7ct asscher

[Phoenix]

Hello all,

I've found this secondhand 7ct asscher. I don't know much about asschers and can read up. In the meantime, I'd really appreciate some advice and input.

There's not much information on the stone (it does NOT come with a GIA or AGS or HRD cert or anything like that, only an in-house appraisal), though I'm trying to get as much infor as possible for the vendor. The vendor is a reputable vendor. They have told me that:

1) the stone is approx G-H colour
2) clarity is estimated to be Si2 (I'm trying to ask vendor if this has taken into account the chip or is it just based on the "typical" inclusions like crystals, clouds etc). This chip is under one of the sides and can be seen quite clearly from the first pic. I don't know if this chip can be polished out or not.
3) it looks to me like it's an old cut (slightly larger culet), though that may not necessarily be the case - am just making a wild guess.

Is there anything that jumps out at you? In particular, do you think a chip like this can be polished out, without endangering the stone/ causing it to crack or chip further?

What kind of cut do you think it is? I mean, what kind of Asscher is it; and also, judging from the pics, might you be able to decipher its optical performance?

Finally, the price is approx $70k. Is it a fair "value" - just based on the infor here? Would it be possible to impute such a value? If not, what other information do I need to ask the vendor?

Thanks very much.

 

[Amys Bling]

That is a stunning stone! I really don't know much about asschers, maybe you rould be able to take it to an appraiser and get their input??

 

[kelpie]

It does look like one of the originals which makes it quite the collector's piece. I can't see the chip but I would ask the seller if they are willing to remove it from the setting for repolishing and then certification if you pay the cost. Repolishing is usually 150/carat (possible they'll want a premium for the large size) and the certification can't be more than a few hundred. I think the stone looks really nice. I'm not sure on the price though...I think a while back dover jewelry was selling a similar but VS stone for about 45-55k. This one is cut better though. I suppose the real question is what you value it as because stones like that are hard to come by.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

It does look beautiful! Not sure if I am seeing the chip correctly or not, but is it quite large? If it is, it might not simply polish out. It might need recutting. But Karl is the asscher expert around here and hopefully he will see this post soon! I think the secondhand market is a good place to find a larger stone. Hopefully the SI2 is due to the chip, because you wouldn't want SI2 inclusions inside an asscher. I don't think anyone can really evaluate the price unless it can be determined what would have to happen to the chip.

 

[denverappraiser]

This is a classic example of where you would benefit by a real appraisal from a real appraiser. I would fully expect any offer to be contingent on getting it GIA graded and the results coming out acceptably but this really isn’t difficult to arrange. Your appraiser should be able to help. How to address the chip is a complicated question and requires an in person inspection by an expert. It can surely be repaired but at a cost and at some risk. Seek out professional assistance. There’s a lot of money at stake.

 

[diamondseeker2006]

Totally agree about appraisal and GIA, but she is in a different country and hasn't said what country the ring is in, so it may not be as easy as it would be for us here.

 

[AmeliaG]

Wow, nice Asscher! I can't help you much but just wanted to say how lovely it looks on your hand.

 

[Phoenix]

Thank you all for your prompt replies & input.

Neil, unfortunately, Diamondseeker is right, the ring is in a different country from where I live, so as much as I'd like to have an IA look at it, I can't! So in the meantime, all I have is the pics and infor from the vendor (as mentioned it's a reputable vendor, so I'd think I could place some reliance on their representations - or at least I hope).

Diamondseeker, the chip can be seen in the first pic if you blow it up using Picasa. I agree, I do hope Karl will see this and chime in too.

Kelpie, when was that? I stalk that site all the time, never seen anything like it. Do you happen to remember the colour and clarity?

Amelia, it's not my hand! , but thank you.

 

[Phoenix]

It does look beautiful! Not sure if I am seeing the chip correctly or not, but is it quite large? If it is, it might not simply polish out. It might need recutting. But Karl is the asscher expert around here and hopefully he will see this post soon! I think the secondhand market is a good place to find a larger stone. Hopefully the SI2 is due to the chip, because you wouldn't want SI2 inclusions inside an asscher. I don't think anyone can really evaluate the price unless it can be determined what would have to happen to the chip.

Could you tell me what you mean by this? Do you mean you wouldn't want the stone to be graded Si2/ have Si2 inclusions (even before taking into account the chip) and why please?

 

[diamondseeker2006]

You're right! I could see it easily in Picasa and I think it is pretty small!

I would want an asscher or emerald cut to be VS at minimum because you can see the inclusions so much easier in a large non-faceted stone. So if this stone would be a VS1, for example, without the chip, then it would be very desirable to me. I am hoping the SI2 is due solely to the chip. Hopefully the chip could be polished out to some degree. But it is going to be hard to ascertain that without an appraisal.

 

[denverappraiser]

Thank you all for your prompt replies & input.

Neil, unfortunately, Diamondseeker is right, the ring is in a different country from where I live, so as much as I'd like to have an IA look at it, I can't! So in the meantime, all I have is the pics and infor from the vendor (as mentioned it's a reputable vendor, so I'd think I could place some reliance on their representations - or at least I hope).

There are qualified appraisers in other countries as well. I, and I'm sure the other high profile US appraisers, have traveled overseas for an assignment more than once. In an international transaction where even you haven't seen the stone I doubly recommend employing professional assistance.

The seller can, and should, have it submitted to GIA, or perhaps HRD or some other well regarded international lab for inspection anyway. House grading on a chipped SI2 where they're asking $70k is not reasonable. If this is a professional dealer of this kind of goods they are surely aware of this. You can have it examined by your own expert while it's here in the US (with the permission of the seller of course).

Where is it? Where are you? What are the terms and conditions of the sale?

 

[Ninama]

Holy heck... I hope all reports on that baby are favorable. Wow!

 

[kelpie]

The dover one may have been a year or two ago. I checked and didn't find it. It was set into onyx then surrounded by a diamond halo and I think it was house graded somewhere like G-I and VS1 or 2. I could be remembering wrong but I think it was 7cts. It was kind of glassy though, the one you are considering appears more lively.

 

[kelpie]

Wow I found it!

http://www.doverjewelry.com/catalog/art_deco_engagement_rings/estate_art_deco_780cts_emerald_cut_diamond_platinum_ring.html

 

[dragonfly411]

That is a gorgeous stone!

 

[Phoenix]

Thank you all for your prompt replies & input.

Neil, unfortunately, Diamondseeker is right, the ring is in a different country from where I live, so as much as I'd like to have an IA look at it, I can't! So in the meantime, all I have is the pics and infor from the vendor (as mentioned it's a reputable vendor, so I'd think I could place some reliance on their representations - or at least I hope).

There are qualified appraisers in other countries as well. I, and I'm sure the other high profile US appraisers, have traveled overseas for an assignment more than once. In an international transaction where even you haven't seen the stone I doubly recommend employing professional assistance.

The seller can, and should, have it submitted to GIA, or perhaps HRD or some other well regarded international lab for inspection anyway. House grading on a chipped SI2 where they're asking $70k is not reasonable. If this is a professional dealer of this kind of goods they are surely aware of this. You can have it examined by your own expert while it's here in the US (with the permission of the seller of course).

Where is it? Where are you? What are the terms and conditions of the sale?

Neil, thank you for responding again. I spoke to the vendor by telephone and they say that they've only just received the ring recently from the original owner and the owner who's owned this ring for a long time wasn't really that interested in having the stone certified, though the vendor did say that whenever possible, they (the 3rd P vendor, not the actual owner) would submit items to the different well-known labs. They say they've been conservative in their estimate of this stone (and also generally). This Si2's apparently has inclusions including clear/ white crystals that are off-centred (along the sides/ edges of the stones, some small feathers and a cavity. There's no inclusion plot unfortunately. They say that the stone is eye-clean and the inclusions can only be seen with a loupe. I also asked about the colour, they say it's def not tinted and face up very well. I asked abt the cut also and apparently it's an old/ antique asscher (though of course they can't use the name Asscher as in Royal Asscher).

They say in particular that the chip is very miniscule and can easily be polished off.

In view of all this, do you still think the price of $70k is unreasonable? If so, what would be more acceptable, $60k or $50K?

Thank you.

ETA: Let's assume that the stone is, worst case scenario, an I Si2 (colours are so difficult to see on the monitor screen; clarity-wise, I've blown up the pics a few times and I can't really see anything alarming other than what's been represented to me by the vendor), what price or price range would you give to this stone, Neil?

 

[Phoenix]

Holy heck... I hope all reports on that baby are favorable. Wow!

It looks to be a very nice stone, doesn't it?

 

[Phoenix]

Wow I found it!

http://www.doverjewelry.com/catalog/art_deco_engagement_rings/estate_art_deco_780cts_emerald_cut_diamond_platinum_ring.html

Wow, thank you, Kelpie,for pulling out that infor. That's certainly interesting.

 

[yssie]

Not an expert so I won't comment on the stone, but I do know from everything I've seen that you are all about size - are you really going to be satisfied with a 7ct stone that faces up like a 5ct RB? And one that's so much more subtle, with so much less *bling*?

The other is that I remember you recently gave up the hunt for a large stone, bought a ton of other stuff instead, and now here you are again.. it's not my place, but I'll bite anyway and suggest that you figure out exactly what you want and stop settling for other stuff, because you keep going back to the hunt for the big 'un anway! And if that's a big RB specifically - well, I honestly doubt an asscher will scratch that itch, no matter how lovely a specimen.

That said, it does look lovely

 

[Phoenix]

Not an expert so I won't comment on the stone, but I do know from everything I've seen that you are all about size - are you really going to be satisfied with a 7ct stone that faces up like a 5ct RB? And one that's so much more subtle, with so much less *bling*?

The other is that I remember you recently gave up the hunt for a large stone, bought a ton of other stuff instead, and now here you are again.. it's not my place, but I'll bite anyway and suggest that you figure out exactly what you want and stop settling for other stuff, because you keep going back to the hunt for the big 'un anway! And if that's a big RB - well, I honestly doubt an asscher will scratch that itch, no matter how lovely a specimen.

That said, it does look lovely

I understand what you're saying, Yssie. I'm an addict, what can I say?!

The other stuff is not a subsitute for the big FIVE-O, just some things I actually do want (I've had a 3-stone ring for a long time, now it's just bigger, ha ha . Never had a solitaire diamond pendant or a decent bracelet, so why not? ).

Ok, to be totally serious, I understand what you're saying. I do want a big'un. I thought it was a RB, but I tried on an asscher at a local store recently and fell in love with it. Man, that stone is something!!

PLUS, after posting the Travelling Collection thread, I looked at all the pics, looked at all my bling, again and again and realised that I had enough RB's; Time for something different, like an asscher, a cushion, or an EC or an AVC.

AND I've still got the 3ct RB. I can always halo that, right?!

I appreciate your looking out for me, I really do. You're very sweet. HUGS!

ETA: I hope I'm not "all about size"!! I want quality too, I do - I swear!!

 

[Phoenix]

That is a gorgeous stone!

Isn't it?!

 

[yssie]

Whoa! And I thought I used a lot of smileys

Well hey, if you want an asscher, this one turns out to be a good find and it's in budget.. can't fault you for drooling! And nothing wrong with putting size high on the list

 

[Phoenix]

Whoa! And I thought I used a lot of smileys

Well hey, if you want an asscher, this one turns out to be a good find and it's in budget.. can't fault you for drooling! And nothing wrong with putting size high on the list

 

[iota15]

That's one yummy asscher. I had the same concerns as Yssie but if you want an Asscher, that certainly looks like a pretty one. Si2 makes it sooo much more affordable too.

Are they willing to polish out the chip for you? Or will you have to do it?

Why don't you find a reputable appraiser where the stone is located, and ask the vendor to send it there? Or just ask them to send it to GIA. Although my only concern with GIA is that the specs will come out better than what the vendor believes and the price of the stone will hike as a result. If you find and pay for a reputable local appraiser, you may be able to keep the specs to yourself - since you paid for the appraisal. Either way, it should probably get appraised (and photographed about a million more times for us.).

 

[denverappraiser]

Thank you all for your prompt replies & input.

Neil, unfortunately, Diamondseeker is right, the ring is in a different country from where I live, so as much as I'd like to have an IA look at it, I can't! So in the meantime, all I have is the pics and infor from the vendor (as mentioned it's a reputable vendor, so I'd think I could place some reliance on their representations - or at least I hope).

There are qualified appraisers in other countries as well. I, and I'm sure the other high profile US appraisers, have traveled overseas for an assignment more than once. In an international transaction where even you haven't seen the stone I doubly recommend employing professional assistance.

The seller can, and should, have it submitted to GIA, or perhaps HRD or some other well regarded international lab for inspection anyway. House grading on a chipped SI2 where they're asking $70k is not reasonable. If this is a professional dealer of this kind of goods they are surely aware of this. You can have it examined by your own expert while it's here in the US (with the permission of the seller of course).

Where is it? Where are you? What are the terms and conditions of the sale?

Neil, thank you for responding again. I spoke to the vendor by telephone and they say that they've only just received the ring recently from the original owner and the owner who's owned this ring for a long time wasn't really that interested in having the stone certified, though the vendor did say that whenever possible, they (the 3rd P vendor, not the actual owner) would submit items to the different well-known labs. They say they've been conservative in their estimate of this stone (and also generally). This Si2's apparently has inclusions including clear/ white crystals that are off-centred (along the sides/ edges of the stones, some small feathers and a cavity. There's no inclusion plot unfortunately. They say that the stone is eye-clean and the inclusions can only be seen with a loupe. I also asked about the colour, they say it's def not tinted and face up very well. I asked abt the cut also and apparently it's an old/ antique asscher (though of course they can't use the name Asscher as in Royal Asscher).

They say in particular that the chip is very miniscule and can easily be polished off.

In view of all this, do you still think the price of $70k is unreasonable? If so, what would be more acceptable, $60k or $50K?

Thank you.

ETA: Let's assume that the stone is, worst case scenario, an I Si2 (colours are so difficult to see on the monitor screen; clarity-wise, I've blown up the pics a few times and I can't really see anything alarming other than what's been represented to me by the vendor), what price or price range would you give to this stone, Neil?

I didn't say the price was unreasonable. I don't give pricing information of any kind on stones that I haven't seen and I won't grade a stone from a photograph, especially a photo I didn't personally take. I haven't dug into the database to see what comps are out there and I sort of doubt you're going to find a ton of selection in that range but take a peek if you haven't already done so. The chip is the big wild card here. If a $500 to a cutter will repair it for a minimal loss and what you 'really' have is a SI1/F genuine Asscher then it's a very good price. If $1000 to the cutter loses you a carat in weight and you end up with a poor performing I1/I then you're not looking at such a great deal. Those are tiny details and we're talking about a single grade plus or minus in each category from what the dealer calls it. The difference at the end is HUGE. It's on the order of a factor of 5. I don't know your dealer and have no clue if they are capable graders but 100% of this question revolves on whether or not you should be relying on their grading to the tune of $70,000. That's not about diamonds, it's about the people and only you have the basis to make this call. Personally, I would be second guessing my own mother before I shelled out that kind of money for a rock, but I'm sort of a cynic. Your results may vary. That's why I asked the terms and conditions. Are you really comitting to $70k here or can you buy it, YOU send it into the lab and/or to get it appraised, and get a refund if you're unhappy with the results? That's betting more like $1500 instead of $70,000 (I'm guessing about shipping and insurance fees etc). It's still a chunk, but not nearly so bad.

Bear in mind, by the way, that the jeweler in this case is serving as a commission salesperson working for the SELLER. This is a consignment deal or otherwise it wouldn't have anything to do with what the prior owner wanted. That doesn't make them wrong and there's certainly nothing wrong with that, but it's a definite conflict of interest in terms of making the grading call and evaluating the repair prospects.

 

[dreamer_dachsie]

Pheonix I would not buy such an important piece without more information. Given the cost, I would look into flying an appraiser to the stone if the reverse cannot occurr.

 

[kelpie]

I think there's no reason she couldn't have it sent to an independent appraiser in the same country as the stone. My appraiser took pics of my stone under a microscope and I think that would be really helpful to weigh the impact of chips and inclusions from afar.

 

[Phoenix]

[quote="Phoenix|1305564527|, Neil?

I didn't say the price was unreasonable. I don't give pricing information of any kind on stones that I haven't seen and I won't grade a stone from a photograph, especially a photo I didn't personally take. I haven't dug into the database to see what comps are out there and I sort of doubt you're going to find a ton of selection in that range but take a peek if you haven't already done so. The chip is the big wild card here. If a $500 to a cutter will repair it for a minimal loss and what you 'really' have is a SI1/F genuine Asscher then it's a very good price. If $1000 to the cutter loses you a carat in weight and you end up with a poor performing I1/I then you're not looking at such a great deal. Those are tiny details and we're talking about a single grade plus or minus in each category from what the dealer calls it. The difference at the end is HUGE. It's on the order of a factor of 5. I don't know your dealer and have no clue if they are capable graders but 100% of this question revolves on whether or not you should be relying on their grading to the tune of $70,000. That's not about diamonds, it's about the people and only you have the basis to make this call. Personally, I would be second guessing my own mother before I shelled out that kind of money for a rock, but I'm sort of a cynic. Your results may vary. That's why I asked the terms and conditions. Are you really comitting to $70k here or can you buy it, YOU send it into the lab and/or to get it appraised, and get a refund if you're unhappy with the results? That's betting more like $1500 instead of $70,000 (I'm guessing about shipping and insurance fees etc). It's still a chunk, but not nearly so bad.

Bear in mind, by the way, that the jeweler in this case is serving as a commission salesperson working for the SELLER. This is a consignment deal or otherwise it wouldn't have anything to do with what the prior owner wanted. That doesn't make them wrong and there's certainly nothing wrong with that, but it's a definite conflict of interest in terms of making the grading call and evaluating the repair prospects.[/quote]

Thank you very much, Neil.

I am sorry, I misunderstood about the pricing.

I've slept on this and am having more doubts (but not made up my mind 100% yet), based on everything you've told me, and the fact that I can't see the stone in person (I can in theory, just that my schedule doesn't allow me to). The terms are that all sales are final. I don't mean to sound mysterious in not giving more infor but I didn't / don't want someone else reading PS to snatch it from under my nose. That's happened to me in the past.

I will think about it some more. This is a lot of money and I don't wish to make any mistake.

Thanks again for all yr helpful advice, Neil.

ETA: I've messed up the quotation somehow. So I've put Neil's post in italics. for better clarity.

 

[Phoenix]

Pheonix I would not buy such an important piece without more information. Given the cost, I would look into flying an appraiser to the stone if the reverse cannot occurr.

I'm having more doubts myself. Thanks, Dreamer.

 

[LGK]

Phoenix, I really do wonder if you would be happy, in the long run, with a step cut for your "big'un". Have you considered an antique cut like an Old European Cut, if you really think you don't want a RB? A well cut one would be *plenty* sparkly, and slightly different in looks than a RB. It would, however, be tough to find a high color one in that large a size though...

I would be terrified of risking $70K on an "all sales final" type transaction that you're describing. I mean, the fact that it's antique and looks like a nice cut with a high color is amazing and I totally understand how it would tempt you. But, yikes, without having an appraiser you trust there to give you a good, independent opinion? Wow, scary. The chip is such a difficult variable to assess too... and I really wonder if an SI2 asscher in that size can truly be eye clean...? I mean- an asscher's faceting is such that inclusions stick out more than in a round brilliant cut, plus it's a huge stone.