60/60 vs ACA

[CrazyCat]

I am a novice and kept reading that a larger table/shallower crown would produce less fire then a super ideal and I kept wondering by how much? I couldn't find a video for this but then got the idea to check WF's Premium Select collection if they had one and they did to compare. So I hope this helps anyone else that was wondering the same thing. By my novice eyes, I can't see a difference

ACA - https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-4113556.htm
60/60 Premium Select - https://www.whiteflash.com/loose-diamonds/round-cut-loose-diamond-3905786.htm

ACA 1.683 H SI1
Depth % 61.8
Table % 56.2
Crown Angle 34.8
Star % 52.0
Pavilion Angle 40.7
Crown % 15.3
Lower Girdle % 76.0

Premium Select 1.70 G SI1
Depth % 60.6
Table % 60.0
Crown Angle 33.5
Star % 50.0
Pavilion Angle 41.0
Crown % 13.5
Lower Girdle % 75.0

 

[Snowdrop13]

How about asking Whiteflash to send some photos or video of the 2 side by side? I’m sure they would do that for you. If you’re seriously considering these diamonds I’d also check that the PS clarity is eye clean enough for you.

 

[whatamilookingat]

Thank you for sharing this. I've tried to find videos and pictures regarding these types of stones for a while, but wasn't successful. I was curious about what less fire actually looked like in a well cut 60/60 compared to an ideal. Like you, I'm not sure that I see a difference. Maybe I see a little more fire in the super ideal, but that may be in my mind because I know which stone it is. I don't have nearly enough experience to really understand what I'm looking at. I've read that whiteflash's setup showcases the sparkle in their videos, so possibly the difference would be more noticeable in person?

 

[MMtwo]

I had a thread on this. I bought a beautiful 1 carat from Ritani that scored will on HCA. It had a lovely brightness edge to edge. It was truly beautiful but the fire was a big disappointment. My other er is an old cushion with a 53% table. A wonky wild-card of a diamond, not well cut but a colored light show at Lowes .

My first trip to Lowes with the new ring was pretty disheartening. While it was the prettiest diamond I have seen under office lights, the colored light show was just not happening. I returned the ring. I could sometimes bet small colored flashes, but couldnt photograph them well (see white flashes in video). A direct sunlight video gave me a few colored flashes, but was underwhelming.
You may love the look. If lack of colored fire bothers you, look for a smaller table.

 

[OoohShiny]

I think Jon/Rhino may have done a comparison video on the Good Old Gold youtube channel or as mentioned, asking WF to do a side-by-side video could be an idea!

 

[CrazyCat]

Thanks moneymeister for the real world experience on the two styles! I don't recall seeing many 53% tables when I was looking for a diamond, that seems to be on small end of the super ideal? I wonder if fire and table correspond linearly in this range or if maybe there's some kind of exponential or non-linear relationship. That would be interesting to know but it seems like fire is a hard thing to measure

I actually already have a ring on order, it has a 57.7% table per AGS so it's on the upper end of the super ideal range? The diamond is not super ideal though, I bought from James Allen and the CG ASET and ideal scope looked very nice for it in my opinion. I just wanted to share with good intentions to hopefully help others, but if I am wrong/misguided please feel free to correct me!

For me personally I think I put more weight on the value aspect of things, I like to buy things on sale I've seen a lot of car comparisons with diamonds so here is my spin on it. Say a super ideal is a custom ordered modded up BMW with upgraded internals and body kit that you pay full price on, then a normal ideal would be just a normal BMW off the dealer lot that you can potentially get a good deal on. For me, I would go the latter. So although I window shopped at WF a lot, I kept going in my treasure hunt at other vendors. For this reason I would not want to ask them for a comparison as I don't have strong intention of buying from them, I would personally feel bad doing that

I have watched a lot of Good Old Gold's videos on Youtube too among others. Most of the comparisons usually seemed to be between a super ideal and some other diamond with noticeable leakage in the ASET or idealscope. I really wanted to see a comparison between a non-super ideal diamond with a larger table and no leakage in the ASET/idealscope vs a super ideal. Maybe I am recalling incorrectly or missed the video though, that is certainly a possibility as well

 

[OoohShiny]

If you're looking to windowshop and find some bargains, it is worth noting that bargains are generally hard to find (unless purchasing secondhand) but the diamond inventory search bar at the top of the forum is an excellent place to start - use the Filters to look for HCA scores of 'excellent' only, as that will weed out diamonds with angles that should work well together

 

[AV_]

I might trust the HCA Fire score as a good rule of thumb guess - more than pictures.

Then, I wonder if this kind of shots www could show the 'white light' versus 'fire' qualities of a diamond; there be some parameters to play with, etc.

_

Nb. I like both breeds - the bright & the fiery, & might quibble with the notion that it is best to balance [muddle!] them; what I am thinking of are round briliants with much shorter lower girdle facets than the modern, and extreme proportions...

@Texas Leaguer

 

[MMtwo]

Thanks moneymeister for the real world experience on the two styles! I don't recall seeing many 53% tables when I was looking for a diamond, that seems to be on small end of the super ideal? I wonder if fire and table correspond linearly in this range or if maybe there's some kind of exponential or non-linear relationship. That would be interesting to know but it seems like fire is a hard thing to measure

I actually already have a ring on order, it has a 57.7% table per AGS so it's on the upper end of the super ideal range? The diamond is not super ideal though, I bought from James Allen and the CG ASET and ideal scope looked very nice for it in my opinion. I just wanted to share with good intentions to hopefully help others, but if I am wrong/misguided please feel free to correct me!

For me personally I think I put more weight on the value aspect of things, I like to buy things on sale I've seen a lot of car comparisons with diamonds so here is my spin on it. Say a super ideal is a custom ordered modded up BMW with upgraded internals and body kit that you pay full price on, then a normal ideal would be just a normal BMW off the dealer lot that you can potentially get a good deal on. For me, I would go the latter. So although I window shopped at WF a lot, I kept going in my treasure hunt at other vendors. For this reason I would not want to ask them for a comparison as I don't have strong intention of buying from them, I would personally feel bad doing that

I have watched a lot of Good Old Gold's videos on Youtube too among others. Most of the comparisons usually seemed to be between a super ideal and some other diamond with noticeable leakage in the ASET or idealscope. I really wanted to see a comparison between a non-super ideal diamond with a larger table and no leakage in the ASET/idealscope vs a super ideal. Maybe I am recalling incorrectly or missed the video though, that is certainly a possibility as well

Hey Crazycat,
So about those tables. You're right! Table size effects dispersion (fire).
These will explain fire and brilliance by table size better than I can.
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-table-size

Even more...
https://www.pricescope.com/wiki/diamonds/diamond-brilliance-fire-scintillation

Another good write up on table size/fire/cut grades.
https://www.gemsociety.org/article/diamond-cuts/

That old cut with a 52% table (oops, I was off the mark a little) is it's own beast and has nothing to do with ideal cuts. This cushion is a wildcard of angles. As a matter of fact, my old cut's GIA report:
https://www.gia.edu/report-check?reportno=6157724813&s=1570296384560
Heh.
I still love it. It has natural "rind" left on all the edges of the diamond, they just bruted the diamond in the shape it grew. Back then they did not have diamond saws. Here is a picture of it's face.

I only wish I had a low light video where you could watch it "do it's thing".
I tried:

My cat is asking for lunch, please excuse the background noise.

 

[MMtwo]

If you're looking to windowshop and find some bargains, it is worth noting that bargains are generally hard to find (unless purchasing secondhand) but the diamond inventory search bar at the top of the forum is an excellent place to start - use the Filters to look for HCA scores of 'excellent' only, as that will weed out diamonds with angles that should work well together

This is EXCELLENT advice and the best way to find a great diamond without being at a super-ideal price point.

 

[CrazyCat]

Yup I understand the reasoning why smaller table = more fire (all others being equal). I just wondered by how much and if it would be really noticeable or one of those things where you have to scrutinize them side by side to see the difference.

Thanks for all the advices! I already made a purchase for a ring though. Some others on PriceScope have already helped me select it! It has a 33.5deg crown and 57.7% table so yes from what I've read and people said is that it will have less fire and more brilliance. I didn't think too much of it but then it later made me wonder the questions above. It is an AGS000 with a nice CG ASET and nice ideal scope so I tried to find a similar comparison, hence starting the thread

Also sorry so I guess with bargain/value, I mainly meant a well performing diamond without the name brand/signature line mark up. I got this one for $10,210 which seems like a really good value to me!

 

[OoohShiny]

Yup I understand the reasoning why smaller table = more fire (all others being equal). I just wondered by how much and if it would be really noticeable or one of those things where you have to scrutinize them side by side to see the difference.

Serg has been working to quantify a number of difficult to measure aspects of diamonds, including fire, so do have a look at his Cutwise site!

 

[AV_]

The entire play of light changes between the versions of cut, not just fire. IMHO 57.7 table is not large & within the H&A range (eg. www) where differences are subtle.