all stones show coloured light, in diffuse office light all stones will be white, in in-between types of lights different stones of same size w/ different types of proportions (high crown, shallow crown, etc) will err toward white or colour... this one will show less coloured light in these in-between types of lights than a higher-crown type. If you know you like to see lots of white light this is a great pick, if you like coloured light skip this one.
in my opinion Yssie is correct and this is a fair assessment of the diamond.
What we can not tell you is if you may like this one better.
But a more balanced stone has a better chance of appealing to a wide range of people.
If someone viewed this one and a classic super-ideal for 2-3 days in their day to day environment and liked it better I would say congrates and not be shocked.
However not many people can afford to do that so there are safer options.
 

sth1971

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
12
thanks for all your help, and to MRS W for suggesting White Flash. (i'm looking for a something simple like a tiffany solitare setting.)

my previous interest in, and subsequent vetting by PS, of the 2.25 Carat I-VS1 Hearts & Arrows Ideal Cut Round Diamond from JA has now been potentially replaced with this little dandy from WF:

2.301 ct I VS2 A CUT ABOVE® Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal Round
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2561980.htm
Depth % 61.8
Table % 55.7
Crown Angle 34.8
Pavilion Angle 40.9
Crown % 15.3
Lower Girdle % 78.0
Measurements 8.46x8.51x5.24
Culet Pointed
Fluorescence Negligible
Girdle Thin to Medium Faceted
HCA: 1.8
-what do you think of this diamons vs the H&A from JA? http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/...1383448.asp?gid=GAN&pid=k244266&pname=VigLink
-the WF looks like a much better value: it's .05 bigger yet it's over $3k cheaper
-am i missing something??
-i know this is very subjective, but am i better off spenging a little bit more money to go up .2 to the 2.53 from JA mentioned above? (i think i just want to be able to give my fiance a 2.5; is .2 a big difference in appearance?)
 

Mrs W

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Sep 21, 2008
Messages
810
swingirl|1316387559|3020320 said:
The ACA is a beautiful stone! Cheaper, larger. What's not to love?
My thoughts exactly! I personally would pass on the 2.5, it won't be much increase IRL off paper and you can pocket some extra money.

Do you know what type of setting she would want? You should find out, if its a halo setting you could even get away with getting a 2ct...
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
21,130
sth1971|1316381329|3020286 said:
thanks for all your help, and to MRS W for suggesting White Flash. (i'm looking for a something simple like a tiffany solitare setting.)

my previous interest in, and subsequent vetting by PS, of the 2.25 Carat I-VS1 Hearts & Arrows Ideal Cut Round Diamond from JA has now been potentially replaced with this little dandy from WF:

2.301 ct I VS2 A CUT ABOVE® Hearts and Arrows Super Ideal Round
https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-2561980.htm
Depth % 61.8
Table % 55.7
Crown Angle 34.8
Pavilion Angle 40.9
Crown % 15.3
Lower Girdle % 78.0
Measurements 8.46x8.51x5.24
Culet Pointed
Fluorescence Negligible
Girdle Thin to Medium Faceted
HCA: 1.8
-what do you think of this diamons vs the H&A from JA? http://www.jamesallen.com/diamonds/...1383448.asp?gid=GAN&pid=k244266&pname=VigLink
-the WF looks like a much better value: it's .05 bigger yet it's over $3k cheaper
-am i missing something??
-i know this is very subjective, but am i better off spenging a little bit more money to go up .2 to the 2.53 from JA mentioned above? (i think i just want to be able to give my fiance a 2.5; is .2 a big difference in appearance?)
Not the ct weight, but the mm spread of the stones you're comparing - 8.4mm vs 8.8mm. Yes, IMO that is a clear and visible and memorable difference, even once set. If size is important to you then this should definitely factor into your considerations.
 

sth1971

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
12
thanks yssie for your imput on the size difference. what do you think of the 2.3 just mentioned from WF vs the 2.25 from JA? is there a reason it's priced significantly lower? am i missing something?

we're looking at a Tiffany style solitare.

right now, i'm considering this one from WF in platinum:
http://www.whiteflash.com/engagemen...fany-style-solitaire-engagement-ring-1415.htm

what do you think? any experience with this type of ring/setting?

thanks!

thumbnailCA562TGW.jpg
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
Whiteflash stone gets another vote here.

But since no one's asked you.

Before you spend all that money.

Are you POSITIVE she wants a round.

Are you positive she wants a 2+ carat round.

And are you sure she loves that setting.

And if you are... please tell us how you know.

And if it were me... I'd want a more unique setting.
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
21,130
sth1971|1316393119|3020371 said:
thanks yssie for your imput on the size difference. what do you think of the 2.3 just mentioned from WF vs the 2.25 from JA? is there a reason it's priced significantly lower? am i missing something?

VS2 vs VS1... comparing pricing between vendors can be really tricky - different policies, cut at different times from differently priced rough, posted to the websites at different times, been sitting in inventory for different amounts of time... I wouldn't worry about missing something, just take it as the difference between VS2 and VS1 - in this case I don't see anything to worry about! Of the two I pick the WF too - better upgrade/buyback policies on their branded ACAs and ESs than JA, and a gorgeous stone - VS2 should be eyeclean, you can have WF confirm that it meets your specific requirements.

we're looking at a Tiffany style solitare.

right now, i'm considering this one from WF in platinum:
http://www.whiteflash.com/engagemen...fany-style-solitaire-engagement-ring-1415.htm

what do you think? any experience with this type of ring/setting?

It's pretty, I have no experience myself though. Wedding ring won't sit flush w/ the protruding doughnut, if that matters to you (her).

thanks!
 

sth1971

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
12
yes, i'm positive she wants a round. as for the size she doesn't really care about the size--but she always lights up when i show her some of the diamonds i'm looking at. and we went to several jewelry stores to looks at some settings together. in fact, i sent her this setting this afternoon and she said it looked gorgeous.

i just want to make sure i'm getting her the best all-around diamond for my money since she said she'll never upgrade to a different stone.

right now i'm leaning toward the 2.3 from WF. i think it looks perfect. but, do you think trying to find a 2.5ish stone that's not as perfect, for similar or a little bit more money is the better way to go? i just want her to be proud when showing off the ring to friends and famiy.
 

Gypsy

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 8, 2005
Messages
40,198
sth1971|1316399995|3020439 said:
yes, i'm positive she wants a round. as for the size she doesn't really care about the size--but she always lights up when i show her some of the diamonds i'm looking at. and we went to several jewelry stores to looks at some settings together. in fact, i sent her this setting this afternoon and she said it looked gorgeous.

i just want to make sure i'm getting her the best all-around diamond for my money since she said she'll never upgrade to a different stone.

right now i'm leaning toward the 2.3 from WF. i think it looks perfect. but, do you think trying to find a 2.5ish stone that's not as perfect, for similar or a little bit more money is the better way to go? i just want her to be proud when showing off the ring to friends and famiy.

That diamond will make her proud. I think it's lovely and I don't see anything that says she needs 2.5 carats.

If she loves the setting... good for you. So happy you are checking with her.
 

sth1971

Rough_Rock
Joined
Sep 15, 2011
Messages
12
my only concern now is that i didnt realize the wedding band wont sit flush against the ring b/c of the doughnut. any suggestions?
 

mrssalvo

Super_Ideal_Rock
Joined
Jan 3, 2005
Messages
19,132
The Vatche Caroline gets my vote. Wedding band will sit flush and it's just a gorgeous solitaire with a twist!!
 

slg47

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Apr 4, 2010
Messages
9,667
sth1971|1316401842|3020458 said:
my only concern now is that i didnt realize the wedding band wont sit flush against the ring b/c of the doughnut. any suggestions?
are you sure she wants it to sit flush?

I really like both solitaires that Gypsy posted.
 
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