shape
carat
color
clarity

6ct Old Euro Diamond

gerryj

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 23, 2021
Messages
9
Guys, thank you all for the kind answers!

There's a couple things to say: firstly, I don't know why Pricescope says I'm in the UK, since I'm actually from Europe!

For the diamond, what bothers me about all the work that has to be done is that all of the suggestions you gave me require in a way or another the shipping of the stone from here to the US
I would trust an insured shipping (but also, how can I insure it properly without a value refernce?), but my mother, who in fact is the heir of the diamond, is too scared of the risk of loss or theft

Also, I wanted to get it graded for quite some time, but the reputable centers (GIA, HRD, IGI) are all based in Antwerp
I could take a trip there and deliver the stone by hand, can I do so even if it has no prior grading?
And since I want to sell it, would it affect the price that much if I gave it as is with the chip? This would only be in order to avoid problems witht the polishing, which could be done by the buyer

I know it's a beautiful stone and that it has a lot of history behind it, but I feel like now it is just... a stone
In fact, as I mentioned before, my mother only wore it at her wedding, and my grandma never used it (but my mother said she loved it)
It would make sense to keep it if one were to get the most out of it, and by that I mean wearing it, living it!
As of now, it really has just been an untouchable gem, closed in a box and rarely opened just to admire its beauty... all that goes beyond the point of keeping it!
 

dk168

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jul 7, 2013
Messages
8,916
I would snap the stone up in a heart beat if I had 20k GBP or USD to spare, polish out the chip and keep it as an OEC.

The colour is warm, however it is part of the charm of an old cut stone IMHO.

DK :love:
 

gregchang35

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Messages
3,209
if antwerp is within driving distance, have it graded by GIA, as compared to the other labs. GIA and AGS are highly reputable and most buyers would want to see a certificate/ lab report of some sort. Most lay ppl would understand an GIA ireport is a good report to have. it gives a really good base. HOWever, i am not sure who would be more reputable for an old cut stone.

once you have the report from GIA, you can then start researching the value of the diamond. Then reach out to the vendors in USA ,as others have stated, the market for old cuts is bigger in USA than anywhere else, or maybe i have been in PS land for too long! lOLOL. The US vendors will help you out with shipping to the USA, and have it consigned. insurance will cost a bit. You can then ask them to polish the chip and have it regraded.

Yes, a chip will make a difference to the value on a diamond.
similar to a chip/dent in a vintage BMW would be less than a pristine vintage BMW.

A chip in a vintage OMEGA/ ROLEX is a completely different story, alot of collectors love a beat up Omega / rolexes and they do attract a higher premium.

are there any cutters in Europe? would they polish most of it out? i do not think they would be able to polish it out completely without losing too much weight and size... though some ppl like wonky diamonds..


agree with the others, though, do not get it recut to a modern brilliant. I love old cuts!!!!

Do take the time with this process, as this is a HUGE diamond, and you would not want to get hoodwinked into $20k GBP/ euros. Perhaps, before you do get hoodwinked, tell me, and i will fly over to europe and gladly take this stone off you.
 

YadaYadaYada

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Feb 2, 2016
Messages
8,605
This is an awesome diamond, yes lower color but wow, a six carat old cut is a treasure. You have gotten great advice, don’t listen to the jeweler he is either lowballing you or has no idea the value of this old cut because he can’t see past the color and/or chip.
 

yssie

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Aug 14, 2009
Messages
22,619
It may be possible to polish the chip out with minimal change to the overall faceting, to address the concern that @LightBright raised. But that is a question no one here can answer - the stone will need to be inspected by an expert.

You lose nothing by contacting the suggested vendors and learning what the sales process would be with them - you can always decide not to go forward. Information can only be helpful.

The stone is not an I. Don't recut into an RB. Don’t go back to that jeweller. Echoing previous posters.
 

Mreader

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Aug 14, 2018
Messages
2,080
Many vendors will give you an insured label to send. That way you yourself would not have to worry about sending it yourself and purchasing the insurance to do so. At the very least I would contact Old World diamonds just to see what they say. Where is the other stone by the way?
 

gerryj

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 23, 2021
Messages
9
Many vendors will give you an insured label to send. That way you yourself would not have to worry about sending it yourself and purchasing the insurance to do so. At the very least I would contact Old World diamonds just to see what they say. Where is the other stone by the way?

I think I will try to do so!

I'll keep you guys updated on what they tell me!

The other diamond is still in the family, but it does not belong to very close relatives
It is also encased on a ring (it should be almost identical)

I just wrote an email to both Jewels by Grace and Old World Diamonds, once they reply I'll let you know!
 
Last edited:

LightBright

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Mar 11, 2013
Messages
1,003
I think I will try to do so!

I'll keep you guys updated on what they tell me!

The other diamond is still in the family, but it does not belong to very close relatives
It is also encased on a ring (it should be almost identical)

I just wrote an email to both Jewels by Grace and Old World Diamonds, once they reply I'll let you know!

Hi, you might also want to contact LoveAffairDiamonds (Erica). I don’t know whether she is back in business or not, but Erica is a real expert and purist with decades of experience looking at and selling old cut diamonds. I believe she certifies stones with AGS and has an opinion about why. Please know that GIA is considered the “gold standard” on color grading, but I don’t know anything else— she would. Erica might be able to give you some sense of direction towards getting your stone valued and sold. She is on Instagram under the shop name I mentioned previously.
 
Last edited:

diamondseeker2006

Super_Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jan 11, 2006
Messages
57,727
I hope you can get some references in Antwerp if you'd have to travel there to send it to GIA. The problem with grading it now is that it is worth less with that big chip than if it had already been rehabbed. I wouldn't contact jewelry sellers in the US. Old World Diamonds is an antique diamond supplier and has more experience with recutting and maybe can even help you connect with a reliable source in Europe. I am in agreement that unless you fly to take the stone yourself, it is doubtful a vendor here would insure it for you to ship here unless you were actually selling it to them.
 

gregchang35

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Messages
3,209
i just realised that i have worked with Langermans and they are in Antwerp!

Am sure they would know someone and point you in the right direction?
i saw an insta post about their cutter they have a 20yr r/ship with.. not all cutters are the same etc...
 

caolsen

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Feb 21, 2010
Messages
867
Agree, with folks directing you to a lab in Antwerp - if you can get to Holland, do it. Know it’s very hard right now with COVID, but the premium you’ll get with grading and getting this stone into the right hands is worth. It’s a rock, but a valuable one, don’t short yourself thousands of Euros for quick and easy.

The shipping thing is scary at first blush, but it’s how diamonds get moved every day, all over the world. Find a lab or cutter you like, first, and sort out the details from there.
 

gregchang35

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Messages
3,209
Try an auction house to sell?
They tend to take a big commission.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
8,955
Hello!!

Thank you again for your kind suggestions :)

And yes, I don't think I will talk again with that jeweler, that's for sure

If you want to share the reddit pictures please do so!
(also, those were also shot by me but just under a bad light!)
Talk to a real appraiser who can actually evaluate the stone. It's a big deal. Color is important. Clarity is important. The difference between cutting to a round brilliant, repairing it as a euro, and selling it as is is important.
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
8,955
The reason for pointing you towards lab grading, as it is, is simple. You’re calling it an I/VS1. It’s possible it’s really an O-P. That’s 6 grades. SIX! 9 if we toss in a few possible clarity issues. That VS1 grade may be true but it's completely unsupported and it came from the same source as the I color and the 20k price estimate. Lab fees are going to be in the $600 range, plus whatever transportation you need. You do the math. I guarantee that a buyer who is estimating based on their own grading is going to estimate on the low side. If they are tossing between an J and a K, they’ll go with K. Maybe L. A lab grading from a credible lab completely ends this conversation. Your buyer may not like your price, or you may not like theirs, but at least the grading question has been answered.

The decisions about recutting to a modern stone, repairing what you have, or selling it as it is are similar. You NEED expert advice. Advice that comes from actual inspection of the stone, actually an understanding the market, and understanding your objectives. I’m less inclined to agree with the above that 20k is crazy low as to point out that the price of a VSI-I and a broken I1-M differ by at least a factor of 5. This is information you don’t have and that you absolutely NEED to proceed here.
 

737liz

Brilliant_Rock
Premium
Joined
Oct 18, 2015
Messages
591
Hello @gerryj

if you are nervous about sending, there are some other European labs that are ok. Obviously they are less common than HRD or GIA, but better than nothing and just as reliable in terms of grading. Some may argue with me, but in Europe, they are respected labs.

Not sure where you are, but these might be close enough to drive to.

switzerland:
Gubelin in Lucerne
and
Ssef in Basel

Germany:
Diamant Pruflabor in idar oberstein


At this point, getting a proper appraisal ( not diamond grading report) would be good for your personal insurance. This can easily be done in your home city. The appraisal should not be from a jeweler or gold purchasing shop etc. Better to get the appraisal done by a diamond dealer (who does not buy diamonds from the public) or standalone professional appraiser. Be sure to check what kind of appraisals are accepted by your insurance company first.

In Europe, a lot of people/places charge you a percentage of the value of the item. Do NOT use them. It would be too expensive. Use a flat fee service.

Your stone has more value as an old cut. Keep it safe and explore your options.

I may have echoed some advice already mentioned. Sorry for the repetition! Good luck!
 

MollyMalone

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 2, 2013
Messages
3,261
Sounds as if you personally dropping off-picking up the diamond at a lab would alleviate your mother's anxiety about sending the diamond overseas? If so, a couple of FYIs:
GIA Antwerp
* You can make in-person drop-offs and pick-ups at GIA Antwerp, provided you first make an appointment:

* But scroll down that page to the Preparing Your Shipment section, and you'll see that GIA Antwerp will accept only "deep boiled" loose, polished diamonds. Deep boiling (in acid) is definitely not a do-it-yourself project for you at home or something your local jeweler will perform, but perhaps the local jeweler can arrange for that.

* More importantly for you, however, it doesn't look as if GIA Antwerp grades diamonds that are 4 carats or more:

HRD Antwerp
* Also will accept only diamonds that have been boiled. See section 4. Conditions precedent on this page:
I remember a previous poster here 4-5 years ago saying that HRD informed him they mean freshly boiled; it's not enough that the diamond was boiled at some previous point. Antwerp does have a fair number of boiling facilities, but the websites/other business info suggest that they deal with those "in the trade," not consumers like us.​

Gubelin in Lucerne
* Does offer in-person drop-offs and pick-ups. Rush service -- analysis completed within 2 working days -- will cost 300 Swiss Francs, but you'd want to email or call them before you book a hotel room since they may not always be able to do the turn-around that quickly.

* Also, Gubelin expects that you have insured the stone for while it's in their possession (and in transit to-from the lab if using a shipping service). They do offer insurance for the time it's n their possession (although they apparently don't guarantee that they will insure every stone they receive) for an additional fee. More info about that upon request.


SSEF in Basel
* Does not accept in-person drop-offs and pick-ups.
* Here, the Express service is 1-1/2 times the usual cost of report; grading is done within 3 business days; prior appointment required.

* You must either ship the stone with proof of full insurance -- or purchase insurance coverage via SSEF for the time the stone is in their possession.

* Free "Ferrari Shuttle" service, until December 31, for shipping stones from-back certain locations around the world, but this looks to be for those in the trade. But there's no downside to calling for clarification/more information about that:
https://www.ssef.ch/special-conditions-on-ssef-ferrari-shuttles/

But as you've previously noted, without an appraisal, you have no idea of value, no proof to offer should you have to file an insurance claim if tragedy struck and the stone was lost or damaged. :(sad Perhaps if you share what country you're in, what city is closest to you, some PSers might be able to offer suggestions re an appraiser (suggest that you start a separate thread for that purpose so the reason for your query is clear from the subject title).
 

gerryj

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 23, 2021
Messages
9
Sounds as if you personally dropping off-picking up the diamond at a lab would alleviate your mother's anxiety about sending the diamond overseas? If so, a couple of FYIs:
GIA Antwerp
* You can make in-person drop-offs and pick-ups at GIA Antwerp, provided you first make an appointment:

* But scroll down that page to the Preparing Your Shipment section, and you'll see that GIA Antwerp will accept only "deep boiled" loose, polished diamonds. Deep boiling (in acid) is definitely not a do-it-yourself project for you at home or something your local jeweler will perform, but perhaps the local jeweler can arrange for that.

* More importantly for you, however, it doesn't look as if GIA Antwerp grades diamonds that are 4 carats or more:

HRD Antwerp
* Also will accept only diamonds that have been boiled. See section 4. Conditions precedent on this page:
I remember a previous poster here 4-5 years ago saying that HRD informed him they mean freshly boiled; it's not enough that the diamond was boiled at some previous point. Antwerp does have a fair number of boiling facilities, but the websites/other business info suggest that they deal with those "in the trade," not consumers like us.​

Gubelin in Lucerne
* Does offer in-person drop-offs and pick-ups. Rush service -- analysis completed within 2 working days -- will cost 300 Swiss Francs, but you'd want to email or call them before you book a hotel room since they may not always be able to do the turn-around that quickly.

* Also, Gubelin expects that you have insured the stone for while it's in their possession (and in transit to-from the lab if using a shipping service). They do offer insurance for the time it's n their possession (although they apparently don't guarantee that they will insure every stone they receive) for an additional fee. More info about that upon request.


SSEF in Basel
* Does not accept in-person drop-offs and pick-ups.
* Here, the Express service is 1-1/2 times the usual cost of report; grading is done within 3 business days; prior appointment required.

* You must either ship the stone with proof of full insurance -- or purchase insurance coverage via SSEF for the time the stone is in their possession.

* Free "Ferrari Shuttle" service, until December 31, for shipping stones from-back certain locations around the world, but this looks to be for those in the trade. But there's no downside to calling for clarification/more information about that:
https://www.ssef.ch/special-conditions-on-ssef-ferrari-shuttles/

But as you've previously noted, without an appraisal, you have no idea of value, no proof to offer should you have to file an insurance claim if tragedy struck and the stone was lost or damaged. :(sad Perhaps if you share what country you're in, what city is closest to you, some PSers might be able to offer suggestions re an appraiser (suggest that you start a separate thread for that purpose so the reason for your query is clear from the subject title).

MollyMalone, thank you so much for all the info!

If it can help, I am close Milan, Italy

I also wanted to update you all on both Jewels By Grace and Old World Diamond's answers

Here is what OWD wrote:

"Sorry for the delay. I was out of the office for a few days.

If you would like to get a solid quote to sell your stone, we would need to see it in person. We make the shipping process
very simple, quick and safe. We can email you a prepaid fully insured overnight label when you're ready.

Once we have your diamond, we will offer you a quote and if you accept, the money will be in your account the very same day.

If you decide to have your diamond returned to you, we will ship it back overnight fully insured.

Please let me know if you have any questions.

Best,
Adam"

And here is what JBG wrote:

"
Its a pleasure to hear from you!

So I think the stone is beautiful and obviously a large size.

The 2 chips I see, though, are a problem. It would cost quite a hefty sum to get these fixed,and it would also change the overall shape of the stone. The nicks are pretty deep, hence the change in the shape.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news!

Cheers,
Grace L.
Ring Leader"


I don't know what the second chip Grace wrote about would be, but other than this nothing much has changed in what I know about this diamond... still, there was only so much they could tell me of course!

Also, OWD wrote about a "fully insured overnight shipping label", but how can you insure something which you don't know the value of?
 

gerryj

Rough_Rock
Joined
Jun 23, 2021
Messages
9
@denverappraiser, @737liz, thank you too guys!

It's hard to make the right choices and choose the right people/places to do this kind of work since I'm the farthest thing from an expert in this field... I'm afraid to make bad decisions and everything seems way out of my capacities right now
 

denverappraiser

Ideal_Rock
Trade
Joined
Jul 21, 2004
Messages
8,955
Try this guy as a place to start. I don't know him personally, but I have friends who speak highly of him. A phone call may be the way to start.

 

DejaWiz

Brilliant_Rock
Joined
Apr 23, 2021
Messages
520
@denverappraiser, @737liz, thank you too guys!

It's hard to make the right choices and choose the right people/places to do this kind of work since I'm the farthest thing from an expert in this field... I'm afraid to make bad decisions and everything seems way out of my capacities right now


Hopefully someone here can vouch for this appraiser in Genova, which is about a two to two-and-a-half hour drive from Milan:


I would think any worthwhile independent appraiser could (and would) give you an as-is value, as well as estimated value range once the chip(s) is/are polished out and it has been graded by a reputable lab.

Question for others that are more seasoned in the arena of vintage diamonds: would paying the lab the extra fee for inscribing the girdle be worth it, or is that considered some form of defacement to an antique/vintage gemstone and end up inhibiting the desirability and value?


[EDIT]
holy moly...Neil mentioned the exact same appraiser while I was composing this very post! Well, that answers that! :)
 
Last edited:

Tourmaline

Ideal_Rock
Premium
Joined
Nov 17, 2013
Messages
2,161
Adam has a network of people including cutters who could rehab the stone. It doesn’t have to be made perfect and smaller, it would have an area that was lower in diameter (plenty of old cut stones have characteristics like this). Adam has a blanket insurance policy that covers all shipments. Value doesn’t even have to be declared, as far as I know. If it does, I’m sure he would aim high. He doesn’t pay insurance cost per shipment.

I would strongly recommend sending it to Adam.
 

Dizzie

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 23, 2012
Messages
486
Adam has a network of people including cutters who could rehab the stone. It doesn’t have to be made perfect and smaller, it would have an area that was lower in diameter (plenty of old cut stones have characteristics like this). Adam has a blanket insurance policy that covers all shipments. Value doesn’t even have to be declared, as far as I know. If it does, I’m sure he would aim high. He doesn’t pay insurance cost per shipment.

I would strongly recommend sending it to Adam.

OP, if you decide to send the stone to Adam, please make sure to get yourself informed about the customs regulations applicable in such case in your country.

You will most likely need a special outbound customs clearance procedure when shipping diamond out in order to avoid having to pay customs charges / VAT (which sum up to nearly 25% of the value of the item) if the diamond happen to be sent back to you
 

Dizzie

Shiny_Rock
Premium
Joined
Jun 23, 2012
Messages
486
Hello @gerryj

if you are nervous about sending, there are some other European labs that are ok. Obviously they are less common than HRD or GIA, but better than nothing and just as reliable in terms of grading. Some may argue with me, but in Europe, they are respected labs.

Not sure where you are, but these might be close enough to drive to.

switzerland:
Gubelin in Lucerne
and
Ssef in Basel

Germany:
Diamant Pruflabor in idar oberstein


At this point, getting a proper appraisal ( not diamond grading report) would be good for your personal insurance. This can easily be done in your home city. The appraisal should not be from a jeweler or gold purchasing shop etc. Better to get the appraisal done by a diamond dealer (who does not buy diamonds from the public) or standalone professional appraiser. Be sure to check what kind of appraisals are accepted by your insurance company first.

In Europe, a lot of people/places charge you a percentage of the value of the item. Do NOT use them. It would be too expensive. Use a flat fee service.

Your stone has more value as an old cut. Keep it safe and explore your options.

I may have echoed some advice already mentioned. Sorry for the repetition! Good luck!

Another voice for using DPL in Germany. They are typically strict enough in their grading to be the best proxy for understanding potential GIA grade ( if due to some reason it is not possible to ship to GIA). Besides they are highly respected in European markets (though completely unknown in US)
 

gregchang35

Ideal_Rock
Joined
Sep 11, 2012
Messages
3,209
I hope you don’t mind, I did ask on your behalf to Langerman ( showed them the pictures you provided), and they mentioned that the chip is deep and to make it smooth and round again the stone would lose about 1 ct. yikes!
They didn’t tell me the price to do it.

But, they would not buy the stone and suggest an auction house; where commissions are high.

You have also been given some great advice and connections above already.

Good luck with process.
So exciting.
 
Be a part of the community It's free, join today!
    Buying or Selling Pre-Loved Jewelry
    Buying or Selling Pre-Loved Jewelry
    Jewels of the Week: July 2021
    Jewels of the Week: July 2021
    Throwback Thursdays: July 2021
    Throwback Thursdays: July 2021

Holloway Cut Advisor



Top